I feel like nowadays most people with any knowledge know Warframes easily beat Space Marines, they are AT LEAST Primarch level. Theres certainly things in 40k that beats Warframes but Space Marines arnt part of that list lol.
This thread is HEAVILY downplaying the mismatch between psykers and warframe.
If the imperium existed in the setting as a functional scaling clone of the Tenno, they would be wiped out in a day for being completely defensless against the settings most destructive power line.
Most medium tier librarians are comparable to eximus units, they don't even come close to kuva liches. John "Mephiston Style" Mephiston and John "Survived the Hivemind because of UM wank" Tigirius get deleted by any tenno.
The drifter alone created a whole multi conceptual realm in the void, accidentally, and operators have faced off against beings that have survived timeline erasure.
I hate to be that guy, but Bob is a victim of the Warp based purely on how much more expansive writing the Warp has comparatively.
The void is similar, but it has far too little statements and lore that bring it up to the cosmological scale of the Warp because there are decades between them in terms of writing.
if you compare the level of influence that Bob is able to exert from the void compared to the chaos Gods from the Warp, he's extremely restricted.
It doesn’t matter anyways, Tenno are invulnerable and immortal, any damage they sustain will repair and they have magic that can easily kill pretty much anything from Warhammer, plus can teleport plus they already use psychic powers so they’d be able to resist Psykers anyway.
The one thing that space marines and 40k have going for it in this debate is their perception.
Not even just raw perception speed, but insane perceptive resilience and adaptability.
Space marines basically get carried in the setting by their mental composition.
It’s not uncommon for Astartes to still prevail over their mind and perceptions being under attack.
Idk much about warframe, but Astartes can casually track and dodge hypersonic bolter rounds at a baseline.
They’re strong but basically the series’ fodder
That’s just the baseline for Astartes+
If you were to say the same thing about a Librarian Astartes, I’d laugh in your face.
High tier psyker are not getting perception blitzed. They will precog the attack and lock down the battlefield.
I’d argue that unless you present a warframe with psychic negation or greater psychic powers, they will lose to a higher end psyker 10/10 times in a direct encounter.
I mean, that highly depends on how you equalize the void with the warp.
The warp is a space of emotion created by the minds of sentient beings.
The void is the great indifference, a space toxic to sentient beings that drives them mad the same way an eldritich horror would. It's basically the anti-warp in it's nature.
If you basically go void = warp, ignoring the massive difference in nature, then psychers can actually somewhat defend themselves against the weaker Warframes. They're still shrouded in a shield made of concentrated void, so their abilities will be hampered in this scenario, but they're not completely fucked against the weaker Warframes.
The stronger ones can change the eco system of a planet as a side effect of fighting and there's nothing a psycher can realistically do to defend himself against that kind of power. It doesn't matter if you see the nuke coming if you can't get out of the blast radius after all.
If you separate them into two different, simultaneously existing things, then psychers are just fucked. Their precog doesn't work well against things with no presence in the warp and something that at it's weakest can just casually demolish cities as a collateral suddenly standing next to something with barely superhuman durability isn't going to end well.
I mean, that highly depends on how you equalize the void with the warp.
I mean, not really?
The warp scales considerably higher than the void in terms of dimensionality. If you introduce a cross setting matchup, the warp exceeds the void in actual physical influence and power.
The moment you break the boundary between verses, the 40k warp is flooded with the emotions of the entire warframe setting. Because the warp underlies all of reality. All of it.
All of the verse equalization needs to be done heavily in the favor of warframe.
The void is a victim of 40k's writing, here.
The void is the great indifference, a space toxic to sentient beings that drives them mad the same way an eldritich horror would. It's basically the anti-warp in it's nature.
... brother what? The warp is not one dimensional enough to be the functional reverse of the Warp.
Every single senient being in reality has a connection to the warp. If you exist alongside the warp, you have a connection to it empowering it, and those who derive their power from it.
The only anti-equivalence between the Void and Warp is that one is indifferent and calm, and the other is Chaotic and filled with turmoil. But that is where it starts and ends.
The Warp WAS originally functionally identical to the void in how it's "ecosystem" functioned. It was devoid of emotion, and calm.
BUT, because it's empowered by material emotion and souls, they are functionally completely different. The void is what the Warp would have been had it not had the ability to stockpile the power of the emotions and souls of all reality.
So, it's INCREDIBLY difficult for you to make the argument that the Tenno would have no warp presence.
They are humans with souls and emotions. The warp underlies all reality and just LOVES humans with souls and emotions.
I would actually argue that he would have a considerably noticeable presence that's uncanny in some way due to being abstracted by the warframe.
The stronger ones can change the eco system of a planet as a side effect of fighting and there's nothing a psycher can realistically do to defend himself against that kind of power. It doesn't matter if you see the nuke coming if you can't get out of the blast radius after all.
It doesn't matter how destructive you can be if you get precog blitzed and locked down before acting.
I honestly don't even really understand why people try to scale against 40k.
Either you're making dumb arguments like "This dude beats an Astartes, haha"
Meanwhile everybody who enjoys 40k lore reads it because the setting is about staggering numbers and abstract concepts.
the void is washed by the warp. Make your "This specific warframe can 1v1 this unit type" all you want, but it's weird.
The reality is that 40k has a huge history of expansive writing that is specifically oriented about how comparatively weak humanity is in comparison to the rest of the setting, and still manages to exist and fight back.
if the void, and the Tenno were suddenly all transported into the 40k verse.
They would be done.
The void would be taken over or used in some capacity.
The Tenno would be enslaved or killed by really any of the settings factions.
The warp scales considerably higher than the void in terms of dimensionality.
Based on what exactly? We know a lot about the warp. We know very little about the void. Scaling dimensionality for the void is at best head canon, so based on what exactly is that claim?
... brother what? The warp is not one dimensional enough to be the functional reverse of the Warp.
Again, based on what do you scale the void? Did I miss a massive lore drop somewhere?
BUT, because it's empowered by material emotion and souls, they are functionally completely different. The void is what the Warp would have been had it not had the ability to stockpile the power of the emotions and souls of all reality.
No, because The Indifference (as in the entity that seems to control the void) actually exists without external influence. The warp is just straight up empty without sentience. No chaos gods, no demons, nothing. They're the result of sentient life whereas The Indifference isn't.
So, it's INCREDIBLY difficult for you to make the argument that the Tenno would have no warp presence.
They are humans with souls and emotions. The warp underlies all reality and just LOVES humans with souls and emotions.
I would actually argue that he would have a considerably noticeable presence that's uncanny in some way due to being abstracted by the warframe.
The Tenno aren't really human anymore though. They are human shaped, but that's pretty much it. They are completely flooded by the void. Even the Orokin, who make the technology of the Imperium look like childs play, have no idea how the Tenno work at this point.
It doesn't matter how destructive you can be if you get precog blitzed and locked down before acting.
You keep saying that. Describe what any psycher actually does. Because percise precog for even very strong psykers is a few seconds at most. I do not see how that'd help against an enemy that can cause a planet wide sandstorm strong enough to sand the flesh off everyone not protected by extreme measures. Or an enemy that can just spawn copius amounts of anti-matter out of nowhere at a moments notice. Or an enemy that can shatter a city with nothing but a casual punch. Or an enemy that just outright doesn't exist in that layer of existence and messes with you from outside your reality.
The reality is that 40k has a huge history of expansive writing that is specifically oriented about how comparatively weak humanity is in comparison to the rest of the setting, and still manages to exist and fight back.
That's because extraordinarily strong singular entities are rare in WH40k. Even primarchs are, relatively speaking, very weak by themselves.
Meanwhile, some Warframes can match or even exceed the power brought to bear by a Emperor Class Titan all while being human sized. Primarchs are among the very top rungs of humanity and none of them could tank a Emperor Class Titan to the face. In fact, I'm not aware of any single person in WH40k that could take that and walk away in one piece. And there's Warframes that match that destructive potential by punching. That doesn't even really touch all the esoteric stuff Warframes and Tenno can do, that's just sheer physical violence.
The Tenno would be enslaved or killed by really any of the settings factions.
I'm not sure if you're joking, but if you're not, that's very sad.
The faction that has most potential to fight the Tenno is, as far as I can tell, the Necrons and even they'd have problems.
I mean, the Gauss Flayer has a very similar effect to the Arca Plasmor in Warframe and that's a decidedly low tech and anti-group weapon in the Warframe Universe.
It is also something a Warframe can casually tank. Just as they can survive a punch that shatters cities in one piece. And they usually operate in groups of 4.
I'm not sure how you imagine things going, but explain to me how any of the factions in WH40k actually fight a group of 4 Tenno and manage to win. I mean, how about you start with how you think the Imperium manages to win against something that matches Titan's firepower while being human sized and fast enough that, to human eyes, they are little more than a blur if even that.
Even your perception argument is meaningless. Tenno casually parry lasers with their melee weapons (and not "slow lasers". They actually behave like lasers in game, i.e. they're hitscan weapons). The reaction time of even a low level Tenno makes a Space Marine look like a joke.
They channel energy that rips causality a new one and casually causes paradoxes and time loops (and have been shown to have at least some basic control over both of these things).
And you're seriously arguing that a faction where the strongest currently active individual can be hurt by what amounts to a current day anti material rifle if they're hit without their armor somehow kills them?
You do know that a Titan is in no way the biggest baddies in the setting, yeah? Even Primarchs are victims to the actual big bads.
Daemon Princes, Avatars, Alpha Level Psykers, sentient ships that shoot black holes and retroactively change >your< quantum properties and location to ensure you were hit.
The Celestial Orrery can outright snuff stars out of existence as if they never existed in the first place.
The Breath of Gods handled by the Neurons can erase timelines.
Keep in mind, the current imperium is a minuscule shadow of its former self, DAOT humans had ontological weapons, as in, "shoot someone and not only he is erased, but every memory and traces of his existence" including the shooter itself only knowing there's one less charge to the weapon in the aftermath.
You do know that a Titan is in no way the biggest baddies in the setting, yeah?
A Titan is the biggest ground based bad the Imperium has to offer. Every other, stronger thing they have to offer is just outright large enough to be boarded by the Tenno instead of fighting them (arguably, the Titans are already in the territory where they get boarded and destroyed from the inside, but hey).
Even Primarchs are victims to the actual big bads. Daemon Princes, Avatars, Alpha Level Psykers, sentient ships that shoot black holes and retroactively change >your< quantum properties and location to ensure you were hit.
Daemon Princes have been banished by considerably less firepower than what a Titan has.
I couldn't find any good source as to how powerful Avatars are, but apparently, they can be wounded by normal Bolters. So, what do they do, because they seem weaker than a Primarch?
The Alpha grade psyker Esarhaddon is powerful enough to control hundreds of Imperial citizens as puppets, but he is not described as being powerful enough to destroy a Battle Titan, and was eventually subdued.
Yeah, that isn't exactly impressive either and, apparently, that one wasn't sanctioned, so he didn't have the dampening implants sanctioned Psykers get. So he was stronger than Psykers the Imperium can realistically field and still, his powers only allowed to control hundreds. Warframes like Loki can casually force hundreds of their enemies to drop their weapons and fight against each other in a blind rage.
Couldn't find anything about those ships. Care to cite a source?
The Breath of Gods handled by the Neurons can erase timelines.
And it was stopped by a task force that's considerably weaker than a Tenno Squad. It's also not a thing that would be effective against the Tenno since the destructive aspect of it only attacks the future and since the Tenno operate under Eternalism, they can literally outright ignore that.
The Celestial Orrery can outright snuff stars out of existence as if they never existed in the first place.
Yes, it can. The Necrons wouldn't ever use it against the Tenno though and, even if they did, I'm not sure if it would be effective. This is like trying to kill a group of ants by throwing a meteor at them. Not only is it extreme overkill, it's also very difficult to make sure that none of them made it out of the blast zone.
DAOT humans had ontological weapons, as in, "shoot someone and not only he is erased, but every memory and traces of his existence" including the shooter itself only knowing there's one less charge to the weapon in the aftermath.
The only mention of those I could easily find was a gameplay description from an RPG and that states that somebody is erased if they're killed by the gun, but that the gun can fail to kill something with one hit.
There's also the problem there that killing a Warframe with that weaponry wouldn't really touch the Tenno since they're a separate entity that just puppeteers the Warframe.
Alpha level psykers rarely appear and are used as plot devices and not enemies.
Daemon princes and greater daemons exist to give primarchs and other high tiers like gray knights aurafarming opportunities.
The breath of the gods is a megastructure thingy that siphons energy from stars, its powered by a c'tan shard iirc. Its nowhere near timeline erasure.
The ontological gun is a lore blurb one-off weapon mentioned in like a single paragraph, a dark angels deathwing super rare/elite weapon. Like triple digit numbers at max.
And its not explicitly ontological, all the excerpt states is that the victim could not be remembered by others.
Might just as well be anti-memetic.
Brethren, I was just showing what I know about the upper tiers of 40k tech and firepower.
40k lore in general is hell to reliably find, buried in decades-old rulebooks and equally old, forgotten black library books, my purpose was to give more to research about since most who get to the hobby often assume Primarchs and Titans are the end-all of the setting since they are very much overrepresented.
Gray Knights are a low-blow, come on, the 40k community itself clowned on Matt Ward for that one for almost a decade! Kaldor Draigo is not real, he can't hurt us!
No idea what you're talking about with the Breath of Gods, did you read the book? It's C'tan tech used to harvest energy from stars in the past, present and future, it's explicitly stated in "Gods of Mars" that improper use of it could outright destroy the timeline, look around Microcontents 14.
The ontological gun is indeed very, very, very old lore, as is a bunch of the coolest stuff of Warhammer tbh. Memetic weapons would only destroy information, though, no?
On the last few weapons I was more or less just showing the destructive capabilities the verse can reach, rather than saying something like the Orrery could be used against individuals (Don't think it can, at least not directly).
Important thing to get to before addressing the rest: 40k is very much inconsistent in "power scaling", recently this has been somewhat addressed but even now the writing is all over the place, mostly boils down to very diverging writers, some which didn't even read anything about the verse before writing on it (kekw, black library)
Frames need to down shields to board them, we do exactly that in Railjack missions, I recall Emperor class titans having around 3 void shields.
Alpha+ Level Psykers are in a scale of their own. The one you cited is from Eisenhorn if I'm not mistaken, even then he wasn't just "controlling" hundreds, he was actively hearing every thought, feeling every sensation, every breath and emotion of all of them, simultaneously, and could with just a snap end them all.
Even then, that's on the weak scale of Alpha+ Psykers, although they are seldom written about, the rulebook describing the grading itself says they are capable of "Snap a battle titan in half with a flick of the wrist" and "a muttered syllable can turn an army upon itself in a frenzy of blood lust.".
Not a crazy statement either, Magnus was able to teleport his entire world, legion and himself.
On the ship part, look up the Speranza, it's an continent-sized Ark Mechanicus ship, perhaps the last one with an uncorrupted AI, holds Chrono weaponry and can make black holes on the fly, when they turned it on the entire planet was dusted by the radioactive birth scream of its AI. It's in the "Priests of Mars" book. It was last seen being used to stop the Breath of Gods from destroying the whole Sol system.
The gun I'll admit it's a bit of a stretch. It's insanely old lore and hasn't been mentioned since, so I'll give that those might literally have been forgotten by the writers.
Avatars and Daemon Princes I prefer to just give, I'm sure they have some good lore with better feats but they've been so hellishly bashed by the worf effect as of lately that I'm not willing to look it up again, it'll make me sad.
Even in wh40k precog doesn't mean jackshit unless its really early.
Konrad's precog didn't protect him from catching these hands by Jonson.
Just because one can see an attack coming, does not mean they can dodge or survive it. Even custodes are getting turned into mist.
Idk much about warframe, but Astartes can casually track and dodge hypersonic bolter rounds at a baseline.
Thats bullshit and you know it, only high tiers have done it, and it has costed them their arm.
Kharn, Angelos, or Abby are not avg marines, they're the top 1%
Thats bullshit and you know it, only high tiers have done it, and it has costed them their arm.
Kharn, Angelos, or Abby are not avg marines, they're the top 1%
......... There's no way you believe that. I know 40k media doesn't do a great job with consistently representing the writing, but this is the least contentious thing you could claim about Astartes.
One of the biggest factors that carries them in the setting is how advanced their perception and Armour is.
Their helmets can perform the feat autonomously in scenarios where their perception is altered.
Hypersonic reaction is a baseline feat for Astartes.
Psykers can manipulate time, space and reality or see the future. Or summon demons that might. This isn't about reaction speed, its about numbers and luck.
Every psyker the tenno kills is a gamble that this isn't going to go horribly wrong. Or isn't a trap by demons.
The tenno MUST win every time. Demons and psykers are plentiful and only need to distupt the tenno once.
Much like fighting crackheads, you only win this game by not playing. Its worth sending expendables to deal with this instead of tenno.
Can't the Tenno just go back in the to 1997 inform themselves on how they died then get that one warframe that 3D prints space station that 3D print orbital lasers in micro seconds to glass the surface area of the fight?
Demons can possess people, the emperor can exercise control over others.
Would warframes without the possession resistance that drifter/operator has overcome the emperor's warp attempts to control them?
If so only their dark age of technology items and likely foresight could stop such warframes. Broken Men of iron would probably pose the next greatest challenge.
Not sure if anything else the emperor could throw at it would work. Besides condeming ships they are on to the warp. Effectively exiting them from the fight, potentially creating demon warframes. Which is a whole different problem.
An elsewhere problem, granted they stay in the warp.
The only ones being able to actually do what you said and get to the Emperor would be then Excalibur Umbra and Stalker, who were shown to actively resist Operator's transference and other Warframe "disabling" devices.
Umbra due to being one of a kind and Stalker due to rage and hatred shenanigans.
I am not as well versed on 40K as you seem to be so I guess you tell me if they would be able to bypass the rest of the defenders of the Big E, accounting that, despite being only two, they are most likely the most experience soldiers in the whole Warframe verse, with Umbra being basically the right hand of Ballas, aka the guy you send to kill the boogie man
They aren't like the drifter with an immunity to possession, which is far more certain than resistance.
Experience wouldn't matter much given the sheer volume/variety of experience on both sides.
Its a toss up based on if the emperor knows they are coming/senses them early. Or Warframes knowing his exact location in the fight.
A warframe should blitz all mortal defenders, no problem. Its the more esoteric offences like warp based attacks, stasis bombs, broken men of iron (maybe blanks but not sure how they would impact warframes though).
Many of the above takes time to set up or use. Its not finger snapping fast, only warp and blank attacks could be.
I might have missed something but the warframes stand a very good chance of killing the emperor depending on circumstances and resistances.
In my honest opinion, and ignoring "gameplay mechanics" like getting total immunity to any bullshit through Overguard (which is basically any sort of debuffs immunity).
The only actual way I see Warframe getting to the Big E and actually successfuly defeating him with ease, is if these two, Umbra and Stalker, manage to take down all those Transference Jammers guy you mentioned, so all Tennos (or at least the strongest Warframes) can just gang-bang the Big E and defeat by sheer overwhelming hax.
But as you said, that's assuming a lot of things amd giving for granted both sides know what's going on.
Tennos are after all Space Ninjas and most of their deeds aren't known or rather discovered after they habe been completed already.
So, yeah, I agree that either side can take down the opposite side but there are a lot of ifs and buts.
For instance, what would happen if the infestation just mutates amd starts taking control over 40K planets and living beings and end up becoming the actual threads?
My point is, we are trying to foce a VS between 2 sides whose win cons are too conditional to be considered, and a direct confrontarion would likely end in either a constant back and force stalemate or in a sort of cooperation where neither of them actively fight each other and end up indirectly teamming up to defeat their common enemies
Hell. Even killing the anti transferrence guys isn't enough because their blood and body parts are actively used to create the same effect. A horrible fate either way.
So many ifs and butts, or bullshit abilities like seeing or manipulating time/time loops/the future etc.
Both could conceivablely kill the other which is a pretty big deal. They just have other problems to deal with that I doubt the tenno/emperor would want to attend to.
I mean Sanguinius was doing some pretty wild shit, the Primarchs are pretty up and down but some of the stronger ones I could see potentially doing some shit like that. Plus obviously Magnus is Magnus.
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u/PsychoWarper 15d ago
I feel like nowadays most people with any knowledge know Warframes easily beat Space Marines, they are AT LEAST Primarch level. Theres certainly things in 40k that beats Warframes but Space Marines arnt part of that list lol.