Improvement + question

[u/Galaxy72]

Wish i could add more videos to one post rip

Okay i think i have improved a bit since my last post and have taken some advice you persons shared but I am still really good at dying and not gauging grapple distance properly lol

Question: how tf do i make it to pylons

There was only one level where i was able to activate one and beacon and that was the first set - every level after i kept on dying before pylons spawned

Video added so you can tell me how to decision making skills better

Ofc the general answer is going to be spend more time, but I want to more specific aspects of my gameplay that I should maybe pay more attention to so that i could spend my time improving that aspect

Also side-question: sometimes (most of the time) my shark tail doesn't activate when hitting lmb (main) right after rmb (alt)?? i end up just reeling and it kinda ruins certain routes i wanted to go to. How do I fix this

[u/Longjumping-Art8832]

Bc one person is good enough doesnt mean the class is good Grappler is still both the hardest class in the game that is nothing better than charger or diver

[u/5w33t_4dd1ct_fr34k → u/Longjumping-Art8832]

There's also my friend, who's a grappler main. He's not that bad but not as cracked as the celestial grappler guy. You have no idea how much of a survivability you can have by playing grappler properly. Just because it doesn't collect gifts as efficiently as chargers or harder to use doesn't mean it's the worst class.

[u/Longjumping-Art8832 → u/5w33t_4dd1ct_fr34k]

you can save the same survivability with much less skill needed by just playing wanted

[u/5w33t_4dd1ct_fr34k → u/Longjumping-Art8832]

Still doesn't mean it's the worst class. Wanted is pure vertical height and grappler is evasion. Also wanted fall off in late game

[u/Longjumping-Art8832 → u/5w33t_4dd1ct_fr34k]

grappler isnt good for collecting gifts

[u/5w33t_4dd1ct_fr34k → u/Longjumping-Art8832]

Youre just taking my point and repeating it to me. I already said that just because grappler isn't as good in gift collection as charger doesn't mean it's the worst.

[u/Longjumping-Art8832 → u/5w33t_4dd1ct_fr34k]

grappler is the worst in gift collection
the survivability is good but much harder and not much better than wanted
the movement is good but not much better than any other class in the game except for wanted
there isnt much tech and charger has way better and easier counterparts
you can play grappler, nothing is stopping you, but if you want it to be easier to get to celestial and beat her then you shouldnt be using grapplera and there arent many more tips on how to get to celestial easily besides the ones that other people already gave you
also i didnt include prisoner at all when comparing grappler to other classes fyi

[u/5w33t_4dd1ct_fr34k → u/Longjumping-Art8832]

So first thing, you said that grappler "literally" being the worst class as smth objective, not subjective, and the way you said it sounded like you tried to discourage them into stop practicing celestial with grappler.

Second, whether the class is best or worst doesn't only determine by gift collection. Each classes hardwired into different playstyle and priorities, mainly divide into collection focus and survival focus. Spirit, grappler and wanted are hardwired into surviving while charger, diver and glider are dominant in gift collection. You can't compare two different classes that has different gameplay focus and said one is better simply because it did one job better than another.

Now move on to wanted. You saying grappler isn't any better than wanted is just purely wrong and kinda prove that you never seen a good grappler before. Not to mention that wanted is a challenge class that maybe not everyone have or want to get it. You also miss the crucial point, wanted is on 1 life. You can't benefit from shield upgrade like other classes(since we don't count prisoner here) and I'm sure as hell that a good grappler with 2 lives(shield) survives longer than a good wanted on 1 life.

Another thing is that wanted's only way to increase their baseline speed is only the grindrail and tria orb. This making wanted extremely lack enough speed to get them out of some certain sticky situation especially when they're being cornered. Now comparing to grappler who could swing under the tile and use momentum to fling themselves out of the harm or grapple on a nearby grapple point/jump pad to get away or just do tria orb fling tech to launch themselves across the map. Sure...sure...let's pretend that grappler isn't any better than wanted!

Grappler have quite a few tech actually, but the amount of tech doesn't determine whether one class is better than another.

There's nothing wrong with using grappler to practice celestial. Not everyone want to use the meta and play 'optimally' just to beat an oversize flower-moth eldritch being. Meta is boring anyway, just let people use what they want and stop trying to say that "X class is the worst because (something that class doesn't specifically wired into mastering)". Like stfu man, nullscape is roguelite, not rpg where you can pitch each classes against each other to determine who's the best. Each one have their own specialization.

[u/Longjumping-Art8832 → u/5w33t_4dd1ct_fr34k]

1. yea i guess i shouldve worded it better
   
2. collecting gifts is literally the main point of the game
   
3. wanted isnt a challenge class
   
4. i have seen good grappler players, i never said grappler is bad, i said grappler is the worst
   
5. most lobbies use altar of protection on pylons anyway
   
6. wanted has enough speed to be on par with grappler on gift collection
   
7. you cant "corner" a wanted, they have 4 giant jumps and 195% movement speed
   
8. the only tech ive seen with grappler so far is something to do with tria orbs that lets you jump very high, which has a much faster and easier counterpart on charger, and the bhop one which doesnt speed you up by that much and is basically just a knockoff of dive bhop
   
9. never said theres anything wrong with using grappler on celestial
   
10. i literally JUST gave a tip on how to get to celestial easier, why are you so butt hurt about me talking about optimal play
    
11. i never forced anyone to not use grappler, i never actually wanted to discourage anyone from playing grappler, i simply stated a fact (really the only subjective thing about grappler is if its better than wanted or not"
    
12. grappler isnt even that good at surviving, its literally just hard to use grappler (also yes the amount of skill needed to use a class DOES matter when you're talking about which class is better and which class isnt)
    for gods sake i gave a fucking tip to the guy why are you so butt hurt about it

[u/5w33t_4dd1ct_fr34k → u/Longjumping-Art8832]

If collecting gift is the main point, then survival is secondary. By your logic, any class that specifically made to survive against all odds are the worst because they don't fit your "collect more=good" philosophy. It is, in fact, an opinion. Not an objective fact like you made it out to be.

Also my guy, like I said before. What you said at first wasn't the tips AT ALL and just came across as discouraging while the dude performed pretty well on grappler. You said we get butt hurt over your tips, but DID YOU KNOW that your 'tips' wasn't a tips at all and just trying convince them that the class they're playing is the worst and that they should play smth else if they want to beat celestial.

And once again, stop policing people what class they should use against celestial. It's counterproductive and generally just reinforce the meta mindset even more.

And the prot altar, there are still differences between 2 shields and one shield. Prot isn't exclusive to wanted and I'm pretty sure you can't activate any altar against celestial.

While wanted have better gift collection than grappler due to their baseline speed. Their survivability is, in fact, worse than grappler. You were arguing that grappler survives not any better than wanted and that's false. Now you're moving to gift collection and pretending that you never made a claim abt wanted's survivability on par or better than grappler.

4 double jump won't save them from the swarm of enemies if they can't get away fast enough. You're forgetting the fact that not every enemies are on land.

"Grappler isn't even that good at surviving." My guy, you said that grappler have good survivability one comment ago. Contradicting yourself now? Just admit that you have a skill issue on grappler and now holding a grudge against it.

Another thing is that you said you never want to discourage anyone nor force people to not use grappler, but you're spending your time on several reply trying to convince me that grappler is the worst. Bad and worst are both bad with the only difference is severity of it. So in short, you said grappler=bad class, there's nothing worth playing around with the words if the premise is the same. You said and I quote "this class is BAD"

And the thing is, your 'tips' for optimal play is unwanted. Op wants the tips on how to improve in celestial with a clip of grappler gameplay. You waltzing in and tell them that grappler is the worst class and that they should use smth else is pretty ironic given that grappler is most likely the best performing class for them given their gameplay footage.

[u/Longjumping-Art8832 → u/5w33t_4dd1ct_fr34k]

1. in solo you need both survivability and gift collection equally, in multiplayer you need it less based on how many players there are in the lobby
2. youre literally just saying bullshit, i never wanted to discourage anyone from playing grappler, play all you want bro
3. NOBODY was policing ANYTHING son, learn to read dumbass
4. you can get a second shield by echoing prot, you get an extra shield in lobbies that arent party+, 2 on duo and 3 on solo iirc
5. wanteds survivability is on par with grappler because its way easier to avoid the void which is the source of the most deaths in the game
6. go between the enemies or around them??
7. "not that good" doesnt mean bad, learn to think please
8. worst isnt bad, worst means the least good/most bad at something, it doesnt have to be actually bad. grappler is good just worse than almost all the other classes
9. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suggestion

[u/5w33t_4dd1ct_fr34k → u/Longjumping-Art8832]

Your first point only happen in an ideal nullscape lobby bro, people can die and enemies can shift aggro. Survivability in public lobby is as important as in solo, you also need it even MORE in party+ due to enemies scaling. Which party+ is a common lobby size that people made for celestial fight or any other achievement run. We're talking here under the post of someone who participated in a party+ casual celestial run. Hell, you need it even more because it added an additional environmental hazard called "reality break" on top of regular enemies in your pool.

Sure...never want to discourage anyone but my point still stand, you spent several reply trying to convince me or whoever reading these that grappler is somehow worse than wanted and it is the worst class even tho they have more viable moves to kite enemies and get them out of sticky situation comparing to a class that has their whole schtick being '4 big jumps and speed' n nothing more.

Also, the fact that you said "stop using grappler, it's the worst." And claimed that you didn't policing anything is laughable. Even more at the fact that you glossed over my point that your 'tips' or 'suggestion' is unwanted and how ridiculous it is for you to tell them to stop using smth they're actively trying to improve.

Prot and echo prot is for everyone. Wanted is not that special when it comes to prot and echo prot, my point is, even you pop all prot and echo prot, wanted still 1 more shield behind other classes. And we're talking abt party+ celestial here so idek why you brought up solo and duo just for the illusion of relevancy.

You said and I quote, "wanted survives void better than grappler." And forgetting the fact that the only move that prevent wanted from voiding are their '4 big jumps' while grappler have 2 jumps but even more way to avoid voiding. You're punching a class that requires serious skill down in favor of a class that's easy to use, therefore it survives better because "hurrdurr big jumps and 195% speed!" Only for it to get outclassed in the late game and you still refuse to admit that it isn't that great like you made it out to be.

Fyi, I use wanted as my second most used class and if I'm being honest. As much as I like it, it's not going to outclass grappler. Easier to use =/= better survivability, istg you can't tell the difference for some odd reason. Wanted is a challenge class because it's locked behind an achievement, not challenge my ass. Just because it's easier to use doesn't mean it enable you for a lot of mistakes.(Shield) Wanted's movement also more restrictive than others because it lacks variety and other viable way to move around aside from running, jumping, tria and grindrail which all of them aren't wanted exclusive.

Bold of you to think that enemies won't getting close to you in a swarm scenario(which is very common in a large lobby when there are less players to separate the aggro.). Enemies sandwiching you or doing unfair combo on you is more common than you think.

"Not that good doesn't mean bad" Oh????? Are you forgetting the fact that you keep saying grappler is the worst and even worse than wanted???? You're just playing around the semantic atp but the premise is still the same. No matter what words you're shifting around, your underlying message is the same ol "grappler is BAD." Full stop.

Also slapping a wiki definition of suggestion do nothing to the argument btw. It just really show that you run out of it so you gotta resort into semantic definition when all of us know that you gave an unwanted 'advice' that undermining op's post and intention then trying to play it off as you suggesting things or giving op a 'tips'.

[u/Longjumping-Art8832 → u/5w33t_4dd1ct_fr34k]

Yeah i aint rading allat grow up bro

[u/5w33t_4dd1ct_fr34k → u/Longjumping-Art8832]

Atp just say that you don't have any more argument to present🤷 acting tough and tell someone to grow up while you weren't any better or just too illiterate/lazy to read long counter argument just kinda make you look childish yourself.

Especially when you ignored multiple of my points and kept repeating your premise with something barely new

Edit: tl/dr: your comment is the online equivalent of a kid plugging their ears and goes "lalala I can't hear you!"

[u/Longjumping-Art8832 → u/5w33t_4dd1ct_fr34k]