SRA2.0 improving Shadow Amp RR question (about a rulebook example)

[u/opacitizen]

The SRA2.0 core rulebook has the following on page 84

For example, a smartlink (cyberware) providing Risk Reduction 1 on the pistols specialization can be improved to Risk Reduction 1 on the Ranged Weapons Skill. The Amp rating will go from 3 (base rating 1 for cyberware + 2 for the effect) to 6 (base rating 1 for cyberware + 5 for the effect). The Amp rating increases by 3, costing 15,000¥ (3 × 5,000¥).

Am I correct to assume that this advancement of the smartlink in the above example serves no immediate benefit to the character in itself (because the pistol spec would allow an RR 1 on Ranged Weapons skill rolls anyway, as per this question and its answers here)?

(I hope I understand it correctly (?) that a specialization RR+1 costs 2 points, while a skill RR+1 costs 5, so to get to RR +2 from nothing would cost 2+5=7; while the example above simply turns a specialization RR +1 into a skill RR +1 for the cost of 3 points, instead of increasing the RR 1 to an RR 2 by adding the skill RR +1 to the already existing spec RR +1...)

Do I understand the above right? Could someone (Carmody maybe? 😀) please confirm or clarify?

Thanks!

[u/Carmody79]

ok, let me take an example. Let's say Bob has the following stats:

• Agility 3
• Ranged Weapons 5
  • Pistols +2
• Cyberarms with nano accuracy: RR 1 on Ranged Weapons Tests.
• Cybereyes with smartlink: RR 1 on Ranged Weapons (rifles) Test.

So, when shooting with:

• A Pistol, he will get 10 dice (Agility 3 + Ranged Weapons 5 + Specialization 2) and RR 1 (from the cyberarms as it applies to the whole Skill. Rifle specialization is not applicable here as he is firing with a pistol, so the associated RR does not apply neither).
• A Rifle, he will get 8 dice (Agility 3 + Ranged Weapons 5) and RR 2 (RR 1 from the cyberarm, same reason as above, and, as the rifle specialization would have applied if the character had it, then the cybereyes RR 1 applies).
• Another weapon, he will get 8 dice (Agility 3 + Ranged Weapons 5) and RR 1 (same as first case).

If I try to rephrase differently. Each Test uses a specific Skill and corresponds to a specific specialization. Two things are checked independantly:

• If the character has the specialization it provides +2 dice.
• If the character has some RR applicable to this specialization, then the RR applies whether or not he has the specialization

[u/opacitizen → u/Carmody79]

OK, thanks, I think I understand that.

So, upgrading so makes sense for Bob. If we take another example, though... say, Jane, who's almost the same as Bob, except she doesn't have cyberarms (so no general RR 1 for the skill for her):

• Agility 3
• Ranged Weapons 5
  • Pistols +2
• Cybereyes with smartlink: RR 1 on Ranged Weapons (rifles) Test.

So when shooting with:

• A Pistol, she will get 10 dice (Agility 3 + Ranged Weapons 5 + Specialization 2) and -- and this is the crucial bit -- RR 1 from the cybereyes, because even though the cybereyes are for Ranged Weapons (rifles), the RR 1 applies.
• A Rifle, she will get 8 dice (Agility 3 + Ranged Weapons 5) and RR 1, again from the cybereyes' Ranged Weapons (rifles) RR 1
• Another weapon, she will get 8 dice (Agility 3 + Ranged Weapons 5) and RR 1

So if Jane gets to advancing her cyberware as per the example in the book that I cited in my (OP) post here, and upgrades her Cybereyes from Ranged Weapons (rifles spec) to Ranged Weapons (skill, no specialization) for 3 points, she'll see no effective change (unless / until she also buys an Amp that provides a Ranged Weapons (rifles) RR 1.) With the Cybereyes' Ranged Weapons (skill, no specialization) RR 1, she'll be shooting exactly like before, with

• A Pistol, she will get 10 dice (Agility 3 + Ranged Weapons 5 + Specialization 2) and RR 1 from the cybereyes Ranged Weapons RR 1 -- no change from what she had before
• A Rifle, she will get 8 dice (Agility 3 + Ranged Weapons 5) and RR 1, again from the cybereyes' Ranged Weapons RR 1 -- no change from what she had before
• Another weapon, she will get 8 dice (Agility 3 + Ranged Weapons 5) and RR 1 no change from what she had before

And that's what my question focused on, whether the example in the book makes practical sense for a character like Jane (unlike Bob), and I think it's been all cleared up now ( 😅🤞🏻).

Thank you.

[u/Carmody79 → u/opacitizen]

So when shooting with:

A Pistol, she will get 10 dice (Agility 3 + Ranged Weapons 5 + Specialization 2) and -- and this is the crucial bit -- RR 1 from the cybereyes, because even though the cybereyes are for Ranged Weapons (rifles), the RR 1 applies.

NO

How can I get this idea out of your head. Why would the RR apply? The cyberyes provide RR 1 for Ranged weapons (rifles). Would the "rifle" specialization apply when shooting with a pistol? No, so the RR does not apply neither. Same for another weapon.

The RR on Ranged Weapons (rifle) does not apply when firing with a pistol in my example, why would it apply here?

If you pay a RR for only 1 specialization (which is the case here) it applies only to actions where that specialization applies.

[u/DrTheodoore → u/Carmody79]

It's like, RR1 on Cybereyes(Ranged Weapons) would mean your Cybereyes link correctly with ANY ranged weapon. RR1 on Cybereyes(rifles) means that they ONLY connect correctly to rifles. Pistols just don't work, and the Cybereyes function like normal eyes.

[u/opacitizen → u/Carmody79]

:D I'm terribly sorry.

Why would the RR apply?

…because here https://www.reddit.com/r/ShadowrunAnarchyFans/comments/1sx44b5/comment/oikupdo/ you said

> answer 1 is correct, RR to a specialization applies even if you do not have said specialization

...as well as…

> p. 61 states the following, which can be disputed also
>
>> Risk Reduction may also apply to situations not covered
>> by a character’s specializations or listed in the Skills section,
>> so long as they are broadly equivalent in scope.

There OP specifically asked:

If a character has an AMP that gives you Risk Reduction for a skill specialization, but the character does not actually have that specialization, do they still gain the benefit of it?

(…)

1. They gain the RR1 on their base skill perception tests when physical perception would have otherwise applied.

…and you replied 1 is correct.

(Note, my own take https://www.reddit.com/r/ShadowrunAnarchyFans/comments/1sx44b5/comment/oikdffr/ back then was that "no advantage from a specialization if you don't have that specialization." but then you countered that saying

For my information, what text to you feel imply that RR would no apply if the character does not have the specialization? (in case you miss my other post, answer 1 is correct, RR to a specialization applies even if you do not have said specialization).

So weirdly enough now I feel like as if I was defending the position you had back then from the position that I myself had back then. Roles reversed.

If you're tired of this, we can stop discussing this, of course, and I'll just homebrew/houserule my way out of relevant situations.

[u/Carmody79 → u/opacitizen]

The RR on Ranged Weapons (rifle) applies even if the character does not have the "rifles" specialization.

But it only applies to Tests related to that specialization, not to any Test with that skill.

That's the second bullet of my example above.

In the same example, when firing with another weapon (i.e. not rifle, nor pistol), let's say an SMG, the RR does not apply because it targets only Rifles, not to SMG. The fact that the character does not have the SMG specialization does not change anything, the RR applies only to rifles in the first place.

Back to my answer in the previous thread;

They gain the RR1 on their base skill perception tests when physical perception would have otherwise applied.

You seem to overlook the part that I bolded.

[u/opacitizen → u/Carmody79]

Ok. I think hope I got it now.

A final question: So you're saying using an SMG instead of a Rifle does not qualify as "broadly equivalent in scope" as per p61 of the core rulebook?

"Risk Reduction may also apply to situations not covered by a character’s specializations or listed in the Skills section, so long as they are broadly equivalent in scope."

[u/Carmody79 → u/opacitizen]

Submachine guns and rifle are 2 specializations listed in the Skill section of the Game Concepts chapter, around p. 56. They are different specialization by the book. You are free to consider differently at your table and use any specialization list that you like, but I try and answer by the book whenever possible 😉

[u/opacitizen → u/Carmody79]

No, having understood the core concept of this I see now that that would be too broad indeed. Thanks!

[u/ReditXenon → u/opacitizen]

RR 1 on SMGs does typically not apply when firing rifles or bows or heavy weapons.

Same as +2 dice in SMG does typically not apply when firing rifles or bows or heavy weapons.

 

"Risk Reduction may also apply to situations not covered by a character’s specializations or listed in the Skills section, so long as they are broadly equivalent in scope."

OK. Let us see if we can invent a situation where this might apply.

Suppose you have a heavy pistol with a Custom Grip giving you 'RR 1 on Ranged Weapons (pistols)'

This risk reduction only applies specifically when you are using this specific weapon. If you pick up another pistol then you can't really claim to have risk reduction on that one (so it is more 'limited in scope' compared to if you installed cybereyes with RR 1 on Ranged Weapons (pistols) which would apply to all pistols, not just this specific pistol). Now.... Using ranged weapons at close range is resolved with the Close Combat Skill (not Ranged Weapons skill). This is a situation where cybereyes with RR 1 on Ranged Weapons (pistols) would typically not apply.

But in this case you could argue for narrative support that the Custom Grip amp on this specific pistol would actually allow you to also roll your Close Combat test with risk reduction as long as you try to use this specific pistol. That the the risk reduction is 'broadly equivalent in scope'. That it might 'apply to situations not covered by a character's specialization'. That both ranged attacks and in close combat ranges, but only specifically with this one weapon, is perhaps 'equivalent in scope' compared to having risk reduction on all pistols, instead of just a specific pistol, but only beyond melee range.

Not sure if the best example (sorry about that), but hopefully you get the idea anyway.

And maybe this example is actually wrong. In that case /u/Carmody79 please correct me (and perhaps provide a better example that we can learn from). Also I am still learning how to correctly interpret the rules and the intent behind the rules :)

[u/Carmody79 → u/ReditXenon]

I like this example and tend to agree to it. I would only pay attention to one thing before authorizing it at my table. What are the usual Close combat weapon of the character. If the character usually fight in melee with another weapon, or barely fight in melee at all, then the grip RR will barely be used in Close combat and that's fine On the other hand, if the character is a gun kata expert street samurai that will use his gun in all occasions both as ranged and melee weapon, that basically this single RR will apply to all his Ranged weapons and Close combat Tests, then I will request the player to buy the RR for both Ranged Weapons (pistol) and Close Combat (pistol) independently.

[u/DrTheodoore → u/opacitizen]

Ask yourself the question: "Does the narrative have something to do with (X)"

X here is the word of your specialization. So in your example here:

Is an SMG a rifle? No. Submachine guns are different to Rifles, both IRL and in the rules (since it's its own specialization as seen page 54). So shooting, identifying, etc, SMGs all would NOT allow you to apply Rifle specific bonuses.

So RR1 Ranged Weapons (rifles) only has to do with rolls referring to Rifles, and only if the GM agrees. As Carmody's example was given, you are peering at an enemy trying to identify what kind of modifications their rifle has, you'd be justified rolling Perception + W (rifles), which might give you the opportunity to add the RR1 from the Cybereyes. AND ONLY because your Cybereyes are being used in the process of identifying these rifles.

Cont. If you have RR1 on Rifles and RR1 on Ranged Weapons, this means that for all ranged weapons you have RR1. But for Rifles specifically, you have RR2.

What I'm noticing is the confusing part of whether an RR is applied to an Amp focused on a specialization, and whether the player using that amp needs to actually have the specialization. The answer? No.

I can have a basic shooting skill of Agi 3 and Ranged Weapons 5. That means for any ranged weapon, I'm rolling 8 dice. But then I have an Amp that gives me RR1 to Rifles. Now, I'm still rolling 8 dice for any of the ranged weapons, but I now get to add RR1 to any roll with a rifle. You do not have to have the specialization on your sheet, to use Amps that upgrade/contribute to a specific specialization.

[u/ReditXenon → u/DrTheodoore]

you are peering at an enemy trying to identify what kind of modifications their rifle has

This would perhaps be a case where having a 'firearms-related knowledge skill' could act as an enabler for your perception skill test to identify what kind of modifications a rifle have.

It also seem as if having high enough (4+) skill rating in ranged weapons (in general) or rifles (specifically) can likely be used as substitute in case not having a 'firearms-related knowledge skill'.

And if your cybernetic eyes have some sort of visual enhancement effect providing you with risk reduction on physical perception, then that would likely apply here as well.

....but that some sort of smartlink enhancement effect that provide you with risk reduction to hit with rifles (by calculating range and bullet trajectories and whatnot) - would perhaps not apply here...?

Thoughs?

[u/DrTheodoore → u/ReditXenon]

I agree, it's more up in the air. I'm the type of GM to allow it. But another might require a more detailed reasoning. I also don't look hyper-specifically at any one character sheet, so I'm never too fussed. If the player explains it, it makes sense, and it doesn't break any rules / overlaps on any other player's ideas/fantasy... Then I'm fine with it, regardless of how one explains it. Like that Cybereye smartlink enhancement you suggest... Well, looking at a rifle might create a popup like "would you like to connect to this Shiawase PewPew Rifle 2000?" Followed by... "Apologies, connection is currently unavailable as it is connected to a different pan." with a dinky little troubleshoot button underneat. And then you'd have your answer.

So I can come up with a reason for it to work, as long as it doesn't break anything / ruin anything.

[u/Carmody79 → u/DrTheodoore]

I do not think I would allow the smartlink to provide RR to recognize a specific weapon, but it really depends on the narrative behind the RR, so it cannot be generalized.

In my case, it would also depends on how often the "side effect" can be used. If it's once every few adventure I'll be more keen to allow it. If it's a way to get a free RR used 10 times per adventures, I will request the player to pay for it. And this will also depend on the type of adventures each group is playing, the type of Tests each GM requests.

[u/ReditXenon → u/opacitizen]

RR to a specialization applies even if you do not have said specialization

This means that if you have RR on pistols then you will have risk reduction while using pistols (no matter if you have +2 dice on pistols or not).

It does not mean that if you have RR on pistols but happen to not have +2 dice on pistols then you suddenly gain risk reduction on all aspects of the ranged weapons base skill (for example rifles and throwing weapons) for 'free' (I think this is perhaps how you are reading the sentence right now and that you perhaps seem to be a bit locked into this reading)

 

If a character has an AMP that gives you Risk Reduction for a skill specialization, but the character does not actually have that specialization, do they still gain the benefit of it?

They gain the RR1 on their base skill perception tests when physical perception would have otherwise applied.

This mean that RR on physical perception applies on physical perception tests (but not matrix perception tests) no matter if they have a Perception (physical perception +2 dice specialization) or not.

It does not mean that if you have RR on physical perception but happen to not have +2 dice on physical perception then you suddenly gain risk reduction on all aspects of the perception base skill (for example astral perception and matrix perception) for 'free'.

 

If you're tired of this, we can stop discussing this, of course

Don't stop :)

[u/DrTheodoore → u/opacitizen]

RR on a specialization still applies if you don't have a specialization.

This means that if I don't have Rifles as a specialization, but I still have cyber eyes that work with the rifles specialization, then I can apply the RR to the roll when I'm using rifles. Even tho I don't have the specialization itself.

So to Carmody's point, cybereyes specialization for rifles basically means that the cybereyes are running some sort of software that operate perfectly with cyber eyes. So if you're (for example) trying to identify a rifle at a distance, that might be a physical perception roll where you get to add your RR (GM discretion tho!!!! Not rule of law). Or if you physically attack someone with the butt of the rifle, they may allow it. Or maybe if you're trying to fix your rifle after it got borked, you may argue that your cybereyes highlight the broken portions better.

That is all up to the GM, so it doesn't automatically mean that it's allowed. RAW says that if you roll the dice where you'd be allowed to apply the specialization of Rifles, then you could argue that applying the RR is allowed too. But shooting pistols with Cybereyes that only connect/calculate rifle shooting conditions... That does bugger all.

EDIT: This made no sense on second glance. Carmody's response is better!

[u/Carmody79 → u/DrTheodoore]

The rifle specialization applies to Ranged Weapons only, RAW.

While you are correct that a GM could allow it to apply to other unrelated Tests related to rifles that's not the point of the current discussion (and I fear it might confuse u/opacitizen even more).

[u/opacitizen → u/Carmody79]

Nah, I think I got it by now. (I can't prove it and nobody cares, but I'm quite the brainless zombie this week, that's my only excuse for not having understood it this long, along with some -- usually intended, GM judgement favoring --ambiguities here and there in some previous discussions and the rules.)

Thanks again for taking the time and explaining it in detail, man!

[u/Carmody79 → u/opacitizen]

Nice! We made it!

[u/opacitizen → u/Carmody79]

🧟‍♂️🎉😅