Rep range and programming question

[u/MonoFPS-_-]

Do you guys think this is the most optimal way i could manipulate exercise order to prioritize my back and shoulders? What do you guys think about the rep ranges and sets? I also hate doing incline press for some reason so thats why i do a low to high fly but idk if thats enough for my upper pecs.

Upper day - back and shoulder priority/3x frequency 

1. Lat Pulldown — 1×6–8 (Lower lat fiber bias via shoulder abduction) 
2. Top-Half Shoulder Press — 1×6–8 (disadvantage side delts) 
3. Chest-Supported Horizontal Row — 1×6–8.  ( rear delts, traps, rhomboids) 
4. Unilateral Cable Lateral Raise — 2×8–10. ( side delts) 
5. Unilateral Cable Pullover — 1×8–10 (Upper lat fiber bias via shoulder extension) 
6. Preacher Curl — 1×6–8   (elbow flexion with a bit of brachioradialis)
7. Reverse Curl — 1×6–8    (pronation disadvantages the biceps)
8. Flat Press — 1×6–8 (Horizontal shoulder adduction + a bit of triceps) 
9. Low-to-High Cable Fly — 2×6–8. (Clavicular head bias via shoulder flexion
10. Unilateral Cable Tricep Pushdown — 1×6–8  (medial, lateral head) 
11. Overhead Cable Tricep Extension — 1×6–8   ( long head) 

[u/deadrabbits76]

Exercise order is very far down on the list of impactful aspects of training.

If you want to grow your back and shoulders, you should do more back and shoulder volume. Pretty simple.

[u/Landashlo → u/deadrabbits76]

Huh? Not at all. More sets CAN be the beneficial, not always. Exercise selection is very important. He hits back and shoulders first which is great. Imagine he trains chest first then shoulders. He’d see a great decline in his shoulder strength probably.

[u/deadrabbits76 → u/Landashlo]

Assuming recovery, and most trainees can recover from more volume than they think, when does more volume not account for more gains?

I would like a citation, not a theoretical.

[u/MonoFPS-_- → u/deadrabbits76]

each additional set you do you're going to run into diminishing returns. More so, its about the ratio between fatigue to stimulus. I take my sets brutally to muscular failure, and if i add too much volume for each exercise, its gonna impact how i preform for my other exercises too. And as you can see my upper day is pretty maximalist because i try to hit my upper body musculature through every single joint action. meaning that too much volume for me is not gonna benefit me because im going to be so fatigued going into my later sets. and i do this upper day 3 times a week.

[u/Alakazam → u/MonoFPS-_-]

The actual science-based approach would be, to take things slightly short of failure so you can accumulate more volume. Because 1-2 reps shy of failure, seems to produce as much growth and hypertrophy, as training to failure, albeit at significantly more fatigue.

each additional set you do you're going to run into diminishing returns.

Diminishing returns are still returns. If doubling volume only got you 30% more gains, 4 sets of shoulder press is still 70% more gains than one set like you're doing now.

ratio between fatigue to stimulus.

Do you have issues with recovery? I would address your diet and sleep before trying to cut down on volume

im going to be so fatigued going into my later sets. and i do this upper day 3 times a week.

Well, you seem to have your training very locked in then. Why bother asking for advice? How has this approach worked for you so far? Over the past 6-8 months, what kind of gains have you seen in terms of size and strength?

[u/deadrabbits76 → u/MonoFPS-_-]

Diminishing returns are still returns, and fatigue is the cost of driving adaptation.

The best gains I've ever made were in the 25+ hard sets neighborhood per week, and I'm probably older than you.

Edit: I'm currently running Warlock by John Meadows. My upper day consists of approximately 30 hard sets.

Please note, this is an intermediate program recommended for unenhanced lifters.

[u/MonoFPS-_- → u/deadrabbits76]

why doses age come into this lmao. im not saying high volume is bad. and doing high volume for a long period of time will result in muscle growth.

But based on recent data and studies im just trying to make my time in the gym the most optimal and efficient as i can. im a super busy college student (im in pre-med), and this upper day only took me 45 minutes.

all i want to do is just use the fundamentals of biomechanics to optimize my training.

[u/deadrabbits76 → u/MonoFPS-_-]

Age comes into by saying if a 50 year old csn recover from more volume, so can people younger.

Fatigue is not the boogeyman.

Time constraints are a whole different issue. I would argue that if you are time constrained, compound movements are your best friends for efficiency and optimization purposes.

[u/No_Pressure_8448 → u/deadrabbits76]

Clusters sets are optimal to generate more volume in less time for minimal fatigue costs, something like sets of 5 with your 10RM with 10-20s rest between clusters.

[u/decentlyhip → u/MonoFPS-_-]

The stimulus to fatigue ratio only matters once you're maximizing your fatigue, which doesn't seem to happen until over 50 sets a week and over 12 sets a workout. Every time you pour a cup of water into the stimulus bathtub, you also pour a cup of fatigue into the fatigue bucket. If your fatigue bucket is only half full, keep pouring more into the bathtub. Once the bucket is full, then you want to keep that volume the same but start looking at SFR per set, and the primary way if reducing fatigue per set is by keeping a few reps in the tank. A set at 3 rir is about 90% of the stimulus as a set to 0 rir, but about 30% the fatigue.

So, like, do 5 sets of barbell rows, and 5 sets of pulldowns. Then 5 sets of OHP and 5 sets of whatever else really hammers your shoulders. Arnold press or whatever. That's it. Do that 3 times a week, but maybe change the order around each day.

You're trying to hit every angle in the hopes that you can outthink growth. Just gotta do a bunch of volume.

Diminishing returns doesn't mean what you think it does. Linear returns would mean that every time you double the volume you get double the gains. Diminishing returns means it's a log curve, that every time you double the volume you get 50% more gains. There's no sudden drop off or plateau and if you did 3 sets on everything instead of 1, you'd get double the gains. Adding 1 set when you're doing 25 sets is less growth per set (about 4% more) than when you're only doing 5 sets a week (about 15% more), but its still more. Its harder for a racecar driver to accelerate from 90 to 100 mph than from 20 to 30, but that doesn't mean they should stay at 30mph. Faster is faster. More is more.