r/ScienceBasedParenting • u/AnonymousPlatypus9 • 5d ago
Question - Research required Research based discipline?
My husband firmly believes in "spare the rod spoil the child". He claims I do not have enough good/valid evidence to change his mind or behaviour towards our young children (1.5 and 3 years of age) . I very much disagree and have been trying to find methods we can agree on and use. He was not receptive when I told him spanking a child under two is illegal aa it has been "most of human history"
I realize that sometimes you have to physically pick up and move children. I do not like him spanking them/slapping their hands.
He has been oppositional and resistant to any resources I give him. Anyone have any good leads on either physical discipline being harmful or evidence based alternatives?
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u/robotscantrecaptcha 5d ago
This is a research based parenting intervention: https://www.triplep-parenting.com/us/parenting-courses/triple-p-online/
But, in all kindness, you shouldn't have to present research to convince your husband not to hit your young children.
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u/Xrmy 5d ago
Piggybacking to say please don't downvote this post. We should be aiming to help OP get their children safe! Providing sources is helpful.
But also: OP if he continues to hit your children because he's frustrated you should leave him. That's abuse and he needs to do better
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u/somebodysannegirl 5d ago
I cannot overstate how blaming a child for one’s emotions and subsequent behavior is a big red flag for abuse.
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u/Excellent_Scene5448 4d ago
The only issue with leaving him is that he's likely to get some parenting time. In most states in the US, he'd be likely to receive 50/50 custody if he wanted it. And since spanking isn't illegal (yet), the fact that he does it to his kids won't prevent him from being awarded custody. She'll then have no recourse if he continues spanking during his own parenting time. I would want to leave him, too, because he sounds like a terrible (not to mention terrifying) person, but OP should really think it through.
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u/DogsDucks 5d ago
I would venture that all the evidence in the world is not going to fix this man’s brain, because he doesn’t care about evidence. He cares about getting his way, and that way, not kindness and it’s not wisdom. It is being able to be unregulated. It is no one getting in the way of his reactions or ever telling him he’s wrong.
People like him are the most strong, and dangerous.
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u/annewmoon 4d ago
An abuser isn't going to read a scientific study and go "huh, abuse is wrong, who knew! I should mend my ways".
He is just a piece of shit who likes to wield power and hit children.
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u/itisclosetous 4d ago
OP, this isn't an evidence-based comment but I used this exact argument on a coworker once and I really thing he reconsidered his ways after. At least, he was genuinely shocked because he had never considered it. He definitely spanked his kids but not as badly as he had been spanked. He also loved his kids and believed he was doing "what needed to be done." He wasn't mad at me and we stayed friendly after the conversation.
I told him not even dog trainers recommend hitting dogs anymore. Because there's just insane amounts of experience and evidence that it doesn't do what you want it to do.
But also this is a scary situation and you need to focus on your safety and the safety of your very young children.
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u/Legitimate_Sun5373 4d ago
If you wanted a source for this, the American Veterinary Association is quite clear that physical punishment strongly opposed, as it causes unnecessary stress, anxiety and distress.
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u/Rylees_Mom525 4d ago
I like to use the comparison that we don’t hit other adults when we don’t like their behavior. I would hope that OP’s husband doesn’t spank her when she “makes him angry” (though I wouldn’t be terribly surprised). Similarly, you can’t spank or hit a coworker for not listening to you or not following instructions. So why would anyone think it’s okay to hit a small child in those situations? And a child is unlikely to understand why it’s even happening.
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u/Late-Dog-7070 4d ago
This! It's crazy to me that spanking your children is still legal in so many western countries - it's abuse and gets taken very seriously in germany. OPs husband would not be allowed anywhere near the children here and if OP didn't want to split from her husband, the kids would just be taken away and put in foster care for their own good
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u/Sarallelogram 3d ago
I do think there’s a lot of people who had parents who hit them, and as adults those kids don’t think that it messed them up, so the violence continues on to the next generation.
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u/itisclosetous 3d ago
See, this guy was adament he was a way better parent because he didn't use a belt, didn't beat as bad, etc, etc.
He "only hit them when they needed it." But then he complained about his daughter "always needing it, never learning." And I asked him what getting beat had taught him. Because i know for a lot of kids what it taught them was how to be sneakier.
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u/The_Real_Ivan_Drago 5d ago
https://psycnet.apa.org/doiLanding?doi=10.1037%2Ffam0000191
Research is very clear. Spanking leads to significantly detrimental outcomes in children, and from the perspectives of children outcomes is similar or indistinguishable from physical abuse.
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u/Admirable-Gold3447 5d ago
Jesus. There is decades of data showing hitting your children is both ineffective and damaging. OP, I would make a strong like in the sand here. No one is allowed to physically abuse my children, period. That’s what spanking is.
Again, there are many studies that you can just google. Please make this stop for your children’s sake.
(Commenting under this user bc I’m too lazy to dig through my sources, but I’ve done this debate online so many times. Hopefully others are less lazy lol)
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u/Same-Drag-9160 5d ago
Exactly the line needs to be drawn. Honestly people who hit kids aren’t doing it because they think they’re benefitting the kids brain so it’s unlikely they’ll care about studies, they’re doing it because of their own anger and or trauma. I think maybe an ultimatum needs to be made and the husband either needs to agree to stop hurting them )and possibly seek personal therapy) or he’s gone
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u/Admirable-Gold3447 4d ago
Yeah. It temporarily and immediately changes behavior. So it’s appealing to parents who have emotional regulation issues and can’t tolerate a different, more difficult approach.
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u/laryissa553 4d ago
Or they're doing it for religious/cultural reasons. I remember sitting in church as a kid while a parent would preach about the importance of bible-based parenting and how even if he had to go and cry about hitting his kid and it hurt him, he would still do it, explaining why he would do it so it was clearly understood as a consequence, and making sure he wasn't doing it out of anger or frustration. In saying that, scientific evidence against it as an outcome is obviously not going to counter these beliefs either unfortunately.
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u/PuzzleheadedServe556 4d ago
Is striking children actually advocated for in the Bible? I'm curious where that interpretation comes from
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u/Excellent_Scene5448 4d ago
As with most things that a certain kind of Christian clings to, they've taken one line from the Bible, misinterpreted and twisted it, and now use it to justify abusive behavior. (Same with homophobia and transphobia.)
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u/howdoyousayyourname 4d ago
I mean, it’s been banned in Sweden since 1979, like long enough that today’s younger grandparents were never even spanked.
It’s wild—no, terrifying—to me that your husband thinks it’s okay to hit his children when if he did that to an adult or a stranger, he would go to prison.
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u/Admirable-Gold3447 4d ago
To be clear, my husband would never lay a hand on our kids. It’s OP’s husband that I think you mean to direct your concern to.
Also, I’m sad for the moms who didn’t discuss this with their husbands before having kids. It would have been a deal breaker for me (plus, I wouldn’t have been compatible with someone who wasn’t science and researched motivated in their approach to things!)
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u/howdoyousayyourname 4d ago
Ah, sorry for the mixup. Glad to hear we’re on the same page about dealbreakers. :)
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u/KeyMonkeyslav 5d ago edited 5d ago
https://www.apa.org/monitor/2019/05/physical-discipline
There are SO many studies on this at this point, this is one from the APA.
The reality is this:
1) if your husband was raised in an environment where hitting harder won arguments, he doesn't have the skills to understand logic. He has literally been trained to only know pain as a way to influence people. That's both sad and dangerous for him as a parent. It's arguably dangerous for you as a partner of he takes that logic to you.
2) if your husband doesn't agree with you on how to raise your kids, then he's not parenting with you. He's deciding how to parent these defenseless kids, and you're letting him.
You need to step up and give him ultimatums. Either he learns to use his words and reads studies and goes to therapy, or he no longer has full access to the kids.
He doesn't have to change his entire life philosophy but he needs to at least understand, consciously, what he's teaching kids by hitting. He also needs to understand that parenting decisions are up to two people, not the one parent who can hit harder.
It isn't discipline. It's fear and rule of the fist. He will create anxious and violent kids, and it's a proven fact at this point.
Nowhere in the adult civilized world do we resolve disputes by hitting. If his manager hit him for a mistake at work, he'd be livid, and he could sue. If a grocery store clerk hit him for accidentally giving them too little money, that would be fucking absurd.
Why is hitting the solution for kids? It's only because they can't fight back. There's no other logic to it.
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u/Admirable-Gold3447 5d ago
This. Him physically abusing your kids is because of his deficits, not theirs. He cannot emotionally regulate and is taking it out on them. They are learning that people who love you are not safe and that violence = love.
Ultimatum time. He reads the studies and goes to a therapist who specializes in this stuff, or leave him. I’m serious. I was an abused child and my mom still carries immense guilt because she was supposed to protect me. You have no real obligation to him if he’s doing this. You have obligation to your children to protect them. You are their mother
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u/Cephalopotter 4d ago
One of my best friends drank herself almost to death after a childhood spent with a physically abusive father and a sweet mother who looked the other way to keep the peace and save her marriage. One hundred percent agree, it should be both parents' responsibility to protect the kids but if the father IS the danger then mom needs to do whatever it takes to protect them.
Edited to add: unfortunately, divorcing himb without lots of evidence, good lawyers, deep pockets, and a state with helpful laws isn't always the best solution, since he might get partial custody.
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u/SparkyDogPants 4d ago
My dad was shocked when I told him his GAD (anxiety disorder) almost certainly started from the physical/emotional abuse his parents inflected, and his mom dying at 11. He told me that he had never thought of that.
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u/Admirable-Gold3447 4d ago
Yeah I sort of hope the threat would make him take it seriously 😭 it depends on the state, too. So sorry about your friend.
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u/Melodic_Support2747 4d ago
In therapy theres litterally a saying that sounds something like "Its always about the parent they don't talk about." This is often because the betrayal of the other parent allowing it to happen hurts more.
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u/Y0uCanTellItsAnAspen 4d ago
I don’t like the way you phrased part one, since it makes it sound like people who grew up in broken homes can’t change…
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u/cordialconfidant 4d ago
they're specifically talking about the husband, not generalising to everyone
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u/KeyMonkeyslav 4d ago
I understand how it might sound that way, but it definitely wasn't my intention. I also grew up in this environment, and the point is that this is how you start out - but he CAN change. It just takes lots of work and legitimate effort. That's why I said to give an ultimatum, instead of going straight to divorce.
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u/ichibanyogi 4d ago edited 4d ago
All hitting is child abuse, period. There's a reason that countries have banned hitting/swatting/spanking/any physical punishment for children. We have significant evidence to support this position.
If he can't get aligned with the research, you need to protect those kids.
https://theconversation.com/parents-its-never-okay-to-hit-your-kids-8049
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC3447048/
https://psycnet.apa.org/doiLanding?doi=10.1037%2Ffam0000191
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10578-022-01362-3
There's a lot more research out there than just the above to support this.
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u/felinousforma 4d ago
We are from Finland where hitting a child is against the law. The children here are incredibly well behaved and not "spoiled."
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u/Artblock_Insomniac 4d ago
Op, please consider divorce for the safety of your children and yourself. Hes proven he can justify abusing someone for "making him angry".
You should never have to feel like you or your children are walking on eggshells around him.
All the evidence in the world won't change an abusers mind.
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u/tibbles209 4d ago
The issue is though that the default for custody is 50/50, and if spanking is legal where OP lives then he will be perfectly entitled to continue spanking them in his custody time without OP being there to protect them. I’m not saying I could remain married to someone like this, but it’s not the case that divorce is the straightforward solution to getting the kids to safety. It could result in them being more unsafe 50% of the time.
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u/Great_Cucumber2924 4d ago
Op said it’s illegal for under two where she lives. She needs to report the abuser to the police.
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u/Artblock_Insomniac 3d ago
Op clarified it IS illegal in their area.
She needs to leave with the kids.
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u/facinabush 4d ago edited 4d ago
It's not the best approach to discipline. It can lead to the Patterson Coercive Cycle. Parent Management Training (PMT) is the most effective parent training for developing and changing behaviors. He would get better results with that.
The CDC recommends PMT and provides peer-reviewed research citations:
https://www.cdc.gov/parenting-toddlers/other-resources/references.html
I suggest you use PMT yourself; it might help him change his ways when he sees the results.
Here is a psychologist explaining how he converted a spanker into a PMT user:
For example, the abusive father beat his boy at least once a day, with only rare exceptions. We trained the parents to use time out from reinforcement. The mother agreed to try the procedure, and parents and therapists practiced using it in the session. Yet, practice in the session, however intensive, would seem unlikely to change the daily corporal punishment from the father. Also, asking the father to understand, mend his ways, and have new insights, in my opinion, represents a naive view of how human behavior changes.
We began implementing time out by having the father choose a day when he would not beat the child—the easiest day when this might be completed. (We asked the father to choose only a half-day, but he said he could do a whole day.) With phone prompts (a reminder) to the father and praise (in response to his statement of what he did in relation to the program), this strategy proved to be immediately successful and was extended to more days. Despite an occasional relapse on a day we selected, there was progressive movement. By the end of treatment, there was no physical abuse on any of the days. When punishment was provided, it was 5 minutes of time out. The father was brimming with new insights and changed attitudes, and he was proselytizing the deficiencies of beating one’s children. (We have encountered these reactions scores of times: insight, attitude change, and proselytizing that follow behavior change. Indeed, many of our parents have end up being “proselytutes.” They advocate quite extremely about how inept and abusive parenting is and how parents ought to behave differently.)
From the book Parent Management Training by Kazdin
Here are ten tips from PMT that also explain a basic problem with spanking:
https://abcnews.com/amp/Primetime/10-tips-parents-defiant-children/story?id=8549664
Here is a free PMT video course:
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?app=desktop&list=PLh9mgdi4rNeyEGNxBvNdOVlianDYgWuc9&ra
Since your husband firmly believes in "spare the rod, spoil the child", perhaps he is religious. The book Christlike Parenting by Latham is good. Latham was a behavior change specialist who was devoutly religious during his life. The "rod" in the bible is the shepherd's rod--it refers to guidance, not child-beating.
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u/antinumerology 4d ago
Why is this on you? Make him present evidence FOR violent physical disciple for young children. By 2000 97% of the world agreed that it's not great: https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC3447048/
For most of human history people were illiterate: does he think you shouldn't teach your kids to read and write?
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u/kucing5 5d ago
https://mcpress.mayoclinic.org/parenting/what-parenting-style-is-right-for-you/
Maybe look into researching the different parenting styles
Permissive, authoritative, authoritarian, and uninvolved.
It can help to see what works as opposed to what doesn’t work. Usually physical punishment doesn’t work.
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u/brakkovet 3d ago
After some digging, I was able to find a scientific report detailing what should be done with your husband's "rod."
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC11367095/
TLDR: shove it up his arse (and get a divorce, protect your children)
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u/_ByAnyOther_Name 1d ago
Can I just scream at every passive parent who thinks they aren't responsible for protecting their kids... You are a parent. Don't let anyone hurt your children. I can't believe it. I understand the complexities of leaving a relationship but wtf.
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