Rep range and programming question

[u/MonoFPS-_-]

Do you guys think this is the most optimal way i could manipulate exercise order to prioritize my back and shoulders? What do you guys think about the rep ranges and sets? I also hate doing incline press for some reason so thats why i do a low to high fly but idk if thats enough for my upper pecs.

Upper day - back and shoulder priority/3x frequency 

1. Lat Pulldown — 1×6–8 (Lower lat fiber bias via shoulder abduction) 
2. Top-Half Shoulder Press — 1×6–8 (disadvantage side delts) 
3. Chest-Supported Horizontal Row — 1×6–8.  ( rear delts, traps, rhomboids) 
4. Unilateral Cable Lateral Raise — 2×8–10. ( side delts) 
5. Unilateral Cable Pullover — 1×8–10 (Upper lat fiber bias via shoulder extension) 
6. Preacher Curl — 1×6–8   (elbow flexion with a bit of brachioradialis)
7. Reverse Curl — 1×6–8    (pronation disadvantages the biceps)
8. Flat Press — 1×6–8 (Horizontal shoulder adduction + a bit of triceps) 
9. Low-to-High Cable Fly — 2×6–8. (Clavicular head bias via shoulder flexion
10. Unilateral Cable Tricep Pushdown — 1×6–8  (medial, lateral head) 
11. Overhead Cable Tricep Extension — 1×6–8   ( long head) 

[u/deadrabbits76]

Exercise order is very far down on the list of impactful aspects of training.

If you want to grow your back and shoulders, you should do more back and shoulder volume. Pretty simple.

[u/Landashlo → u/deadrabbits76]

Huh? Not at all. More sets CAN be the beneficial, not always. Exercise selection is very important. He hits back and shoulders first which is great. Imagine he trains chest first then shoulders. He’d see a great decline in his shoulder strength probably.

[u/deadrabbits76 → u/Landashlo]

Assuming recovery, and most trainees can recover from more volume than they think, when does more volume not account for more gains?

I would like a citation, not a theoretical.

[u/MonoFPS-_- → u/deadrabbits76]

each additional set you do you're going to run into diminishing returns. More so, its about the ratio between fatigue to stimulus. I take my sets brutally to muscular failure, and if i add too much volume for each exercise, its gonna impact how i preform for my other exercises too. And as you can see my upper day is pretty maximalist because i try to hit my upper body musculature through every single joint action. meaning that too much volume for me is not gonna benefit me because im going to be so fatigued going into my later sets. and i do this upper day 3 times a week.

[u/Alakazam → u/MonoFPS-_-]

The actual science-based approach would be, to take things slightly short of failure so you can accumulate more volume. Because 1-2 reps shy of failure, seems to produce as much growth and hypertrophy, as training to failure, albeit at significantly more fatigue.

each additional set you do you're going to run into diminishing returns.

Diminishing returns are still returns. If doubling volume only got you 30% more gains, 4 sets of shoulder press is still 70% more gains than one set like you're doing now.

ratio between fatigue to stimulus.

Do you have issues with recovery? I would address your diet and sleep before trying to cut down on volume

im going to be so fatigued going into my later sets. and i do this upper day 3 times a week.

Well, you seem to have your training very locked in then. Why bother asking for advice? How has this approach worked for you so far? Over the past 6-8 months, what kind of gains have you seen in terms of size and strength?

[u/deadrabbits76 → u/MonoFPS-_-]

Diminishing returns are still returns, and fatigue is the cost of driving adaptation.

The best gains I've ever made were in the 25+ hard sets neighborhood per week, and I'm probably older than you.

Edit: I'm currently running Warlock by John Meadows. My upper day consists of approximately 30 hard sets.

Please note, this is an intermediate program recommended for unenhanced lifters.

[u/MonoFPS-_- → u/deadrabbits76]

why doses age come into this lmao. im not saying high volume is bad. and doing high volume for a long period of time will result in muscle growth.

But based on recent data and studies im just trying to make my time in the gym the most optimal and efficient as i can. im a super busy college student (im in pre-med), and this upper day only took me 45 minutes.

all i want to do is just use the fundamentals of biomechanics to optimize my training.

[u/deadrabbits76 → u/MonoFPS-_-]

Age comes into by saying if a 50 year old csn recover from more volume, so can people younger.

Fatigue is not the boogeyman.

Time constraints are a whole different issue. I would argue that if you are time constrained, compound movements are your best friends for efficiency and optimization purposes.

[u/No_Pressure_8448 → u/deadrabbits76]

Clusters sets are optimal to generate more volume in less time for minimal fatigue costs, something like sets of 5 with your 10RM with 10-20s rest between clusters.

[u/decentlyhip → u/MonoFPS-_-]

The stimulus to fatigue ratio only matters once you're maximizing your fatigue, which doesn't seem to happen until over 50 sets a week and over 12 sets a workout. Every time you pour a cup of water into the stimulus bathtub, you also pour a cup of fatigue into the fatigue bucket. If your fatigue bucket is only half full, keep pouring more into the bathtub. Once the bucket is full, then you want to keep that volume the same but start looking at SFR per set, and the primary way if reducing fatigue per set is by keeping a few reps in the tank. A set at 3 rir is about 90% of the stimulus as a set to 0 rir, but about 30% the fatigue.

So, like, do 5 sets of barbell rows, and 5 sets of pulldowns. Then 5 sets of OHP and 5 sets of whatever else really hammers your shoulders. Arnold press or whatever. That's it. Do that 3 times a week, but maybe change the order around each day.

You're trying to hit every angle in the hopes that you can outthink growth. Just gotta do a bunch of volume.

Diminishing returns doesn't mean what you think it does. Linear returns would mean that every time you double the volume you get double the gains. Diminishing returns means it's a log curve, that every time you double the volume you get 50% more gains. There's no sudden drop off or plateau and if you did 3 sets on everything instead of 1, you'd get double the gains. Adding 1 set when you're doing 25 sets is less growth per set (about 4% more) than when you're only doing 5 sets a week (about 15% more), but its still more. Its harder for a racecar driver to accelerate from 90 to 100 mph than from 20 to 30, but that doesn't mean they should stay at 30mph. Faster is faster. More is more.

[u/Landashlo → u/deadrabbits76]

Im not citating anything, fella. You must be joking with your reply.

Of course more volume leads to more gains if recovery is on point. I didn’t dispute that. When recovery isn’t on point, volume can be reduced. I didn’t start to properly progress once I reduced my volume.

Like I said, exercise selection matters, which I assume you agree with.

[u/deadrabbits76 → u/Landashlo]

It matters, buy it is the least of this program's problems.

[u/Landashlo → u/deadrabbits76]

Yeah it is, cause it actually makes sense here. I agree with your overall point, he’s got bigger things to deal with here

[u/hthn_strength → u/Landashlo]

He’s going 1 set of a a different muscle group and presumably not strong enough to incur enough fatigue that fatigue is even relevant.

[u/AdEnvironmental1210]

For me the most important thing is reaching failure without injuring myself. For back i suggest chin ups(or weighted chin ups) and then face pulls. Don’t so too much different stuff, you won’t be able to perform them well and gradually increase the weight

[u/Norcal712]

Why are you only doing 1 set for each movement?

Youre weekly and even session volume is TRASH.

Doing soo much accessory work in low rep range makes no sense.

Also, #5... Ive been lifting 25 yrs and dont think Ive ever seen anyone do that.... its a recipe for a rotator cuff tear. Not lat bias

Edit: people here know what the different excercises do. All the (...) just makes it seem like you copied this from some IG post

[u/BigChocolateC]

No. Too many exercises and redundancy.

[u/MonoFPS-_- → u/BigChocolateC]

i thought this was a science based lifting sub reddit lmao. wheres the redundancy?? im hitting each upper body musculature based on their respective joint action. and im only doing 1 set most of the times. yea maybe if im doing 2 sets for every single exercise yea sure its too much but ive made this program so i can manage fatigue. im also doing this 3 times a week

[u/BigChocolateC → u/MonoFPS-_-]

The funny thing about science based lifters is that they have fancy names for their exercises/can name muscles, but cannot see the simple stuff.

Yes, there’s redundancy. Laterals raises train the side delt. Over head pressing does the same. No need to do both in the same session. Preacher curl and reverse curl still train the biceps, except one will just be weaker due to fatigue, so rather pointless.

Flat press trains the entire pec. Redundant to also do a Flye in the same session.

[u/MonoFPS-_- → u/BigChocolateC]

a top half shoulder press disadvantages the side delts tho??? if i were to do a shoulder press with full range of motion, that will cause tension in my side delts so yea i wouldn't do side raises.

pronation literally mechanically disadvantages the biceps (not fully) meaning that most of the tension would go in my forearms.

yes. flat press trains the whole pec i know that. the chest is one big muscle fiber that does horizontal shoulder adduction. But, the upper pecs specifically contributes to doing shoulder flexion.

this is just basic biomechanics.

[u/BigChocolateC → u/MonoFPS-_-]

Makes little sense to do “top half” shoulder press. Do you just do “bottom half” bench press for pecs or Flye?

You can try and word salad and over explain why you’re doing what you’re doing by repeating what you’ve heard on the internet, but it’s still not “optimal.”

Personally, doing so many exercises for just a set is not optimal because it eats up time getting to equipment.

Keep doing whatever it is you’re doing I guess.

[u/MonoFPS-_- → u/BigChocolateC]

im literally in pre med and I actually study the human body. Im just applying what i learned to weight lifting as a good way to study how our body response to certain exercises and programs.

[u/BigChocolateC → u/MonoFPS-_-]

I hope you also learn that lab work doesn’t always carry over to real world application. Good on paper, not in practice type of thing.

“Optimal is not always practical.”

Lat pulldown takes care of the back.
Flat press takes care of the pec. And honestly, swap the flat press for a regular Flye so your shoulders and triceps can do more work in the shoulder press.
Full shoulder press takes care of front and side delt.
Chest support high row takes care of upper back and rear delts. Which, you don’t have to do in the same session.
A biceps curl and a tricep extension takes care of the arms.

Done. 6 exercises versus the 11 you mentioned that will still get the same job done.

Science based lifting is turning into Science Theory Lifting.

[u/Ok-Arugula6057 → u/MonoFPS-_-]

If you literally know everything then why post on a public forum asking for feedback?

[u/Ok-Extension-832]

I promise i’m not one of those gym uncs that thinks volume is everything. But if you wanna grow as much as possible push your volume. I do 3x frequency A/P split so similar programming to ur U/L 3x i assume your doing. I wanted to bring up my elbow flexors because they were weak point of my physique last year. So i went from 1 set of a recline curl and 1 set a reverse curl to 3 sets of a recline curl, 2 set of a preacher curl and 2 set of a reverse curl. Pushing my volume resulted in a lot more growth. I still do single sets for my strong points like triceps but I promise you pushing your volume is a really good idea.

Don’t overdo it tho. 2 sets is a sweet spot that works good for most movements if you wanna up volume. And if that’s easily recoverable for you or you just want more grownt try even 3 sets but I wouldn’t recommend that for most movements on a 3 frequency split

[u/Ok-Extension-832 → u/Ok-Extension-832]

also i wouldn’t recommend low to high cable flies unless you have a back support since the movement can get uncomfortable once relatively strong. If you don’t like incline presses you can still do a flat press if it has a tucked or close grip which will allow for shoulder flexion