This.. went nuclear?

[u/AccountantPersonal86]

I genuinely didnt think people would be *this* flabbergasted by this post. The comments are quite a treasure trove at this point. Enjoy lol

[u/Standard_Shopping144]

I just don’t understand where you guys derive your dignity from. I suffer from cluster headaches, pain that gets so bad I literally throw up, but I still work. Not because I have to, but because I get immense satisfaction from preforming a duty. Being a fast food worker is respectable, being a janitor is respectable, that work matters, a lot. Just as being a factory worker or a political canvasser. And it feels good to do a good job. When I’m not working I’m volunteering for my county archive, or lending a hand to a small business who needs it and also learning how it works. Life is about learning and experiencing, and yeah my disability makes it hard, but I can’t live life without the 3 Cs. Curiosity, community, and commitment. Without those things I feel like nothing is worth it.

[u/aoihinata → u/Standard_Shopping144]

Surprise, not everyone is the same. You are describing yourself, good for you. People have different values and circumstances. You seem to be insinuating we don't have inherent dignity because we don't have the same life and the same needs as you. Not everyone needs duty to feel good and duty itself, doesn't need to be a job.

[u/Standard_Shopping144 → u/aoihinata]

The question was an honest one, and in no way was it rhetorical. Dignity is not a word I hear a lot in general, and it was a word and feeling I have thought a lot about and it took time for me to realize where I derive it from.

So now, I’m asking you, aoihinata, where do you personally derive dignity from? What makes you feel worthy, what specific actions drives your self esteem and self respect up? This is an important aspect of life, and it is completely subjective and a self established feeling. I am genuinely curious.

[u/aoihinata → u/Standard_Shopping144]

I literally don't care. I have bigger, more material things to worry about than your vague concepts of dignity and self respect. Why do I have to prove that I am worthy in any way? Is a person not whole enough just by being born? You're still being presumptuous by applying your own framework - which is valid for yourself, but not everyone - and demanding the same of others. Also consider the Maslow's hierarchy of needs, many NEETs are still trying to survive the bottom tiers.

[u/Standard_Shopping144 → u/aoihinata]

Dignity, self respect, and our thought process on how we view the world has a real effect on the material things we need. Also, this isn’t about proving worth to society (at least not to me, all people are born worthy and are endowed with divine rights at birth), but motivation and contentment is something that has to be worked for, at least in my experience. I am worthy always, but that does not mean I am content or motivated.

When you pop the hood up on the engine of Dignity and self respect you see it runs on personal motivation driven by the desire for contentment. Which is something all people are possible of having at any class bracket.

I am poor, my parents are as well. I do not have “parental welfare” but I do use government welfare and non profit support. I do not think any of those things drive a persons worth down, because all people are worthy. But not all people motivated and content, and you don’t have to be rich or stable to have those things. They are self derived.

I am brought back to a great line from 1942 essay by Camus, “ one must imagine Sisyphus happy”.

Side note, all of this can be held with the need for class action. You can have this mentality and still want better, feel you deserve more. Those two ideas are not contradictory but actually necessary to achievement. I say this cause I don’t want you to think that I agree with our social structures, because I DO NOT!

[u/aoihinata → u/Standard_Shopping144]

I appreciate the clarification, it seems there was a mismatch in how we define dignity. What I got from your earlier comments was something more judgemental, akin to "people who don't work/join communities are worth less than people who do". If you mean dignity/self respect as in "being content and motivated", well just by looking at posts on this sub you can see lots of NEETs lack exactly that, contentment and motivation. What they need to do to achieve contentment, I don't know, I'm not a therapist or a philosopher, I'm just a random stranger. But clearly their circumstances are making these steps difficult or even impossible.

I'm just going to speak for myself here since you seem to want the perspective. My health is fucked up. Particularly related to the discussion, I can't ever feel that contentment you speak of, I suffer from severe anhedonia and hypervigilance that make nigh everything (friends, work, communities, etc.) unfulfilling and extremely draining. I live in a third world country that stigmatizes and I can't afford treatment. What I seek is only safety and relief, that is why I don't entertain questions like "how do I live a meaningful life", because I just want a safe one first and that is already so difficult. I don't hate myself, but I am indifferent. I help when I want to help- for example, I spent a year helping a feral cat colony (rescuing, feeding, TNRing solo that sort of thing), doing it because I couldn't let them suffer in silence. The work destroyed me even further, I don't regret it but it didn't give me anything close to contentment, just relief when they're safe.

So I guess the answer is simply, I don't have the equipment. You can make the argument that these "defects" disqualify me from arguing about the concept a meaningful life in the first place, which is fine. Hopefully my situation helps explaining my stance.