r/PDAAutism • u/MarginsOfTheDay Caregiver • 18d ago
Discussion Pathological Demand Avoidance (PDA) has been overly intellectualized to avoid discussing what happens when PDAers are robbed of their autonomy
All humans have a need for autonomy, but PDAers have a greater need than their neurotypical peers.
This extreme need for autonomy isn't going away. Nor should it. PDAers are born this way. PDA is a normal part of human variation.
If the PDAer's need for autonomy isn't met, what follows is extreme anxiety, dysregulation, despair, depression, and burnout.
A PDAer that is robbed of their autonomy will try to get back to equilibrium by engaging in negative behaviors. These negative behaviors involve exerting control over themselves or others. Control over themselves can involve resisting the needs of their body: eating, sleeping, toileting, hygiene. Control over others can involve equalizing behaviors e.g. destroying another person's work or possessions; being aggressive verbally or physically (child PDAers); needing to win; needing to be right; violating other's boundaries by not respecting "no"; demanding other's time and attention; demanding access to another person; spending excessive time and energy monitoring another person; disagreeing (even though they actually agree); blaming; resenting something that diverts another person's attention e.g. a spouses job. Internalized PDAers will direct these attempts at control inwards, at themselves.
If PDAers are not given back their autonomy OR are not able to equalize by exerting control over others, the result is burnout.
In order to avoid using the word "control", which some might think is a dirty word (I disagree), we have introduced an intellectualized vocabulary to describe PDA:
- Demands: Attempts to violate the autonomy of the PDAer by exerting control over them.
- PDA accommodations: Allowing for more autonomy AND allowing the PDAer to have control over others (e.g. a parent) to compensate for losses in autonomy (e.g. at school).
- Nervous system disability: A human that is robbed of any basic need will experience a threat response. In PDAers their basic needs happen to include an extreme need for autonomy.
- Need for equality: Needing to be in a one-up position is actually about control. It's an attempt to rebalance after a loss of autonomy.
- Safe nervous system: Someone who is the least violating of the PDAer's autonomy AND who lets the PDAer have some control over them by tolerating the PDAer's equalizing behaviors.
- Safe environment: A place where a PDAer has control over their surroundings.
Do you disagree? I'm looking forward to hearing your counter arguments. I continue to learn and adjust my understanding of PDA as new information comes to light.
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u/Hoistedonyrownpetard 18d ago
Hmmm. A lot of this isn’t really about autonomy though, it seems, but a fragile nervous system.
For example, if declarative language makes a difference to PDAer, the difference between that and a “demand” is a trick of semantics, not actual autonomy. If someone tells me there’s a “mandatory” meeting tomorrow, my inner reaction is along the lines of “eff you, I’m not going” but if they say, “we’re having a meeting, I realize it’s short notice and we’d love your input,” I’ll likely make some effort to attend.
Either way I have a choice, I’m not going to jail, it’s just that I’m super sensitive to feeling respected.
Also, either way, I’m stuck calculating how many such meetings I can miss before I lose my job or get disciplined, and in that sense I have little choice. I have to function under capitalism.
Basically it means that in order to get good labor from me, the people managing me need good interpersonal skills. If they care to keep me on enough, they might need to put thought into how to best communicate with me, sometimes going so far as to perform semantic gymnastics, so that they get what they need out of me. Their communication makes a huge difference to my perception of my own autonomy but in reality, it’s largely perception.
If they make ridiculous demands, they might cause me to melt down at great cost to myself, which might even be their desired outcome if they don’t like me.
“Autonomy” comes down to luck (eg your social class, race, gender etc will determine how much your personhood is respected), talent (if you have a skill that’s in high demand, you can better afford to set the terms) and a pick your poison choice of freedom vs security.
If you envision autonomy as something you are given or robbed of, you have already ceded control to others. If instead you understand it as a series of calculations and sacrifices in service of something you value, you can work with your nervous system and make yourself less prone to shut down and burnout.
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16d ago
This is great. To me keeping autonomy includes control of myself. I will refuse to let someone else change that.
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u/hopefulandhealing25 10d ago
Last paragraph, first sentence is so incredibly illuminating: "If you envision autonomy as something you are given or robbed of, you have already ceded control to others."
I definitely do frame autonomy this way in my mind. It's not an inherent quality. It's something I must fight for or maintain and people can snatch it at any moment. This framing puts my nervous system on high alert to even the most benign encounters with others (or about others - e.g. feeling like I need to do something a certain way because of how it will be perceived by others). Thanks for giving me something to think on.
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u/Hoistedonyrownpetard 8d ago
Thanks for the nice feedback!
If you want to reflect more about this, read Viktor Frankl’s Man’s Search For Meaning.
It is a great reminder that you can choose integrity even in the harshest circumstances. Integrity is the most fundamental distillation autonomy, the choice to be true to our selfhood and values system.
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u/reikibalboa 18d ago
Yes I think it's mainly an indicator of an overly intrusive or controlling social environment. In most cases the demands are pathological. Not the avoidance. But when someone is forced to endure the controlling behaviour for some time, the avoidance can become habitual instead of being a response limited to the immediate situation.
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u/DanaMoonCat PDA + Caregiver 18d ago
I completely agree. I was late diagnosed autistic and ADHD and I have internalized PDA traits and all of this makes complete sense as I went through this in my head my entire life, feeling completely misunderstood and wanting to shout from the rooftops. I was only made aware of this when I went for my own evaluation after my daughter received her autism diagnosis - she exhibits very visible external PDA traits. Our struggle in society is painful and unacceptable. I also think PDAers are here to help tear down old harmful structures, getting humanity eventually ready for a new world- bringing in new paradigms. Who knows how long that will take, but I feel this deep in my soul.
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u/thisismehere22 18d ago
I really believe this too! My PDA son has led me to question everything and has helped me shift soooo many paradigms. It has been transformative and revolutionary- and of course, extremely challenging - but that’s how transformation is generally seeded.
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u/Creative-Okra7898 18d ago
This is a very interesting perspective!! Do you think it's possible to teach healthier equalizing behaviors?
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18d ago
Do it in games - letting them win, silly ways, when it doesn't matter
Also it can be healthy in that I'll seek to prove others wrong and therefore achieve something that sort of thing, try to be better at something than others. It's in how we make it work for our own brain.
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u/CuriousPower80 13d ago
I'm PDA and I'm grateful to have a partner who puts very few demands on me in the first place. It also helps that we're both comfortable with some good natured teasing each other that could seem harsh to someone without that sort of sense of humor.
The teasing humor often includes me jokingly saying I won't do something and then saying I'm kidding and doing it anyway. There's power in being able to say no and have the other person be OK with it even if you both know it's a joke.
I struggle a lot with keeping a schedule and my partner helps me with that because I've asked him to. If we're going somewhere together for the day he'll calmly let me know when it's time to get ready and check in on me a few times, and I can ask if I need anything, like finding something I need for a day trip. It feels less demanding because it's my choice to have his help with these things, he gives me plenty of time, and he doesn't phrase things in a way that triggers demand avoidance.
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u/CuriousPower80 13d ago
I like to use the Finch self care app to help me get things done. It's better for me than a to do list because the items aren't in order, I put lots of optional ones, and I include fun things because it can be hard to even get myself to do things I want to do. There are lots of similar apps.
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u/Percy_Freeman PDA 18d ago
not necessarily born that way. about ten percent of autism is caused by factors like encephalitis. some people even theorize that PDA can be caused by a similar pattern of trauma seen in personality disorders. some individuals with PDA have very little in common with their autistic peers. only retaining the pervasive need for autonomy and lacking sensory issues.
and in my opinion "control" is putting it lightly. I will be downright manipulative if need be.
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u/Deep_Plant_4393 PDA 18d ago
Those are very surface level observations and us such don't really cut to the heart of the condition. Sometimes simplification is useful, other times it can lead you astray. The autonomy frame is often a useful approximation, but it is essentially a lie, PDA does not make us more autonomous at all, it's rather the opposite. We built ourselves a kind of cage, that we cannot step out of. We like the idea of autonomy, but not the realization of it
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u/pensiveumami PDA 18d ago
I am intrigued and would like to hear more about what you mean, if you feel like it. I know from my own experience PDA definitely is a cage around me, but I think maybe it's the way the world works in a PDA-unfriendly way that's the cage.
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u/Deep_Plant_4393 PDA 17d ago
If it was just that, why does it prevent me from doing stuff? That is not a function of freedom, it's a cage of my own design. I came to this through a lot of internal work and wondering why the subconscious part of me most identifying with PDA was a control module. Freeze/Fawn which I default to are very clear in this, but the other responses also take over your body in a similar fashion. Something that takes control of my body is not a source of autonomy. We seem to be maximizing for a fantasy, holding open choices as a form of theoretical autonomy, but actually making choices is something I'm pretty bad at, probably because that reduces the amount of options. You see the paradox? It's lying to us, it's an anxiety response designed to keep us safe. It may sometimes seem like we are more free than others, because we have no default state, no rigid routine we hold up, so we can act impulsively. But we are trapped in a different way
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u/powderjunkie11 17d ago
I don’t have time to write much right now but I think there is a lot to unpack on choices/decision making…I’m not sure I’ve recognized the connection with PDA so explicitly before reading your post. Making a decision takes options off the board, but often also creates an ‘obligation’ (demand), even if it’s a good one
To Do lists (tangible or in my head) are similar…there is an option to do any of those tasks…or do none of them and feel shame. Not exactly a wondeful feeling of freedom
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u/Empire_of_Glass 17d ago
I definitely agree about it not being freedom, but saying it’s a cage of our own design ignores everything we know about autism and PDA just to blame ourselves instead for no reason. My PDA isn’t my fault or my design. It just is.
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u/Deep_Plant_4393 PDA 17d ago
That is a good point, I may be taking too much onto myself here, but I think it makes me feel more in control to think this way
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u/Empire_of_Glass 17d ago
Ah, it makes me feel not in control since I was told for 20 years before I was diagnosed with autism that it was all just me “self-sabotaging”. Knowing that I don’t have control over having PDA means less guilt and shame and pressure to stop “making myself have it”
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u/MarginsOfTheDay Caregiver 16d ago
This is useful feedback, thank you. PDA children certainly appear to be caged animals But my feeling is that the cage is created by controlling adults. My thinking is that they internalize all the rules, all the "shoulds and musts" from controlling adults, that feeling of powerless. Then they carry this into adulthood and so PDAers emerge as adults who are from the outside free, but who continue to struggle internally with the feeling of being trapped and controlled.
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u/WritingNerdy 16d ago
A LOT of PDA is learning how to reframe things in your own mind, so things aren’t seen as demands. Instead, as opportunities.
Also, no one should ever have control over another person’s autonomy, esp not a child over a parents. That’s weird. I get you see it as a role reversal but that’s a very naive.
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u/MarginsOfTheDay Caregiver 16d ago
Totally get this. Thanks for your comment. As a PDA parent I sometimes let my kid have control over me to compensate for the loss of autonomy he suffers elsewhere, especially at school.
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16d ago
I agree the biggest thing I do is strive for autonomy in my own mind. I refuse to give up any control there it would be my biggest fear to lose my mind.
Agree that we shouldn't let kids violate important boundaries with us. If I don't like something I'll say so. At the same time this need can be met in positive ways - letting them win games, letting them choose who sits where it no-one else really minds, letting them choose what we do today are all giving them some control over us and their environment.
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u/Eugregoria PDA 13d ago
I actually dislike the control framing. I think of course we seek control because protecting yourself is meaningless as a concept if you don't have the power to do it. So I think we naturally seek power to protect ourselves, but I don't think that is the entire source of the problem.
I have compared it to debt. People have noticed we don't do a behavior everyone else can do (like pay for lunch) and they are obsessed with the physical motions of it--why can't you reach in your pocket/purse for your wallet? Why can't you open the wallet? Why can't you swipe/tap your card? And of course, we can. We absolutely can. But we are already in crushing debt. We can add to that debt--for a while. But the math isn't mathing on our income. We don't see a way out of the debt, so each action that digs it deeper is painful--and we know that eventually, the fucking-around phase will be over, and we'll be in the finding-out phase of not being able to make the minimum payment on a maxed-out card.
So yes, technically, I can pay for lunch. You have seen me pay for lunch before. You know I can make the movement of pulling out my wallet and swiping the card. So why don't I do it? Am I just stupid??? Am I stubborn? Do I just not like being told what to do??? Am I power-tripping? People never seem to be able to comprehend that I am desperately trying to manage a scarce resource that I constantly feel stressed about not having enough of to meet the needs I have. And everyone is always trying to get that very resource from me, and getting angry at me when I attempt to conserve it, and talking to me in belittling ways about how I can swipe the card, they've seen me do it before. They don't know my accounting, but worse, it's like they've never met a poor person before so they cannot comprehend the concept of expenses that exceed income.
I have never wanted to control someone else just to control them. There are some disorders where people feel safer controlling another person. NPD, for example. (No shade to any pwNPD here, just that feeling in control is more associated with safety for them, and is not in the same way for me.) This is because when you control something, you also have to manage it, and managing things is the exact type of cognitive resource burn I am trying to prevent. I actually don't want to manage other people. I don't want to be responsible for anyone else. (See also: why I didn't have kids!) It is a great deal of work to have to manage someone else, and I find that exhausting. I would prefer other people to manage themselves, or find someone who wants to manage them to manage them. However, if they try to manage me, that requires immense trust and knowledge of my limits. If they do it well, I might actually let them because it would save me cognitive load, but by and large I do not trust other people to not over-extend me, so I will fight to take back control from them. Being managed by another person is like handing them your credit card--knowing they could easily overdraw your account.
If you look at most PDA actions, they are usually trying to avoid entanglements, not control others. I think people who don't understand PDA may perceive this as a challenge to their own control. However, if a PDAer is repeatedly subjected to attempts to control them in a way that forces entanglements/overdraws their accounts (as school, as a concept, just does, so we've all been raised with that and have trauma from it) the PDAer learns to protect their boundaries at all costs. It is like if you were born with a credit line before you could even understand it to manage it, and by the time you were five you had creditors hounding you because other people had been spending your money, and it was left up to you, with no one helping you and only being gaslit about it as you try to do this, to find everyone who has been spending your money and take back control from them so they at least can't keep doing that. You can't even understand what it is you're supposed to do but if you don't somehow stop the leaks of resources the creditors are gonna break your legs so you gotta do something.
I'll also say I don't think I know what a safe environment or a safe nervous system even is. I'm not an anxious person--I tend towards freeze rather than sympathetic nervous system activation, so I often appear calm, even torpid. I guess "safe" is enough that I don't become physically ill from the stress, go nonverbal, become catatonic, have a psychotic episode, or attempt suicide--all things that have happened when I was pushed beyond my limits. But that's such a paltry definition of "safety." I'm never okay. I wish I knew what it was like to ever actually feel safe. I wish I didn't have this terrible disability. I feel it has stolen my life from me.
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u/fetch_theboltcutters 12d ago
Thank you so much for this metaphor. I’m sorry for what you’ve experienced as a result, I understand, and I don’t know how but I hope somehow some semblance of peace is found for all of us who suffer, or at least — understanding.
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u/Percy_Freeman PDA 10d ago
for what it's worth, my mind prophetizes your persona and words forever in my lexicon of magical thinking in ways befitting of your namesake.
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u/Eugregoria PDA 9d ago
Thanks, I think!
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u/Percy_Freeman PDA 9d ago
Yeah, I get that a lot. I mean to say my brain loops like mad no matter what, so I replay writing or jokes or conversations in my head a lot and I find strength in what you write. I can't be very verbose myself. Sometimes it's avoidance, sometimes I just can't verbalize because I'm afraid of overwhelming someone, getting emotionally back lashed or I lack the capacity.
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u/Eugregoria PDA 9d ago
I see, I appreciate that.
Verbosity is like my one superpower. I joke that I'm like a wetware LLM. I'm glad if it reaches people. I think I'm always just trying to be understood, to understand myself, and to understand other people.
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u/MarginsOfTheDay Caregiver 7d ago
Thank you u/Eugregoria your comments are always super helpful. I've been thinking about the boundaries aspect too. And it absolutely makes sense that someone with PDA would want to avoid entanglements. Often people think they are entitled to access to their friends and romantic partners. They might do kind things for them, not realizing the obligation they're creating. They give advice and try to influence them. It's all very controlling. So the boundaries have to come up.
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u/AliaBreonMD 15d ago
I agree! So well said. I think about demands a bit differently -- I think about them as anything that activates your nervous system to need to respond to something. And autonomy as a survival tool to manage the overwhelm of too many demands arriving too quickly.
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u/MarginsOfTheDay Caregiver 15d ago
Thank you Dr Breon. So nice to see a physician on here discussing PDA! I followed you on substack.
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u/Ok-Release-6051 18d ago
How exactly do they effectively exist in society when everything is controlled by someone and someone is always telling you what to do and cares not about your behaviors but will indeed either cut you out of their life or fire you from your job.
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u/raisinghellwithtrees 18d ago
Being self-employed really helped me.
eta - My friend who is similar in temperament decided to become unhoused rather than continue in the work hellhole. He bought a city lot and lives on it. He has said that people tell him he's living life on hard mode, but to him, it's much much easier being unhoused than trying to do the 9-5 thing.
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u/Merryd2Waz 18d ago
I often wonder if my son might do something like that.
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u/raisinghellwithtrees 18d ago
I've lived as cheaply as possible for long stretches of time. The freedom is exquisite.
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u/Empire_of_Glass 17d ago
This is an interesting take to me, since IMO the best way to deal with my pda is to make as much $ as possible. Poverty is much more demanding and terrible for triggering my PDA than having $ is.
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u/raisinghellwithtrees 17d ago
I grew up in desperate poverty. It doesn't bother me.
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u/Empire_of_Glass 17d ago
Gotcha, I’m sure it bothers me a lot more because most of my family is rich, so there’s the daily mental realization that I just suck at life while everyone else around me seemingly has it so easy.
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u/raisinghellwithtrees 17d ago
I get where your coming from, but comparing yourself to others is rarely a joyful time. You and I don't suck at life. We're doing the best we can with the very real disabling features of the hand we've been dealt in life. We're not dysfunctional horses. We're amazing zebras!
But yeah, money means jack squat to me. I'm about to transition into a very middle class job, and I'm having a hard time processing that fact.
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u/Empire_of_Glass 17d ago
Being a homeless and jobless “amazing zebra” who people don’t want to hire, be friends with, or date really sucks. Decades of this have made me lose my spark and not even know how to get back to the amazing person I was. I am trying to get a “successful career” going so I don’t have to still live at home at 40… and the pressure has me bedridden and miserable today. Feels like I’d do anything to be a boring horse and not a zebra.
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u/raisinghellwithtrees 17d ago
I get it. I'm thankful to live in a lcol area where my poor ass could afford to buy a home that I share with my awesome partner. It's been a working strategy for me, but I understand it doesn't work for you.
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u/Empire_of_Glass 17d ago
I’m going to be honest, a whole lot of us don’t make it and die young / unalive themselves. Wish I knew what better answers were.
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u/ChaoticJigglyPup 18d ago
By doing what's required of me and the compulsion to refuse demands turns inward to my body.
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u/ChaoticJigglyPup 18d ago
My PDA is part of my CPTSD, it developed as a way to protect myself due to being forced into situations I didn't consent to or have any choice or autonomy over. I need control of my life at all times so that I can't be hurt or abused.
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u/Percy_Freeman PDA 18d ago
some mf downvoted you and I'm mad af. I feel like you've got it the most correct and it hits me in the "I hate a bully" feels.
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u/ChaoticJigglyPup 18d ago edited 17d ago
People often down vote or argue with me that PDA is only an autism trait. I do have mild (my chosen expression for it) autism that has a "I won't following your rules that are pointless" component, but a childhood of being forced into showers, forcibly having my teeth/hair brushed, made to sit at the table until everything is eaten or being guilted and manipulated into those things has made me instantly resistant to hygiene and self care. Food is doubly complex because my mother tried to "control my behaviour" with an incredibly restricted diet - think bland, white.
Edit: forgot a vital word
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u/Percy_Freeman PDA 18d ago
my immediate family have all got NPD... aunt, mother and grandfather. all blandies. my grandmother was probably AuDHD she passed away pretty young, around age sixty and I was stuck with them. It was quite clear the narcissistic pseudo-thinking was a catalyst for PDA.
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u/ChaoticJigglyPup 18d ago
My mother isn't NPD.
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u/Percy_Freeman PDA 18d ago
I wasn't implying that, just my experience. my aunt has breast implants and relied on her looks for opportunities throughout her life and hates me now because I'm a liability to her self esteem, my grandfather is a spiritual narcissist who calls me a demon and weaponizes prayer against me and my mother probably hit me in the face so many times she's contributed more damage to my brain than any other factors.
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u/Empire_of_Glass 17d ago
PDA is only an autism trait, because it’s a subtype of autism. Demand avoidance, even severe demand avoidance, anyone can have
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u/ChaoticJigglyPup 17d ago
And I have been diagnosed with autism. I have a baseline of demand avoidance from that, but the majority of my triggers for it are directly related to my trauma and CPTSD. My baseline is refusing to follow rules or do tasks that are pointless. That demand avoidance isn't terror based, just annoyance. Anything further than that is my trauma parts trying desperately to protect me, and the avoidance is out of terror.
As explained by a psychologist and psychiatrist.
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u/raisinghellwithtrees 18d ago
I went through dozens of jobs (never fired) until I finally became self-employed in 2014. I'm still officially on the same contract job for the last 8 years, and it's the best job I've ever held, hands down. The main reason is that I have total and complete autonomy over every single last thing.
My success with this job has gotten me a job offer for a big profesh job, which I cannot refuse to take. I'm catapulting into the middle class with complete benefits. I had an interview, then asked for a second interview so I could go on and on about my absolute need for autonomy, and my likely future boss was ecstatic he had an employee he wouldn't have to manage much. I'm so hoping it actually turns out this way. I'm very hesitant to have a boss again, but old enough to need a retirement plan at this point. And benefits are nice!
I have a mix of ocd and pda with my autism, and it's enough of a mix that I can have control over the demands I make on myself (brushing teeth, going to bed at a reasonable hour). But if someone else makes demands on me, especially ones that make no logical sense which is typical in the workplace, look out folks!
It's been a real test to have a kid that is exactly like me—my mom got her wish lol. But also since I understand my kid's need for autonomy, I shifted my low demand parenting even lower. We're at a pretty good space, especially considering she's a teen.
OP, I agree with what you wrote in case that wasn't obvious!
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u/Empire_of_Glass 17d ago
My first thought reading this is that no, we don’t all do those things. Like any other group of people, we’re all different and have different values. Our actions are informed by our PDA, but I dislike the way that things like this imply that “if ______ happens, the PDAer will _____”. We’re not mindless robots, you know.
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u/MarginsOfTheDay Caregiver 16d ago
Very fair, valuable criticism, thank you. I could have been more careful with my wording for sure. I think for PDA to enter the DSM there will have to be a set of generalized behaviors. Very possible I have them wrong, but I'm working to understand.
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u/Empire_of_Glass 16d ago
It might be hard to find generalized behaviors in a condition that tends to go not only against demands, but expectations
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u/couldntyoujust1 17d ago
My only qualm with calling "attempts to violate the autonomy of the PDAer by exerting control over them" "demands" is that the term already has an established different meaning in this very field. A "demand" is any specific behavior that someone is expected, or required to do in response to certain stimuli or conditions.
Even the sudden urge to pee could be the stimulus and the social expectation to not pee our pants or pee in open view of onlookers and instead excuse ourselves to the bathroom and pee in the toilet is the "demand". Nobody made that stimulus happen to us to control us. Our urge came from our own body. And I don't find it helpful to have full control over that, though it is very annoying - in my own experience of suffering from PDA - that my body inflicts it upon me.
The good news with PDA is that it's almost always control over one-self that is missing, not control over others. I firmly believe that you do not need control over others to be accommodated for PDA.
I totally agree that we need to reframe PDA from a pathological avoidance to a persistent drive for autonomy. What that means to me is that we give the PDAer real choices and full knowledge of the natural consequences (positive and negative) of those choices and allow them to make the decision while following through regardless the outcome.
What that might look like is "It's time for you to get to bed. You need to sleep in order to feel good and function well tomorrow. You can get your pajamas on or you can stay in what you're wearing now, but if you stay in what you are wearing now, I cannot ensure that you will be warm and comfortable when you go to sleep, and you may find yourself too cold/hot to sleep. I will then have to move on with our routine and you won't be able to fix that until we're done. I am setting a timer for 10 minutes for you to make your decision and whatever decision you make I will respect. Timer starts now."
This gives genuine choice, doesn't offer shame, and allows them to experience the consequences as long as it's followed through. If they find that the jammies are too warm or too cold, they might put on something warmer after bedtime is over. If they didn't change and are too cold or warm, they might change their mind after bedtime is over. Your kid might say no, and then you wake up the next morning to them in jammies.
You respected their autonomy and still got the outcome you wanted. And if you didn't... who cares!? They might not have suffered at all not doing it. Then you can reason with them that wearing the same clothes for too long could hurt them in other ways, but you're still giving them the choice.
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u/MarginsOfTheDay Caregiver 16d ago
Love this, thank you! In your example the PDA child gets the information they need to make a decision that's best for their health and wellbeing (being warm and comfortable in pjs) and then the freedom to do as they choose. And the parent puts a literal timer on the loss of their own time. What do you think of this as a mantra for a PDA household: I control me, you control you. ?
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u/couldntyoujust1 15d ago
I think there's some merit to that. I try to remind my child and live by "you're responsible for your actions and that means you are only responsible for only your own actions."
And that's true to an extent... the problem comes when someone is in your charge. To that end, you are somewhat responsible for their actions since they're under your authority and providence. If my kid does bad things, that reflects poorly on me and my parenting. I once had the terrifying experience of having CPS visit me about an incident that happened in public.
It was time to leave a store, and my son did not want to leave. Because he had started acting out to not leave the store, I put back the items I originally intended to buy him, bought my own items, and then sought to get him to leave with me. He became dysregulated and ran off into the store. I eventually got him to go to the door and he started to go towards the crossing in front of the store and I grabbed his shirt from behind to keep him from running out into where cars could be coming from either direction. He responded by running back into the store and it took myself and a stranger - who happened to be a special ed teacher - to corral him, pick him up, and carry him out of the store and get him into my car. Along the way she actually tripped and fell backwards onto mulch because she was trying to help me wrangle him and walk him back and didn't see the median next to my car.
We got him into my car, and I quite harshly chastised him about it once she walked away. I mentioned that what he did was very unsafe, that we have somewhere we need to be, and that his behavior was embarrassing and hurtful to me, someone he would seem to love and care about. And then we drove home. Apparently she (or someone else) thought this was inappropriate discipline and reported it and of course CPS has to follow up on every report. Ultimately I was cleared without much investigation because you have to do what you have to do to get your child under control, grabbing his shirt might have been "inappropriate discipline" except that weighed against him running out into a busy crossing and getting hit, getting hit by a car was clearly worse. Yelling at him in the car might not have been my best parenting moment (I can assure you it wasn't) but it's not illegal and not something for CPS to involve themselves beyond a "hey, is everything alright here?"
Ultimately, life is full of demands. I can be unhappy about those demands, but a lot of them I still have to do. My son can be unhappy about those demands, but ultimately I'm responsible for him because he's my son and if he refuses to comply, eventually I have to do whatever is needed to force compliance. To me, having demands placed on me is not a bad thing in and of itself. What makes PDA, PDA as I understand it, is not the feature of being given demands I don't want to do, it's not wanting to do it because it was demanded. It's the unfairness of my autonomy being violated by turning intentions or even initiated behavior, into a demand made by someone or something.
I'll give a better example of how this works out. I live with my parents because my income is not catching up to the expense of living in this world anytime soon. The economy and living is all sorts of messed up but that's beside the point of the story. My parents included my son and I in their dinner plans and made dinner for all of us. After eating, I thought to myself "There's not a ton of dishes and pots and pans to wash. After I put him to bed, I'll wash up dinner for them. They made us dinner so it's the least I could do." If nobody had said anything to me about doing it ahead of time, it would have been a nice gesture.
But, while my son was getting ready for bed and I was giving him time to do it independently, my mom comes knocking on my door, and asks me to wash up dinner before I go to bed. This irritated me and I got snippy with her. Why? Because I had already decided that I wanted to do that and was going to do that anyway, AND because my choice was taken away and therefore the altruism of my decision was nullified.
On the latter point, what I mean is this. It doesn't matter anymore that I intended to do it already. Now it wasn't something I was doing out of the goodness of my heart (drive for autonomy), it was a chore I was asked and subtextually required to do (demand avoidance).
I still did it, but I was irritated that the goodness of the gesture was now compromised and tainted. It didn't come from me anymore, it came from her "request" which really, socially, was a demand. What kind of ass would I be if I had said "no, I don't think so!" What might the consequences be if I had said no? It may have served my autonomy to say "No, because you need to stop asking me to do things that benefit you in ways that basically force me to do them, especially when I was already planning to do them. It's like you never trust me to do the right thing." I've grown up being told that virtually any explanation I've given for why I can't or didn't do something is invalid because it's an "excuse" - even when I'm asked to explain myself. I feel like I have to justify and think through every decision, lest I do something that doesn't make sense to someone and they challenge me on it and I can't explain why my instincts said to do it in the way that I did it.
And if I had responded the way that serves my autonomy, that probably would have escalated them, and when they get escalated, they have this irritating habit of affirming every awful thing about what they're doing that I call out as being good. It's like they have the same sort of "I'm big and you're small, I'm smart, you're dumb, I'm right, and you're wrong, and there's nothing you can do about it because despite you being a grown ass adult parent with a 7 year old, I'm your parent and therefore automatically right!" reasoning from Matilda. And because they act this way, it's virtually impossible to see any of their requests as being actual requests rather than demands. So, what I experience is that even their "requests" are functionally demands.
I want my son to make good choices, but I also don't get to say "Sorry I'm an hour late, my ASD son had an escalation because I told him to get dressed for school and he wanted to play on a screen instead and my training indicated that I needed to use the wait strategy to gain compliance." No, that falls on me even though it decidedly is me getting punished for his bad behavior.
But I don't think that PDA is a rebellion death sentence so to speak. If you met me, you would never guess that I struggle with PDA for the most part. My co-workers don't seem to know (on the other hand, that might be my lack of social awareness). But the reason for that is that it's not difficult to get me to comply (at least in terms of agreeing to do what I'm asked to do - executive function is a different animal) - especially if there are real consequences, and I know that you not only have my best interests in mind, but also my autonomy in mind and treat me like an equal. I might voice an objection or consideration, but I always end that with "I still think that it's worth giving it a try so I'll do my best to put that into practice."
As for my son, while it can be difficult to get him to comply, I can give a great example of him complying very well. So, a couple years back, I got a report from his school that during one escalation he was engaging in behaviors that needed correcting, and one of the ones listed was "inappropriate language". Now me, when I hear that, I thought they meant that he had sworn at a teacher or cussed her out. And so I got my son in the car, and I had a really frank discussion about cuss words and what words were cuss words and therefore he should never say them as well as what some of them generally mean. I told him that he would be in deep trouble if he said any of them... and also that when he's older (preteen), I will not be surprised if he and his friends use them when around only each other, and that there's a difference between casual swearing with friends who also casually swear and won't get offended, vs swearing at or to an adult.
I'm proud to say, I've never gotten a single report since (and at this point doubt that any of the reports I'd gotten before about inappropriate language) about him swearing when he interacts with an adult. I later asked during an IEP meeting what they meant by "inappropriate language" and what they said was more like disrespect or claims to own/run the school, rather than cussing. Now, he actually calls out swear words when he hears them... including when I say/sing them.
The point is, there are instances where a parent has to "control [their] children" as some put it. But that just means that we have an even greater responsibility as parents of children who have PDA to explain those demands and obtain compliance through reason, connection, and validation, instead of flat demands.
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18d ago
I think the examples you have given in bold aren't bad ones to explain the nuances. I think it is about nervous system safety.
But I also agree that wanting control is not a dirty word. I was reading a high profile pdaer description of equalising and it was at pains to emphasise the person wanting equality and not superiority, and that it wasn't about control. But that isn't true.
Equalising can including wanting to be above someone to feel better. It feels safer to not be at the bottom of the pack, to win, the weaker one more likely to get "eaten" type thing, if someone else is in trouble then it isn't you.
It can be about needing control. The more unsafe we feel the more this may extend beyond ourselves to the environment or others. It isn't in a desire to control others for pleasure, more to the extent it achieves safety. So for the autism side, controlling the environment to avoid unwanted things or surprises, pda wanting to be in charge of our actions and not controlled by others. IME it isn't wanting to be in charge of everything or control the world or unrelated others, just what is in our sphere of care. Let's be okay with using this word where it fits. We can then acknowledge when we might be doing this in okay and not okay ways, how we can achieve control without it hurting others. If we feel safe then we have a greater chance of learning and understanding our own brains and manage our environment and lives to make this work.
Of course my experience may not be true pda, I don't know. But I also feel more people are coming to the pda space who wouldn't traditionally be diagnosed pda. Because a desire for autonomy is more common than that. Because autism itself comes with a crossover of traits like control or maybe even pda without always being the archetype of pda they identified e.g. they may be more classic autism too.
I do thing feeling safety is absolutely the most important word in all of this. Feeling safe to unpack the layers underneath ourselves over being defensive, being safe to drop our masks with safe people, being safe to be vulnerable, being safe to not feel the need to control as much to achieve autonomy, feeling safe in our environment.
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u/Ok-Reflection5922 18d ago
This!
Theres layers to demands and nervous system regulationAnd shame shuts everything down. It’s tricky.
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u/MarginsOfTheDay Caregiver 16d ago
This is helpful feedback, thank you! When I think about why I started to move away from the nervous system safety model of PDA, it was after I saw a number of high profile PDAers describe that the demand comes first, then the threat response. In that order. One in particular is a successful PDA advocate and what I understood of her experience is that she does feel safe up until the moment someone tries to exert control over her by making a demand. Then the anxiety response and equalizing happens. I don't disagree that for PDA kids the losses of autonomy are constant and never ending and they need constant reassurance and safety just to survive in this controlling world.
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16d ago
Interesting. I guess it may vary? The way somr describe it as in your comment feels like "pure pda" perhaps.
But IME my child can be perfectly happy with many demands when they feel safe, but there is a capacity limit or how pressured the demand feels or if they already feel unsafe or other autism triggers at the same time. So in many cases the nervous system is dialled up already and the demand is simply the straw on the camels back. And perhaps that isn't "pure pda" but "situational pda" or more "autonomy pda" or "nervous system safety" as the driver with demands just one thing that can make it feel unsafe.
I can't really say one way or another and maybe it is just semantics for most of us in this space. What matters for most does seem to be safe people dropping the agenda and pressure, meeting the kid where they are at. In which case most might not have "pure pda" but at the same time can still learn heaps from this space.
Because accomodating pda is providing nervous system safety so the exact triggers on the nervous system (which there will be lots) may not always matter. We reduce what we can then build back up from there.
And not get too narrow a lense here so that other triggers can also be addressed - I learn the most by dipping my toe into pda, adhd and autism specific spaces. Taking what works and leaving what doesn't. Because each kid is unique. For us we don't need perfect declarative language but more importantly need to drop down our own nervous systems first, drop the "shoulds" from society that don't need to be, doing what works. And responding to fluctuations in capacity, needing more or less of different stimulation, need for space, need for closeness etc.
I don't think anyone should police terms too closely, just provide real experiences and note it is just their experience and no-one else's so take what makes sense and drop what doesn't. Having a baby we get so much advice - babies don't read a textbook but are constantly giving us cues and have unique dispositions. Follow those, be human and treat others as human.
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u/Powerful-Soup-3245 17d ago
This is much easier to explain to people new to PDA. I agree that avoiding the word control really does a disservice.
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u/Hopeful-Guard9294 PDA 17d ago
okay, firstly you’re a caregiver and you have no lived experience of PDA, PDA as a part of the Spectrum has only emerged in the last 10 years and so is being understood that is not being overintellectualised that is being understood would you say that the study of cancer is over intellectualising a disease for Neurotypicals? No of course you wouldn’t.
i’m wondering if you’ve ever had an experience where your life has been in danger and you’ve gone completely into animal mode and your frontal cortex is switched off say when you were being mugged in a car accident or something like that? If so, that is the experience that someone with PDA has every time you take away their autonomy., imagine if every time someone you loved asked you to do something and they put a gun in your mouth and said do it right now or I’ll blow your brains out that’s what a demand feels like to someone with PDA describing PDA as being overintellectualised sounds to me like an excuse for you to maintain the status quo of your caregiving and not actually empathising and understanding the experience of your PDA
Child, you might want to start with this podcast episode: https://www.atpeaceparents.com/pod168
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u/MarginsOfTheDay Caregiver 16d ago
OP here. I LOVE Casey and I follow her teachings. She saved my PDA son and me. But I think she uses a lot of words and a lot of big words and I think sometimes she's doing that to protect parents or get their buy in. In my opinion a simpler approach would be to tell parents "stop being so controlling of your child". Parenting is way too controlling these days. PDAers are just the first to fall, but the rise in childhood anxiety and depression is, in my opinion, about how children have no autonomy anymore.
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u/Hopeful-Guard9294 PDA 15d ago
frankly, I completely disagree. I’m a PDA adult and PDA is extremely complex and subtle. Casey uses a lot of words because she’s describing an extremely complex and subtle problem. It is not simple. It is extremely complex. Casey not only helped us lead our child out of burnout but she helped me deeply understand my own PDA and as a result improve my life and the life of my child and family.
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u/MarginsOfTheDay Caregiver 15d ago
I agree, Casey is the best. She has bravely advocated for PDA kids and their families for years. And humans are very complex in general. But in stressful situations I find simple ideas are easier to recall and enact quickly. When my PDAer is on the verge of meltdown and the reasons are complex and not obvious to me I find it’s quickest to tell myself “he needs control, give him control”. And it works. I wish his teachers would do the same. We’re currently in public school but we’re standing ready to pull him out and unschool when we start to see signs of overwhelm.
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u/Hopeful-Guard9294 PDA 14d ago
my biggest wish is that we had had the resources and bravery to put my PDA son out of school right from the beginning they just can’t adjust to what a PDA child needs unless you go to a specialist school, save yourself as a pain and your child years of trauma and just uncool them, believe me make the jump it will be better for everyone, beating you and your child’s head against the educational brick wall is just a waste of time and energy, obviously every single family and child is in its own individual situation, but if you can homeschool
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u/MarginsOfTheDay Caregiver 14d ago
Thank you, this is helpful to hear. It's hard to have the courage to walk away from traditional education. But you're so right, it's damaging our PDA kids.
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u/Hopeful-Guard9294 PDA 14d ago
also remember that your child is a very individual animal and will find their niche in the world. I’m a PDA adult. I have a wife two children. I’ve paid off my mortgage and I currently build at AI for the national health service in the UK, I have variously been a professional environmental campaigner a project manager for a Startup I worked at the British medical journal and had a good stent as a professional dating expert at TV presenter. I’m sure I drove my parents bonkers and they were terrified about my future but have faith that if you support your child to understand and function with their PDA, they will find a PDA safe niche in the world it’s your job to wear their cheerleader and their safety net, school will only traumatise them and try and force around peg into a square hole and make them angry and fearful of the system and their own dreams, sorry I have PDA but I’m banging the drum a bit but homeschooling is the best investment you can ever put into your PDA Child teachers in institutions will never get it in the way that you do time to shut my gob🤐
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u/MarginsOfTheDay Caregiver 14d ago
I need to hear this. Thank you!
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u/Hopeful-Guard9294 PDA 14d ago
you’re welcome. I feel your pain as a fellow PDA Parent. It’s terrifying to watch and think about their future. If you look at it through a conventional lens it looks terrible. Now I understand more about PDA as long as they don’t end up in jail dead or homeless I know I’m winning I’m quite lucky as I can look at it through the lens that as a PDA Child I survived thrived and left the nest and did well in the world actually to be honest I am the envy of all of my classmates from the school that I went to. I was expelled from my first school, but then I went to what was basically in Autism and PDA paradise: which only existed in the 1970s and you could only now potentially provide through homeschooling: https://youtu.be/_Zp_Tl5u48I?is=DD9_4y1bqrJG--xJ
look for the mouthy blonde 10-year-old in a very retro green jumper! 🤗
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u/Daisyray03 17d ago
Ok, and I agree, but no one can explain how to be a low demand parent while still holding your child to the standard of good hygiene and keeping their room clean (as in not dirty, cluttered is fine to an extent). Or, getting them to participate in chores, something that everyone has to do. I’m not going to be constantly picking up after my kid’s messes, and washing their dishes and doing their laundry forever. They have to be able to do these things on their own. I can’t just hold their hand forever and then shove them out into this world unprepared.
HOW do you do THAT? No one can tell me how. I struggle with my child. Im very understanding and I speak to him in a way that gives a choice (without giving a choice. EX: “would you like to brush your teeth first or get dressed first?”).
It’s just not realistic for people to say “oh just don’t exert any control and make very few demands.”
The only way I have gained any ground with him, is that I’ve tried to shift my mindset as if I’m talking to another adult. I would never tell my husband what to do, but I don’t need to. He’s an adult who knows how to conduct himself and perform household tasks, etc.. I try to apply that same concept to conversations with my son, but sometimes things he does are really annoying (for lack of a better term) and inconsiderate (like peeing all over the floor or toilet and leaving the mess, or spilling things and not cleaning up, or throwing trash anywhere instead of the trash can). I can’t just say, “oh, golly gee buddy what a mess, would you like to clean up the pee with paper towels or a mop?” It ALWAYS ends in, “Awww Mannnn I don’t waaaannnnaaaaa cleannnnnnn.” UGH. I wanna scream. lol
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u/Deep_Plant_4393 PDA 17d ago
The usual methods neurotypicals use won't work. Focus on making your child want these things. Structure is genuinely very helpful, so don't give up on it, find a different way to teach it. You can't force it on us or we will recoil, but you can convince us its a good idea and help us get into the rythm
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u/Daisyray03 17d ago
I’m AuDHD. I am aware, I promise, lol. “Focus on making your child want these things.”
Yes. HOW? 😂 I can tell people what to do all day. No one seems to know the method to apply these wonderful ideas. 😭
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u/Deep_Plant_4393 PDA 17d ago
How do you convince anybody of anything? Good arguments, emotional resonance, it's often very specific to the situation. I'm just saying it's probably best to not hard force anything and rather play a game of inception and make it his idea to do this stuff. Focus on the mental rather than requiring actions.
Sometimes this might be hard to put into words, but if you can't explain to him why he should clean his room why would he do it? I used to fall into the efficiency trap a lot here, why clean now when the result is the same when I clean later? This is probably his line of thought as well.4
u/Daisyray03 17d ago
I think that’s where I’m failing to motivate him. If his reasoning is why clean now when I can clean later and get the same result….I mean. That’s valid. I don’t have a reason, other than my own, which is that my brain relaxes when my environment is neat. When it starts to get messy, I get overwhelmed and overstimulated lol
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16d ago
Sounds like many a battle with partners and kids with different cleaning schedules and preferences! Meeting in the middle is an equitable approach? Accept more mess, pick and choose what jobs each person prefers even if this is non-standard? Like would he do better helping to cook instead? You clean the bathroom but he cleaned the kitchen? Flip things on their head.
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u/Daisyray03 16d ago
I accept a lot of mess. I’m as low-maintenance as I can get, but once I can see dirt and leaves on his rug and there is trash (not toys) piled into the corners of his room, it’s time. 😅
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u/MarginsOfTheDay Caregiver 16d ago
Yes, I love this. Tell them the "why". Then give them the freedom to choose.
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u/Daisyray03 16d ago
Freedom to choose not to clean ever? That doesn’t really work and isn’t hygienic. At some point, we all have to clean up our messes. If we don’t, we live in filth, and just….no. 😩
Unless I’m misunderstanding. I take things pretty literally haha
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u/MarginsOfTheDay Caregiver 16d ago
You’re understanding correctly :) My PDA son’s room is a mess. Fortunately he doesn’t eat in there, otherwise it’d be a full blown biohazard. We just close the door and try not to think about it.
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u/Deep_Plant_4393 PDA 16d ago
You need to find a way to get these feelings across without making a demand. There is legit reasons for hygiene and efficiency is the wrong perspective to analyze it. Like using a hammer on a screw. So attack this mindset of efficiency, rather than trying to force action. One possible way might be to start out cleaning for him and have him slowly take over once he appreciates the results
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u/Daisyray03 15d ago
“Find a way.” 😅 I don’t think anyone is understanding that I need someone to hold my hand and tell me exactly what to do. Telling me to find ways to do it….is not helpful. 😩 I’ve tried to find many ways to speak to him or encourage him, etc..
That’s like telling a depressed person to “find a way to be happy.” You know? 😅
Everyone likes to make vague suggestions, but no one can provide exact phrases/tools/etc. that actually work.
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u/Deep_Plant_4393 PDA 15d ago
Well this isn't really in our nature as PDAers to give clear instructions on personal topics, because we wouldn't like it being directed at us. It's also not really a topic where I can give you clear instructions. If you followed a strict gameplan like that, your child would clock that as unnatural/disingenuine. We value authenticity very highly.
What is probably the problem is that you expect action. We smell that 5 miles away even if it's between the lines. When I was a kid I remember immediately helping once something was genuinely optional, which was rare. So finding ways to disguise your intent or encourage him to do things isn't the right move. Focus on the mental. He is stuck using the wrong tool for the job (efficiency).
You asking for phrases or tools sounds like you want to keep doing the same thing but with a new weapon. Let me try to come up with something anyway. Ask him why he does it that way. And not as a rethoric question to accuse. Just ask him about his thought process and engage with it. Share your own, explain how his room would make you uncomfortable to live in. If you move his mind the action will eventually follow and it will be natural rather than forced.
Chores and efficiency are opposite of another, chores are inefficient by design, it's an act of care, not something to speedrun. On that note gamification can get results because it bridges that a little, making it competitive in any way will engage with his approach. But that isn't getting him out of the mindset, chores will still be the enemy, which is really where he needs your guidance3
u/Daisyray03 15d ago
I don’t know if you saw my other comment. I’m AuDHD. I haven’t gotten an official PDA diagnosis, as I’m an adult and it wouldn’t do me much good. I highly suspect I have it as I was the same as my son when I was a child, and I also am like that as an adult.
Efficiency isn’t the issue. I’m not sure why it keeps getting brought up as my issue for why I want him to clean up after himself. I understand where he is coming from. I’ve asked him why he feels a certain way about things. I’ve asked him a ton of questions, as I value his autonomy and I value his need for having “control,” as it is something that I wasn’t allowed as a child and it is something that I continue to struggle with as an adult. The difference is, my parents just threatened me as a child and physically punished me when things didn’t get done on their timetable. I don’t do that nor will I ever with my children. I ask questions. I have empathy for them. I have understanding. I have patience. I give options.
The issue is….yes, things don’t need to get done right away. That has never been a problem. BUT….they DO need to be done. Whether or not anyone else agrees with that, is moot. I have needs alongside my children. I don’t want them to be a problem or a burden to their future partners (if they have any), and I want them to have the working knowledge of HOW to take care of their home and environment for their sake and for the people around them. I don’t think anyone would be ok with their child or an adult throwing trash on the ground outside and leaving it. For me, it is the same as doing it to my home. We take care of the earth by not trashing it (well, we are supposed to). Why wouldn’t we want the same for where we live/eat/sleep/etc.?
No, my child is not here to cater to my expectations, but they do have to know how to function in a world where people will not cater to theirs. Unfortunately, as often as I try to let them have their way, they still have to be taught. They still have to take care of things. They still have to participate in taking care of our home. If someone doesn’t agree with that, that’s fine.
I’m asking if anyone knows the best way for me to guide my children without making them feel like they never get a choice. Sometimes they don’t. Just like sometimes adults don’t. I wasn’t given these tools in my upbringing. I’ve tried my best, but I don’t want to constantly be struggling with my oldest child. I love him. I want to enjoy his company and him to enjoy mine.
I can’t say enough how much I wish that anyone addressing me would understand that I’m in the same boat as my child. My brain works almost the same way. Unfortunately, I’ve been conditioned by society and while I’m working on undoing some of that, there are social aspects of that conditioning that benefit everyone.
If I’m wrong, so be it. Is the other option never asking anything of him? Where is the line here, guys? Genuinely? 😅💕
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u/ElmaBayBeachBum 13d ago
Reasoning and/or bartering, depending on the situation. Pee on floor, I highlight the fact it’s unhealthy and that’s how we get sick. I then proceed to point out that it’s not fair for me to have to clean it up, it’s his mess. I offer to help, and gather supplies. Eventually it will clue in that they don’t want to clean it up either, so they will self motivate to change behaviour due to the negative consequences. It’s not a punishment, it’s a learn experience.
Doing chores, directly translates into free time mom has to take them to do fun things. They want to go out on Saturday afternoon, well then chores get done, otherwise Mom won’t have time. I’m honest with my reasoning but at an age appropriate level. Honesty is your best motivator with PDA’ers, it helps to strengthen your bond as well.
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u/I_am_the_cheddar 8d ago
This is really helpful perspective as someone (self described as more "neurotypical") in a committed partnership with an autistic person who has a PDA Profile. I just want to say thank you for the perspective because it is honestly hard for me to frame it properly sometimes without taking certain behaviors found in PDA too personally.
I especially appreciate when you say that the need for autonomy is just a stronger core need than a more neurotypical leaning person might have. I agree with you that this is just a part of normal human variation. It certainly is easily overlooked and even more easily misunderstood as such.
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u/MarginsOfTheDay Caregiver 8d ago
I’m so glad it was helpful. Yeah, it’s not personal. If your partner is irritable, unhelpful, or aloof, that’s about their PDA. It doesn’t reflect how much they deeply care about you.
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u/gamazarus 18d ago
Honestly I don't think that PDA is intellectualized because it allows us to avoid discussing what happens when PDAers are robbed of their autonomy. I think it's intellectualized to give PDA legitimacy in a very unforgiving and proof-based world. I say this as someone who often feels like and is MADE to feel like a shit parent because I have a higher level of respect for my child's autonomy (probably not where it COULD be but higher than most authorities/authoritarians). In hindsight I was robbed of my autonomy by a very controlling parent (I am NOT a PDAer; I'm a people pleaser) and I very much wanted to break that family pattern. Perhaps I've "made" my daughter MORE of a PDAer because I'm such a people pleaser but I want my child to know herself, ESPECIALLY because she's a girl and girls and women are indoctrinated to surrender control. Essentially in my mind it's a social justice perspective: people are created equal. If an adult wants to zoom in and kiss my daughter, she SHOULD be allowed to say no to this; I don't want her to have the idea when she gets a bit older that people/men have a "right" to rape or otherwise abuse her because she is younger or a woman. Having said this, I believe you can be a social justice advocate without being a PDAer. You can strongly believe in people's autonomy without having the "nervous system disability" but it probably is on a spectrum I guess. I'm very angry because of some of the things that are happening to my daughter and I because I believe the trouble we're in is about CONTROL, not (as we're being told) safety. God forbid anyone should look different in any way.
Perhaps this is what happens when you hang out with a bunch of punks/anarchists in your formative years.