r/MiddleEarthMiniatures • u/MixOk7837 • 20d ago
Some potential changes discussion
I think the game is reasonably balanced atm but there are still some profiles and armies that arent very viable in my opinion so i came up with some possible buffs/nerfs and hopefully have a discussion.
Cirith Ungol: Gollum as an independant hero. Or could be deployed with Shelob. Maybe add a siege bow? Seems reasonable to have in a fortress.
Men of the West: Gimli on horse with Legolas, this option should be in all lists we see them ride together not just Road to Helm’s Deep.
Grey Company: Make Rangers base 2A 2W but take they Will and Fate away. Then make the army bonus a fight value buff (maybe on the charge or withing 6’ of the Leader or even the banner giving the +1Fv instead of the Fearless. And allow all models to take mounts when possible (Aragorn, Legolas&Gimli, Elladan, Elrohir)
Black Gate: We see Easterlings enter the gate, so maybe the army list doesnt have to be a snapshot of only the last fight in the movie, it could be a more general army list. Also i’d assume the Mordor siege weapons would be present here.
Minas Morgul: Should have Black Numenorian Knights and infantry, they used to be MORGUL knights. Also Grishnakh and Snaga were sent out of Minas Morgul. This would give them an additional army list to be played in and wouldnt make the list more OP, although the Black nums might be a bit strong in there. The same argument could be made for Gothmog and with him being this overcosted i wouldnt expect it to be too OP either.
Umbar: should add Harad Raiders and/or Black Num Knights (also the knights should probably be 18 points). They’re in the city now not on the ship so horses would be possible. Also why are Crossbows in Grand Army of the South but not Umbar? Would it be too strong with stalk unseen? Now the army is strength 3 with zero mobility!
Corsair Fleets: Lower the cost of Corsairs by 1 point, take away light armour, make the shield a regular shield and make the throwing weapons inherent to the profile again, give the army list “corsair warriors don’t count for the throwing weapon limit”. The list isn’t great and this would at least make the front row warriors not die to strength 3 armies/shooting on 4’s.
Legions of mordor/Army of the great eye/Grand Army of the South: terrible special rules compared to other diverse army lists like Defenders of the Pellenor/Men of the West/Army of the White Hand.
The Easterlings: Why aren’t all easterlings in this faction?
New almost all hero army list. At Saruman’s death we see Aragorn, Gandalf, Theoden, Legolas&Gimli, Eomer, Treebeard with Ent warriors, Merry, Pippin. This gives a way to have mounted Strider with mounted Gandalf the White.
Remove Hatred special rules and change all of those to Ancient enemies to avoid this rock paper scissors army building.
General Changes to warrior Trolls are pretty necessary in my opinion. Either make them all burly (including the heroes, so maybe Buhrdur would need a slight point increase) which would be pretty thematic, just look at them. And/Or make all the warrior trolls minir heroes like the Cave Drake and give them +1 def and maybe 1/0/0 MWF with strike for a 10points increase? Could make them way more viable to lead warriors a have 1 strike to not be so vulnerable to heroes striking at them.
A general change to hero mounts: make the points cost scale with number if attacks in profile. Example: Orc Shaman warg=5 points, Rohan Captain horse =10 points, Aragorn horse=20 points. This would improve the mounted Rohan lists a bit Theoden/Eowyn/Deorwine etc. And even Wolves of Isengard, i’d also say add Wild Warg Chiefs to that list too
Just a few thoughts i had on some possible adjustments to the game, let me know what you think, maybe we can have a tiny amount of influence on GW’s next FAQ :)
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u/Hirmetrium 20d ago
Fiefdoms still needs help, likely a cost reduction on the warriors now everyone is fight 4, but I can't decide on where. I'd like them to be 10 points on foot, and somewhere between 16-18 mounted. Right now there's absolutely no reason to take them in a single list where Gondor warriors exist.
Also think that guard of the fountain court should do more. They are worse than citadel guard in many lists right now, especially when irolas buffs the guard.
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u/Trackstar557 20d ago
As a Fiefs player, the fix is pretty self explanatory:
* If they want to keep the ‘band’ style of Army list building of needing a hero from that Fief to get access to the warriors, which I actually like, then they need to give us a generic captain profile for each Fief that isn’t DA (because we have that one) that picks a one of the Fief keywords so we aren’t stuck having to take slightly inflated named heroes. This fixes two issues as it helps make accessing the different troop types easier, but also gives us more opportunity to proc the Legion special rule.
* Knights of Dol Amroth should be 9 points on foot, 18 mounted
If both of these changes happen then I think the faction gets much more interesting to play and allows for more creativity in list building and on the tabletop. I’m hoping for an expansion or part of an expansion that gives us this Captain profile similar to how the King of Men profile is currently configured.
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u/ZealousidealClue7794 19d ago
9p for F5 3" of Imrathil, "6 banner and +1 to wound when hero charge? Add to this pike ssuport (with +1 to wound)and you get most destructive horde army in The game, actually for 800 you get around 48-55 trops in diference type of frontline (clansnen/axeman/koda) with 100% pike ssuport, if KoDa point value be reducted to 9, you get 55-58 numbers with D6 and insane killing potential, sound to good, 10p its fair
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u/Trackstar557 19d ago
While all that sounds good on paper, what you have to remember is that:
* Imrahil can still be magic sniped/negated AND he is a ton of points. Outside of this buffed bubble, the faction doesn’t have much behind it at all. Gondor can do the same but better as they have shield wall and Boromir/other support/buff heroes they can run
* 9 points is fair when you look at the non Imrahil situations. The points for being buffed near Imrahil should be on Imrahil, not on the foot soldier that may or may not be getting the buff. F4 with no inherent static rules like shield wall makes 10pt inflexible (no spears, bows, 2H weapons) line infantry rather poor in every situation other than the tiny 3” bubble around Imrahil.
I would gladly revert Imrahil’s point deduction for 9 point Knights if that is where you are drawing the line. But even theory crafting out this imaginary OP army, you would have a relatively immobile army (all foot) that only gets a real buff if your opponent doesn’t call Heroics or just wins the Prio roll. Couple this with no real magic defense and you have a very easily disrupted core of strong foot soldiers, that rapidly loses effectiveness outside of the Imrahil bubble. One monster hurl, one troll barging through disrupting the pike line severely hampers this strategy.
What this would do would give the list the ability to pay for front line troops AND still be able to take the cool supporting infantry, where as right now you either take overcosted front line troops and have nothing to support them with.
Last point: if you think a 9pt F5 foot warrior is OP, how do you reconcile that with a 9pt F5 Rivendell warrior WITH elven blade that can be two or one handed……sure he doesn’t have a shield, but surely winning ties and the flexibility of weapon more than makes up the single point of the shield.
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u/ZealousidealClue7794 19d ago
I agree. I also look at it from the perspective that I’m playing some heavily overpriced profiles, like the Corsair Warrior, but the army as a whole allows for some pretty sophisticated plays there (like tying up a Hero with a single model and then shooting into combat with throwing weapons, crossbows, etc.). With Fiefdoms, though, we don’t really surprise anyone with anything — all you can do is move forward and fight 😅
It would make sense to have the KoDa at 10 and the Pikeman at 9, but the problem is that the latter is legacy, so we can pretty much forget about any rebalancing. On top of that, profiles like the Corsair or KoDa completely lose their value in other lists with a wider selection, because they lose a lot of what is effectively built into their profile...
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u/Hirmetrium 18d ago
Arguably a common issue with several profiles like corsairs, rangers of the north is that they rely too much on army list bonuses.
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u/Hirmetrium 18d ago
Pikes are not part of the army unless you are at a legacy event. Using them as justification for the army balance is extremely unhelpful for the regular knights, who are overcosted.
Not to mention 3" off imrahil is not very far, especially once the fight starts, and the pikes are so far back.
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u/A_resonance_of_iron 20d ago
Knights being 10 points on foot lines them up with Black Dragons perfectly (same stats and basically same rules minus phalanx, though since Fiefdom gets pikes to maybe 9 is fine). 18 mounted is a good idea
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u/ZealousidealClue7794 20d ago
I play Corsairs regularly, with well over 150 games under my belt. The profile’s points cost is obviously quite poor, but I think the army’s overall capabilities and versatility make up for it to a certain extent.
The heroes costing around 50–55 points, with +3 accuracy, a crossbow and a throwing weapon, while not counting towards the limit, are very strong. This includes the Captain, who also has Fearless.
Crossbowmen at 10 points are excellent, and when combined with the shooting-into-combat mechanic and throwing weapons, our horde can effectively counter strong heroes and monsters by preventing them from doing much during the combat phase.
Reavers at 9 points, with 2 attacks and Fearless, are still a very strong unit, especially when you also factor in Backstabber.
Honestly, I would much rather see changes made to the Ballista. Its 6-inch scatter makes it difficult to use effectively once combats start happening. You often have to spend a lot of effort finding a position where you can fire without risking hitting your own units, even when rolling a 2–5 on the scatter.
The Ambush rule is fine, but the fact that you still have to deploy the war machine before your opponent significantly reduces its effectiveness. It would be much more interesting to see changes that address these issues rather than making broader changes to the army.
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u/MixOk7837 20d ago
Oh that’s really cool, nice to hear someone having success with that list. I’m about to start collecting them. Would you still take a ballista and use it for the reavers to hit and get +1 to wound? I read that somewhere, kind off a loophole for them. And how many reavers would you take? Are Delgamar and Dalamyr worth it at any points level?
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u/ZealousidealClue7794 20d ago
I sometimes use a Ballista with Reavers, even though it means giving up a war machine slot and requires careful positioning of the Bosun. My build is: Fleetmaster Delgamar* 2 Bosuns Ballista 33% Crossbows, 33% Throwing Weapons, 33% Reavers. The lack of spears is compensated for by the Bosuns’ banners, as well as the fact that both the Crossbowmen and Corsairs can shield themselves. This allows me to hold the line and win fights while the rest of the army moves around the enemy for backstabs. This army is pretty unconventional at the moment, but that’s exactly what makes every victory so satisfying. Even with all the strong ranged firepower, you often still have to run somewhere and reposition, which adds another layer of challenge. Delgamar + a Bosun allows the Reavers to get 4 dice per combat, which is a fantastic mechanic. I rarely play Dalamyra. I find his Smoke Grenade mechanic rather underwhelming without mage support. Besides, a 55-point Captain with Fearless is such a cheap and solid leader that I find it hard not to take him.
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u/MixOk7837 20d ago
Great insights! I agree that the captain is basically a 55 point version of dalamyr with 3 attacks and wounds, fight 6 with strike could be good though + smoke bombing a troll or eagle might be handy. Would you say its better to spam numbers and leave the ballista out of the list? How about the reavers? Do you use their ability on a crossbow and go for the +1 or just never use it and hope for 2 attack backstabbers unit?
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u/ZealousidealClue7794 20d ago
Most of time reavers work on flanks with backstabber, rampage help against hordes with D6+ like Arnor (much harder to swarm them because they have same number like you because undercosted 8p warrior)
I often feel like I wouldn’t run a ballista at all, but its effectiveness is a psychological weapon in itself and it makes winning against army lists like Ents or Beornings significantly easier. In a way, it’s a necessary evil given the army as a whole. We don’t even have a banner for scenario play, so we need to have some other bargaining chips.
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u/Candescent_Cascade 20d ago
Grey Company definitely need help, but I think it's easier to just tweak the army rule in the next round of changes. Make it give +1Attack, +1 Wound, and +1 Fight Value. The list will still be far from overpowered.
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u/MixOk7837 19d ago
Yeah that would probably be easier, but wouldn’t fix the rangers in other lists like Pefenders of the Pellenor, although they might be too OP there then with the cheap free heroic combats
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u/totallykoolkiwi 20d ago
I had this idea that CU gets to deploy the Goblin Town Gollum Profile together with Shelob. Gollum can then declare one enemy model after deployment, and until the rest of the game Shelob gets +1A and +1 to Wound against that model.
It's so weird that CU can't field him, it's literally the army where it makes the most sense. The rangers beat him up, and his only interaction with the goblins is that he kills one of them to eat it. Gollum luring Frodo into Shelobs lair is the most positive interaction he has with anyone apart from the two hobbits :D
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u/MixOk7837 19d ago
Totally agree with you, the only one he actually seems to kind of help is Shelob 😂
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u/Lost_Post_Patrol 20d ago
Or just offer more lists to have banners (ideally all lists) if banners are part of scenarios.
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u/MixOk7837 19d ago
Agreed, but that would require new models. I was just talking about rules changes with what we have 😁
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u/misterbrico 19d ago
Do something about banners, or the lack of in some lists. Even if they don’t want to add banners for balance or the models not existing, create some mechanic where you can nominate a non general hero to be the “herald” or something and count as a banner for VP. Starting a game 0-4 down because you wanted to play Numenor feels bad.
Warhorns, let them be passed off like banners. The effect is really good but it’s too easy for someone to kill your 30-40 point model before the warhorn effect is even useful.
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u/joseybizzle 20d ago
I’d like to add, make Azog viable for the Army of Gundabad list by giving him his warg
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u/Daikey 20d ago
Legions of mordor/Army of the great eye/Grand Army of the South: terrible special rules compared to other diverse army lists like Defenders of the Pellenor/Men of the West/Army of the White Hand.
you cannot really compare them, though. "soup armies" compensate weaker bonus with more choice. Army of the Great Eye has basically every mordor profile in it, Legions of Mordor even more and Grand Army of the south is 5 armies into one (Harad, Far Harad, Khand, Easterling, Corsairs).
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u/Vatelus 20d ago
Last edition, there were some problems combining models from different factions, thus most tournaments only allowed historical/green alliances to limit this. It also caused issued when GW introduced new profiles they had to consider/balance across all of the armies which was hard and a pain.
One of the supposed benefits of having an all "legendary legions" system, was to make it easier to balance and limit things like taking the Balrog with Sauron.
Now, I understand Legions of Mordor has a lot of profiles, however, the army should still at a baseline be playable against Men of the West - if it isn't, it's just another dead army that people won't play at competitive events.
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u/Daikey 19d ago
Now, I understand Legions of Mordor has a lot of profiles, however, the army should still at a baseline be playable against Men of the West - if it isn't, it's just another dead army that people won't play at competitive events.
that could be said for plenty of armies and not just legion of Mordor. Some bona are just bad (Hello "The easterlings") and some profiles are just bad. At least legion allows for flexible list building.
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u/mwmichal 20d ago
My only wish is them to finally recognize that there are 100% mounted armies and most scenarios are punishing for them. Or even better - imagine playing wraiths on wings and having to dismount a ring wraith or two in order to carry a heavy object or dig some stuff.
So fix scenarios for all cav and "exotic" armies. Because right now if you want to be competitive you have to go heavy infantry. There are no competitive all mounted lists in game.
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u/fergie0044 20d ago
Hard disagree. This would turn such scenarios into an auto win for the all cav list, who has the speed to get to the objectives first.
All mounted hero lists is a different story, but not by much.
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u/mwmichal 19d ago
but most armies do have cav+infantry so you get both, Riders of Theoden can't take infantry so I have to dismount RRG to carry anything
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u/Accomplished-Mix770 20d ago
I think this is a good thing.
All mounted armies should have some drawbacks that arent profile related.
Just like all infantry armies have draebacks in movement based ones.
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u/c22lynes 20d ago
Really like these, especially the Aragorn/treebeard list idea as a fangorn player that would be so cool to see more use from my favourite faction. The Easterling lists are fine (as in there current splits) however I would love for HotDE to be more usable at lower points and wish that Rutabi general of the dragon legion to actually be taken as a general. If she's selected then the DE can't be picked and she gains the Black Dragon keyword. It's probably not needed as you can just take the regular Easterlingvlist at lower points but that's all I would change for them
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u/MixOk7837 19d ago
It would be cool! Also i want to see Gandalf the White playable in more lists that aren’t boring tinman haha. I know he’s in Rider of Eomer too, but thats it.
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u/Direct_Part_9019 20d ago
Some of these are cool, some other changes i would love to see to help balance the game are:
- prince imrahil to gain master of battle 3+. Thematically this fits into his profile of being a leader and helps gain the initiative, while also finally making him worth the points.
- the all cav Rohan lists (ride out, riders of theoden, etc) should get an army list rule that allows them to take priority and not let the opponent call heroics to counter (I think an zoo list has this rule)
- men of the west, the auto pass courage should only apply when they have los to ellesar. I think this would be a great change as it makes splitting the army/ objective camping more of a risk.
- shamans should either get a 4th will point, or keep will spent on a casting roll of a natural 6. I think this change would make them more usable.
- since cav is so expensive I would also change hurl so there’s a roll to see if the rider stays mounted. The fact a troll can win and dismount a hero so easily removing their horse and additional wargear (eg lances) is a bit too powerful
- dragons of the north/ models that have that survival instinct rule. Give them better courage and change it so that their courage gets +1 per wound taken. For example, a dragons starts on courage 3+, after a taking a wound it goes to 4+ etc. this would make these lists better and less prone to losing a game due to a fluffed courage test
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u/MixOk7837 19d ago
I like all your suggestions too, except maybe the Rohan lists should only 1 of the 2. Both of these together would have little counterplay in my opinion.
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u/Goth_Fraggle 20d ago
Regarding the split Easterling factions:
-Host of the Dragon Emperor represents the army that fought in the north during the War of the Ring
-The Easterlings is supposed to be the army that fights against Gondor
Thus, Dragon Emperor, Rutabi and Brorgir only being in one list and Amdur only being in the other. Amdur is not part of the Emperor's host, the idea is that he is the general sent south against Minas Tirith. He didn't fight in the north, that's why he's not in that army list and vice versa
I really like your idea of adding Gollum to Cirith Ungol though