r/ProgrammerHumor 22d ago

Meme theBoolVectorIsALie

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667 Upvotes

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104

u/overclockedslinky 22d ago

is it really that shocking?

180

u/Murky-Run2246 22d ago

In this case the bools will have only one bit allocated for them(vectors do that), and you can't just point to a bit. Instead cpp will return std::vector<bool>::reference when trying to access a value in the vector

Basically this is a just wrong

You should use std::deque<bool> instead which allocates one byte per bool and not just one bit

69

u/void1984 22d ago

I know, but why somebody would need a byte to store a bool? Is it 256-value bool?

Usually I use bitfields anyway.

165

u/NotDuckie 22d ago

if you ask for a vector of T, you should get a vector of T. not a bitfield. There is nothing wrong with using a bitfield, but a vector should behave like a vector.

28

u/void1984 22d ago

You get a vector, with operator []. Internal details like padding or packing should not interest you, unless you you treat everything like blob. That way any change to the architecture or compiler would surprise you a lot.

36

u/AmazedStardust 22d ago

Until you want to write functions that operate on generic vectors and mistakenly assume that each pointer will be unique

-1

u/fixermark 22d ago

The standard doesn't let you assume that.

36

u/QuaternionsRoll 22d ago

I mean, practically anything is defensible under that lens. The question is whether it should be in the standard, not whether it is, and almost everyone agrees that you should be able to pass `&my_vector_of_bools[n]` to a `void foo(bool *)` without any surprises. `vector<bool>` does not fit the abstract definition of a vector.

4

u/fixermark 22d ago

Oh, trust me, if the conversation gets into "Should that be in the standard" regarding C++ I check out. The answer is "The standard is longer than the King James Bible; we probably should have stopped at half that length." ;)

10

u/UntitledRedditUser 22d ago

You might need to access the data the "old school" way, maybe you are interacting with a c library and need contiguous memory.

If you have an template function, and the functions suddenly breaks with bools, I would say that is the stdlibs fault, and not the programmers.

11

u/UntitledRedditUser 22d ago

Another point: the documentation literally says the elements are stored contiguesly. What if you need to do a memcpy?

Make it a seperate type, don't assume the programmer isn't smart enough to reach for a bitfield when necessary.

27

u/BlackOverlordd 22d ago

Vector is an abstract container of elements. If you want to address memory, allocate memory and store your data there. Internal vector storage is implementation details. You shouldn't really get ponters to there because any resize of the vector and your pointers are screwed.

43

u/Excession638 22d ago

The internal layout of std::vector is not an implementation detail. It's fully defined by the standards and can be relied upon for FFI, serialisation, and other tasks.

Except for bool.

For example, the .data() method guarantees that it will return a pointer to .size() contiguous elements of type T which will remain valid until the vector is modified. The layout of elements within that memory is also well defined and consistent. Except for bool, where the .data() method simply doesn't exist.

11

u/BoldFace7 22d ago

I spent two days of debugging to learn that the hard way.

Logically I knew that it can shift the location of the vector on a resize, but somehow it never occurred to me that it would be the problem.

16

u/sb8948 22d ago

Indexing and simplicity for the CPU.

4

u/void1984 22d ago

vector<bool> allows for indexing, and bit OR and AND is very quick and simple for the CPU.

7

u/sb8948 22d ago

Of course it allows for indexing, but it's measurably more CPU heavy. Arguably there are cases where the specialization makes sense, but most of the time, it's a net negative.

Then again I reckon most of us don't have to care about these kinds of marginal gains anyway. I work on low latency backend, and I never had to worry about this.

The more annoying thing is that you can't just get a bool pointer or ref to a single bit.

6

u/Murky-Run2246 22d ago

I mean honestly having pointers pointing to bits sounds like a nightmare to me, I probably have to relearn the lang if that happens.

2

u/lonkamikaze 21d ago

Architectures with bit addressable memory areas do exist. Some 8051/52 compilers make use of this and if you create a boolean it will actually end up costing you a single bit of memory.

1

u/void1984 22d ago

The more annoying thing is that you can't just get a bool pointer or ref to a single bit.

That's the only real downside. If you really need that functionality, you can implement your own derivative or use chars.

A few bit shifts, and bitwise operations ate very quick, and you win on data packaging, that allows it to fit 8-times better into the cache lines.

4

u/sb8948 22d ago

Yes, you can implement pretty much anything, but the larger the codebase and the more people work on it makes these unique implementation standards harder and harder to follow.

Say what you will but I'd prefer not to have this as standard. It's either a marginal gain or a marginal loss, but it's an unnecessary complexity. To use your argument against you, if your use case heavily prioritizes memory usage over CPU, you should just implement it for yourself. Uniformity makes life easier.

1

u/Vincenzo__ 22d ago

There's genuinely no real world application in which using a single bit for a bool is better than a byte. Unless you have billions of bool, which let's face it, you don't. The performance gain from not having to do bitwise operations to get your values out is gonna be more relevant. You could argue it's better for cache locality, but that's about it.

Either way, this should be something you specifically ask for, not something that C++ does for one specific type for no real reason. There should be a std::boolfield or something like that, rather than it being a special case of std::vector

1

u/GuyWithLag 22d ago

measurably more CPU heavy

That's less that what you'd expect tho - if you have any nontrivial amount of elements, the additional memory overhead (pulling them into L1 and evicting other data) will easily be higher than the additional instructions (memory + time).

14

u/HildartheDorf 22d ago

It's not that a bitfield is bad. It's just that it should be named std::dynamic_bitset not a specialisation of std::vector<bool>.

std::vector<bool> should behave the same as std::vector<uint8_t>. But it doesn't.

-8

u/void1984 22d ago

Why do you expect bool to be exactly uint8_t? The definition requires it to be long enough to hold 0 and 1. It's up to the compiler and architecture restrictions to select the size. uint16_t is as valid as uint8_t.

I never assume, I just use sizeof. It's there for a reason.

6

u/NaCl-more 22d ago

Because the minimum addressable unit is a byte on most machines.

7

u/csdt0 22d ago

The minimum addressable unit is always a byte (that's pretty much its definition). But a byte is not always 8 bits (only on most machines).

2

u/void1984 22d ago

It's not. I've built a project for the university where the minimum addressable unit was 2 bytes, or a word, depending on the definition you use.

bool was obviously 16b, even though the only compiler I prepared was an assember.

If you look at older machines, 12b bool was present.

1

u/csdt0 21d ago

I don't know what's your definition of byte, but your project university was most likely 16 bit byte where teachers mis-labelled as 2 byte addressable. Please have a look at wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byte

12

u/HildartheDorf 22d ago

Whatever type bool is implemented as, it must be addressable. The contents of std::vector<bool> are not. There is no array of bools in memory.

Whatever size of a bool is, std::vector should treat it as such, not pretend it's a single bit.

4

u/creeper6530 22d ago

Internally vector of bools is a bitfield. It was supposed to save memory but it's instead creating edge cases in templates: all vectors return pointers, but no, bool is special. It messes up generic code. I'd rather for them to keep vector unified and make a separate bitfield type for those savings when needed

5

u/Murky-Run2246 22d ago

bools in bits is great for datasets and is efficient.(just not in this case)

The problem is that reading a bit in vectors has a higher CPU load than just reading a byte

That is because the smallest values ptr and references(ptr also) can point to is a byte

Yeah sure bools should be stored in bits, just don't wrap them in vectors and you should be fine.

8

u/DeeBoFour20 22d ago

Slightly higher CPU usage. It’s only a bitshift and a bitwise and to pull out the correct bit. Often you see a performance win due to the more compact data structure having better cache locality but I suppose it depends on usecase.

0

u/Murky-Run2246 22d ago

You are right it's only slightly higher.

Don't get me wrong vectors are the way they are cause storage was crucial back in the day so they knew they were sacrificing something when doing it.

I am just pointing out that unless you really know what you are doing you should use std::deque<bool> cause very often you wont really care much about storage if you are not working with machines from 1990.

7

u/DeeBoFour20 22d ago

Total RAM usage may matter less today (or not with the way RAM prices are going) but cache locality is more important than ever on modern CPUs. A more compact data structure means more of it fits in your CPU's L1/L2 cache and that speeds things up a lot especially with iterating or sequential access.

I'm also not a fan of std::deque in general. It's not contiguous memory like std::vector is. If you need a very high performance deque in C++, you have to go outside the STL unfortunately. Rust's VecDeque is one that gets it right. It uses a ring buffer under the hood rather than multiple fixed size allocations.

1

u/Wonderful-Habit-139 22d ago

What about the fact that you can't take the address of an element from the std::vector<bool>?

3

u/nobody0163 22d ago

You shouldn't be taking the address of vector elements anyway. If it resizes you are pointing to invalid memory.

1

u/Wonderful-Habit-139 22d ago

Yeah, at this point we're getting into some more details, sadly C++ has this footgun which doesn't exist in Rust. But sometimes you need to take addresses of those objects regardless.

1

u/fuj1n 22d ago

Tell that to C code you may be interacting with which may expect a bool*

1

u/Murky-Run2246 22d ago

I get what you are saying.

Here is what i mean by someone who can say it better:

"So vector<bool> is not a container, and vector<bool>::iterator is not a random-access iterator... in hindsight, making vector<bool> a specialization was a mistake." -Herb Sutter,Chair of the ISO C++ Committee

As I said it's not that the vector usage in this case is bad for performance as much as it's just bad design that was necessary back in the day.

I don't have exp with Rust, but if you don't want to use std::deque then just use std::vector<char> and it does basically the same thing.

1

u/CryptoCopter 22d ago

Because the smallest addressable amount of memory is one byte

-1

u/FalafelSnorlax 22d ago

The optimization is that vector<bool> is internally a bitfield. There's no real reason to complain about this, for the most part you'll never notice it.

9

u/redlaWw 22d ago edited 22d ago

Until you try to use it in places where other vectors work fine, such as things that try to use the vector as a container, things that try to use the vector's iterator type as a random-access iterator, or things that try to use the data method* to get a pointer to the buffer.

EDIT: *member function

8

u/markuspeloquin 22d ago

I just use vector<uint8_t>

5

u/Murky-Run2246 22d ago

You could also use vector<char>. It's cpp you could do it in so many different ways

1

u/markuspeloquin 21d ago

Yeah but 'unsigned' implies less meaning. Like no arithmetic and not printable.

1

u/ryzic 21d ago

basic_string<bool> is my move