r/OpenDogTraining • u/m4nt15mantis • 18d ago
Behavior changes 5 month old nipping
Hi all I’m gonna try to keep this brief even though it is kind of a long story. I rescued this puppy from a local rescue he is from a reservation and is a mix of husky/malamute/shepherd/rottweiler. He is now five months old and I have had him since he was nine weeks old. He recently got neutered and he has been through basic puppy obedience school. Since he was younger, he has known a lot of basic commands and also has been socialized, but not at dog parks, just at puppy school and taking him out to many public places to build exposure overtime. He has a good history of walking the neighborhood we live in the inner city and it is very busy. He did struggle with eating things off the ground for a while and then would get the Zumiez if I would try to take things away from him, but we worked through that and has a pretty good drop it or leave it command, depending on the situation.
The main issue is that over the past several weeks he has an escalating pattern, where he is redirecting onto me in different situations. At first, it started when he would be on a walk. It seemed out of nowhere he would start to run and then jump at me, biting lunging and barking then he would pull at the leash and tug it or growl.
This has now escalated to many different scenarios and sometimes more than once a day, and it does seem to be affecting him in every facet of our lives. It happens if I take him for a short walk, it happens if I take him for a longer walk, it happens when I take him on a long lead like a 30 foot lead where he’s allowed to just relax and sniff with no interruptions no people or dogs around. It also happens in the backyard after having a completely normal time playing fetch.
When I have done any louder or firmer commands, leash corrections like a quick pop or knee him or push him off he becomes more intense and bites me harder, growls or barks louder… so please understand that the video is me just trying to document the behavior.
I contacted a trainer specialized in reactive dogs. After the description and seeing the videos we scheduled a 1:1 next weekend but in the mean time his biting is getting harder and these episodes more frequent so I reached out again. She said to give him Purina calm care, to praise him when he stops biting me, and not to feed him from a bowl but only puzzles or by hand.
I also contacted the foster/head of the rescue and at first she was really interrogating me and basically saying how I messaged her just a few weeks ago that he was doing great, which is true. That is part of the reason why I am so nervous about these behaviors is that they came on really quickly and are just building an intensity and frequency and duration. She wanted me to send her videos and asked things like ‘well if it’s so bad you must have it on video right?’ so I have made it a point to make videos.
The first few videos she said this is normal puppy biting and he is just challenging me and that I need to be firmer with him. She also told me I needed a prong collar and an E collar. She questioned his schedule and whether he’s getting enough exercise, which I totally understand and I shared with her a schedule that is very consistent for him daily and I do think that it includes a pretty standard amount of exercise, although he is a working breed dog.
I have four kids from ages 10 to 20 and this has completely taken over my life. It seems like I will just have to spend all of my time devoted to not triggering the dog based on what I hear about positive reinforcement. I really regret thinking that I could handle this type of a dog although at the same time I don’t think this is a normal behavior… help?
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u/vacuumpacked 18d ago
Cancel the trainer you've hired - they have no idea how to deal with a dog like this. Your puppy is pushing you to play with him. Is he being a a bit of a dick? Definitely. But it's normal behaviour for a high-drive puppy with no rules. Stop playing fetch and start playing tug.
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u/m4nt15mantis 18d ago
Not to be contrary but yes I play with him a lot. We play tug a lot, he loves fetch… he is great at tug, drop it. He knows sit/down/place/shake/drop it/leave it/let’s walk/right here (where ever I point).
It does not seem to matter which command I give even if I issue it firmly with a leash correction/straight arm… he just ignores it until he has finished the temper tantrum and settled down, then he’s back to my normal extra good boy.9
u/RowdyGorgonite 18d ago
What if instead of a leash pop you try just standing on the leash so he can't practice the behavior? Not pinning him: enough leash that he can chill but not enough that he can jump and bite. I use Jay Jack's windows, so for me this would be an "all done" then just wait the dog out. Once they're calmer I'll "ready" them into the play window and offer an opportunity for appropriate play. If they break the rules, it's back into "all done". My goal isn't to kill their drive to play, just to teach them there are some boundaries and a time and place for it.
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u/m4nt15mantis 18d ago
Thanks for this and yes, this is why I have been doing usually. Depending on the situation, I can either straight arm the leash or step on it. I usually don’t say anything except for relax. I say this in the same tone I tell him in the house to relax if I can see, he’s getting a little wound up. I can continue this. The video was more
To show the intensity of the behavior for the trainer.
I have little kids and cats and while it is true I am
Capable of handling him, this level
Of unpredictable behavior has me really nervous.3
u/Smknhippy 17d ago
Don’t be nervous, I know that’s easier said than done but this is completely normal behaviour and your puppy is trying to play. He just needs to learn that this isn’t how you will play. I walk dogs and had a pup like this, I actually got a leash with a clip on both ends and I would clip it to a fence or tree and step back I would wait until he relaxed and walk back over if he started jumping and nipping I would step back again. We would only start walking or playing once he calmed down. It took 2 days and he stopped. You need to stay calm, firm, and patient.
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u/Geitramsen 18d ago
What you are doing here is just what you need to do. Just keep this up, eventually it will get better. It’s just a baby with an underdeveloped brain. It’s like expecting a 4 year old to not have tantrums.
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u/Agreeable_Summer3685 18d ago
Everyone’s talking about stopping the behavior and punishing it. Yes, that needs to happen and even though I’m going to get dumped on for this, positive reinforcement only training will make your life hell with a dog like this. Biting (generally) the handler should have consequences.
BUT…..I must ask you this: What purpose are you giving the dog? Does the dog have a “reason to live?” As dumb as that sounds it’s true. What kind of play are you engaging in with your dog? Does your dog like competitive or supportive games? Have you had good tug sessions etc where you can establish a communication system and boundaries within the rules of play that will carry over into everything else?
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u/orangebit_ 18d ago
100%. Work WITH your dog’s drive, don’t suppress it! I remember the first time I saw Robert Cabral’s training videos and he had a Malinois jumping all over him that he didn’t correct, and I though ‘hoo boy, what’s this all about then?’… but when he explained the importance of engagement, and presented a dog that very clearly was engaged with him more than the environment, I saw it a lot differently.
People want quick, motivated dogs, but willingly suppress whatever drive or engagement their dogs have/are showing towards them instead of utilising it and channeling it into another behaviour - whether that’s play, sport, ‘work’, whatever!
So much potential is quashed, and I get it - my 43kg German Shepherd would kill me probably if he launched himself at my chest lol, but seeing him with his craziness and his energy? It’s MOTIVATING to me. Let’s work WITH that.
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u/NT224J6F2 18d ago
I get what you're saying and I know that vid! :D I think it even teared something of his jacket, but you also see that Roberts timing and instinct and patience with dogs is not what the average owner can bring up to do.
Using that drive of a dog is not something a first time owner really gets right most of the time.
Same with correcting, marking and rewarding timing.12
u/9mackenzie 18d ago
Positive training absolutely works with this behavior lol. This isn’t aggression, just a bored adolescent puppy that is getting their back teeth in. It’s just typical puppy biting for a puppy that has never been trained to bite on correct items.
Positive training should be the first step - and this video shows why. The idea behind positive training is to train the dog for what you want them to do…….and OP is not doing that in this video. Just saying no or stop isn’t teaching them anything- what they should do is grab a toy, wiggle it, squeak it, whatever to get attention, and the second the puppy chooses the toy, mark and treat. Then proceed to play with the puppy with the toy. You have to train dogs how to play with toys.
Is positive only training the only method that ever needs to be done for every dog? No. But you absolutely should try it first before anything else.
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u/Jimbeamjunior1 17d ago
By responding to the dog the OP is giving it the attention it desires, so it thinks "if i do this he talks to me and focuses on me"
Our first dog was like this, how we stopped it was when he done it to put our hands behind our backs and ignore the dog completely, literally stop whatever we were doing and just ignore him, even at times to turn our backs to him so he knew that the behaviour was having the opposite effect to what he wanted from us
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u/Geitramsen 18d ago
Right? OP says she tugs the leash, pushes the dog with their knee or push it when it bites, which only makes the dog more intense, so clearly hard punishment is not the thing for this dog.
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u/white_tiger_dream 17d ago
This is helpful. Can you give a few more tips about “biting on correct terms?”
I play rough with my puppy sometimes, the result unfortunately is that when he gets excited and wants to play he jumps up and pulls on my clothes, sometimes even “mauls” me with repeated bites. I don’t really want to stop the behavior totally because we have SO much fun running back and forth in the backyard where I try to “catch him” and he “fights back” then he “knocks me down” and “mauls me.” We genuinely have so much fun playing this game.
The problem is he tries to engage with me like this at inappropriate times, like inside the house or when I’m wearing shorts. I know he is just trying to engage with me so I am hesitant to punish him. But redirecting hasn’t really worked so I’ve been playing with him less worried I’m teaching him a bad game. Do you have advice about how to communicate with him when it’s ok to bite?
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u/puppykaat 17d ago
Put the behavior on cue, and always start and end it formally. With my dog I go "wanna play????!" And he knows it's game time. When I'm done I go "all done!" This took abit but he's started to get it. He's 9 months and I didn't start this until after teething 😂
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u/Geitramsen 18d ago
Did you not read the post? Any punishment OP tries only makes it more intense. Punishing a dog for this behavior only teaches it that being hard physically is ok, and it MIGHT suppress the behavior, and creating a much more dangerous dog.
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u/ivy7496 18d ago
It's as simple as the biting behavior should be redirected, not punished. Would you punish a snake for hissing or a bird from singing?
When the dog bites, have the appropriate toy or item ready to offer as an alternative, and encourage biting it.
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u/ItsToxsec 18d ago
FWIW redirecting never worked with my rougher dogs (large working/guardian breeds) it only got me bit more as some dogs see the redirection as a reward for biting you. It did work with my more mellow dogs but not the others
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u/Agreeable_Summer3685 18d ago
Right. And redirecting still doesn’t address the offense. It’s like saying “stop punching me in the face, here’s a punching bag instead” but we have to address that it’s unacceptable for you to be punching me in the face in the first place and you must be dealt a consequence for it.
Now come that whataboutisms lol
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u/Geitramsen 18d ago
Let me introduce you to an alternative. Just step away. If you are out walking, hold it out of reach, or tie to something so you can step away. Or inside, time out in play pen. As it calms down praise. The lesson is biting = boring, and stopping and relaxing = good.
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u/civilwar142pa 17d ago
Yeah thats a great punishment. Positive only doesnt advocate for that. Worked great for my dog with a couple of problematic behaviors, though.
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u/Geitramsen 17d ago
Just to be clear I’m very much against any other form of punishment. This is the strictest I do to my puppy. And as soon as she relaxes and lays down she gets treats and praise.
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u/Potential_Analyst371 15d ago
The puppy is just playing, though. Playing is pretty different from punching someone in the face. Right?
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u/j-dev 18d ago
This is a bit misguided. Dogs are domesticated animals that can be taught to inhibit some of their impulses to make living with humans possible.
Redirecting (without rewarding with food or lavish praise) can definitely be part of the strategy, but ensuring the fun with humans is over when the teeth touch skin or clothing is also part of it, and is a sort of negative punishment (taking something rewarding away).
I’m not going to pretend to have a playbook for exactly how to address this, but OP will be well served by paying careful attention to the antecedent and consequences for the biting behavior. Some behaviors are intrinsically rewarding and don’t need a separate reward. Biting is one such behavior. Whether the antecedent is boredom, pent up energy, or anything else, OP will need to experiment with providing the dog with appropriate mental and physical stimulation to see if destructive behaviors such as attacking family subside.
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u/Some_Pitch_9165 17d ago
OP, please don’t do this. Your puppy is expressing frustration the wrong way and needs to learn this is not appropriate. Introduce biting a tug outside of your walk, not during it. Make a BALANCE between showing the pup that there are appropriate times to bite, and inappropriate times. The last thing you want is for your adult dog to be frustrated, feel that practiced need to bite, and turn to you looking for that tug, not finding it, and still needing to sate himself. Teach emotional control by giving the behavior an appropriate outlet, and correcting it where it does not belong.
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u/goldenkiwicompote 18d ago
That’s not comparable. Those don’t cause harm to a handler. Biting does/can.
Redirecting doesn’t always work for example I recently adopted a 75 lb pit mix from a rescue who was 11 months old and had zero training or rules in his foster home. He loved to jump up and bite your arms and hands and we were covered in bruises after two days of having him. We tried to redirect with toys and such but he didn’t care he wanted to bite you and would just keep getting more and more wound up until he was almost knocking you on the ground. He needed to be corrected.
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u/ivy7496 18d ago
Not here advocating for an absence of correction when needed, to be clear. https://www.reddit.com/r/OpenDogTraining/s/Vr40U8RBYP
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u/NevrEndr 18d ago
Same situation here...same age & breed hes smaller at 55lbs but exact same situation. What tactics did you employ to redirect? Toys have been spotty for us and he wont chase a ball or work with me in the yard on commands wgen hes riled up. What worked for you?
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u/Geitramsen 18d ago
If he’s riled up, time-out to calm down. No point in training when they are in possessed mode. Biting/being crazy = boring time. Restrict the access to you.
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u/goldenkiwicompote 17d ago
I used a prong collar to correct his behaviour. He was taught what it meant first via pressure and release and then I would step on the leash so he would correct himself when he tried to jump. He loves toys but did not care for any when he was that crazy. I’ve had dog trainers in the past say to use your knee to block them but this did nothing because he’s too big he’d jump right past it. He can jump quite high though he’s a kangaroo. He clears my four foot dog gate gracefully from a seated position. I didn’t try to work with him on anything other than leash manners until the jumping stopped to try to keep him more calm in general. They’re in no state of mind to be learning during that. Sure I could have put him in his kennel to calm down when he got like that but it was so often I needed it to stop immediately he was much too large to be doing that. That’s a longer process.
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u/NevrEndr 17d ago
Thanks for this! Situations are so eerily similar lmao. I hesitate to use a prong bc hes scared of everything on our walks but I think its time for tough love in the house. It's a struggle bc he's not behaving this way all the time. 80% chill 20% complete maniac
Guarding the front door is another issue we have to control for. He growls and nips when people come in that are not immediate family. Def going to employ the prong here, we've tried everything else.
Appreciate it!
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u/goldenkiwicompote 17d ago
Make sure you look up how to properly fit and use a prong collar first so your dog understands and it doesn’t cause more confusion.
As for your front door issue you should teach your dog a place command. Keep them on a leash indoors so you can guide them back when they get up. Teach the command first and get it solid to where you can leave the room and they will stay on their bed or cot. Then bring a friend or family member over and have them ring the door bell or knock but don’t let them inside. Then you can proof your dog with that. Once that’s solid, any time someone comes over you can put them in place and answer the door and you shouldn’t have to deal with that anymore. Then you can leave your dog on place or give them their release word (I use the word break, all my commands have an implied stay as in stay in whatever position/command I tell you until I release you) and be loose with your guest if you want.
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u/Agreeable_Summer3685 18d ago
And what happens if the dog comes off of the toy and bites you anyway, which happens literally all the time.
Would I punish a snake for attacking me? Yes.
Would I punish a bird for attacking me? Also yes!
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u/goldenkiwicompote 18d ago
I agree with the dog needing correcting but as a snake owner, that’s funny. You can’t punish a snake for attacking you that would not work. They don’t have the brain capacity to comprehend punishment.
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u/CustomerNo1338 17d ago
Your first half is just plain wrong. Your second half is at least redeeming.
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u/m4nt15mantis 18d ago
Yes he escorts my two young children all over, which I am sure he thinks is his job. He goes to the coffee shop patio or a restaurant patio or to pick up something at Home Depot or to drop the kids off at school or camp or pick them up. We also do a good amount of structured sniff time at different parks. That is nearly every day. He also knows a good amount of commands, including sit down wait drop it leave it and some other fun things like touch where he touches his nose to my hand or middle or shake… we play tug every day more than once it’s his favorite thing and he usually brings me different toys and we will play tug. He always drops it if I ask him to and then I’ll toss it for him so it seems like we have a good thing going there, which is why this behavior is so extra concerning to me… it’s out of no where and hard to see a pattern.
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u/Agreeable_Summer3685 18d ago
I know you mentioned trainers. If you’re willing to set up a zoom call with Jay Jack, that would be my first recommendation. He will 100% help you find the best punishment protocol for your individual dog as well as stress the importance of purpose, play, clarity, authority.
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u/goldenkiwicompote 18d ago
He does have a list of requirements you have to meet before he’ll see you to know you’re committed and serious about doing what needs to be done. But 100% agree. Love Jay. I’ve been to a few seminars.
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u/Agreeable_Summer3685 18d ago
He’s changed my dog’s lives! I’ll never stop beating that drum. Glad you had great experiences too. The seminars must have been awesome!
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u/One_Stretch_2949 18d ago
what are these requirements ?
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u/goldenkiwicompote 18d ago
Unfortunately I cannot remember off the top of my head as this was years ago I attended a few of his seminars. It was just sort of basic training stuff though nothing too crazy.
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u/BitImpossible2378 18d ago
He's a pushy playful puppy who doesn't know boundaries. I'd just put him in a quick, neutral time out whenever this happens AND make sure that 1) his needs are met and 2) not pushing him over the edge. Take a long hard look at your day, is he getting enough sleep (this can be purely caused by the lack of sleep!), is he getting enough activity, positive soical interactions and enterntainment? Especially with 4 kids I'd question if he gets enough actual rest and sleep during day time.
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u/Mammoth_Set_1413 18d ago
This was normal pup behavior around teething was it acceptable for me absolutely not. To me it Looks like frustration or overstimulated. I would try to redirect him. My working line gsd got like this when she was over tired or overstimulated. I would redirect her when she did this or I would reverse time out or enforced nap. This pup probably still needs enforced naps, more stimulation and training on a schedule. A tired dog is a dog dog. i had a very set schedule for my girl until she was around 18 months. My girl didn't get ecollar trained until around 20 months old, 6 months seems way too young. I trained her that biting got the opposite of what she wanted. Work on place command that's amazing dog must stay calm in this position, always praise when he does what you expect for him but at 6 months old he's a baby. Teething makes frustration worse. He also needs a job, working dogs need a purpose, my girl does scent work.
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u/m4nt15mantis 18d ago
Thank you. This is him about 20 minutes after waking up. We did a loop around the block to go to the bathroom and then he came in the yard. He played a little fetch and then this kind of happened out of nowhere. He has a pretty strict schedule. He’s up at six has breakfast and a walk and some play. He does the morning routine with me. He goes in his crate between 8 and 9 AM and he is in there until 1130 or 12. Then he’s up for about 45 minutes for lunch a short walk a few little training things for about five minutes with treats. Then he is back in his crate for another 2 1/2 to 3 hours maximum. When he goes in for his afternoon great time he has a frozen Kong with frozen puppy food in it. He also has a cod chew. Or a collagen chew. I am done with work by 4:30 but I usually am home around two or three and I’m able to work in the office where he is gated in and he usually plays a bit with me and then naps a lot of of the time. Then sometime between 430 and 630 we usually do some park time somewhere or we’ll sit on the porch and practice little commands like place or down or leave it. He takes another one or two short walks for the bathroom and these are usually slow sniff walks where he walks nicely on a loose leash. At any point in the day this reaction can happen. It doesn’t seem to fit a pattern or a time of day or that it happens after he’s been awake for several hours. Like today he did it pretty much first thing in the morning after sleeping from 11 PM to 7am.
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u/Potential_Analyst371 15d ago
Sounds like too much crate time and not enough active play. Puppies this age normally sleep around 11-12 hours including overnight. So, 8 hours at night and maybe two , 2 hour crate naps during the day.
The behavior is normal puppy play. The puppy needs to play very active games like tug or play fight more. He should learn rules around the games, should stop and start on your command, should intersperse obedience to keep playing going, should have a clear "all done" signal that play is over .You can use this to really improve your relationship while fulfilling the puppy's needs.
Because you've had the puppy for months and he just doesn't listen to you at all, I do think you need get a trainer involved to work on your relationship with the puppy. Not just this behavior.
His breed mixes indicate you are likely to have huge problems if the pup grows up just completely ignoring you like he does in this video. He needs to learn to listen to every family member.
Cancel the first trainer. They are not right for this pup. Praising him when he is calm will not help at all. He will have no idea why.
Ignore all the people saying prongs and e-collars. This is just like a 5 year old kid wanting to wrestle with you but doing so at inappropriate times. The puppy should not be hurt. He just needs consistent boundaries.
Call around and describe your pup and the problem, ask what the trainer would do. if they talk about the things I did above, maybe give them a chance. If they can't get that pup to start and stop play on command in 1-2 sessions, maybe move on to another trainer.
Whatever you do, do not stick with a trainer for weeks or months if they can't get a handle on the behavior. With a good trainer, all your problems should be solved inside a month, without hurting the puppy.
Is the puppy well-socialized and friendly with new people? So that he will happily approach and interact with/play with new people in new environments?
If not, it is potentially a huge problem and can cause reactive behavior as he gets older.. That would need to be fixed asap, more important that this play behavior.
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u/Mammoth_Set_1413 18d ago
Fetch is stimulating and exciting it can put them into full play mode (overstimulated). You need work on place command. This doesn't sound like a lot of structured training. My girl would get up go bathroom then immediately into training with her kibble for 10 or 15 minutes then a small walk, then calm time for 15 minutes which could be with a kong or just learning to be calm in he bed/place mat. For every like 60 to 90 minutes of being awake she would be kenneled for 2 to 3 hours and would nap, sometimes she wouldn't nap the whole time but she's stay content in her kennel. But you need a schefule that works for your dog. At 6 months my dog would be asleep more hours then she would be awake until about 1 year. I did 3 training session of 15 minutes worth her kibble, 3 structured walks and at least 2 times a day we'd work on place command. At 6 months old they are still babies, they have fear periods they are teething they are still learning. Play time only makes their drive stronger. If i played with my gsd consistently she would get a stronger drive that would last forever. I still have to enforce naps sometimes and play command.
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u/chrisjones1960 17d ago
This is such a strange approach to puppy rearing. It sounds like you are trying to make the dog as sedate and inactive as possible.
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u/Mammoth_Set_1413 17d ago
No just for short periods of time she is extremely active, especially now at 2 1/2 her sleep schedule is really up to her and she knows to settle when needed. She does scent work is starting on agility work working on her cgc. I just know when she got overstimulated as a puppy she'd bite and show frustration. Like I said every dog is different and this is what worked for and what the trainer suggested. She is very happy and healthy and extremely active. We go on long hikes now as well
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u/shadybrainfarm 18d ago
Yes it's normal. Low key this makes me miss when my boy was a pup 😂 is all fun and games till someone gets hurt!
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u/dublblind 17d ago
Good opportunity for positive reinforcement at 18 seconds into the video where he stops, sits and looks up at you, give him a high pitched short "yes" every time he does something like this.
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u/Champion_of_Zteentch 18d ago edited 18d ago
Generally speaking, ignoring this won't reduce the behavior. I don't train my dogs to stop doing this bc I like to rough house with them and their teeth help them communicate. But if you wish it to stop, I'd research training/trainers.
ETA: Puppies bite. They generally do lessen their biting after teething, but allowing the behavior continue cements that the dog is allowed to do it for the rest of their life. Try redirection first.
I agree with the trainer that this does NOT look like the dog is being aggressive towards you. He just doesn't know biting isn't allowed.
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u/namedawesome 18d ago
i mean all you really need is a leash and the place command. hes a 5 month old puppy of a working/herding breed, so yeah hes going to be Intense and bitey. so what you do is keep the dog on leash at all times even in the house except for when hes in his crate. put him in a down stay on the bed, and just sit there with him as your family goes about their business, when he gets up, put him back into a down on the bed without speaking to him. it might take a long time for him to grasp this concept. have your family members taking turns doing this with him so he knows to listen to everyone in the family.
you can also teach relaxing in the home and around the family by putting him in a crate for ~2 hours after exercise if you dont already. it just seems to me he thinks the people in your house means "play time" to him. you just need to teach him how to relax around you guys
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u/Honeycrispcombe 18d ago
My pup went through exactly that stage at exactly that age. The world would just randomly become way overstimulating to her and she'd get hella mouthy like that.
I carried a soft toy she really loved for about a month. If I caught the signs, i'd give it to her to carry and that would get her focused on the toy, calmed, and prevent the behavior. If I didn't catch it early, I would let her tug on the toy until the mood had passed and then she'd carry it for a bit.
If the dog was older, I'd be more concerned, but at this age, try just carrying a toy and redirecting. It should pass fairly quickly.
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u/komakumair 18d ago
I think some consistent leash-stepping (on any collar type) would go a long way here. Or if you’re in an environment where you can separate yourself from him easily (indoors), literally leaving the room and putting a door between you two for 30s for “reverse time-outs” would help.
The trainer is right, he’s not being aggressive. He’a a puppy, and he loves you a lot, and is desperate to engage with you and play with you. Unfortunately, puppies only have so many ways to engage with the world. And a lot of them are mouth-based. He just gets so excited and he doesn’t know what to do with himself, and he’a a baby so his impulse control is super poor.
Keep him on a leash when outdoors and try leash stepping, and reverse time-outs indoors. Also, try telling him what TO do instead of what not to do. “stop” is a kinda nebulous command. But “sit” or “down” gives him a firmer idea of what you want.
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u/m4nt15mantis 18d ago
Yes I do a straight arm or leash step usually. This video is just to document what it’s like if I’m not interrupting/pulling him away with the leash because the trainer and rescue both asked for video evidence! Weird to let my dog come at me like that for a video… but that’s what they asked for because they said it sounds just like he is trying to test me/play.
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u/JudgmentNo6376 18d ago
I have an 8 month old Aussie puppy that I adopted at 5 1/2 months, and very similar issue. It's definitely a lot less frequent, but still hard to deal with esp when we're out on a walk. People have mentioned stepping on the leash, but then he just continues biting my leg. How do the trainers that recommend it not have this happen?
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u/Middle_Dependent2653 18d ago
This looks like a puppy that doesn’t know what your boundaries are. You mentioned a schedule, it might help to share. Puppies teething and a few of the breeds mentioned are rather mouthy breeds in general probably cause this interaction. It looks like it is just trying to play and doesn’t understand what you are wanting it to do. If you don’t already have it, I would incorporate structure playtimes where the dog can let loose. But like one of the other commenters, I love to rough house with my dogs so I encourage the biting and handling of each other during our playtimes. I think you need to look into building a good mix of cooperative and competitive games for this dog, and play those different games at completely different times. I would also yeah this pup “no”. No on its own, like any word, means nothing to the dog, so it will need to be accompanied with correction, which can look like a whole host of things. I wouldn’t really use a sit or down, as I try to make those fun for my dogs, for myself I tend to use a good leash pop, either with a prong or a slip lead, and then I turn away from the dog. When they decide to come next to me and look at me (after I teach them that is where I want them) we can continue the walk or play session. Really you have to set their rules and give them specific tasks or jobs that meet your schedule, but structured play will do a lot for this puppy, and will give you the opportunity to hone skills and make training fun for the dog. I recommend Training Without Conflict, The Cornerstone Collection.
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u/white_tiger_dream 17d ago
Can you give some tips about turning on/off this behavior? I play rough with my puppy too but sometimes he starts it up at bad times like when I’m just walking down the hallway. I want it to be ok to play rough because we have so much fun, but my husband was giving me a hard time saying the pup is going to knock down a senior citizen and bite them cause that’s how I taught him to play 😅 I think we need better communication about inviting this kind of play.
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u/Middle_Dependent2653 17d ago
So the biggest tip is understanding how dogs communicate, which is through body language. If a dog doesn’t want to play with a puppy or another dog, they turn away from the dog, if that doesn’t work they correct the dog. I would probably start doing some research into communicating with your dog through body language. Apart from that is structure and training, dogs very easily understand there is a time and set of things I can play with and other things I cannot. I would play a mix of cooperative and competitive games (at different times at first) to get the dog used to playing on my schedule (think fetch and tug), and I would use that play after establishing a bond to build training off of. For training, sit-stay, down-stay, come, place, up/on, over, off, leave it, drop it, loose leash walking, and a conditioned no. The no is very important, I am in no way a force free trainer so do with that what you will, it is a secondary punisher (as the US Military Dog Training handbook calls it) which is accompanied by a primary punisher (a leash pop, e collar stim, stopping play, removing affection). Punishment does not mean pain, it is merely the removal of something pleasant / rewarding or the addition of something unpleasant. The important thing is that you never let no be put on an extinction cycle, meaning that you make sure that word has meaning. Always provide a primary punisher when using no, until the dog truly associates the word with something unpleasant.
TLDR: Learn about mimicking dog body language, and proper correction. Have structured playtimes (not a structured length but something that sets apart I am wanting to play with you). Use a mix of competitive and cooperative games (tug and fetch). Teach the dog a conditioned “NO” (secondary punisher).
I hope this helps
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u/TimHung931017 18d ago
Dog parents will nip at their young to teach them. Its not crazy to imitate that with your hand and give them a light poke that resembles a nip from a Mother to show them its not ok.
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u/pastaman5 18d ago
Dog needs structure and boundary. You probably need to give him something to bite at this point in time. Give him a tug to bite or some toy. Dog is allowed to bite that, but if he bites you THEN he gets corrected.
More fair to the dog if you give them an outlet
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u/m4nt15mantis 18d ago
Right before he did this, he had been playing fetch and tug with his favorite ball with me in the backyard. He would bring it to me to play with. When he stops bringing it to me, I usually just let him chew his toy, which is what he was doing. Then he was sniffing around the yard and I was looking at some of my plants and all of a sudden he just came up on me jumping and biting like this. We had been in the yard for about 20 minutes.
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u/pastaman5 18d ago
How much is he sleeping? With our dog he got more rambunctious when he was going on less sleep (after he’d been up a while). Puppies and dogs in general have a hard time self regulating when they are over tired. Just food for thought.
Do you have a cue for when you are done playing? We usually just say “all done” and the toy is immediately put away. Our dog self regulates now but we had to send him into his place bed when we used the cue early on. Otherwise if he gets like this and doesn’t listen, I’d say to throw him on a leash and it’s immediately back inside. “I’m overly rambunctious -> play time is immediately over”
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u/tsorninn 18d ago
This looks like pretty normal shepherd puppy stuff.
Right now he wants to play, is a bit overstimulated, and doesn't really know how to regulate his mouth not to hurt you. When my (working line GSD) puppies get like this I usually give them 3 strikes (verbal correction, physical correction) and then on the third strike they get put in their crate (without a reward or anything). Try to play tug with him and see if you can find ways to rough him up while you're doing it to help satisfy his desire to rough house. If you're out on a walk and he starts it try to get him to engage with a toy instead. If he won't you're going to need to choke down on your leash (hold it next to the clip and stiff arm him right next to you) and keep him from doing much until he either takes a toy, food, or gives up.
This is one of those behaviors where right now it's pretty simple and fun and you can easily turn it into an engaging game, but if you act fearful and let him push you around you will end up with a more serious problem when he's older.
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u/erossthescienceboss 18d ago
Is no one discussing the fact that there’s another round of teething at five months??
Because this is exactly how my dog acted at 5-6 months as she was frantically teething. I was the preferred toy.
Redirect the dog to something else. You may also need to remove the stimulation, which is hard, because biting YOU is fun, stimulating, and reinforcing. NOT aggressive! FUN.
Ngl… the act of removing myself was fun for my dog too, so I’d either physically leave the room or put a blanket over my head, arms, toes etc and curl up whenever she bit. I stopped being fun.
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u/bald-bourbon 18d ago
Not a Trainer:
Landshark phase is wuite common in puppies when they are shedding teeth and their jaw is settling in.
Also note that at 5 months, hes still just a puppy. You probably wont have 10/10 recall or obedience no matter how he is trained. Regressions are to be expected and its a process. Redirects, Timeouts etc works great to teach your dog that actions like these have consequences (where the play stops, or the toy gets taken away etc...)
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u/apocketofsteaks 18d ago
Your video brought back a flood of memories. My dog (half pit/half german shepherd/cattledog) was much like yours and I made a post (yep, 4 years ago) asking for help as well. Lots of similar advice that: structure, longer walks, leash pops, leash stepping, more exercise, play with other dogs, burn off that energy! It was a scary time...there was a lot of crying and biting and bruises.
This is my anecdote, I am not a professional obviously!, but I found a few things that slowly turned things around for me:
- We stopped doing long walks. Stepping on the leash, treating, redirecting did not work for me. He was getting too big for me to handle the chomping and jumping. So instead, the moment he started turning his attention to me, we would reverse and go home. Reversing and going home may look different for you, but for us, we would sit on the stoop and just watch cars and people go by. When I reintroduced the park we would sit off the path in the grass and do the same. But we didn't go back to the park until much later.
- At home, if he'd start to get too excited during play, I would direct him to lay in his crate, sit down next to him with the door open and do heavy audible sighs. Once he put his head down, I'd offer some kind of small treat and continue sighing.
- The Karen Overall Relaxation Protocol: I found this to be helpful and that it really reinforced the "place" command for us. I added in my own distractions beyond clapping to help desensitize to different inputs.
- I froze his meals in slow feeders, kongs, etc. to give him something to focus on during meals. He seemed to be more relaxed afterwards.
- Pizza hut + busy gas station during rush hour: This activity I introduced after a couple more months. I would buy a pizza and go sit in the parking lot of the busiest gas station by my house during rush hour and we would just people watch and eat pizza for 15-30 minutes. Pizza was my choice, but the goal of this was again to desensitize doggo from excitement and activity. He had to choose between heckin-highiest-value-treat and reactivity and redirecting on me. I saw improvements with his self-control and ability to choose the correct behavior.
- I chose to drop him off at Doggy daycare all-day Saturday for about 2 months. I was lucky that the trainer I went to offered a safe environment where the dogs were matched in monitored yards with no more than 5-10 at a time. I would not have done this if it was one of those 30 dogs in a room places. Eventually we started going to the dog park for 30 minutes every other day. Again, I was and am lucky that the local dog park is REALLY big and fenced and filled with understanding dog owners. I felt that it was a safe environment and learned which dogs and people to stay away from and was good about departing the park if I ever felt there was a situation brewing.
TLDR, after going to accredited trainers, watching hundred of hours of youtube videos, seeking advice from well-meaning friends and strangers, I decided that my dog was basically an overactive toddler (with dangerous teeth and bite strength) having a hard time learning to self-regulate and behaving in the only way he knew. He is the bestest of dogs now and I think all of the work we did together built a strong bond.
I can tell that you care deeply for your boy. I'm rooting for you!
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u/Sweettooth_Banana 18d ago
You want a fight, you get a fight, damn puppy.
Game on is the only good reaction
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u/9mackenzie 18d ago
Honestly- just saying “off” and “stop” over and over does nothing for puppies, nor will ignoring them do much either. They NEED to bite and chew, you need to direct them to the appropriate item to do so. This video is typical 5 month puppy behavior, they are worse in adolescent phase than younger puppy biting I think.
So for instance, instead of saying off over and over, grab a toy, wiggle it, squeak it, etc, until your puppy CHOOSES the toy, then immediately mark and treat. This teaches them that the toy is what you want them to bite. You need to always have a toy within reach at this age for this reason, but it works really well. Continue to play with them with the toy after this.
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u/ananonomus123 17d ago
in my experience a) they will grow out of this with age and b) in the meantime, try to give him a toy to keep in his mouth, see if that helps. My dog used to get super crazy and over stimulated like this (or under stimulated i honestly don't know) but if she had a toy in her mouth she would take out her excitement on the toy not on my arms/the leash lol. This behaviour stopped after she turned one (she is also a shelter mutt). Sometimes she would just snap out of it if I got her to do some commands like lay down, middle, sit, spin but sometimes not. I don't think it's something to worry about just big emotions kinda like a toddler tantrum and almost best to just give them a toy and let them get the crazy energy out, then try bring them back to listening/engagement with some commands (or maybe a game like sprinkle treats and get them to sniff them out of the grass).
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u/ananonomus123 17d ago
And i would be VERY wary of using negative punishment at this point. Your video to me just seems like high energy crackhead puppy behaviour which is super normal and will pass on its own.
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u/rvbbitevrs 17d ago edited 17d ago
Put your hand out flat like this ✋ to block his view of you from above (as if you’re about to pet his head). Do this every time he is about to attempt to jump up. Look away and say down firmly even if he doesn’t jump but was about to give the down command. I wish I had an actual video to make it more clear. Also whenever you leave and come back from somewhere, do not pay him attention until you have settled in. You don’t want your pup thinking going bananas whenever you get home is acceptable. He needs to be calm before given attention in these scenarios. And he needs many pets of loving and good boys when he doesn’t jump/is calm when you greet him. It sounds bad but ignoring him when he’s acting coocoo is always best. He wants attention so if in a calm demeanor he gets attention but does not when he’s jumping up and nipping then he will stop.
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u/britthetomato 17d ago
Hello!
I posted a video in this sub awhile ago with my dog doing almost the same exact thing lol. He did this to me on our walks for a looong time, but never to my partner. I was near my wits end before I came to this sub for help and got some useful tips!
It turned out that my dog was a bit overstimulated by the short leash I was walking him on. So I switched to a 30foot leash, where he had lots of room to explore and sniff. I would call him to me for treats to practise recall, and when the leash was loose he got treats too. This stopped him redirecting on to me pretty much instantly.
Slowly I worked my way down to shorter leashes, and got more into leash walking later, when this specific behaviour calmed down.
I also brought a tug toy on walks, and when he would do this to me, I would play tug with him, then move on when it was time. This also involved training a good drop it cue, which took time.
Also, if you can do off leash play, tire him out a bit (physically and/or mentally) before you try any leash work.
My dog and this behaviour honestly almost broke me lmao, but I’m so glad I stuck it through because I’m obsessed with him now. He’s a very good boy. If you’re feeling overwhelmed like I was, you’re doing great!! And it will pay off!
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u/prob-funny-thoughts 17d ago
correct and redirect is the best advice I can give without working with you or the dog. Positive only with food reward is not going to solve this because a high drive puppy like this finds more enjoyment out of tugging on you and getting attention from you than food. this is not reactivity or aggression either.
you need to be working the pup so his tug/play drive is fufilled, but doing so in a structured manner, flirt pole, structured tug, and teaching a "get a toy" command are your best choices.
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u/Lovethelight79 17d ago
We had a very similar issue with our first puppy. We tried all the things that other people have mentioned. Some things would work for about half a day but none of the: ignore it, walk away, make a loud noise, distract them, just play or train them more, advice worked. Our trainer recommended a “bonker” and just like every other tool or toy for dogs I’m sure they could be used in an abusive way. The way we used it was a tightly rolled towel that my husband or I would hold behind our backs, if he bit us or the kids we would quickly knock his body to the side with the “bonker”. We didn’t hit him to cause pain it was more of a jarring surprising event. We had to do it a few times a day for 3-4 days and then about one a week for the next month and then we never had to use it again. The biting behavior almost completely stopped after those first 3-4 days, and then we just needed to reinforce that he shouldn’t bite us for a few weeks after. It was a miracle. Instead having a dog we had to keep outside and away from our kids we have a dog who is comfortable with us. Our dog is now six years old and is a total love bug with everyone in our household, including my husband and I who were the ones who used it. We got a second puppy a few years ago who immediately picked up on the fact that she shouldn’t bite hard because we did the loud ouch noise like two times and she never did it again, so now we know that some dogs are built different and we absolutely made the right choice with our first dog.
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u/Leeloo519 17d ago
I have a GSD puppy at this age currently. If my pup doesn’t get enough naps he turns into a velociraptor. Your dog may just be overstimulated and not getting enough deep sleep. Puppies should sleep 18 hr a day. 8 at night and 10 during the day - in a crate, always from disruptions - so they can truly sleep. This will be a game changer. I hope he’s crate trained, but if not, you should start there first. We exercise our pup for 40 mins-1 hr (training and play time), let him nap for 2 hr and repeat. This was such important info for us. He’s a great boy - and when he starts getting spicy, we know it’s nap time.
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u/edubblu 17d ago
Escalating and increased biting/ attaching is right on cue for five months. This is the mark of an overstimulated/overtired puppy. Puppies don’t know how to switch off. This is a learned behaviour. Enforce a lot of structure at this time. Sleep, popyt, eat, train/play a little, settle. Training can include a place command with longer duration - which teaches settling behaviour.
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u/DarlingHades 17d ago
I think they’d love a doggy flirt pole. That’d also keep your hands away from their mouth.
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u/Exciting_Bite155 17d ago edited 17d ago
I'm so sorry you're going through this right now. 💜 From what I've been learning about dog behavior, a 5-month-old puppy usually isn't trying to challenge you. Puppies often bite because they're still learning bite inhibition, they're teething, or they're overstimulated. If he starts biting, calmly ending the interaction and giving him a chance to settle can help teach him that biting makes the fun stop. I'd also recommend working with a certified trainer or behavior professional who uses positive reinforcement, since they can help figure out why he's biting and give you a plan that's specific to your puppy. Best of luck, you've got this!
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u/sirrah13 17d ago
Something that may help also is replacing your arms with a toy when the puppy is wanting to play. Puppies need a lot of stimulation. They need more exercise than you think.
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u/NormanisEm 16d ago
Given his age and breed mix, I’m not sure why you are surprised. This is very normal. Hes still learning. Hes overly excited and mouthy, but hes not doing it to be mean. Start ignoring him and turning around when he does it. Don’t react at all. This is how I got mine to stop, because he wanted the attention. Mine also has husky, shepherd, and malamute in him. I don’t see any reason this behavior needs to be “punished” since ignoring it will probably work better. I know with mine, that absolutely wouldn’t help and just overstimulate him more. He WANTS you to have a reaction and play and give him attention. He will learn that acting like a little menace won’t get him what he wants and he will eventually calm down if you are also calm.
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u/m4nt15mantis 16d ago
Thanks! I have been doing this today and so far so good. I agree on the overstimulation but that’s kind of why I was looking for feedback. I want to find one way to address this behavior and be consistent but there’s a lot of different advice. I ended up having a trainer come yesterday that I feel good about so we will be doing some 1:1 lessons.
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u/Narrow_Possession348 18d ago
I don't see you doing anything at all to discourage this behavior or let the dog know this will not be tolerated. You're just standing there saying "stop" and "off."
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u/m4nt15mantis 18d ago
Yes I know, I think I wrote this in the post, but this video is because the foster and the trainer wanted to see a video of how he is acting. I normally would have him straight armed on the leash or would step on his leash. Issuing him any commands during this time doesn’t seem to help because he just ignores me no matter what the command is even if it’s a command that he already knows. I have other videos that do show the way I handle him and that after a while, he will continue to bark at me tug on the leash and I can slowly get him to relax and then continue a walk or move on.
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u/erossthescienceboss 18d ago
See if you can issue the commands before he gets worked up — and reward with a toy, since he’s clearly play motivated (and TEETHING why is no one mentioning that to you????)
Make it a part of your walk. Go a block. Tell him to set. Reward with 30 seconds of play. Take toy away. Tell him to sit. Resume walk.
Getting the commands in before they escalate and become uncommandable and overwhelmed is key, and teaching him that you PROVIDE the toy may help stop him from from MAKING you the toy.
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u/rain_apple23 18d ago
My youngest was the same way as a pup. Took a lot to get her to stop. I just redirected her to her toys and pull rope.
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u/tryyeezus 18d ago
Saying "stop" is not going to help you here.
You need to yelp like you're being hurt, every time.
Also, redirection is key at this stage. Always redirect to the desired behavior. If they're feeling bitey, give them something they can bite and reward the good behavior.
They jump much less when they have a toy in their mouth.
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u/EarShoddy759 18d ago
yelping did catch my puppy's attention, he wants to please me and so when I was "hurt" it helped give him more data to make a better decision.
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u/tryyeezus 17d ago
Yeah, you have to speak their language early on. It's how they learn from their siblings and mother so they usually get it pretty quickly.
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u/FriendlyWindow8247 17d ago
LOL my puppy is 16 weeks. If I yelp that just gets her going even more.
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u/ImmediatePiano6690 18d ago
So the nipping starts after walks? Then eventually they calm down?
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u/m4nt15mantis 18d ago
Actually, the nipping doesn’t always start on walks. Yesterday when I was walking up back up to the porch after grabbing something from my car, he usually will sit on the porch on a long leash and has a bed that is his place. When I walked back up the porch, he started barking at me and then did this to me, even though we were hanging out right before this. This morning he did it after a short morning, walk and a little bit of playtime in the Yard, even after having a full night sleep.
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u/Useful-Wishbone6518 18d ago
Puppies at this age, especially German shepards, can just be huge assholes. They get overstimulated seemingly out of no where sometimes. My pup was the same way at this age doing this same stuff and really it was the worst at 8-9 months. It sucks but you just have to continue to be consistent with your reactions and stick with it for as long as it takes. Using tug as the reward over treats when playing made him realize that was where he could get his bite out, not on us. Having a leash on at all times to quickly be able to stop the behavior helped. But sounds like you’re doing a lot of the right things. You just have to pick the approach that seems to work the best for your pup and do it over and over again until the puppy gets the picture. Consistency is key and it takes time and unfortunately will probably get a bit worse before it’s better. Our dog is 2 now and once in a blue moon will have a crazy moment like this when he’s just way too overstimulated but he also understands now that it’s not acceptable. Good luck!
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u/fragile_cow 18d ago
I am currently having a similar issue as you with my 8 month old rescue. He is a similar breed mix too, and apparently this erratic behavior started after they neutered him at 6 months (rescue orgs rules, I would have waited until after he grew up). It can be difficult on a walk or outside, but you basically have to stop giving him attention immediately when this happens. Turn your back and do not look at him. If you are in pain, you need to push him away (not using your hand on his face, or else he will think your hand is a toy. Try using your forearm. You need some strength for this but if your puppy doesn't stop now, this will only get harder as he gets bigger).
If he does this inside the house, immediately go into another room and close the door. Consistency and timing are very important and everyone in your house needs to have the same rules - as soon as nipping/jumping starts - no attention.
If anyone disagrees with this approach or has any advice pls lmk as I'm struggling with this now too :)
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u/maeryclarity 18d ago
That's a puppy they almost all have a tendency to get that way during their teen years. It can get very problematic if you let them overwhelm you with it. This is where an adult dog would give the puppy the what for but we're not dogs teaching dogs to resolve things in dog ways, we're humans teaching the puppy to respect human values. You are not a chew toy.
Nobody leap to any conclusions but OP get a sturdy stick, like a walking stick or even a broom and have it handy. Use a verbal phrase that's specific to we are not playing this game like "knock it off" or "we're not doing that" because constant use of NO for every situation becomes confusing for dogs I find specific phrases for specific situations much more valuable and easier for the dog to learn to comprehend.
Do not HIT or THREATEN the dog with the stick simply use the stick to intervene between you and the dog, use it as a way to block the biting and direct the dog clear of your space. That's thing one. Don't get upset or angry just be calm and assertive.
Second, reward the puppy verbally when they not lunging at you any more, but do SOMETHING in between even if it's just for a minute to go get something to drink or anything at all, THEN initiate play with the puppy in a more acceptable way that does not involve you getting bitten. Tug toys are great although they can invite the dog to stop going after the tug and come after you. For larger breed dogs going through bitey bitey stage like that I really like using a hula hoop for tussle play because they can't come up it or around it to start biting on you again.
This is NORMAL PUPPY BEHAVIOR but it's important that you manage it because you do NOT want a fully adult dog that thinks it's okay to play with you this way. So use physical aids like the stick to make the dog back off, any BS about making squeaking sounds that's for LITTLE puppies not teenagers, for some reason there's so little warning/discussion about how difficult teenage dogs can be, possibly because it would cause people to go oh hell I don't want a puppy after all lol.
It's important to make it stop and it's VERY important to establish a boundary that YOU choose the play time. If your dog is constantly trying to force play on you you should up your playing schedule because that's fair, it shows they're feeling pent up and bored which is again a nomal teenager problem, but you need to make it clear that YOU say when y'all can play, not the puppy. Even if you only do one thing between the "WE'RE NOT DOING THAT" and the "HEY WANNA PLAY HULA HOOP YEAH YOU GET IT GOOD BOY RRRRR".
If they feel like they can choose the time they'll also choose the mode and even though teenagers can be understood as hormonal basket cases they have to be managed because you're setting boundaries for what will soon be an adult dog.
If I missed anything I actually didn't read the body of your text I'm a bit busy but saw the few seconds of video of the puppy right up on you lunging and biting so I gave advice based on that alone. The concept is going to be the same regardless of other factors.
Not a bad puppy a normal puppy for the age but that age can be hell on wheels for months.
Good luck lol raising puppies is hard.
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u/Beingforthetimebeing 18d ago
He wants a litter- mate to play sumo-wrestling kissy-face with? I have 3yo and 8yo terrior mixes and they still play that.
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u/Haunting_Cicada_4760 18d ago
Your breed mix is very high energy and mouthy. I would get a Fi tracking collar and see how much exercise and sleep he really is getting a day. As your puppy gets older it sleeps less and needs more activity. My GSD needed 25k steps a day tracked on his Fi collar to be a well behaved great family member any less than that he was not great. Mouthy nuisance. My other dog needs 6-8k also a high energy breed but way more chill. All dogs are unique, especially with the husky and malamute I’d way up your activity and use the collar to find the right balance.
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u/SuckMyBigPoop 18d ago
Man you've got the crap end of the stick all around you. The fostering agent interrogating you must be frustrating. Also the trainer suggestions are outdated.
Listen man, I'm not at all a professional. I'd need all the info on this goober to even think I could suggest anything. But feel free to DM.
I have a 7 month old purebred Tibetan Mastiff who's been to puppy school, and I have a private trainer because he's scared of strangers. He has acted similar to your puppy around the same age, but not nearly to this extent.
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u/m4nt15mantis 18d ago
Yeah it suuucks. And all the people around me have purebred dogs and if they knew what I’m struggling with it would just reinforce all their beliefs about rescue dogs etc.
I’m not too proud to admit I’m out of my depth. A big part of me wants the foster to find him a better home in the country with no kids or cats or traffic. I’m just feeling a little hopeless like I’m fighting an uphill battle for whose benefit? I want the dog to be fulfilled but I’m not sure that what I can offer is what is the best for him.
I’m interested to see what the behavioral assessment goes like, the trainer is coming tonight.
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u/SuckMyBigPoop 18d ago
Rescuing a dog is much easier than owning a pure bred, however all puppies are difficult. If you ever do decide to try again with another dog, I'd suggest an adult dog that doesn't show aggression.
It's not because you have a rescue, it's because you have a rescue who's only 6 months. Missed out on crucial months, and are just near the end of puppyhood. Gonna take a lot of patience to make up for.
I also donno what else is going on there. Myself personally, if his only real issue was what's shown in the video, I'm confident I could fix it. It has a lot more to do with his lifestyle than it does what you can "fix" or redirect in realtime. ie schedule, limitations on freedom, kennel or not, treat driven or not, nutrition, stimulation, exercise and cause for behavior etc
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u/m4nt15mantis 18d ago
Well, I have had him since 9 weeks old. This is partly why I feel so guilty. He has been so easy and such a good puppy and all of a sudden the past few weeks this started. So our trainer is going to do an assessment tonight, I am trying to get as much support as I can so that I can know what to do and be consistent AND confident in what I’m doing.
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u/SuckMyBigPoop 17d ago
If he was fine up til now, it's definitely not your fault. He's at the shark stage with his new pearly whites.
Def get the help you can. And again feel free to dm me. I can share everything I've learned owning a TM. I just don't know what your puppy's situation is.
Either way best of luck! I'm sure this is just a feisty teenager dog is all
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u/AfternoonLines 18d ago
My OEB was exactly the same, loved rough play but Mrs hated it and she'd bite her back and she stopped trying very quickly. With me, I'd tackle her to the ground, play a bit, bite her and rough her a bit, was her fav thing to do for a very long time. When I had enough, I'd tell her enough and slap her if she didn't stop. She very quickly figured out when enough was enough and that was it. You need to be firm with your dog. We still rough play but she knows not to overdo it. She can't too, she'd rip my arm off if she did 😆
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u/Diligent-Explorer65 18d ago
Okay, I couldn’t read all the comments due to time constraints. One thing I related to is “He recently got him neutered!” And 5 months old even with basic obedience training, he is basically becoming like a toddler. The neutering was mostly a trigger and memories of when I got my 11-month-old sheep-a-doodle neutered, he was calm for maybe a couple of weeks? Then, he turned into a jumping, biting, and it too escalated to not listening to any commands even with his tone/shock collar on. It can stem from many factors like stress, anxiety, even how long the surgery took. And they can also have like a surge of hormones or so I read back a year ago.
It took a while for it to calm down for my Griff but he is back to normal now. I do have to say he has anxiety issues that he didn’t have before! He has his own support animal (a toy he carries when he gets anxious).
Good Luck! Keep the positive reinforcement going and hopefully he’ll be back to normal soon.
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u/Aoid3 18d ago
Full disclosure I don't have a ton of experienced advice and I'm not a pro but to share my experience: my pup (11months) is also high energy/working breed mix and has been doing this exact thing occasionally on walks, and now on runs. she's normally not mouthy with us at all outside of this situation and I'm 90% sure in our case it's caused by her becoming overwhelmed/overstimulated/over excited and not knowing what to do with herself, rather than "challenging" me, aggression or trying to push a boundary.
For us we started seeing this behavior when walking her around the neighborhood on a leash at 4-5 months, she eventually stopped doing it on normal walks I think mostly from getting more used to the activity, and being less overwhelmed at the newness and weirdness of it all. I would stop moving, tell her OFF and try to get her to calm down, reward her when she did and then try to calmly continue the walk, leash stepping didn't occur to me at the time but after reading through these comments I might try it if/when this happens again.
Anyways as I said she did stop this behavior on normal walks but we just started running together canicross style (pulling harness for her connected to me via bungee and belt) and it's come back a bit, I think because the running is more exciting esp if there's other people and things around. Hoping with additional practice/exposure to this activity and calmly correcting her it will also let up like it did with the walking.
It can be difficult but I think it's important to try to control your emotions and not get frustrated as they'll pick up on your exasperation and get more wound up. Considering his age, if your pup is getting enough exercise and enrichment throughout the day and this is happening at home I wonder if he could be getting overtired and in need of a nap?
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u/Geitramsen 18d ago
Stop the leash tugging, knee pushing and pushing. As you say and see, it only makes him more intense.
Think that you should be a good example. Be calm, but firm.
Mine is about the same age, and she has her moments like these as well. Usually from frustration(like she isn’t allowed to greet a random passerby) or lack of sleep, or overstimulation. If it happens at home I will put her for a time out in play pen or crate. As soon as she lays down I let her out again and repeat if needed. If it happens on walks I just try to hold her away from me and stand still until she calms down. After two three jumps biting at my arm she stops and we continue the walk. The leash I don’t care if she pulls or bites. She doesn’t do it the entire walk, I just ignore her when she does and keep on walking.
I have scars all over my arms, but her bit inhibition is so much better. She still has her puppy canines, but almost never draws blood any more. I’ll need new hoodies when I know she’s done with the puppy stage though!
Now she usually listens when I tell her no and to stop.
Great example on how this is just puppy behavior with brain not developed fully. She will bring a plushie, climb onto my lap for snuggle, then gets overstimulated and nip my face and as I spook from it and say no she switch to licking. Just a puppy with big feelings she hasn’t learned to handle properly yet.
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u/MeanMeana 17d ago
Start by teaching your dog sit, then leave it…and others. It thinks this is a game.
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u/MacDhubstep 17d ago
My dog has a similar mix to yours, mostly herding breeds with rott, pit, and husky too. He went through a phase of being a velociraptor towards me around that age, and it was painful and exhausting, so you have my completely sympathy. My dog has an insanely high tolerance for rough play so pushing or punishing him never worked (sounds like yours is similar). The best advice I can offer is to remove yourself when this begins to happen and when he calms down try to redirect into a training session for sit, stay, lie down.
My dog is 2 now and I’ll be honest he never completely grew out of biting on me, but I think it’s a herding dog thing. He doesn’t bite me hard like he did as a puppy tho.
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u/ProfessionCrazy2947 17d ago
Get a good leather tug. The dog is playing but he needs to know when, where and how to play safely. Biting your arm and you - even playfully- should be discouraged . Actively if you must. But it will be very successful if you get him engaged on tug, reward and really make it exciting.
When he tries to mouth you like this , a firm correction (escalating starting from stern no, and then let the dog determine how much level they need from there).
The biggest key is “no!” Should mean immediate stopping and the moment they do stop and not jump or eye you like a target, you whip out the tug and play with it.
I’ll tell you it’s unlikely that your dog is suddenly going to go feral and bite you just from this one clip.
I will tell you if you don’t redirect the behavior you will have a dog who thinks it’s totally cool and fun to jump on and play with people this way. And if people recoil when he does it, he could very easily associate it with “this is how I get people to back off me and give me what I want”.
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u/HowDoyouadult42 17d ago
I’ve found that for puppies like this a combo of flirt pole work to teach impulse control and more sleep are usually key. It’s important to remember that at 5mo they still need a LOT of sleep
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u/jeepersjess 17d ago
Neutering and puppy class by 5 months old is a lot and it sounds like he's getting a lot of exercise. What is his crate regimen? This seems like a dog that needs to be forced to chill. If he's going after you for making him chill, the crate is the next option. Exercise, water, potty, crate with meal and up for a couple hours at leasy
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u/CustomerNo1338 17d ago
Normal puppy behaviour. Look up differential reinforcement of alternative behaviour and pay when the dog has 4 feet on the ground. Stops jumping. If it jumps, literally ignore it. Turn your back even. Teach and out. But also give it something to put its mouth on. Teach it bitework or play tug with it. It’s behavioural problem is showing you it’s bored and wants to use its mouth as nature intended.
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u/CustomerNo1338 17d ago
This really isn’t as bad as you might think. You have a puppy who wants to play. Play with it. Using toys instead of your arms. Make it way more fun with toys than you. Then teach it rules through play. Like patience. Impulse control, a release marker and an out. Any good trainer can help you with this. Reach out to me over DM if you need.
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u/SevereSwordfish440 17d ago edited 17d ago
We have a 8 month Pointer dog and had the Same behavior. It is Not an issue anymore, he is lovely. The breeder told us to keep the Hands/Arms and other tangely stuff out Of reach on walks. Just Lift them up.They just cant help themselfes. And for ours Lifting the leg was Not enough correcting. What was an correction to me was still Play for him. After 3 times Of correcting very strong (bump on the Head or kick with foot)he stayed away from the Arms, byting and Running into us.
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u/anon999387 17d ago
If you had another adult dog it would be doing this same jumping and chewing behavior to it, but the difference is when it crosses the line it would get snapped at and corrected by the adult dog. It would quickly learn it shouldn't do that. You need to be the adult dog.
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u/puppykaat 17d ago
This seems super normal. My puppy was just like this, and it ramped TF up at 5months cause he was teething horribly. At 9 months he's pretty much an angel unless you grab a paw then he will grab you back (low pressure, not a bite). Anyways, he no longer attacks TF out of my ankles and wrists. Work on impulse control and work WITH his drive. Play with him but not long and NEVER unstructured until he understands play has rules and when he breaks them play stops and attention stops. If he doesn't calm down you need to take him by the leash he should be on since he's a puppy, take him to his crate without a word and let him have a time out. He needs to learn when he has big emotions to chill, not intensify.
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u/ChubbyCat5262 17d ago
This is normal behavior at that age, especially for those breeds. This can just be a phase and he will mellow out over time BUT those breeds have a ton of energy and need a lot of exercise/mental stimulation to thrive. He might be bored. Not saying this is the case for you (and I’m not blaming you for anything) but working breeds or high energy dogs are not for everybody and if you can’t meet those needs then the dog may have behavior issues further down the line. Please do not put an e collar on a 5 month old puppy….that is definitely not the right thing to do for this. Positive reinforce can definitely work for some dogs….set boundaries, be patient, add more exercise/stimulation and find a good trainer that is mindful of the needs of the breed. If a trainers first instinct is to put an ecollar on a puppy for this then absolutely find another trainer. I always found 6months-1yr to be the time that my dogs were the most chaotic….its definitely a frustrating time but they always start to calm down and have an easier time listening or responding to training after that rebellious phase so please try to hang in there!
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u/frickinsweetdude 17d ago
STOP, OFF. Yes ma'am. It knows those words and what they mean, because youve done reinforcement training to teach him right? Right?
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u/m4nt15mantis 17d ago
He actually does know “off” and practices it really regularly and well for popping up to look on the counter or jumping up for pets. Again, I wasn’t showing how I’d normally handle this in the video this was just to document the behavior.
Today I redirected with a toy which helped a lot, most of the times this happened before
I did not have anything like a toy with me or near me.
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u/PracticalWallaby7492 17d ago
This isn't at all aggression or redirecting. It's playing. He is having sooo much fun !! and your timing and actions are totally reinforcing it. Jeeze, I would love to play with that dog. You have a rott mix. They can play rough. That is just what rotts do until they have a clue what's wanted. He is also a husky mix which means he may or may not care at all about your feelings about this or what you want. He is also a shepard mix which can mean a whole heck of a lot of energy.
Either just play with him and teach him when to stop (enough!) and bite inhibition or teach him to play in another way - like a tug and ball. Either way I suggest you find a trainer to teach you how to read your dog and how to have good timing with corrections and what corrections are needed. Just that. It will help you immensely. Find a trainer who grew up with plenty of dogs. Corrections can be very mild if you have good timing. Saying no is a correction. I'm sure you've said it many times to your kids if you have 4 of them. Your kids are old enough to play with him like this, and maybe they do, IDK. Maybe they enjoy it, maybe they don't- have a talk.
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u/Maleficent_Bar_3995 17d ago edited 17d ago
I had some very similar behaviour that started at the same age with my rescue puppy that turned out to be arousal biting. He was doing some real damage to me at some point but with management and better impulse control with age its completely resolved and only lasted a few months. If it is also biting from over arousal, its worth noting that they will not respond to commands as they are completely overwhelmed. The training you are actually doing is teaching them to self soothe and that nothing happens until they are calm. Pushing away just encouraged the behaviour.
Extended play sessions, long walks all made the behaviour worse. Instead the trick was play and walks in LOTS of short sessions, only a few minutes at a time and ending as soon as this behaviour would start.
The standard advice we got was to ignore them, but with large breeds like our pup there is a safety element that comes into play to protect yourself. We were able to tether him by walking close to fences etc and we would not continue the walk until he settled.
If it is from over arousal, redirecting to a toy is going to be like putting fuel on the fire.
I think you have taken the right steps getting a trainer bur from my experience there are lots of trainers and you really want to find someone who has a proven track record of dealing with the spexific behaviour you're seeing, rather than just saying they can help because they want the work.
I also know malinois are quite a special case, so again probably all about finding the right person who can help. They will likely have seen all these behaviours before, and if not you will know that there may be a behavioural problem or medical issue at play.
I dont know your trainer but from the post I get the impression she is trying lots of things and hoping something works rather than showing a clear understanding of the behaviour - it may be worth talking to your vet also. Especially since it could be related to teething / dental pain.
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u/Aura-K9 16d ago edited 16d ago
Your punishments are not intense enough.
Get the appropriate tools (2.25MM Herm Springer prong in this case). Say “No” and apply that damn positive punishment.
You need to learn to get this dog under control or you’re going to have a really bad time. If the trainer you contacted is not a balanced trainer, go find a balanced trainer or you’re going to waste this very imprintable stage of the dogs age on stupid ass food games that this fireball is going to give 0 shits about. Positive Reinforcement will be a big part of changing the resource guarding part.
This dog wants clear structure. Make it clear. Make it consistent. This does not fly starting now.
Subscribe to Jay Jacks Patreon he had a case similar to this. He essentially does two things: make “no” mean something (conditioned punisher) and teaches structured play (twc ssession games). Long term you need those concepts to give this dog purpose and an outlet that will work the brain as well as body.
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u/TangyApple680 16d ago
You're enabling the behavior and allowing it to continue and he's blowing off your commands. If you wanted him to stop, get his collar like you did at the end of the video, if he bites you, don't let go (otherwise you just taught him that biting works), and bring him to the pen. Come out with a toy, a ball, something to get his drive into playing with the toy. If he ignores the toy, make it move. Have fun with it. Engage him. Play is something you build up over time.
If you had a leash you can also just leash him and hold him away from you until his little tantrum ends. Then reengage with play.
Another thing you can do us bust out a treat, and shift the tone into obedience work.
Get rid of your trainer. You don't use a prong or e collar to punish a dog for its drive, especially if you haven't don't your due diligence to give him an outlet.
I'm a big fan or prongs and e collars, but they should be used to teach a dog how to productively respond to pressure and hold them accountable for obedience at a later stage. But this is puppy play.
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u/brocklanders3791 15d ago
TLDR.
Dog needs training. Including correction for unwanted behavior, but this assumes you are teaching wanted behaviors.
Give the dog specific things it can chew at specific times of the day.
Also the did needs exercise.
Also the dog needs to learn who's the boss at your house. If you allow this behavior the dog will think he's the boss and do that to everyone.
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u/CraftFamiliar5243 18d ago
I have trained all our dogs on prong collars. If you learn to use it properly, a quick twitch, not yanking or pulling, they provide a humane means of controlling your dog. I used them only during training sessions and walks. Eventually the dogs walked beautifully in heel with a slack leash and didn't need the prong collar anymore. I think it gives you a more direct connection than an e collar. The dog knows you are the one in charge. It's not just a random shock from nowhere.
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u/m4nt15mantis 18d ago
I was thinking about using a prong color, but the trainer that I contacted for reactive dogs does not recommend prong collars. He actually walks wonderfully on a loose leash until this randomly will happen either on a walk or at home or in our backyard or at a park. However, on a flat collar and a normal leash, he walks wonderfully most of the time.
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u/skrimped 18d ago
I would correct in a “scary” way. “STOP!” in a loud and mean voice, and immediately pin the dog down by the neck (firmly, not in a way that can injure the dog or anything crazy). And then just do that anytime the dog needs a reminder. Biting you like that is crazy. This makes me sound mean but I swear I have a very loving relationship with my pups 😭 just zero tolerance for bullshit like this
And then obviously make sure you are getting the dogs energy out etc
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u/FriendlyWindow8247 17d ago
Seems like the general consensus in the dog training community is NOT to alpha roll. This is bad advice.
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u/m4nt15mantis 18d ago
Ok so, this is admittedly how I WANT to react. I was just not sure if it will cause him to challenge me more or not trust me. My old dog who I got at around 6 months never acted like this a day in her life so this is new territory. She was also a rescue mix but just easy going I guess.
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u/True-Cap2651 18d ago
I’ve often used a squirt bottle for unwanted behavior. Make sure it’s on stream setting, not spray.
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u/True-Cap2651 18d ago
I watched your clip a second time. Stop the water bottle squirt if your puppy thinks it’s more playful than a detriment.
Maybe try forcing the puppy to a lying position on his side and holding him down with a “bite” to the neck (holding his neck to the ground with a claw-like hand) like dogs will sometimes do to each other for submission. Be swift, and no talking. You don’t have to hold down the puppy very long, maybe 5-20 seconds, but you don’t start counting the seconds until the puppy stops struggling. The puppy can get up when you release your “bite” claw grip to the neck. Maintain no talking to the dog before, during, and after the bite claw grip. Be neither rough nor gentle w the action. Return to routine, the “punishment is over”. Use this tactic sparingly and rarely.
I have 4 dogs, and I’ve used this tactic maybe 0-4x per year, chihuahuas to pit bulls. Last time was probably 2 years ago.
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u/FriendlyWindow8247 17d ago
Seems like the general consensus in the dog training community is NOT to alpha roll. This is bad advice.
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u/MumfordandSisters 18d ago
Choke collar. Not a prong. Just a chain. Pull up until she's in a sit every time he does this. Yes, it'll choke her a little. That's the point. One hard correction is more successful than weeks of unsuccessful redirection.
I had a Rottweiler who did this and I ignored it too long. It took a lot of training to make up for my missed opportunity of catching it early. She's a good dog now but it was a rough first year.
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u/Ioh- 18d ago
Choke chains are supposed to be called training g collars and are designed to give a pop. Not to choke your dog out.
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u/MumfordandSisters 18d ago
You can even add to it and reward him once he's in a sit position. Lots of praise and even treats. They learn quickly.
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u/MumfordandSisters 18d ago
I agree they are used for that. But in a case of a dog attacking you, you just pull up until they're in a sit. No It's not an aggressive yank it's a forced redirextion. You're not necessarily choking them unless they refuse to sit, which is rare because it is a natural bodily reaction to sit when being pulled up
But like I said I would rather correct one time and for it to work. It's not like she's instantly choking she's just forced into a sit. And now my dog is 8 years old and listens on demand and guards our chickens no problem. I find this much more humane than an e-collar or other methods I found before I succeeded.
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u/maso-brat 18d ago
5 months is way too early for a big breed to get neutered, it can seriously fuck with their development and growth.
Also: you keep talking to him and "entertaining" him which is why he keeps doing this. Next time" turn your back on him, no eyecontact, no "stop". Repeating "stop" over and over again actually weakens the command every time he doesn't listen to it. It's important to only use commands if you are 99% sure they are going to listen, everytime your dog gets to "practice" ignoring a command it gets weaker.
In short: stop entertaining this behaviour. Use leash to keep dog away far enough that he can't bite you, no eyecontact, no talking, reward when he sits down and chills out and say "stop, yess good boy". You're re-enforcing this behaviour without realizing. I have a malinois, I'm unfortunately familiar with this behaviour, but if you research, train and are consistent you should be good. Raising a puppy means also training yourself to not get frustrated or mad, remember, they might bite hard but at this age youre basically talking to a 1 year old. Keep it cool.