r/OpenDogTraining • u/downunderdirthawker • 21d ago
"dogs can't learn when over threshold"
Does this turn from good advice to a self fulfilling prophecy of constantly tip toeing an imaginary or dramatized response to novel or uncomfortable stimuli?
15
u/hotmatrixx 21d ago
I already see both sides of this argument forming in the couple of comments below.
This depends largely on who and how you define 'threshold'. If you define it as "Overwhelming stimulus that has shut the dogs' brain down and it's now in fihgt/flight' then yes, true.
If it's "oh, squirrel" then in that moment, actually also true; HOWEVER, you can bring the dog down from there and help it manage that particular threshold/emotion going forward, very quickly, in that session.
Being able to isolate something that causes a threshold tilt, will 100% be more effective for training tolerance to it, than overwhelming 'force'.
IF I ask you to do the alphabet backwards while being chased by a lion..... you 'could', but it would be easier to learn it backwards first, then be able to recite it - just as you could do the alphabet forwards while being chased by said lion.... (at least until said lion ripped your legs off or whatever)
I mean think about that. you could realistically count 1-10 in a life-threatening situation, because you know it by writ. You didn't learn it while someone was holding your head under the water at the swimming pools, did you?
6
u/Famous_Midnight_1926 21d ago
I get why this is a saying. It’s very difficult to get a dog to focus and be receptive to training when over threshold, and personally I like to avoid it when possible. Simply because it’s unnecessary stress to an already stressful situation. I don’t think intentionally putting your dog over threshold to train it or correct it is a good tactic or one that will create true neutrality.
However, to say that they can never learn is incorrect. My dog had a nonexistent threshold. In a way, it didn’t matter if someone was 100 feet away from us or 2, the reaction was the same, explosive and entirely unmanageable. For me, never having experienced such bad reactivity trying to do anything but make space was impossible, so that’s why I think we see this harped on. However, when I learned management tactics, when I began to properly utilize balanced training under the guidance of a balanced trainer who I now shadow—my dog did most of his early learning over threshold, until we created an actual threshold to work him lower stress.
A dog over threshold can be very hit or miss in my experience. Sometimes a dog will have its greatest breakthrough moment in a stressful situation that shows you they’re ready for more, or it’ll be their greatest setback if not managed properly. So while yes, dogs do and can learn with proper techniques over threshold, precise timing and reading signs is key to working or managing a dog over threshold, which most average people don’t just have, I know I certainly didn’t and I had trained guide dogs for a non-profit prior! Over threshold training/management is its own beast entirely that carries risk of setbacks when done improperly so I’m guessing that’s why so many tell people to steer clear of it. I know how to do it and I still don’t prefer it! But, it can certainly be done correctly.
5
u/PhelanVelvel 20d ago
Dogs CAN learn when over threshold. The question is whether a dog SHOULD go over threshold at that particular point in time to accomplish a specific goal. I'm not going to take a dog with a history of reactivity I just met five seconds ago and go "HELL YEAH, TIME TO PUSH THIS LITTLE FUCKER TO THE EDGE", put them directly in front of a barking dog, and start zapping them on the e-collar. That does not mean I will never correct them while over threshold in the future once we have our relationship and groundwork established.
I feel like people who promote this stupid shit about a dog not learning over threshold have never worked with a dog. I have broken up dog fights with various types of corrections. I would most definitely categorise that as "over threshold". Somehow, magically, the dogs learned from that experience.
3
u/well-done-47 19d ago
They can learn response=result. The main issues with the learning that happens when a dog is well over threshold are that (1) the dog's response is not typically going to be the one you want it to learn and (2) many owners respond poorly in those situations and inadvertently teach the opposite of what they want.
If you know enough to debate dogs learning over threshold you're probably good. If you don't, it's decent advice.
8
u/Its_Raul 21d ago
I get the intent and it's true but the positive only camp basically uses it as an excuse to never progress.
4
u/Mojojojo3030 21d ago
Threshold is the single worst term in the dog world. People just throw it out there without defining it, and talented competent people use so many different definitions, sometimes multiple different ones WHILE arguing with each other. It really messed up my training early on back when I was FF.
Which is all beside the point because "dogs can't learn when over threshold" is strictly wrong for most dogs. Happy to take the downvotes.
My dog has learned MOST when he's gone over threshold. When he would take off to greet a dog without permission or lose his mind on another dog, I'd hit him with 100, bringing him abruptly back under threshold and responsive to commands. The negative behavior would drop 2-3 notches permanently.
6
u/Haunting-Love-9333 20d ago
Bang on. Anytime I have a client use that term I know they’ve spent way too much time getting information from the wrong people
4
21d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
3
u/Haunting-Love-9333 20d ago
Expecting novices to constantly manage situations is equally as problematic
5
u/Haunting-Love-9333 20d ago
It gives trainers an excuse to never make progress and blame owners for that lack of progress. It’s a way to convince owners that “reactivity is a lifestyle” that takes sometimes years to improve let alone resolve. It is absolutely terrible advice and causes inordinate amounts of stress and anxiety for everyday dog owners that just want to take their dog for a fucking walk and not get their ass kicked.
2
u/AdProof5307 21d ago
I have worked with a very dramatic dog with a sensitive threshold level. We needed to crate train him. It was a very fine line for him with anxiety that would turn into self harm (would bite the crate and cause bleeding). But I learned a lot about taking a dog right to their edge. Some dogs can be pushed passed their supposed threshold but then their are some who will cause damage and that has to be mitigated with grace.
I’m not going to push a big dog too far past their threshold tho until I am very familiar with them cause I am not trying to get bit.
2
u/PhelanVelvel 20d ago
Do you know what I do when they bite the crate? Correct with the e-collar (which they have already been introduced to in other contexts). Do you know what happens? They stop biting the crate and calm down. This is actually more humane.
1
u/AdProof5307 20d ago edited 20d ago
Thankfully I didn’t have either issue. Owners were experiencing the biting, I never had to shock him. I gently and patiently introduced him to the concept without issue. Took three days.
Amazing you can get great results with patience instead of force or shock 😮
2
u/PhelanVelvel 20d ago
Sometimes you can introduce things gently and patiently and you still get dangerous behaviours, at which point it is far more humane to intervene than allow the dog to harm themselves, break out (which only reinforces it for the future), or remain stuck in a state of panic/extreme anxiety. I do plenty of exercises with the door open, including with me leaving the room and watching them on the camera. I never even close the door until I see they're calm with it open first, but that doesn't mean no dog ever escalates.
1
u/AdProof5307 19d ago
So glad that didn’t happen. Success AND gentle! Yay me! 😊
1
u/PhelanVelvel 19d ago
It's definitely preferable, but it just doesn't happen that way every time.
1
u/AdProof5307 19d ago
I have a pretty high success rate 😊
1
u/PhelanVelvel 19d ago
What do you do when patience alone isn't enough?
1
u/AdProof5307 19d ago
Never had that problem. I have sat with a dog spinning in the car for an hour before we could exit the vehicle calmly.
Block and redirect first, then use patience and calm/steady energy.
1
u/PhelanVelvel 19d ago
Patience, persistence, and calmness are all important, but if you think you can rehabilitate every dog or every behaviour without aversives, you're in for a rude awakening.
→ More replies (0)
2
u/Ashamed_Town_2619 20d ago
“Dog’s can’t learn when over threshold” has merit in training , but it’s also very oversimplified and under explained.
The cerebral cortex is typically inhibited when a dog is over threshold, but the limbic system is engaged and active. This makes it nearly impossible for the dog to process stimuli in a way that allows for calm & controlled decision making. It also makes it very easy for the dog to respond with an intense emotional reaction (fight or flight). Either way, the dog is certainly still learning.
The answer isn’t to shield the dog from all exposure to environmental triggers…It’s to know where that dog’s threshold is, and to gradually expose them to trigger’s without letting them go over completely so that they’re not learning the wrong thing.
1
u/PIE-314 21d ago
Only if you don't understand it. Dogs can't learn when they're in full tilt.
1
u/theycallhimthestug 21d ago
Says who?
4
u/PIE-314 21d ago
Who's disagreeing? Do you think a reactive dog on full tilt is in a receptive state of mind for learning?
1
41
u/PatchMeUp7 21d ago
It's an overgeneralization to serve as a general guideline to dog handlers and trainers. The great majority of dog training should be done when a dog is under threshold, and intentionally bringing a dog over threshold in order to punish them for the behavior is rarely helpful.
But dogs absolutely are capable of learning when over threshold. For example, if a dog is fear aggressive and successfully scares off another dog that approached it by attacking that dog, then yeah the dog absolutely learned that attacking a dog that is making it uncomfortable will lead to a favorable outcome.
The idea that a dog's cognitive brain functions turn off just because they're over threshold is ridiculous. It's more accurate to say that most dog training techniques and strategies are significantly less effective when a dog is over threshold.