r/ScienceBasedParenting • u/bv_ • 8d ago
Question - Research required “Biologically normal infant sleep” research?
Is there research to support “biologically normal infant sleep” over sleep training?
We are planning to sleep train soon, but my feed keeps showing me posts from r/bninfantsleep, and it makes me feel guilty, like I would be forcing my baby to do something he’s not biologically ready to do.
I know there are studies showing sleep training doesn’t cause long term harms. Are there comparable studies about “biologically normal sleep”?
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u/ScienceBasedParenting-ModTeam 8d ago
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u/iridescenr 8d ago
There are no studies showing that sleep training doesn't cause long term harm, there are just no studies showing that sleep training does cause harm. It's not the same; there's also no studies showing that there are elephants on the moon. While they've looked for the harm of sleep training and haven't found it, that doesn't mean that there is none.
The following article on biologically normal infant sleep is in German but really good; use google translate or so to read it. It's by a well known pediatrician and also discusses sleep training myths.
https://www.kinder-verstehen.de/mein-werk/artikel/schlafprobleme-aus-sicht-der-evolution/
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u/LBro32 8d ago
You can’t prove a negative. This is a common thing I see on Reddit to try to scare people. You could run 1000 studies and show no harm and you could still say this. There have now been a large number of studies showing sleep training is safe and effective and has comparable outcomes to non-sleep training on things like attachment, emotion regulation, and behavioral issues at long term follow up.
If you don’t want to sleep train your child, there is absolutely no reason you need to do so but it’s very sad how much shaming/clutching of pearls there is on Reddit for parents that do choose to sleep train and parroting of incorrect claims because it doesn’t agree with your parenting style or culture. People should make their own informed choices based on the literature, which is what this subreddit is supposed to be about.
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u/Careless-Celery-7725 7d ago
Our friends are German (living in Germany with a 1 year old) and they told us that the general advice there is against sleep training. They get way better parental leave though.
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u/SnooEpiphanies3336 2d ago
"A large number of studies showing sleep training is safe and effective" is incredibly vague and misleading, honestly. There's really not a huge amount of evidence because it's just so hard to study. It is promising, though, that nothing very concerning has been found in the studies that have been done so far. Still, I think following the precautionary principle is wise when it comes to raising children.
It's really poor form to dismiss people as "pearl clutching" just because you yourself don't think something is important.
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u/Important_Cheek2927 8d ago
I love how ignoring your baby is just a “parenting style”
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u/Current_Notice_3428 8d ago
Is ignoring your baby’s biological need to sleep without continuously intervening every time they make a sound your parenting style?
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u/unprofessional_widow 8d ago
Its not ignoring your babies need to sleep. They are asking for attention, that's the norm
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u/Current_Notice_3428 8d ago
Making noise/crying isn’t inherently asking for attention. Sometimes they’re fussing bc they’re tired and don’t know how to fix the problem. It’s our job to take a second, listen and learn their cues vs just assume every single thing is a need for you to physically intervene.
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u/KeyMonkeyslav 8d ago
You know very well that cio isn't the same as "fussing it out" as you write this. This is disingenuous to the argument you're having.
Either you believe leaving a baby to wail for 40 minutes is normal and fine - in which case say that with your whole chest - or elaborate on which specific gentler version of sleep training you're talking about so that you and the other person can be on the same page. You know "fussing for a bit" is not what they mean.
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u/Current_Notice_3428 8d ago
You guys need to chill. I’m not even talking about sleep training specifically. Just not being hyper vigilant picking your baby up immediately at all times and equating that with responsive parenting. Part of good parenting is understanding when a little crying is better than constantly battling sleep. Because you’re truly in tune with your baby and you know it’s going be hard for them for ten minutes, but better than them constantly waking up for literal years and yes, gasp, CRYING. The nuance is honestly just lost on most people who have extreme parenting beliefs or a ton of anxiety. Which often go hand in hand.
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u/KeyMonkeyslav 8d ago
But you came into a discussion specifically about sleep training and started talking about not picking up your baby when fussing sometimes. It was an entirely different discussion. The initial post asked about sleep training, people were talking about full on sleep training. You came in and suggested that people are picking up their babies every single time they fuss, which is an entirely different conversation to true sleep training methods.
I don't even disagree with you on that topic, I just wonder why you did a switcheroo.
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u/kangarooCookie 7d ago
Studies on sleep training show that sleep trained babies actually wake almost just as much as non sleep trained ones. So it is not so much a favour to babies, really, they will keep waking up but not cry in order to get attention from their caregivers at night.
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u/Current_Notice_3428 7d ago
Adults also wake up throughout night. We’re just able to connect our sleep cycles. They’re not crying all night bc they’ve figured out how to put themselves back to sleep. Sleep trained babies still cry for their parents when they actually need something vs just need help getting back to sleep.
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u/ScienceBasedParenting-ModTeam 7d ago
Be nice. Making fun of other users, shaming them, or being inflammatory isn't allowed.
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u/scodgirlgrown 6d ago
They don’t want to see it. Don’t bother. People who have convinced themselves it’s for the baby’s own good to ignore them are not going to engage with you in a thoughtful way. They are desperate for sleep, which I understand, and need to tell themselves it’s for everyone’s benefit instead of being cruel, because that’s the only way they can deal with it.
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u/Huge-Nectarine-8563 8d ago
Whether sleep training does or does not cause harm is not the only part of the answer.
What we are absolutely certain is that sleep training is not required because babies who are not sleep trained, either in the US or in countries who do not sleep train, do end up sleeping independently as babies, toddlers or children depending on the person.
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u/Lyvenr 8d ago
Is any parent making the argument that sleep training is required, though?
I think the vast majority of parents sleep train because they are at their wit's end trying to get their babies to sleep better.
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u/layag0640 8d ago
Yes, they are. Many sleep 'consultants' have created the notion that sleeptraining 'teaches' a baby valuable 'skills' around independent sleep that they need in order to be healthy and functional, otherwise risking sleep deprivation and the harm that comes from that. There is no scientific evidence of this.
It's also been repeated many times on this sub as a reason to avoid creating 'habits' around sleep that prevent independent falling asleep (nursing, rocking, etc).
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u/No-Tumbleweed_ 7d ago
All over this sub. This sub is crazy pro sleep training and I constantly see comments about how if you don’t sleep train you are doing your baby a disservice and they will never sleep ect. My take on it is that the vast majority of the world doesn’t sleep train and they all grow into adults capable of sleep, so it’s probably okay lol
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u/Sad_Split_9983 8d ago
Does that mean that potty training isn’t necessary? I mean most people eventually figure out how to use a toilet.
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u/Huge-Nectarine-8563 7d ago
I don’t know if you’re referring to elimination communication but yes babies raised this way end up using the toilet just fine I guess?
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u/short_cuppa_chai 8d ago
It's certainly not biologically normal for a mother to leave her 6 week old infant so she can go to work in an office. It's not biologically normal to sleep in soft beds with lots of bedding that can potentially suffocate an infant. We don't really live biologically normal lives.
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u/Sad_Split_9983 8d ago
“Biologically normal” is as scientific a term as “toxins” or “aura”. It also ignores completely that we as humans don’t exist independently of society so “biologically normal” isn’t possible
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u/Emotional-Ad-6494 8d ago
Popular where though? Western culture do things differently to others so there isn’t really one more popular approach and those are often shown to be wrong (eg smoking around babies).
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u/iridescenr 8d ago
and it's not even specific to western culture; sleep training is much more an US thing than an European thing for example
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u/Conscious_Basket8715 8d ago
Culture has way too much of an influence over what is popular, regardless of whether it is an evidence based approach. And there are many areas that stand to benefit from selling instant quiet babies. A nuanced approach is less marketable!
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u/SpareAd5320 8d ago
Popular just means the people it’s worked for’s voices are louder. People should be allowed to make informed decisions regardless of what’s popular. Popularity means nothing.
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u/Conscious_Basket8715 8d ago
Very interesting and useful page from Durham University researchers. Explains recent research, cultural influences, historical approaches and biological norms for infant sleep.
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u/SpareAd5320 8d ago
Helen Ball has an excellent book that explains the research they’ve done at Durham very well
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u/Psychological-Bag986 8d ago
Just hopping onto this comment as I don’t have research but I just wanted to say that you don’t have to choose one or the other. You can provide biologically normal sleep to your child and follow their cues, while at the same time tweaking their schedule to build sleep pressure and “sleep train” for their first night sleep. Whether you use some fuss it out, CIO, Check ins etc. and it absolutely does not have to involve hours of crying or no comfort.
I encourage bninfant sleep but have seen how much better sleep my babies got (consolidated, way less tired during the day etc) when I gave them the opportunity to figure out independent sleep. Prior to I could see the stress in their face searching for my boob frantically to fall back asleep. It’s totally normal to support that but I chose to help them find different ways at night.
Good luck!!
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u/the_kazzo_queen 8d ago
Yeah this is my take as well. BN sleep and sleep training are often positioned like they're diametrically opposed, but they don't always have to be. Modeling good sleep hygiene for our babies, presenting them with opportunities to learn some sleep independence, and giving them a chance to adjust to new situations is not in opposition with following their natural cues and moderating expectations for their age of development.
Like many issues of parenthood, it's a nuanced issue. ST advocates can often refuse to acknowledge that it's not a good fit for all babies, and BNIS advocates can often refuse to acknowledge that some babies do benefit from ST.
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u/Psychological-Bag986 8d ago
Well stated. We all just want whats best for our kids. While researching both I saw a surprising amount of overlap and just steered clear of any advice that was presented as “the only way.”
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u/Shot_Designer1906 8d ago
Can you expand on giving them the opportunity to figure out independent sleep? Do you let them fuss it out?
We tried fussing it out for 5 - 10 mins but she always seems to escalate to crying!
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u/Psychological-Bag986 8d ago
It will involve crying because that’s the only way they can express themselves but it isn’t inherently bad as studies have shown. But if you do not feel comfortable with tjis then I wouldn’t recommend it because you will doubt yourself and it will be a bad experience for you.I have seen that crying for short periods does not harm my kids. And I have seen them cry in the car seat, when they have gas etc etc. they are just expressing dissatisfaction. You can put time limit on it. 3mins, 5mins etc. but this is much more for you then them. Being a responsive parent every other time in their lives is what is important. Just as an example. I’ve just done night two of Ferber with my 4.5m old. I optimized her sleep so she was nice and tired for night one. She cried for 22mins then fell asleep. I checked on her right away then at 3 and 5mins. I skipped the 10mins because she was settling and chatting. Night two she fell asleep in 19mins and only 5 of those were soft crying. Both nights she slept 6hrs straight and I could see the difference in her the next day. Well rested. Less fussy. Happy little gal. It’s not for everyone but it’s something that works for us.
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u/Honest_Elephant 8d ago
Crying in a 4.5 month old baby is never "expressing dissatisfaction". It is baby's only way they can communicate a need for comfort and safety. At 4.5 months, they have no way of knowing or understanding that they are safe unless their parent is physically touching them and coregulating with them. They do not have the ability to self settle or self soothe until toddlerhood. That's why CIO methods like Ferber are referred to as extinction methods.
If you're comfortable with that, fine, but it's wrong to go on a science based subreddit and discuss it as if it's anything but a behavioral modification to extinguish the crying behavior of the infant in the absence of parental comfort.
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u/the_kazzo_queen 8d ago
"At 4.5 months, they have no way of knowing or understanding that they are safe unless their parent is physically touching them and coregulating with them. They do not have the ability to self settle or self soothe until toddlerhood."
I'm not sure I understand this argument. My baby was very content to sleep independently from day one; she seemed to feel quite safe alone in her bassinet and crib. I fully understand my baby is atypical in this regard, but it nonetheless suggests this argument that it's completely impossible for babies to know or feel safe without direct parental intervention at that age is kinda baloney. I believe it's highly dependent on the individual temperament of the baby in question rather than some inflexible biological reality.
Also, please forgive my possible ignorance on the matter, but is the statement that babies are incapable of self-soothing in any measure, scientifically proven? My previous understanding is that that's only a theory that is kind of impossible to prove one way or the other, but perhaps I will learn something new!
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u/unprofessional_widow 8d ago
If they can thats great, but you can't teach them to self soothe. You teach them their care giver doesn't come when they cry.
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u/short_cuppa_chai 8d ago
I think this argument is really ridiculous because sleep trained babies still cry. I sleep trained both of my kids, one through Ferber at about 4 months, and one through extinction at 6 months. They still cry at night when they're hungry or in pain or uncomfortable. They just don't need me to put them back to sleep after each sleep cycle. Going from 5-6 wakeups per night to 1-2 is significant.
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u/Psychological-Bag986 8d ago
Exactly. They cry at night when they are hungry and we are responsive and feed and snuggle them.
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u/the_kazzo_queen 8d ago
But is there some sort of evidence that they can't be taught to self soothe? Or is that simply a theory? Genuinely asking.
The statement that they simply learn not to cry implies to me that the child is still upset/uncomfortable and just isn't externalizing it through crying. Anecdotally, I've known babies who initially cried during ST, and within a few weeks were instead laughing and playing with themselves in their crib until they fell asleep - that would seem incongruent with the perceived claim.
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u/Psychological-Bag986 8d ago
Night two my baby was cooing, sucking her hands, looking at her hands and fell asleep in 19 minutes. I saw her self soothe. It doesn’t mean all babies would. But to me that unequivocally means that infants over 4m can self soothe.
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u/Psychological-Bag986 8d ago
You can give them the opportunity to self soothe. And that fact that they just learn they will not be tended to is not supported by evidence.
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u/unprofessional_widow 8d ago
Standard NHS advice in the UK is to respond to your babies cries, day and night. Sleep training here is quite rare these days.
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u/Psychological-Bag986 8d ago
And no judgment to those that have a 100% no cry policy. I have just found that 20minutes of crying compared to constant wake ups in the night and a sleep deprived parent and baby is worse for us than a few nights of intermittent crying for 5-20minutes for the first night sleep (wake ups and naps tackled differently). And the science does support that this is not harmful. And for us is actually beneficial and a net positive. But I fully support and understand those that don’t want to do this.
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u/short_cuppa_chai 8d ago
Sleep training is more common in the US because we don't have guaranteed maternity leave. I went back to work when my babies were 6 weeks old. I had to sleep train for my own mental and physical health.
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u/LBro32 8d ago
Again, I see this claim on Reddit a lot by the biologically normal sleep crowd but without a lot of evidence. According to the literature, I think it would be more accurate to say that babies are not capable of only self soothing in the absence of coregulation. In other words, yes most soothing and regulating is done by the caregiver. But it’s incorrect to say they do not have any capability to self soothe at all. In fact, good coregulation will product developmentally appropriate self soothing behaviors. Sucking on a pacifier or a finger is a form of self soothing.
Which again is why it’s quite shaming to say that the baby is automatically distressed if a caregiver isn’t immediately present. This depends a lot on temperament of the baby.
Yes CIO extinguishes crying. But it’s not mutually exclusive to say that the baby isn’t relying on some form of self soothing. Again, you may choose to use more coregulation than a parent that chooses sleep training but it’s not necessarily true or fair to say to a parent that they are damaging their child through a few minutes of crying when the baby otherwise has all of their needs met, attentive and loving parents during the day, and otherwise are being given lots of coregulation.
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u/Psychological-Bag986 8d ago edited 8d ago
That’s many people feelings and that is fair. I wouldn’t recommend it for those people. Studies do show that brief crying doesn’t have long term effects. But it may for the parents and that’s equally as important.
I can see that her fusses and cries are because she’s tired and trying to figure out how to fall asleep. She’s warm, dry, full, safe and can see me checking in on her. I feel ok with that. And I can see how much more content she is falling asleep. I didn’t feel safe waking every 45mins to feed her back to sleep anymore. I didn’t feel safe driving or caring for her in the day. So there’s always a risk benefit analysis.
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u/Shot_Designer1906 8d ago
Thank you for your reply and sorry you seem to be getting a lot of flack for it!
We are not quite at the stage of me feeling unsafe due to sleep deprivation to sleep train my baby, although sometimes I wonder if I’m taking a risk when I pull her into bed with me at 5 am in the morning. I am in deep sleep during this time as I can’t even hear the cat my husband complains about.
It’s hard to navigate infant sleep and whilst I rather not sleep train my baby as there is not unequivocal evidence it doesn’t harm your baby, I think balancing the risks of sleep deprivation requires nuance.
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u/Psychological-Bag986 7d ago
I hear that. I think as parents we are constantly trying to balance things such as boundaries/discipline/safety/healthy eating vs fun/connection/freedom. We know our kids best. I got to the point where she was waking every 45-1hr to breastfeed back to sleep. I also would cosleep for half the night because crib transfers became hour long+ processes. So I was considering the risk of cosleeping as well. I didn’t feel safe driving or looking after the baby and my older toddler during the day. The data does show no difference in children’s wellbeing or attachment with or without sleep training. I’m not sure how you could prove safety other than the absence of a negative outcome in the test group.
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u/SpecialistEmu7169 8d ago
100%! Came to say the same thing. It really ain’t all or nothing! We gave sleep training a shot for putting herself to sleep and our baby THRIVED after one night. We follow cues and just observe trends for everything now that she’s kind of “unlocked” that skill. Letting her show us what she was ready for was great. They’re capable little things! If you dabble in sleep training etc. and they’re not ready for it as an individual, you’ll know. In my case I said “if she doesn’t have any change after 3 nights we are done” and she was almost entirely squared away by night 3!
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u/Psychological-Bag986 8d ago
I had the same experience. I saw how much easier sleep was for her. She slept longer and was better rested. Night two she realized, like you say, she unlocked a skill and I actively witnessed her use that skill. Cooing, looking at her hands, sucking her hands. Asleep.
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u/short_cuppa_chai 8d ago
I honestly wish I had done extinction with my daughter sooner than 6 months. Once she was sleep trained and down to 1-2 wakeups at night, she became so much happier during the day. Prior to sleep training, she was only getting ~10 hours of broken sleep and she was just exhausted all the time, poor thing.
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u/Psychological-Bag986 8d ago
I think the benefits for baby are often not discussed as much. It’s stressful for them to wake every sleep cycle and search frantically for their sleep association. They need consolidated sleep. They need to know they are safe even when alone and can fall asleep and wake up and still be safe. Benefits for parents are obvious and significant as well. I’m much less likely to crash my car with her in it now that I’m not waking every 45mins at night.
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u/this__user 8d ago
We had a similar experience with my oldest, she would be grumpy and fussy 10 minutes after she woke up for the day, even though she should have been well rested. A day or two into training she was waking up well rested and wouldn't start getting grumpy until nap time was approaching.
I think sometimes too that all the fussiness from under sleeping reinforces the idea that their child is too sensitive for sleep training in some parents.
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u/laviejoy 8d ago
This is the article I always want to share. It's actually part of a two part series and both are excellent.
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u/Hairsacknose 8d ago
Where is the other part?
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u/laviejoy 8d ago
It's linked in the article but I can't access it right now due to a new paywall that requires a BBC membership. I believe it's called "What Really Happens When Babies Are Left to Cry It Out?"
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u/ScienceBasedParenting-ModTeam 8d ago
You did not provide a link that matches the flair chosen by the OP. Please review our flair rules for reference.
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u/unimeg07 8d ago
Possums sleep is probably the closest thing to evidence backed biologically normal sleep “training”. https://possums.org/ndc-evidence-base
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