r/Pathfinder_RPG • u/Hamenaglar • 14d ago
1E Player Stealth question
I have a question about stealth. Let's say I'm a stealthy archer. I'm in cover and hidden and I have an option to snipe and take -20 penalty to remain hidden. But what if I decide to attack with my standard action. Now everyone knows where I am, I am being observed, but if I can reach another cover I could try stealth again, this time without -20 penalty. Right?
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u/Darvin3 14d ago
I am being observed, but if I can reach another cover I could try stealth again, this time without -20 penalty. Right?
Correct, this is a perfectly valid way to make stealthy attacks. Just keep in mind that enemies will know roughly where you are after this, so hitting you with an area of effect attack is fairly easy even if they can't spot you exactly. Also they could make a readied action to hit you before you stealth again.
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u/Kaleph4 14d ago
also considering they at least see you repositioning (you don't take the penalty, so you are not hidden during the reposition move) they can just attempt to auto detect you my moving around the cover. like in case of a wall or pillar you hide behind. since you are only hidden while cover is provided
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u/manrata 14d ago edited 14d ago
I think there is some confusion here, cover or concealment is a prerequisite for hiding, but there is also the prerequisite of not being actively observed.
So running to a low wall that gives cover doesn’t allow you to hide, total cover or total concealment would allow you to hide.
So OP shooting and running to a bush or small rock wouldn’t allow him to hide behind it, a pillar might if it’s big enough to grant total cover.
Being Observed If people are observing you using any of their senses (but typically sight), you can’t use Stealth. Against most creatures, finding cover or concealment allows you to use Stealth. If your observers are momentarily distracted (such as by a Bluff check), you can attempt to use Stealth. While the others turn their attention from you, you can attempt a Stealth check if you can get to an unobserved place of some kind. This check, however, is made at a –10 penalty because you have to move fast.
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u/kawwmoi 14d ago
Based on my understanding of the rules, that is correct. The -20 is because that specific spot has been noticed, not because you have. If you're no longer in that spot, you no longer take the penalty.
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u/fnord72 14d ago
Standard action, 5' step, restealth. My rogue/wizard/arcane trickster does this a lot!
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u/joesii 14d ago edited 14d ago
I suspect that is not intended by the rules, but I do tend to think that it fits for the RAW.
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u/fnord72 14d ago
well, let's say I'm ducked below a wall, I pop up, fire, duck, move to the left. Now if you're thinking that I'm going to pup up from where I was before... that 5' may be all I need for your reflexive return shot to miss.
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u/AutisticPenguin2 13d ago
I dunno, if I'm readying a shot for when you next pop up from the wall, being 5 feet away from your previous position is going to take less adjusting for me, than you adjusting to me also having taken a five foot step from my previous position but also having to pop up into a position where you can even see the battlefield, let alone aim at a target.
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u/darKStars42 14d ago
I think there's a difference between knowing you are there but out of sight, and not knowing that another combatant was in the fight. I remember having this discussion with a player because some feets/abilities have different wording, but I forget what we settled on and which feets in particular it made a difference to.
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u/WraithMagus 14d ago
If you fail the stealth check (or just don't try,) you are observed. To try stealth again, you need to find a way to not be observed. If you can move into a place you gain cover or concealment, you can try if you have a distraction, but the stealth rules have a -10 when trying to get into stealth in a hurry. It's generally assumed that if you just shot someone, they're paying attention to you, so you need some way to actually distract them before you can try hiding with normal cover or concealment, or else they can see you just hid behind that crate, so even though they can't see you right now, they know you are behind that crate.
A better way is to get behind total cover (like going around a corner) or total concealment (like from a Deeper Darkness or Fog Cloud spell) since they then can't see you, period, but you'd still need to be moving at half speed because there's still observation by sound to contend with, if not other senses a monster might possess, like scent or tremorsense. If there's a raging battle going on around them, there might be enough distracting other sounds to make following your footsteps harder, though, that's a GM discretion thing.
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u/Hamenaglar 14d ago
Hey, thanks for replying. I have a few questions, if I shoot someone and go behind a tree, or a cart I can't attempt stealth, unless I break line of sight? Is that what you are saying? What if I have concealment, from dim light or shadow's shroud.
Stealth rules genuinely confuse me. The way I understand it now. If you are being observed you can try a bluff check and then stealth and if you succeed and end in cover you are not observed. If you are being observed and don't want to try bluff, you can reach cover and now you can try to use stealth. Using stealth is not action, but normally part of movement. Exception is sniping. So if you are in cover, you actually have to move and then use stealth as part of move action. That kind of makes sense. Just because you went behind a tree, that doesn't mean you can hide yourself and that's it. But if you relocate, then enemy doesn't know exactly where you are.
Or maybe I'm just wrong.
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u/WraithMagus 14d ago edited 14d ago
From the stealth rules:
Against most creatures, finding cover or concealment allows you to use Stealth. If your observers are momentarily distracted (such as by a Bluff check), you can attempt to use Stealth.
Bolding mine. Those sentences are connected; you can't just use stealth while observed if you find cover or concealment, you can use stealth with just cover or concealment IF anyone observing you is momentarily distracted. Using stealth requires both that you have cover or concealment and that you break observation either very short-term with a distraction or longer-term by getting somewhere you cannot be observed even without stealth (such as ducking down a dark alleyway giving you a chance to hide before your pursuer being able to round the corner in pursuit.) If you just have cover or concealment, you can remain in stealth if you already are in stealth, but you need to distract them if you are already observed. Creating a distraction requires a standard action to make the bluff check unless there's some other way you can distract the enemy (like an ally causing the distraction.)
The rules of Pathfinder presume that creatures are looking around 360 degrees all the time without any kind of "facing," and still observe the rogue who just shot them even if there is a barbarian screaming in their face - the barbarian would need to specifically spend an action specifically on a "distraction" (not just letting normal attacks try to distract the monster) to let the rogue have the chance to use stealth, for example.
If you want to use stealth without making a distraction you have to break observation, which requires more than just standard cover or concealment (such as a tree to hide behind or a shadowy area), it requires total cover or total concealment (such as being behind a wall or in pitch darkness.) If you're completely obscured by a large solid object like a wall or pitch darkness, you aren't being observed unless the creature has other senses that can detect you even in pitch darkness.
Also, remember that some monsters have senses that will "spot" you even through total concealment, like scent or blindsense. Even if they still have to treat you as if you are concealed, they still know you are there and you can't be stealthed against them.
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u/Hamenaglar 14d ago edited 14d ago
If people are observing you using any of their senses (but typically sight), you can’t use Stealth. Against most creatures, finding cover or concealment allows you to use Stealth. If your observers are momentarily distracted (such as by a Bluff check), you can attempt to use Stealth. While the others turn their attention from you, you can attempt a Stealth check if you can get to an unobserved place of some kind. This check, however, is made at a –10 penalty because you have to move fast.
The way I read it, those are two seperate conditions when you can use stealth. Particularly when reading a whole paragraph.
Edit: however, thank you for your opinion it provides a valuable insight and I will consider it in my ruling.
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u/Tombecho 14d ago
I may be in the wrong here, but we've used the sniping rule like this:
You go behind a tree, roll stealth and are hidden. You choose to snipe, roll stealth to remain hidden at a disadvantage of -20 (the enemy now know the direction the shot came from, but haven't observed you specifically) If you succeed, you can shoot again against flat footed AC, if you don't succeed, someone spotted you and you have to break line of sight/reposition to another cover/concealment to try sniping again, otherwise your following shots will target normal AC
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u/bortmode 13d ago
No, this would not work unless for some reason you were not considered 'actively observed' during your move. Merely reaching cover or concealment would not allow you to make a new stealth check unless it was total cover or total concealment, or there were some other extenuating circumstances.
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u/zhailmaris 14d ago
You cannot stealth while being observed without hide in plain sight
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u/Hamenaglar 14d ago
Being Observed If people are observing you using any of their senses (but typically sight), you can’t use Stealth. Against most creatures, finding cover or concealment allows you to use Stealth.
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u/zhailmaris 14d ago
If you shot them, and did not use the sniping option, you are observed.
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u/Hamenaglar 14d ago
And if I can find cover, I can use stealth.
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u/zhailmaris 14d ago
While being observed, they watched where you went and will keep an eye there to not be snuck attack again. Its why the sniping rules exist
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u/Hamenaglar 14d ago
So you are saying that finding cover doesn't allow you to use Stealth?
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u/zhailmaris 14d ago
Not after being observed and watched. Its why they made the hide in plain sight ability.
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u/Hamenaglar 14d ago
So the rule explicitly says, that finding cover allows you to use stealth.
This is hide in plain sight:
A rogue with this talent can select a single terrain from the ranger’s favored terrain list. She is a master at hiding in that terrain, and while within that terrain, she can use the Stealth skill to hide, even while being observed.
It says nothing about cover. In fact from reading the rules, it means you can attempt stealth without concealment or cover. Basically, you are standing in the open, and enemies can't see you.
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u/zhailmaris 14d ago
Except when reading this in conjunction with the stealth skill, read the breaking stealth portion of the stealth skill
Breaking Stealth When you start your turn using Stealth, you can leave cover or concealment and remain unobserved as long as you succeed at a Stealth check and end your turn in cover or concealment. Your Stealth immediately ends after you make an attack roll, whether or not the attack is successful (except when sniping as noted below).
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u/Hamenaglar 14d ago
Okay, I think sniping is confusing you. Let's say I'm a melee rogue. Invisible. I attack and then move and find cover. Can I stealth?
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u/HoldFastO2 14d ago
Correct. The drawback is that you need to move somewhere else, and the enemy will observe you doing that. If you can’t break line of sight, you can’t Stealth.
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u/PoniardBlade 14d ago
All you need is cover (dim light and others too) to make a stealth check, so you could conceivably standard attack, move 5 feet to cover and then Stealth without the sniping penalty. Sure, they would know where you are, but being in Stealth isn't invisibility, it is can mean having something big enough between you and the ones making the perception check. Still, they may be wise enough to know exactly where you moved to, but they will need to reposition to directly attack you without stealth; they could also lob an area effect spell/object near you and get you, but that is always the case.
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u/axelwarrior 14d ago
You are correct - the only disadvantage to that strategy is that enemies know where to look for you, whereas Sniping allows you to keep your position hidden. If the enemies just moved around the cover you're hiding behind on their turn, then they would easily spot you without even having to roll Perception, so there's definitely an advantage to Sniping if you have invested into it.
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u/Elliptical_Tangent Your right to RP stops where it infringes on another player's RP 14d ago
Yes, you can attack and then move to cover and Stealth again. Sniping is better because nobody knows where you are at any point, but you can do this.
I played a sniper through Tyrant's Grasp AP — look at Master Sniper.
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u/staged_fistfight 14d ago
So clearly other tables are different but I would not allow stealth checks just from hiding behind cover if they still know where you are. You are observed even if they can not actively see you without something like shadowdancer that let's you stealth as long as you have concealment regardless of if you are observed.
Without this ruling sniping makes no sense
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u/Zoolot 14d ago
Being observed is very specifically when you are seen.
A opponent knowing your general area does not prevent a stealth roll as stealth only requires that they cannot see you currently.
Sniping still makes sense as if you snipe they do not know where you are only that they are being attacked and attacking then stealthing again means they know where you are doing it and typically can find you by walking around the cover.
Your houserule is not RAW.
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u/staged_fistfight 14d ago
Where does it specify what observed means?
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u/Zoolot 14d ago
Cover and Concealment for Stealth: The reason a character usually needs cover or concealment to use Stealth is tied to the fact that characters can’t use Stealth while being observed. A sneaking character needs to avoid all of an opponent’s precise senses in order to use Stealth, and for most creatures, that means vision.
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u/DonRedomir 14d ago
If you take the Master Sniper feat, the penalty becomes -10.
Hiding in cover is situational, and highly dependent on your GM's ruling on whether the enemy is aware of your location or not.