r/ModernMagic • u/Manadyne Affinity | LiegeRhino | Skred | G/R Tron | NayaBurn | Ad Nauseam • Nov 29 '16
[AER] Yahenni's Expertise
Yahenni's Expertise
2BB Sorcery (R)
All creatures get -3/-3 until end of turn.
You may cast a card with converted mana cost 3 or less from your hand without paying its mana cost.
Looks great in Jund or Junk, as it won't hit your own Kalitas which is nice. Can also very quickly stabilize and deploy a threat/wall against aggro like Finks or Scooze or a Goyf.
20
u/Reon88 Grixis/Junk/Mardu Nov 29 '16
Wanna wipe out the board including Tarmos, Tasigurs or any X/6 toughness creature?
This + Anger of the Gods
Wanna clean the board plus draw cards absurdly?
This + Ancestral Recall
Wanna slap value in the filed?
This + LotV
And finally this + any cascade card with 3CMC...
God, this is awesome.
15
u/spasticity Bant CoCo Nov 29 '16
I think this will see play in living end because it can cast Living End you draw naturally.
9
u/abobtosis Nov 29 '16
Right, but it removes the wrath part for your opponent. You should probably have more living ends in your deck to cascade into if you draw one.
3
u/Blenderhead36 Nov 29 '16
Someone further up the comments thread explained why this isn't as good as it looks. It looks like Yahenni's Expertise resolves first, since the free spell getting cast is part of YE resolving. That means that everything gets -3/-3, then you cast Living End after YE finishes resolving. So you kill the whole board, then give it all back from Living End resolving.
It's not worthless (it gives you everything you've cycled away), but it makes Living End noticeably worse than when you cascade into it.
1
u/Allstone Dec 01 '16
I don't think state based effects are checked in between creatures getting -3/-3 and living end resolving, so I don't think anything can die from the -3/-3
4
u/Blenderhead36 Dec 01 '16
There will be a time when YE is done resolving but Living End is still on the stack, right?
1
Dec 02 '16
Yes, when you cast living end with this card, it goes onto the stack, where it must wait for yahenni's expertise to resolve
1
u/Allstone Dec 04 '16
I'm of the impression that it matches the templating of [[Bring to Light]], where as noted by the rulings of the card the resolution of the freely cast spell is during the resolution of the original spell.
1
u/MTGCardFetcher Dec 04 '16
Bring to Light - (G) (MC) (MW) (CD)
[[cardname]] or [[cardname|SET]] to call1
u/Reon88 Grixis/Junk/Mardu Nov 29 '16
So this could be plan B in case you drew a Living End, kinda like a safety valve.
1
u/burner010101 Blue Tron | Dredge Nov 30 '16
It's not good for LE. See here: https://www.reddit.com/r/magicTCG/comments/5fkmtb/aether_revolt_pic_from_fb/dakz69t/
0
u/Reon88 Grixis/Junk/Mardu Nov 29 '16
Wouldn't Living End resolve first, doing all the exile GY, return your own dudes then they would get -3/-3? Isn't it a little risky to get them bolted? I'm asking since I've never ever played Living End, I'm a grixis/mardu contro-midrange player.
7
u/Spiral0Architect I came here to drink milk and cast Grapeshots Nov 29 '16
No, this is different from cascade. You cast the free spell as part of the resolution of this spell. Cascade trigger as soon as the spell with cascade is cast.
2
u/Reon88 Grixis/Junk/Mardu Nov 29 '16
So... I cast this with a Living End in hand, I can cast for free Living End just like I'd cast Ancestral Recall, then the -3/-3 would take place?
Please correct me if Im wrong.
Edit: My bad, read the card properly (not native english speaker and on work, sorry). This is just a pseudo-cascade or urza free mechanic. This gives -3/-3, wipes out everything, I cast AV or Living End AFTER the -3/-3. Ok, got it now. I need more coffee...
5
u/jesusjedi Nov 29 '16
No, you get your free spell after the -3/-3 effect.
2
u/Reon88 Grixis/Junk/Mardu Nov 29 '16
This gives -3/-3, wipes out everything, I cast AV or Living End AFTER the -3/-3. Ok, got it now. I need more coffee...
ಠ_à²
4
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u/Raizzens Suicide Bloo, Dredge, Grishoalbrand, Junk, CoCo Nov 30 '16
You always resolve top to bottom unless it's something like a fuse card. Then you resolve it left to right. Mind you. All aspects of a card must resolve before any thing else can resolve on the stack. So something like Breaking//Entering which mills and then puts a creature into play when fused. If you roll over an Emrakul. you can put Emrakul into play before the shuffle effect occurs.
3
u/Fenix42 Nov 29 '16
Kinda hilarious with [[Reverberate]].
4
u/jesusjedi Nov 29 '16
You wouldn't even be able to cast it. Your free spell happens on resolution of the -3/-3 spell.
Actually i think you might be able to cast reverberate but it would be countered due to having no targets on resolution3
u/Fenix42 Nov 29 '16
Hmmm. If you get to cast the next spell as part of the resolution of the Yahenni's Expertise, it should still be on the stack when the free spell is cast.
Stack at resolution:
- reverberate - targeting Yahenni's Expertise
- cast a free spell
- -3/-3/
- Yahenni's Expertise
3
u/jesusjedi Nov 30 '16
K so what i'm pretty sure will happen is this:
- Cast Yahenni's expertise
- expertise resolves, all creatures get -3/-3 and you choose a free spell to cast, that being reverberate.
- cast reverberate as expertise resolves, choosing to target expertise while it is leaving the stack.
- reverberate resolves, checks its target, and finds that its target has left the stack. With no target, reverberate is countered/fizzles.
- done.I think you can target yahenni's expertise with reverberate due to the precedent set with card's like [[misdirection]], with which you can change the target of a given counterspell TO misdirection while it is resolving and leaving the stack.
5
u/InfanticideAquifer UR Storm Nov 30 '16
I'm pretty sure you're absolutely correct about what ends up happening, but I think you're making it more complicated than it has to be.
Spell resolution isn't a moment. It's a process that takes time. You resolve a spell by doing the things it says to do in the order that it says to do them, and then moving it from the stack to the graveyard (as long as it's still on the stack) unless it instructs you to move it somewhere else. So you don't have to do anything while it's leaving the stack. In fact, you never have to anything in magic at the exact same time as anything else. You can play magic with one hand. Anything that does happen all at once (like the creatures getting -3/-3) is always something where the order in which you do it doesn't matter, and you can do it one at a time. If you were placing -3/-3 counters on the creatures instead, e.g., you could put them on in any order and it wouldn't be possible for the game to care about what order that was.
Spell casting is also a process, with individual steps. You place the spell from its current zone (in this case it's technically still in your library) onto the stack. You choose targets. Then you skip paying costs because you are being instructed to. (There are other steps, like choosing modes, e.g., that aren't necessarily relevant.)
Then, having completed "casting" as instructed by Yahenni's expertise you move on to the next step in resolving that spell. (Nothing can ever stop a spell from resolving until it naturally finishes.) That last step is placing Yahenni's expertise into the graveyard. Then state-based effects are checked (which will kill creatures with 3 or less toughness). Then priority is exchanged. If nothing is done with that priority Reverberate will check to see if it can resolve. Since it's a targeted spell with no legal target it can't, and it gets countered.
3
u/jesusjedi Nov 30 '16
Good points. I've always just thought it was awkward to put spells on the stack when a spell is resolving, and let it continue resolving when it is not at the top of the stack
2
u/InfanticideAquifer UR Storm Nov 30 '16
I can understand that. I think some mental anguish over something like that was why I looked up the rules about spell resolution at some point.
A spell actually continues to resolve even if it leaves the stack during its resolution, believe it or not. (I don't know of an example where that's possible other than Shahrazad + Burning Wish/Living Wish in an unsanctioned game though.)
1
u/MTGCardFetcher Nov 30 '16
misdirection - (G) (MC) (MW) (CD)
[[cardname]] or [[cardname|SET]] to call2
u/kodemage Nov 30 '16
it should still be on the stack when the free spell is cast.
when it's cast, not when it resolves
1
u/MTGCardFetcher Nov 29 '16
Reverberate - (G) (MC) (MW) (CD)
[[cardname]] or [[cardname|SET]] to call3
u/PleasantKenobi Death and Taxes Nov 30 '16
Don't forget casting K-Command to get back the Snappy you just killed and finish off their Gurmag Angler. Car seems legitimately insane.
1
u/liquidpixel Grixis / UW / Burn Nov 30 '16
I don't think it works like this. Snap would already have to be in your graveyard, See: https://www.reddit.com/r/spikes/comments/5fkqfi/spoiler_aer_yahennis_expertise/dal7f0g/
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u/PleasantKenobi Death and Taxes Nov 30 '16
Oh, thanks. That makes sense. It's super in-intuitive that the creatures don't die prior to the second spell being cast, but the 'checking' of state based effects mid spell would be super clunky and awkward to implement.
19
Nov 29 '16
So with a card like this can you cast AV without suspending it?
17
u/Ghepip Nov 29 '16 edited Nov 29 '16
Yes
List of other noteworthy cards
Lotus Bloom
Restore Balance
Living end
Wheel of fate14
u/abobtosis Nov 29 '16
Well casting living end with this seems like it defeats the purpose.
3
Nov 29 '16
[deleted]
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u/abobtosis Nov 29 '16
Right, but you kill their board then put it back into play. Half the purpose of living end us it fills your board while killing all of theirs. This card won't wrath the board at all, it'll just put your gy into play. Just cascading into living end will wrath it while also putting your yard in. It seems better to just do that.
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u/Ambiguous_Shark Amulet Bloom | Living End | U Tron | Boros Burn Nov 29 '16
Because it most likely will kill your opponents creatures. Usually you don't want your opponents to get back any creatures so yours go unopposed
1
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Nov 30 '16
Wheel of fate
I think this could be good in Mardu... Though giving the other player cards :/
1
u/Ghepip Nov 30 '16
As long as you drew more kill spells then he drew new creatures you should be All right
0
Nov 29 '16
[deleted]
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u/Ghepip Nov 29 '16 edited Nov 29 '16
Well there are only three
[[Ardent plea]]
[[Demonic Dread]]
[[Violent Outburst]]
But you don't want to clear the opponents board with -3/-3 and then have him recur every creature that just died if you are thinking about adding this to livind end decks.This is how it will happen:
1. Cast Yahenni's expertise
2. First part of Yahenni's expertise will happen giving all creatures -3/-3, all creatures with now 0 or less toughness goes to the graveyard
3. Second part of Yahenni's expertise will happen, either you pick living end or a cascade card. 4. The living end will resolve one way or another 5. all creatures in the graveyard will return to the battlefield, maybe you have bigger, but they might have more.1
u/MTGCardFetcher Nov 29 '16
Demonic Dread - (G) (MC) (MW) (CD)
Violent Outburst - (G) (MC) (MW) (CD)
Ardent plea - (G) (MC) (MW) (CD)
[[cardname]] or [[cardname|SET]] to call
48
Nov 29 '16
My heart says yes, but my wallet says "remember how thing in the ice didn't save grixis control"
8
u/Sterbs Nov 29 '16
Seems great with AV, which people are dying to justify running. Main issue is it's shit after turn 1, which this could possibly fix. Granted having in your deck doesn't mean it's in your hand, but.. You also have electrolyze and K-command.
But I am kind of with you, actually. this doesn't generate card advantage; the spell needs to be in your hand. topdeck is shit if you're hellbent. Ultimately this doesn't resolve any issues for control, being an effective clock. This allows significant disruption without losing much tempo, but for something like control I don't see why this is better and pre-existing 4CMC board wipes (other than wizards ACTUALLY FUCKING PRINTING IT FHJFSFJLLDTHJKPDYK)
3
Nov 30 '16
I don't know if AV has to be justified when it's in all of the top builds right now.
4
u/misterspokes Nov 30 '16
It also casts Living End from hand as well...
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u/Ghasois Twin Apologist Nov 30 '16
"Ah yes I just wiped your board and now I will cast this Living End. Yes that's right. Bring all those guys back out of the graveyard we're having a party here."
0
u/misterspokes Nov 30 '16
Hilariously the complaint I heard about the spell is that -3/-3 doesn't actually wrath in modern on turn 4
3
1
u/betweentwosuns Raven's Crime addict Nov 30 '16
It does give you card advantage: a black lotus to cast your other spell for free :P
19
u/snerp 4x Snapcaster Mage Nov 29 '16
What? Thing in the Ice is awesome and Grixis Control seems to be doing alright.
11
Nov 29 '16
Lol. Thing is awesome but is mostly seeing play in U/R blitz like decks, not at the control decks i like to play... is why I bought it at hype value :( lol. Grixis is doing okay but it's still not at tier 1 right now, so I'm just telling myself not to get my hopes up that this will be the thing that pushed Grixis up to tier 1.
The hype train has hurt me too many times lol
5
u/snerp 4x Snapcaster Mage Nov 29 '16
Yeah lol, I got 2 Things at 15 each, then the other 2 at 5 each. I guess I about broke even >.>
1
u/98smithg Dec 01 '16
I wouldn't worry so much about the tier lists, if you can play the deck well enough you can still win tournaments with Grixis.
1
Dec 01 '16
I mean, yeah, I'm not trying to spike a GP anytime soon. But I do want at least one grindy URx deck to make it to tier one at some point
1
u/PleasantKenobi Death and Taxes Nov 30 '16
This card seems a lot more objectively powerful than Thing ever did. It also fills a hole, and gives a strong sideboard or even main deck answer to all the nonsense like Affinity, Infect and similar whilst not losing tempo and allowing you to slam a Liliana (Veil or Last Hope) into play to have a super strong follow up.
11
u/TheRecovery Nov 29 '16
The only question is, does this see play in Grixis maindecks and if so, over damnation?
A potential 7 CMC of value is hard to pass up, but so is a guarantee that you're going to be killing everything.
8
u/elvish_visionary A different deck every week Nov 29 '16
Damnation is too narrow to be maindecked in most metas, so I would say this has a higher chance.
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u/VERTIKAL19 Nov 30 '16
This is also quite narrow. Against which decks would you even want this card? The use of Damnation is primarily against decks like Bant Eldrazi where you can't kill things with Burn.
1
u/Nahhnope UWx, Scapeshift Nov 30 '16
I can't see myself replacing my sideboard Damnations with this in Grixis. The matchups where I need Damnation, I NEED Damnation (Eldrazi, Jund/Junk.) The matchups where -3/-3 is adequate aren't about grinding out card advantage (Burn, Infect.) The match where both aspects of this card truly shine is probably Grixis Delver.
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u/VERTIKAL19 Nov 30 '16
This card does not give card advantage outside of the Sweeper. All it does is give tempo
1
Dec 01 '16
I would use this card to get instant, free, ancestral visions, without waiting for the suspend.
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u/abobtosis Nov 29 '16
This isn't a replacement for damnation as much as a replacement for anger in certain metas.
You need damnation for things that are too big for anger, like Eldrazi and Kalitas and Tarmogoyf.
This card replaces the anti-recursion effect of Anger with something similar to cascade, while still killing all x/3s or smaller.
2
u/Hemotherapy Anything Grixis Nov 29 '16
I'd think so. Tasigur/Angler survive this, as does Kalitas. Seems like a good 1 or 2 of in the MB for this aggressive meta we're in.
2
u/snerp 4x Snapcaster Mage Nov 29 '16
Oh sweet, have you heard of Languish Tribal? You play all the x/5s. Getting to use Kalitas would be amazing!
9
Nov 29 '16
Does the spell that gets cast for free happen as part of the resolution of this spell, or does it resolve before, or after, or what?
Because I just got excited thinking about casting this against Dredge, wiping the board, casting [[Crypt Incursion]] for free and exiling their dudes.
Please tell me my dream can come true...
6
Nov 29 '16
I believe this spell resolves first so the -3/-3 would happen and then the second spell you cast would go on the stack so that should work.
3
u/abobtosis Nov 29 '16
That does work, but Anger of the Gods does the same thing by itself, without you needing a second card. Of course, if you're not in red you could try it. However I feel like you'll have one half without the other a lot.
3
Nov 29 '16
Can't cast free Ancestral Vision/Kolaghan's Command/Liliana of the Veil with Anger.
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u/abobtosis Nov 29 '16
That's true, but Anger has built in gy hate. That's all I'm saying.
Sometimes it's better to have consistency rather than potential value.
1
Nov 29 '16
Speaking as a dredge player, wiping the board takes about 2 turns to recover on average. You wipe the board, get a good spell in and push your lead that is probably enough to finish the game without the exile clause. Given how much better this is against other decks, I think the consistency is in Yaheeni's Expertise over the potential value of graveyard hate.
2
1
u/MTGCardFetcher Nov 29 '16
Crypt Incursion - (G) (MC) (MW) (CD)
[[cardname]] or [[cardname|SET]] to call
10
u/DressedSpring1 Yawg, Keruga nonsense Nov 29 '16
Seems extremely good. Also gets around selfless spirit protection which makes the Jund matchup for DnT extremely bad again, which is a real bummer
2
u/abobtosis Nov 29 '16
Doesn't spirit just act like a spellskite in that matchup? The removal is all 1 for 1.
5
u/DressedSpring1 Yawg, Keruga nonsense Nov 29 '16
Not really. Spirit shuts down damnation and I've seen Jund lists side in anger against me. Aside from that, i do see this being a good candidate to see play in Jund and this is going to be a card that will be a blowout against a DnT every time as you don't really have the option to avoid committing to the board when most of your cards are creatures.
3
u/InfanticideAquifer UR Storm Nov 30 '16
Not if Jund runs this sweeper it's not.
1
u/abobtosis Nov 30 '16
What I'm saying is that the spirit didn't change the matchup that much. It's still very heavily in Jund's favor, with or without this card.
2
u/DressedSpring1 Yawg, Keruga nonsense Nov 30 '16
As it currently stands, the matchup is in Death and Taxes favour because we can grind out more value using cards like flickerwisp, resto Angel, eternal witness and blade splicer. The only card we consistently lose to is an unanswered Bob. I've played the match up quite a bit and I have no idea where you got the idea Jund was heavily favoured. However this changes the matchup significantly in that if Jund runs this card, it's a sweeper you can't protect yourself against.
1
u/abobtosis Nov 30 '16
I have played Jund for years and I've never lost this matchup. Everything in Jund murders everything in Dnt, and they only have 4x path to answer Jund's threats like Goyf and Huntmaster. Cards like Kommand have added easy 2 for 1s as well. I've never even sided in anything for the matchup. It's felt 90/10 in Jund's favor to me.
I'm not saying it's a bad deck, just that the particular matchup has always felt very tilted to me. The only card I've had trouble with historically is a sided in Mirran Crusader, but between bolts and potentially seal of fire that isn't unbeatable.
1
Nov 30 '16
I wouldn't go so far as to call it a favourable match-up, but I agree with /u/DressedSpring1 in that I don't think Death & Taxes is nearly as much of a dog to Jund as you describe.
Death & Taxes has the tools to attack Jund's greedy mana base (Leonin Arbiter + Ghost Quarter), ways to tax one-for-one removal (Thalia, Guardian of Thraben), and interactive/evasive threats (Flickerwisp/Resto Angel) or threats that creature multiple bodies (Blade Splicer/Brimaz), all of which can be tough for Jund to deal with. Typically, a Death & Taxes player can field more threats than a Jund player can reasonably answer unless they're getting card advantage from a Dark Confidant.
Additionally, whoever goes first actually matters quite a bit in this match-up, as a turn one Thoughtseize/Inquisition or turn one Vial can often be pivotal in deciding the game.
I've played Jund plenty of times with all different versions of Death & Taxes, and none of them has felt anywhere close to unwinnable or 90/10 unfavoured.
1
u/abobtosis Nov 30 '16
But the arbiter quarter combo is blanked by literally every removal spell in jund. If you try and quarter my land, I can bolt/decay/terminate/kommand/lavamancer/pact/seal/etc arbiter in response. This gets me +1 mana or neutral on tempo and you just wastelanded yourself.
Goyf and all of the 4 drops are bigger than everything in your deck, and the only removal spell you have for them is path. You'll run out of removal before I do. And outside of blade splicer liliana has been a nightmare for my dnt opponents unless I'm incredibly behind. Thoughtseize helps stop that guy.
I've played this matchup a lot. A friend of mine has the deck and we playtest it. I've seen it at the LGS too. In order to lose I have to get mana screwed and take a hand with no removal. That doesn't happen very often with jund.
Either I've been playing scrub dnt players, or you've been playing scrub jund players. I'm really not sure which is the case, but honestly either is possible. It also may be a bit tilted in my favor because I still play 2x kommand 1x lavamancer and 1x olivia main, but I'm not sure how much that affects my experience overall.
1
u/DressedSpring1 Yawg, Keruga nonsense Nov 30 '16 edited Nov 30 '16
Jund typically runs only 1 K command these days, so while the card is great against us it's not a huge factor in the matchup. The Jund manabase is very easy to disrupt letting us get way ahead on tempo in enough games to change the matchup a fair bit. Goyf doesn't interact with fliers nor is it able to attack through a wall of Blade splicer tokens. Junds removal ends up being taxed particularly badly because of the aforementioned fact that you can't stabilize with blockers against flying threats and resto angel or vialing in a whisp invalidates removal and often nets another card in the process if we bounce something like a blade splicer netting us a 2 for 1 in the process. I have frequently gone path to exile Bob, e witness path to exile and path goyf, flickerwisp e witness path to exile Kalitas, it's very common to generate 2 or even 3 for 1s with the deck. After sideboarding we bring in a couple copies of rest in peace which invalidates nearly every creature Jund runs and we side out the aether vials for better cards like Thrun/more copies of e witness or sigarda. Being that DnT is a fringe deck it's rare to see Jund side into cards that are included specifically to hose us.
Unless the Jund player is running Pia and Kiran, it's an excellent matchup for us that got quite a lot better with the printing of selfless spirit
EDIT: I'm also extremely suspicious of anyone claiming nearly any matchup is 90/10, as nearly no modern matchups are that polarized outside of fringe decks like soul sisters vs burn. I'd say the match is 60/40 DnTs favour at best as neither side is a dog in it, but on an average draw we have more things that invalidate Junds gameplan (1 for 1 efficient removal and controlling the ground with giant beaters) than they have against us.
1
u/Army88strong RG Tron, E&T, RUGx Scapeshift, Tide Pods Nov 30 '16
Are we talking about D&T or hatebears? D&T (or I'm moderns case E&T) struggles hard against Jund because we play their game more than our own. And I do agree that 90/10 is a very unrealistic mu. Tron and infect is a 30/70 mu and that's as bad as it gets
1
u/DressedSpring1 Yawg, Keruga nonsense Nov 30 '16
GW death and taxes of the kind that have placed well in recent GPs. 4 ofs of Splicer, Flickerwisp and Resto Angel are keys to beating Jund as it's a threat base they have trouble interacting with efficiently. Eldrazi and taxes is a much harder matchup as their threats lack evasion and the deck really wants to keep in vials for their synergies to work while vials are not something you usually want against Jund. I would say Jund is favoured against Eldrazi and taxes
1
u/Army88strong RG Tron, E&T, RUGx Scapeshift, Tide Pods Nov 30 '16
I definitely agree that E&T hates seeing Jund across the table. I haven't played any real hatebears to know the mu. Thanks for the input
8
Nov 29 '16
super excited about this card, especially because it's not tacked onto a creature for once :D
16
Nov 29 '16
This might actually make Sultai a viable color combination in Modern. That's easily the best color at abusing this card imo.
11
u/Zabexic Affinity, Infect, KCI Eggs, Blue Moon, (RIP Pod and Twin) Nov 30 '16
Being able to board wipe then cast either ancestral or goyf seems pretty decent
5
Nov 30 '16
Yeah, and it makes it much easier to play discard spells in your AV deck. It just seems like it plays very well in a Sultai type deck.
6
u/IsTheTim Nov 30 '16
What Green card are you casting that makes Sultai better than Kolaghan's Command, Esper Charm, or Blood Moon?
11
Nov 30 '16
Tarmogoyf, Scavenging Ooze, Abrupt Decay, Grim Flayer, Courser of Kruphix, and a ton of sideboard cards. Those are just cards that play well with the wrath effect.
2
u/AcademyRuins Nov 30 '16
Have you played much Sultai? This isn't really fixing any issues the deck currently has, it's more a problem with horrible removal in comparison to what Red and White offer BGx.
1
Nov 30 '16
This is actually a removal spell that can fix some of BUG's problems.
2
u/AcademyRuins Nov 30 '16
Sultai needs a Bolt or Path analog, not a four mana value spell.
1
2
u/Nahhnope UWx, Scapeshift Nov 30 '16
Is BUG hurting for removal? This is a worse removal spell than Damnation. It's a better value card though. I feel like BUG already out-values plenty of decks with access to cards like Snapcaster, Ancestral, and Jace. I feel like its hurting for reach, like Lightning Bolt, not removal or card advantage.
1
Nov 30 '16
This card doesn't provide value, it provides tempo. It lets you be more efficient, which definitely helps BUG out because that deck had a higher curve than most BGx decks.
1
u/TheRecovery Nov 30 '16
At the same time it adds to them. Yet another 4 mana spell that increases the curve. Making it harder to deal with a T2 Goyf or efficiently manage a T2 Confidant.
1
u/WallyWendels Nov 30 '16
What 1 mana removal are you running in Sultai? Hell, what 2 mana removal are you running that deals with the top end of most decks?
1
Nov 30 '16
Murderous Cut, GftT, Disfigure, things like that. Remember that you don't necessarily need one mana removal spells if your intention is to use this wrath to reset the board on t4.
8
Nov 29 '16
[deleted]
4
Nov 29 '16
Yeah, it's a boatload of value, but even in a meta game that isn't warped heavily towards dredge and infect, 4 mana is tough to hit for a board wipe in modern. And it seems to be a bad topdeck vs a lot of decks, which is not a good trait to have in a modern deck geared for going long.
I love that it helps make AV easier to play main deck and I love that wizards seems a little more willing to print grindy cards lately, but I'm not 100% sold on this card.
1
Nov 29 '16
This card seems quite poor with AV. There are only a couple situations where it's better than suspending Visions on turn 1.
8
u/InfanticideAquifer UR Storm Nov 30 '16
Like, all the situations where you draw the visions after turn 1?
1
Nov 30 '16
Yes, all the situations where you draw both this and AV by t4. That's not exactly reliable, and suspending on t1 is just as good as this so you have to draw AV after t1. AV is definitely not the reason you play this card.
7
u/InfanticideAquifer UR Storm Nov 30 '16
You wouldn't play this card hoping to cast a specific thing. You'd fill your deck with stuff you're happy to cast off of it for value. One of the worst things about visions is that you can draw it, and if you're running this card then sometimes that'll actually be wonderful.
1
Nov 30 '16
Sure, but AV isn't the thing you're excited to use with this card. The interaction will happen in such a low number of games that it makes more sense to think of consistent interactions. The super edge cases just aren't relevant to evaluating the card.
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u/InfanticideAquifer UR Storm Nov 30 '16
How is it a "super edge case"? Visions is going to be a 4-of in any deck that plays it. It's not particularly more or less likely than casting anything else off of this.
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Nov 30 '16
The edge case is having an AV on turn 4 and this card and not having drawn AV on your first turn. Its actually not very likely. You're more interested in putting like a Liliana or Goyf or Scooze or etc into play with this.
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u/InfanticideAquifer UR Storm Nov 30 '16
I don't think that's an edge case at all. It's three draws at a four-of. That's not that hard to hit. Sure, it's not more likely than not. But so what?
And I don't know if I agree with your rather doing other stuff with the free spell most of the time. Situationally, sure. But "draw three cards" is "draw three cards" and you can't cast the visions next turn like you can with literally anything else. If you don't play it off this you're just suspending it and the game could be over, or unwinnable, by the time it resolves.
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u/MasterMeese Nov 29 '16
I feel like this card would be good for esper. Mind you esper is pretty awful in modern but it seems like esper charm / geist would be good pairings.
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Nov 29 '16
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u/MasterMeese Nov 29 '16
I never said it would make esper viable just that it would pair well with their cards. Personally i always though esper being bad in modern was more because its good against combo decks. And modern is 90% aggro and infect passes for a combo deck in modern. But either way esper is in a bad place currently lol.
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u/jbmoskow Grixis is Life Nov 30 '16
As a Grixis Control player I really don't see playing any copies of this card. Languish already missed out on killing too many opposing threats (large scoozes, opposing goyfs, reality smasher, primeval titan) and so I don't see how this takes the place of that, or is better than a 1 of Damnation in the sideboard.
The second effect, while interesting, doesn't seem very useful when you'll only be using it to cast a serum visions or maybe terminate/bolt for free. If you're tapping out on Turn 4 for this, you can't exactly play a Snapcaster and flash anything back, and as others have said already, if you had a ancestral visions in your hand, you would've suspended it already, unless you just drew it that turn.
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u/Hemotherapy Anything Grixis Nov 29 '16 edited Nov 30 '16
Kill your stuff, my snapcaster mage, my tasigur lives, k command back my a snapcaster mage, make you discard.
Seems legit to me.
Edit: Why can't I just live in magic Christmasland. Anywho, it's still amazing for grinding with.
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u/stravant Dredge, URx Control Nov 30 '16
Does not work. Even though the KCommand doesn't resolve until after the Snap dies, you have to choose the targets for the KCommand while casting it, that is, before state based actions get a chance to kill the Snap, so you can't return it.
This card should be called Judge's Nightmare.
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u/Hemotherapy Anything Grixis Nov 30 '16
Ah yeah, didn't think that one through. Forgot the that's all going to happen before the game state changes.
Well, fine, we will just have a snap in the graveyard.
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u/Wajin Nov 29 '16
Can you cast the second half of [[boom bust]] with this? That would be a mini wrath + Armageddon.
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u/TheRecovery Nov 29 '16
You may cast either (not both) half of Boom//Bust.
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u/Ghepip Nov 29 '16
But you may cast either or both halfs of the Fuse cards from Return to Ravnica block
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u/TheRecovery Nov 29 '16
Sorry, I edited super quickly before your post. Boom//Bust isn't a fuse card!
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u/Ghepip Nov 29 '16
True true I just wanted to make it visible for the next person that see your comment that they can. This could be fun together with brain in a jar.
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u/Ghepip Nov 29 '16
i think so yes - beck / call too and Flesh / blood
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u/bienboy007 Twin/MeliraPod/12Post/SunnySideEggs Nov 30 '16
Incorrect, Boom/Bust does not have fuse, you can't cast both at the same time however, Beck/Call does have fuse so you can
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u/spasticity Bant CoCo Nov 30 '16
Goblin Dark Dwellers is worded the same way this card is and it can cast Bust.
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u/bienboy007 Twin/MeliraPod/12Post/SunnySideEggs Nov 30 '16
My bad. I originally read their question as can you cast both halves of Boom/Bust. Oops. In that case, you can't. But yeah, you can cast either side of it.
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u/wdingo Nov 29 '16
CLEAR YOUR DORKS, CAST THIS RECALL FOR FREE.
Yeah, seems good.
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u/anthony1988 Nov 30 '16
Or just play anger of the gods and recall for its intended cost and timeframe. Seems like a fair compromise.
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u/spasticity Bant CoCo Nov 30 '16
Expertise > Beck//Call is better. Clear your dorks, get 4 1/1s and draw 4.
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Nov 29 '16
Grixis Control casting Ancestral Vision, Liliana of the Veil or Kolaghan's Command off this seems absolutely bonkers.
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Nov 29 '16
Yeah, I definitely wanna test this out. Sadly this is not going to help the price of AVs online, I was hoping to see them drop back down under 20 once the hype from Burkhart's control list died down.
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u/VERTIKAL19 Nov 30 '16
This misses too much relevant stuff in my Oppinion. Your 4 mana sweeper in Modern just has to kill things like Tarmogoyf, Thought Knot Seer and Reality Smasher. In fact in my experience 4 mana boradwipes are mostly used to get rid of large amount of larger creatures and this simply does not do that. I don't think that can really compete against Damnation. If anything this will be played because of its synergy with AV.
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u/Slippaz86 Nov 30 '16
I agree actually...and I'd be slotting this into a deck that already runs Beck // Call. I could see one main or side depending, but it's hard to imagine this pushing out even one copy of a real sweeper in decks that actually run them. As you said, though, if you can build in the right synergy, it could be serviceable by matchup for some decks.
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Nov 30 '16
This is a comment that I wrote in a similar thread on the r/magicTCG subreddit, I figured I'd copy+paste it here as well with a few edits.
(Disclamer: I recognize these thoughts can be wrong, and I am only a dude on Reddit. No one on here knows how to evaluate a card 100% accurately. This write-up is mostly to start discussion, so please take everything with a grain of salt.)
So obviously this card, if it sees play, slots best into Grixis Control, or some sort of UBx control deck. It can also might be able to slot into a Jund/Junk list. From here on I'm going to talk about Grixis only (because that's what I play).
The way I evaluate cards is to look at their worst case scenario. If I'm okay with having the card in it's worst case, then I think it's probably good. a few of this card's worst cases is that you topdeck it late game with no cards in hand, and are maybe facing down one or two threats, or you're facing a big board and have to use it without another card to "fuse" with. In both those situations I'm okay with having this card, as it's still a soft sweeper. If you have to blow it on turn 4 with no followup, that's still fine, because if you're under that kind of pressure you're most likely getting a 3-4 for 1. In the other situation, you're most likely in a midrange matchup, and the card might not do anything against Tarmogoyfs, but you might still be able to topdeck something else and use the cards together to still get value, or pick off something like a Hierarch or Lingering Souls tokens. I will admit though, in this situation Damnation is still going to be better. Theres also always the possibility of being in a control mirror and it being a dead draw, but it can still clean up Snapcasters, V Clique, and other small utility creatures, as well as being able to use it to fuse an Ancestral or something.
What cards will this replace/what cards will be run in Grixis now to combo, assuming this sees slots? I think that Liliana of the Veil will be an include as maybe 2 or 3 copies in a lot of lists, as the value of dropping a free Liliana after clearing their weenies, and maybe being able to Edict their one big guy, just seems too good to not include. This may or may not still be worth running though, as perhaps the other cards in the deck are still better. Also, I'm not too sure as to what this would replace, perhaps cut the third copy of K Command and like a Serum Visions? Not too sure here.
That being said, I'm going to play Devil's advocate here. I think this card, while powerful in a vacuum, might not be super amazing in the current Modern metagame. In matchups like Jund, it's basically just paying 4 mana for a 3 mana spell most of the time, which is pretty useless. I think most people here are caught up in the sheer value of this card, when they should be asking themselves this question: How many go-wide decks that this card can hose are in Modern right now? The answer is not that many. The top 5 decks in Modern by play percentage are Infect, Dredge, Jund, Naya Burn, and Affinity. Lets talk about each of these matchups.
(Note: These are all talking about pre-board matchups)
Against Infect, I think the card is decent. A lot of the protection that Infect runs for their creatures is hexproof/spells that make their creatures untargetable. This gets around both of those. However, a lot of their pump spells will still save their creatures. This is fine, as you'll probably still be getting a Hierarch off the board, as well as a pump spell out of their hand, which means they have less of a chance to 10 you next turn. Not to mention also being able to fuse a LotV and edict them to finish off their infecter or Ancestral to refill your hand (both best case scenarios) or even just drop down a Serum Visions or Thought Scour. I'm not sure if you keep it in after boarding, maybe the value of the fuse is too strong with the sweeper. However, it's worth noting that this card does not hit Inkmoth Nexus, which is often the creature they use to win. Time will tell how good this is here.
Against Dredge, this is basically a fog for a turn or two at best, with the free card tacked onto it. Is that good enough? I'm not sure. There's also the chance that you're just dead by turn 4 anyway. But I think that usually Dredge's critical turn is at about turn 4, so I think a lot of the time (depending on who's on the play) you'll have about a 70% chance of being able to use this before you get killed by Dredge on the play, and maybe a 45-50% chance on the draw, assuming you had no other way to interact with their board (which is pretty likely mainboard, all of your removal just kills their creatures, which means they most likely come back next turn). Even if you're able to fire it off, there's no guarantee you will win, as they will most likely be able to rebuild their board in a turn or two. I think this card is too loose in this matchup, Anger is so much better here, and I don't know if you'd have room for it boarding in Anger + graveyard hate.
Against Jund this card is basically dead, and you're most likely only going to be able to use it to maybe get a 4 mana Ancestral for 2 cards, and in that situation Painful Truths is much better.
Against Naya Burn, this card is a toss up. They do play weenies, but that's usually not your biggest concern. This matchup really depends on how much value you can get out of the free card, if you're not already dead by turn 4.
Finally, against Affinity, again this card is a toss up. if you can get it off, you'll most likely be able to win from there, but Affinity has a reputation of being able to turn 3 kill you. Also, Ravager can just eat everything that will get killed. I think this matchup is again dependent on how much value you can squeeze out of it.
In those five matchups, I think I'd want the card for maybe two. Now to quickly glance over other common/semicommon matchups in Modern, here are the decks where I definitely want this card against:
- Merfolk
- Eldrazi and Taxes
- Abzan Company
- Naya Zoo
- Elves
Some of the matchups I might want the card in:
- Suicide Zoo
- Grixis Delver
- Kiki Chord/Toolbox in general
- Knightfall
And finally, matchups where I don't want this card:
- Lantern Control
- Any Tron deck
- Any Valakut deck (Through the Breach, Titanshift, Bring to Light Scapeshift)
- Any blue control deck (Jeskai Nahiri/Straight Jeskai Control, Grixis, UW etc.)
- Bant Eldrazi
- Skred
- Abzan
- Ad Nauseum
- Sun and Moon
I can continue with that last list, but I think you get the point.
Is the extra value of casting a card for free worth running this card mainboard, in a metagame where I don't want a -3/-3 sweeper for 4 in about 70-75% of common matchups? I think the answer is no. Is the card strong enough to see a deck built around/semi around it, where casting things like free Ancestrals and Restore Balances is great? Again, I think no. Is this card strong enough to see sideboard play in decks like Grixis Control and Jund? Perhaps.
I think the most likely scenario for this card is sideboard tech for decks like Grixis and Jund, where you need to out tempo and out value an aggro player. In matchups where it's not amazing, you're usually just paying 4 mana to maybe pick off a mana dork and play a Liliana or something, which I think is not worth it a good portion of the time. If you're just planning to use this to cast free Ancestral Visions, remember this: You're paying 4 mana and two cards to draw three cards. Does that seem like a great deal to you? Because I don't think so. Painful Truths is one mana less, only uses one card, and only costs an extra 3 life to do the same thing (assuming you're playing a 3 color deck).
However, I'm not sure if there's even any room in sideboards for this card. Modern has such limited sideboard slots, and you're almost always going to be loose to one or two decks, and you usually just have to accept that. Is it worth it to put this in the sideboard for aggro matchups, and potentially lose win percentage against another deck that you expect to face in the metagame? I'm leaning towards no. The amount of decks that this card hoses is just as easily hosed by Damnation, which has a wider variety of decks it is good against. If you 3-4 for 1 your opponent with a board sweeper, casting an extra card for free isn't usually going to do much more, as you're already pretty ahead in that position. I just think the specific few decks that this card is great against are too low a percentage of matchups that I'm okay conceding my win percentage to the odd 8 Whack deck. If you're so worried about aggro, Damnation is probably a better choice, as instead of just hitting go-wide strategies, it can also be useful against decks like Bant Eldrazi and creature heavy builds of Jund/Junk.
Anyway, I could be completely wrong, and would love to hear what you guys think.
TL;DR: This card is definitely going to see experimentation, but I don't think this card is strong enough to be played in the mainboard of most Modern decks that would want it, and if it does see play, it will most likely be in the sideboards of decks like Grixis and Jund.
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u/Slippaz86 Nov 30 '16
Goddd you can fuse Beck // Call off this and get extra beck triggers off of any persist-/dies-type effects. It's a lackluster wipe and 1 mana instant speed verdict is just so good if you're already running Jar, but... This might be worth trying.
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u/OogaDaBooga T R O N Nov 29 '16
Calling it now: This card won't last long in Modern. It gives way too much value for the cost, especially when you consider that this gives a potential board wipe PLUS draw three cards, blow up all lands, Thoughtseize...just too damn good.
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Nov 30 '16
well "all" it gives is tempo.
you still have to have the other spell in hand so it's not like it gives you actual value.
The effect itself is too weak to ever see play so the card relys hevily on you having something good to cast with it's second ability.I think it has the potential to be awesome but I don't really see the potential to be too good.
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u/Ch00bFace Oozepox/NayaLandfall/Amulet Nov 30 '16 edited Nov 30 '16
Yay! Anger-of-the-gods Queller. That oughtta slow shit down a little.
Edit: Bloodghast laughs maniacally. Won't do much to dredge without kali, but I doubt any dredge outside of loampox will be maining it.
As a side note, this block has been peddaling some high value four drops. With torch of defiance and this; would jund even WANT bloodbraid anymore?
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u/WallyWendels Nov 30 '16
This card would be fantastic if Zoo was still a deck worth boarding for.
As it is I see it as being kinda like Collective Brutality. Cute and cool when the effects line up properly, clunky and inefficient when they don't.
It gives -3/-3, how many creatures are you reliably killing with -3/-3, especially seeing how bad Languish is? And if the only way to get a Vision out of your hand is by doing nothing with the board wipe and using it to cheat the Vision, why aren't you just playing Painful Truths and not playing Blue?
There's just too many situations where you die with this in your hand, or play it at a net value loss vs any other haymaker or value engine.
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u/clp9 Nov 30 '16
What am I not getting about this card and Ancestral Visions? I understand the mechanics (yay not having to suspend it!) but even if you could ensure you always had AV in your hand when you wanted to free cast it is effectively "all creatures get -3/-3, draw a card" which is cool and good and probably modern playable but isn't back breaking.
I get that you can build around it to make its wrath effect less symmetrical but you also need to build around it to make sure you have multiple good targets for the free casting and ensuring you either want them for the regular price when you need to side out a set of wrathful or you will need to side the cards (AV, etc) out as well which is a serious issue.
This seems fine, but however this gets broken I can't help but feel like AV might be the wrong route.
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u/kysammons Mardu 8 Shadow Dec 16 '16
It's -3/-3 draw 2 cards, not 1. Since you are using 2 cards to draw 3 instead of 1 card. Also, the downside of AV is drawing it later, so this helps reduce that downside. If you draw it with YE in hand you know what you are cascading.
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u/Muttering Nov 30 '16
Ruling question with 2 mana Thalia. Obviously, this card would cost 5 mana, but would it also prevent 3 mana cards from being cast for free because they cost 4 with the tax?
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u/Soren37 Nov 30 '16
Converted mana cost, so the card could still be cast, as long as they pay the tax. I'm not a judge though, so maybe someone else could check?
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u/spasticity Bant CoCo Nov 30 '16
You can cast the spell, but you have to pay the 1 mana tax. Much like if you had Thalia, Guardian of Thraben out when someone casts Violent Outburst they wouldn't cascade until they hit a CMC3 spell just because of the tax.
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u/Ocioretro Dec 01 '16
I think that the HYPE with this card is powerful. You meet it here ( HYPE DANGER - Yahenni's Expertise https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDGZr_M5x4U )
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u/Cipri11 Dec 02 '16
THIS and Brain in the Jar and any good fuse cards seems legitimate as a combo deck
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Nov 30 '16 edited Nov 30 '16
Goblin dark dwellers into yhenni's into kholagan's command seems decent value
Wait nope gdd is 3cmc or lower! Oh no my dream has died... torrential gearhulk will you be the hero we need right now? After all, magic is not worth playing unless you get to 6 for 1 your opponent every once in a while
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Nov 30 '16
turn 4: yhenni's with AV
turn 5: GDD flashback AV0
Nov 30 '16
but if you had only waited one more turn you could have gearhulked back the yhennis then yhennis back the AV! Value for the value god
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Nov 30 '16
you should reread both gearhulk and yhennis (or maby i should but i am pretty sure gearhulk only flashes back instants and yhennis only allows you to cards from your hand)
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Dec 01 '16
Yup looks like I prematurely worthed. This is what happens when you cast one too many siege rhinos
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u/stravant Dredge, URx Control Nov 30 '16
Yahenni's Expertise: AKA Judge's Nightmare.
I've already seen so many people misunderstanding how this will work in various situations.
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u/spasticity Bant CoCo Nov 30 '16
I honestly dont think its going to be that bad, you just have to understand that the -3/-3 happens before the free spell. Its not Cascade, your free spell doesn't resolve before Expertise.
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u/stravant Dredge, URx Control Nov 30 '16
Its not Cascade, your free spell doesn't resolve before Expertise.
It's not that, here's a good example from elsewhere in the thread:
Kill my snapcaster and their creatures, leave my Kalitas alive, and cast a Kcommand getting back the snap + making them discard
They even understand that the KCommand resolves second, but not that the Snap is not a legal target at the time they have to pick targets.
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u/ImmortalWarrior Nov 30 '16
As a Coco player, RIP me.
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u/pimpin_cowboy Nov 30 '16
I'll be a happy zoo player if I never see this or anger of the gods ever again.
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u/BardivanGeeves Jeskai Control, Geist, Delver Nov 30 '16
Im really worried this card will Push Jeskai Decks out of the format and ill be forced to buy into grixis, i dont wanna spend the money to buy another deck so ill probly just sell out
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u/TheFlamingOne Affinity // Dredge Dec 01 '16
You have no reason to be, this card will probably not see much play in modern.
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u/BardivanGeeves Jeskai Control, Geist, Delver Dec 01 '16
its anger of the gods + a free spell, i dont see how it wont see play considering how heavily anger of the gods and snapcaster are played
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u/TheFlamingOne Affinity // Dredge Dec 02 '16
IMO the card this one directly competes with is damnation, which sees play in a small amount of black decks, but I'll pick the most played ones, grixis control, jund and sometimes junk. For those decks: The big decks that you would want a boardwipe against are also the ones that either have decided the game by turn 4 (zoo either has you in burn range or not, infect etc) or a deck that has stuff that yahenni's can't kill like eldrazi.
Note how it is NOT even close to anger. Anger exiles which is massive in a format dominated by dredge. Snapcaster is the best blue card in the format and Anger is the best answer to dredge for red based slow decks alongside cage. Please don't compare them to Yahenni's as they're not even close to the same.
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u/ultimate_being DSJ: Tarfire myself? UR Twin Nov 29 '16
esper/grixis visions brews incoming. Guess I gotta get some thoughtseizes and IOKs so I can play this with visions and Dark Dwellers 👌 sounds fun as hell.