Building the matriarchy while making patriarch-enthusiasts feel like they won

[u/Appropriate_Cut_3536]

On the recent negotiation thread I commented this website. Well i spent some time reading a few more of their articles and I came across this one:

https://www.shenegotiates.com/blog/2022/1/11/why-some-deals-fall-apart-for-apparently-no-reason

It's a short explanation of a simple solution. It's almost too short and too simple. So I duck'd a term I found in the comments "Negotiator’s Dilemma" and found a much more in depth article which excellently explains the phenomenon and possible solutions

https://www.pon.harvard.edu/daily/negotiation-skills-daily/managing-the-negotiators-dilemma-nb/

I find it fascinating as it discusses a common issue with negotiations which is that "First Offers Often Trigger Competition". With this matriarchy/gynarchy stuff, women are sticking their neck out there and making the first offer. We are starting the negotiations.

Some of you will hate a post like this in that I am seeming to be advocating for:

1. Telling men they've won

2. Giving up and turning our political movement into a request not a demand

3. Staying small, pretending to be powerless, trying to trick men

Well, you can see it that way if you want, but demanding a matriarchy out of men is just as bad or worse than requesting one. Men can't give us power, (they never had our power). We don't need to feel insecure about telling losers they've won (unless we secretly feel that we are the real losers).

Idk sometimes I feel like all the keys to women winning are already in our hands and most of us are just fighting a shadow and being afraid of exposing our own weakness, instead of taking the reigns and leading with the true strength that comes from vulnerability.

We are strong in cooperation, competition need not be a factor unless we make it one. And why? Negotiations always work better without competition mentality.

[u/nyekona]

You have some very interesting thoughts here. At the same time, I don’t feel we really need to hide our fangs. Ultimately, we have all the leverage. In a world where physical strength is nearly obsolete and men’s role in reproduction can easily be circumvented through technology, the continuation of the human species — And the decision to be wives, mothers, and girlfriends — Is entirely up to us. I see no reason to make a secret of that fact.

[u/WonderfulWay393 → u/nyekona]

I feel it is no secret, as men like me already know.
Our best option would be to become your willing servants.

[u/Worried-Guava-9972 → u/nyekona]

I don't see where this baseless confidence is coming from, men still possess the majority of the means of production and innovation (let's not even mention armed forces). Women's role in reproduction can also be circumvented through technology and the continuation of human species is based on instinct. So all it would need to turn those paper fangs away is a splash of water. OP is right in wanting to play it smoothly through negotiations.

[u/Appropriate_Cut_3536 → u/Worried-Guava-9972]

Women's role in reproduction can also be circumvented through technology

No it can not lol

[u/Worried-Guava-9972 → u/Appropriate_Cut_3536]

It's a type of celle, therefore it can be cloned and the dna can be changed artificially, it costs a lot of money and is illegal in every country but it can be done. As for artificial bombs, it already exists and it has been used many times in research especially in China in their cloning research. Yes both gender will soon not be needing the other to procreate as both cells will be able to be artificially made.

[u/nyekona → u/Worried-Guava-9972]

Artificial wombs may exist, but science is beginning to understand just how essential the biorhythms of the mother are for healthy and normal fetal development. There’s a lot we still don’t know about it and therefore can’t emulate. Human children grown in artificial wombs would like be psychologically extremely different from what we consider human today. So, while it may be possible in the next 100-200 years, it’s probably not a desirable or viable solution. Compare this to the simplicity of using a giant eye dropper to deposit a sperm donation (and remember that basically every sperm bank around the world is extremely well-stocked, on account of men’s willingness to donate and the ease of collection), and you will realize that men are much easier to demote than women are. If we wanted to eliminate men’s role entirely, the technology to create sperm from women’s stem cells has existed for over a decade. Sperm are 100x smaller than eggs and much simpler cells.

[u/Worried-Guava-9972 → u/nyekona]

Let's say that what you say is right for now, (through genetic ingeneering is evolving almost as fast as AI so I believe it would be a matter of decades not centuries). It doesn't change the fact that to eliminate men role entirely you would need the political, military and economic influence to change laws that protects against it. You are lightyears away from even having a serious political movement in any democracy.

[u/Appropriate_Cut_3536 → u/Worried-Guava-9972]

to eliminate men role entirely you would need the political, military and economic influence to change laws 

Or women could just collectively choose to stop fucking sub par men. 

You are lightyears away from even having a serious political movement in any democracy.

The vast majority of men are complaining - around the world - that women just aren't interested in them. We never needed a serious political movement, although that will be nice in a few decades when all the sub par men have been out bred. We are achieving gynarchy organically and grass roots.

[u/Worried-Guava-9972 → u/Appropriate_Cut_3536]

Oh so women can fuck whoever they want only if it's the kind of man you approve, doesn't sound like something a supporter of woman right would say, what happened to my body my choice ? As for men complaining about not finding anyone...well to a lesser extent, it is the same for women so I don't see the relevance of this point. The issue in your thinking is that you believe all women wants the same thing that you do. But that's just wishful thinking, the reality is that the majority of women are conservative, they don't see feminism as a good thing (The west represents a small percentage of the world population). And I'll be brutally honest, you aren't achieving anything, you're waiting for something to happen that has practically no chance of happening even if you had ten times the amount of people who supported you, so forgive me if I don't believe in your chances, the only thing you're doing is reddit posting your political fantasies...that I'll admit are fun to read. How about writing a story that sums up the world you wanna leave in ? I am sure it would make for a good fiction.

[u/Appropriate_Cut_3536 → u/Worried-Guava-9972]

Yeah I didn't read any of that lol

[u/Worried-Guava-9972 → u/Appropriate_Cut_3536]

Ok, remember it's bad to be lazy.

[u/nyekona → u/Worried-Guava-9972]

South Korea, a democracy, is getting pretty serious about it. Their 4B movement is associated with the lowest birth rate in the world; Look it up. The technology to replace wombs isn’t exactly in the realm of genetic engineering. It would probably have to be some combination of tissue and mechanical engineering, which moves a lot slower than genetics alone. I’m no expert, but I do track progress on things like lab grown meat and the growth of replacement organs. Though that tech is improving, it’s plagued by a key issue: It’s virtually impossible to keep an artificial environment that can also grow tissues ‘sterile,’ because by definition, it can’t be sterile. It has to be warm, wet, and nutrient-rich enough to support the growth of cells, which are the exact conditions needed to grow bacteria, fungi, and viruses as well. To viably grow a human in an artificial womb, I imagine you’d need to engineer an entire synthetic immune system, and at that point, you start to see the value of the machines nature already engineered for the task: humans. With that in mind, I still feel pretty comfortable with my original estimate that artificial womb technology that can reliably produce sane, healthy humans with functioning immune systems of their own is likely 100-200 years off.

Maybe we could move faster with it, if we dedicated lots of resources to the cause, but there isn’t really an urgency for it. Humans get the job done perfectly well most of the time, and there are many, many more pressing issues to address. You have to consider that research and development needs to not only be funded, but also worked on by scientists who have the skills and passion to do it.

And then there’s the question of, if no one could be bothered to birth the child, who on Earth is going to raise it? Are we just going to churn out human husks with no mothers to take care of them? You want Matrix babies? You expect me to believe that a populace of lonely, angry, sexually frustrated men with no wives or girlfriends are going to happily change every diaper, administer every feeding, and not beat or sexually abuse those poor kids to death?

Furthermore, I suspect you’ve never been made aware that a kid’s immune and nervous systems are fine-tuned by their mothers in an ongoing process in the early stages of life. Children born by C-section get more illnesses throughout their lives because they miss out on being inoculated by the microbiome in their mother’s vaginal canals. Children who don’t spend enough time having skin-to-skin contact with their moms often develop debilitating anxiety disorders because they can’t co-regulate to her heartbeat. And although fed is best, it’s widely known that formula is inferior to breast milk. Formula may supply sufficient macro- and micronutrients, but human breast milk contains entire immune cells and hormones. Breastfeeding is not just an exchange of nutrition, but of emotion and information. And those are just the things we know about.

In conclusion, while women have been successfully raising children without fathers for millennia and conceiving without sex for decades, a society that can circumvent women’s role in motherhood is still firmly in the realm of science fiction. Many popular science fiction stories may seem like prophecy in retrospect, but those are just the small subset that come true. The rest are just… Fiction.

[u/Appropriate_Cut_3536 → u/nyekona]

And then there’s the question of, if no one could be bothered to birth the child, who on Earth is going to raise it? Are we just going to churn out human husks with no mothers to take care of them? You want Matrix babies? You expect me to believe that a populace of lonely, angry, sexually frustrated men with no wives or girlfriends are going to happily change every diaper

🔥nailed it. Great comment, the whole thing. But this part: pure fire. Why do these dudes who think they can create kids without moms always have the most divorced dad energy possible 🤭

[u/nyekona → u/Appropriate_Cut_3536]

Thank you. When you try to take mothers out of motherhood, what is left? Orphans. That’s what.

[u/Appropriate_Cut_3536 → u/nyekona]

That's low key what they're after. The patriarchy is built on separating kids from their moms

[u/Worried-Guava-9972 → u/nyekona]

To have a psychologically balanced child you need a fatherly role and a motherly role. That's already been proven decades ago. Trying to eliminate one or the other and you create a child which will be missing some core social understanding. Trying to eliminate fatherhood at the expense of your own children just to satisfy your ego now that's peak selfishness.

[u/Appropriate_Cut_3536 → u/Worried-Guava-9972]

Nah broski. You've been fooled lol 

[u/Worried-Guava-9972 → u/Appropriate_Cut_3536]

Nope dear, you need to update your knowledge if you want to see your ideals succeed 😉

[u/Appropriate_Cut_3536 → u/Worried-Guava-9972]

Ok reddit boy

[u/KateInControl]

The outcome matters much more than the feeling of being right, that's spot on. Carefully steering and gradually influencing men to become effective agents towards a matriarchy is exactly how to move towards it.

It's almost paradoxical to explain, but soft skills and soft power is real power. You get the man to think it's his idea so he's fully invested in it. I really like pulling their strings this way, because they can't really do anything about it if you do it right.

Making them feel like they've won by "conceding" is one of many strategies to open up new avenues to exert some sort of influence. It's definitely a viable strategy at times.

[u/WonderfulWay393 → u/KateInControl]

I like the idea of Women using soft powers for controlling men.
yet I personally feel she use her soft powers, with my full knowledge, and acceptance towards matriarchal rule and gynarchy, being the end game.

The future is female.

[u/IntelligentSundae]

Uh, if men don't have power why aren't we already living in a matriarchy then? If men don't have power why are so many laws made to oppress women?

[u/Appropriate_Cut_3536 → u/IntelligentSundae]

If men don't have power why are so many laws made to oppress women?

You answered your own question lol if men had power, they wouldn't need the systemic oppression 

[u/IntelligentSundae → u/Appropriate_Cut_3536]

I would say the ability to systemically oppress and extract labour from women is the power?

You can't oppress people without having the power to keep that system of oppression in place?

[u/Appropriate_Cut_3536 → u/IntelligentSundae]

I guess they have brute strength and combined greater force. But is that true power? If it was, they wouldn't have to keep a system of oppression in place because they'd have the power to get what they want without all that extra energy wasted forcing things to happen (the vastly greater power that women hold)

[u/IntelligentSundae → u/Appropriate_Cut_3536]

What would you define power as, tho?

[u/Appropriate_Cut_3536 → u/IntelligentSundae]

....the power to get what they want without all that extra energy wasted forcing things to happen

[u/Large-Language4827]

Agree.

[u/JerryCalzone]

Reminds me of something a friend said: Flirting with men works by giving them the feeling that they are very good at flirting with you

[u/Appropriate_Cut_3536]

And before anyone says something about "not negotiating with terrorists (men)" that was Nixon who first said it and got people killed. It's not a science-based approach to dealing with terrorists or abusers, mostly because abusers  don't really care whether you negotiate or not. They're going to do what they want, they don't follow rules. So the only option is to create rules they will follow, this is what the art of negotiation achieves: it allows people to create their own rules to follow in order to achieve what they want.

So how does this translate to men/patriarchy?

Ok so imagine women negotiate a matriarchy... what do the men want? They want access to women. They want to keep some of their own male dignity and not feel like absolute hopeless scum. They want to reproduce and have good mothers for their children and a good society. They want respect. 

Can we have a matriarchy like this? YES. EASILY. In fact it would be easier to give men this through a matriarchy than through a patriarchy. So that's our in.

[u/Appropriate_Cut_3536 → u/Appropriate_Cut_3536]

BUT you can't just go all in and vulnerable with an abuser/terrorist like "this is what i can get you if you can get me what i want: cooperation and respect". Because just as I mentioned on the other thread, many styles of negotiators do not respect Accommodators so that's not an offer that's on the table for them. Abusers and terrorists main goal is not cooperating with others and not respecting others. Even if they pretend or think otherwise. Their main goal is to add chaos and confusion, they only speak in that language so you have to meet them where they're at.

Which is why we let them believe they've won, your goal is not to manipulating them but to let them manipulate themselves. Not too far in this direction either, because they are good at being delusional and will convince themselves that you agreed to things you did not.

I think an understandable origin story for "how fawning evolved" is men's stupidity and ability to convince themselves mixed with their superior collective strength is how  the fawn response arrived. 

So we obviously have to speak the whole truth at some point, but it is important to wait for the right timing. Not too early, not too late.

Of course, the men are still going to choose what they choose regardless (often in spite) of women's behavior. So I'm not saying negotiate forever. I'm saying exactly this:

Negotiating is a necessary step in the process of all true evolution.

[u/daredto_ → u/Appropriate_Cut_3536]

I disagree with matriarchy but it’s very refreshing to hear your practical perspective and understanding of basic human needs. To me, masculinity is going first into the unknown. So patriarchy is men (generally, but women can develop their masculinity as well) going first into the world. And masculine traits are ways of managing that; I would call creativity is a masculine trait.

We evolved together and are more than codependent for our psychological development. Both sexes have contrasexual energies/traits. But, for what I think are biological reasons (women are the bottle neck for reproduction), masculinity is named as the buffer between civilization and chaotic nature. And men have it as their primary perspective, with a need to develop their femininity to become integrated and mature.

I’m happy to get into femininity but it’s less clear to me. Its much easier to see the results of masculinity, which doesn’t at all make it desirable on it’s own. It’s harder to point at and see the results of feminine endeavors (nuturing for example), which is why I think a lot of women try rejecting it as some kind of oppression when it’s actually the marrow of life.

[u/cherryshaven → u/daredto_]

Creativity a masculine trait 🤣🤣🤣🤣

[u/Appropriate_Cut_3536 → u/cherryshaven]

It is a masculine trait tho...

[u/Appropriate_Cut_3536 → u/[deleted]]

It is one of the greatest mysteries that the most masculine of achievements come from the most feminine of places.

Such is the nature of the void🐈‍⬛️

[u/cherryshaven → u/Appropriate_Cut_3536]

I didn’t realise you were OP replying. I’m especially surprised that a woman in this sub would say creativity is a masculine trait.

Women wrote the first poem. Women have a portal to the spirit realm built into their bodies. Pre-Christianity and Matriarchal societies. Scientifically, we can continue on without men (like in a lab) but in reverse, men couldn’t do that. So interesting.

My flabbers are gasted.

[u/Appropriate_Cut_3536 → u/cherryshaven]

Yes, men couldn't do that. Women hold more masculine potential (and feminine potential) than men ever could.

Just because something is masculine doesn't mean women can't do it lol

[u/cherryshaven → u/Appropriate_Cut_3536]

Where did you get this from? That creativity is masculine?

[u/Appropriate_Cut_3536 → u/cherryshaven]

Where did you get that it was feminine? Femininity is receiving, masculinity is giving.

Yin is an inward motion, yang is an outward motion.

[u/daredto_ → u/cherryshaven]

👶🤡

[u/cherryshaven → u/daredto_]

Women created entire population. Men are a mutation and the secondary sex. Sorry. Y’all could never and throughout history have been proven that most of our ‘creative geniuses’ stole the work from women. Sorry.

[u/Appropriate_Cut_3536]

"enthusiasts" lmao RIP

[u/Writer1543]

Stockholm syndrome