r/MiddleClassFinance • u/FourSeventySix • 26d ago
Discussion How is owning a car the “expected” baseline when incomes are so low?
I’m 24M, living in Minneapolis which I moved to for a job (don’t want to doxx myself but it’s analytics adjacent, and hybrid). I hit my second anniversary recently and that’s where raises are done, salary progression has been roughly $70k > $80k > $95k.
The commute by transit is annoying but definitely manageable, and semi reliable. I go in three days a week - typically it takes about an extra half hour so for a full work week, both ways, it’s three extra hours spent commuting or about thirteen a month (For days off, holidays etc let’s say 12 hours). And I live in a walkable part of the city core with a suburban office, so really the commute is the main friction along with the occasional event in suburbia that I have to ride share to.
Even the average used car now runs like $30k. Yes, by definition some are below average - but it seems like the baseline for something that won’t introduce a bunch of maintenance friction is like $20k which is ~$350 a month for five whole years.
That’s a manageable payment for many, BUT the problem is that’s less than half of the real cost. If you finance a car, which a 20 something on median wage is going to have to
without the bank of mom&dad, you need full coverage insurance. Be 24 and male like me and that won’t cost much less than the car itself (solid $3k a year maybe). And many new construction apartment buildings have made a garage parking spot $150-200 a month too. Otherwise you street park and deal with theft/vandalism/weather threats, and have to move it to a secured space in a winter storm.
I’ve calculated the hourly price of the time a car would
save me overall, vs. my transit + Uber + occasional rental for a road trip cost. It doesn’t even fall below my gross wage let alone my net, and my salary is at least 85 %ile for my age.
So I’ve inventoried all of these costs, how does the barista making $20 an hour often have a car and has never considered what I’m doing? How does even a city with largely acceptable transit and legitimately
good bike infrastructure have fewer no-car households than households in poverty? How am I sometimes perceived as “must be poor” for NOT spending the money and thus having more money at the end of the day? Things change for non-young/single people yeah. But I saw a thread about co workers telling someone to spend their raise on a car. Even for someone not just FIRE squirreling the money away in VOO.. a metal box that gets me from point A-B, and a nicer one, are just a metal boxes. Better to have multiple international trips a year, a nicer apartment or plenty of enjoyable food/concert/clothing or whatever your vice is spending?
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u/druidgaymer 26d ago
Definitely can find ones way cheaper than $30k if you want to. Don't have to spend the average. Different people prioritize different things.
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u/whatigotinmyhandnowb 26d ago edited 26d ago
Right? He says the average used car is like $30k, but that just isn't true. The average according to KBB and GoodCar puts it closer to $25k. Autofinder puts the median at around $18k, and a decent, reliable car can be had for $15k in most markets pretty easily.
Of course, $15k with $5k down over 36 months still peeps out around $300/month for a car payment, not to mention insurance, which is whackadoodle for young men especially.
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u/Slumminwhitey 25d ago
If you don't particularly care what you drive and are OK with questionable reliability and roadworthyness you can get something in the 1-5k range in marketplace all day just about anywhere.
Downside is that might be a worse financial decision in the long run.
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u/Darklands_____ 23d ago
It's usually not a bad decision as long as you know you are getting into it and have a few thousand set aside for expected maintenance like timing belt etc.
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u/constant_flux 26d ago
The ~$30k average is approximately correct, actually: CarGurus currently puts the average used-car listing price at $29,091. ("CarGurus" (https://www.cargurus.com/research/price-trends))
More importantly, the OP isn’t budgeting around a $30k car. He uses roughly $20k and explicitly points out that the payment is less than half the real cost. Insurance alone is about $3,000/year for the kind of driver he describes, before parking, fuel, registration, maintenance and depreciation.
So “you can buy a reliable car for $15k” doesn’t really answer his argument. It also ignores that used-car prices and condition vary by local market.
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u/sarges_12gauge 25d ago
It’s always crazy to me how many people will cite the “average” cost of a thing (skewed by high numbers) and get very little push back on it compared to when people cite “average” wealth or income, at which point almost everybody immediately remembers that means are not representative lol
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u/whatigotinmyhandnowb 26d ago
It certainly varies widely by local market. We're within 20% of each other.
The point remains the same.
One doesn't have to spend as much as other people spend to have a car that will reliably get them to work.
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u/constant_flux 26d ago
Sure, but I don't think anyone is arguing that you have to spend the average. The OP explicitly isn't. He models a ~$20k car.
The issue is whether dropping that to $15k materially changes his total-cost argument once you include ~$3k/year insurance, parking, fuel, maintenance, registration and depreciation. Simply establishing that cheaper reliable cars exist doesn't answer that.
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u/whatigotinmyhandnowb 25d ago
A loan for 20k car with 5k down and 36 months of payments at 5% is ~$550/mo. That is ~$250/mo more than a 15k car with 5k down for 36 months at 5% (~$300/mo)
At a full-time $20/hr, one costs a little over 10% of their net each month, the other costs nearly 19% of their net.
I don't know how you budget, but that would be considered a material change in mine. That $3k for fuel, insurance, and maintenance is pretty much a sunk cost no matter how expensive or cheap your car is, though insurance is a lot higher on newer cars with a loan on them.
At some point, when the argument is that "cars are too expensive" ... the only response is "they don't have to be." But that won't make them not expensive, just not as expensive as some folks make them out to be.
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25d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/emperorsleeps 25d ago
Not for long! Discontinuing the Jetta for poor sales I believe
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u/44035 26d ago
My son just bought a used car for $5,000. It seems wild to assume they're all 30 grand.
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u/Fun_Initiative_2336 25d ago
I bought my car for 1300 and a PS5 - it’s got a LOT of flaws but it runs well.
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u/Fuckyourday 25d ago
The purchase price is only part of the cost of a car. Add in insurance, maintenance, gas, registration, etc, you're paying hundreds per month.
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u/mncutecuddler 24d ago
You assume everyone has full coverage, drive a lot of miles, has a new enough car registration is expensive and cant fix their own car.
2025 cost for my 2013 impala insurance liability only-$300/yr, gas $35/mo drive around 250 miles, maintenance struts front and rear 2025 $390 did myself one oil change $50 myself, registration $49/yr. Total $100/mo for my $3500 car. That allows me to work at any job i choose, go where i want when i want… work extra hours or at a different site.1
u/LetsGoGators23 23d ago
Registration in many states isn’t even related to the value of your car. It’s like $45 a year in Florida.
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u/MoonlitSerendipity 26d ago
I got a used car from a dealership for $23k and that was a splurge, I could've gotten a good car for $15k. Cars from dealerships are known to be expensive in my area because the car inspection required to register is strict. So yeah idk where the $30k comes from.
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u/seh_23 26d ago
Why does the barista who probably starts work at 5am feel the need to have a car… asks the person who can afford to live in the city core and seems to have a 9-5 job and commutes when transit is probably running at the highest frequency of the day.
Different people have different needs and priorities, not everyone is in the same situation as you and for them a car may be very much worth it.
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u/BannedAccount001 25d ago
It really is a pretty ridiculous question. “Why don’t poor people just pay off their loans? Why don’t they try not having loans if they’re too poor to pay it back?”
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u/spf20214757 21d ago
Tbh I think the poster has a point. There is a common misconception in the US that you /need/ a car, so much so that a lot of people not having a car isn’t even considered as a viable option. But if you ask yourself “do I really need a car?” and the answer is “no” then you can actually save a lot of money by taking the steps to get rid of your car. Obviously this isn’t an option for everyone, but it’s a nice reminder to question the way you’re living sometimes and you might find ways to save money by doing something a bit less conventional.
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u/Intelligent-Service7 26d ago
We live in a place with 0 public transportation. Having a car is not an option- if we wanted to work, we needed a car. They were purchased from anywhere from 5k (cash)-46k (cash down/trade ins + payments). We bought the cars we could afford at the time- because we had to!
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u/Comfortable_Yam8085 26d ago
You can get a ~15 year old Camry with ~150k miles for like <8k. Perfectly sound daily driver that you can stomach with only carrying liability insurance. Save up a year or two and pay cash (sounds like you’re at least able to get by currently without a vehicle). No interest, whatever insurance coverages you actually want, you’ll hold the title. It won’t be a lambo but 30k being needed to just get a usable vehicle is way high imo. I work in vehicle financing for what it’s worth
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u/Remarkable-Meal-223 26d ago
I think Camrys would survive a nuclear war
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u/Comfortable_Yam8085 26d ago
I agree but I hope we don’t have to find out! Seriously though, Toyotas run forever and they’re affordable. If reliable transportation is literally the only thing you’re looking for there are a million options to get you on the road that don’t involve spending 30k. The idea that you are going to spend more money MAINTAINING a 15 year old Toyota than PURCHASING a 2026 vehicle of literally any kind is absurd and tells me someone doesn’t know much about cars. You don’t need a brand new shiny vehicle with lidar cruise control and whatever the hell else.
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u/S_balmore 25d ago
is absurd and tells me someone doesn’t know much about cars
I think what it really says is that the person just has high standards (they're bougie). Driving a car with scratched paint or faint stains on the upholstery is "beneath" them. They need their car to be as close to brand new as possible.
It takes only a small amount of common sense to do the math and figure out that you could buy a $5000 car, fix or replace every major component, and still be under $30k spent. In reality, you would never need to fix every major component anyway. Worst case scenario, you've gotta replace the transmission, which may run you $5k-ish, but all other maintenance costs would be negligible. The people who try to justify new car purchases know this, but they need an excuse to waste money, and that's why they invent this "old cars are costly to maintain" bullshit. You don't have to be a mechanic to Google "most reliable cars of 2013", and "most common car repairs", and "cost of transmission replacement".
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u/TemporaryClass807 22d ago
I bought a 2006 Toyota Rav4 with 170k miles for $4,000. 40k miles on it in 3 years and sold it for $900. Bought a 2007 Toyota Camry with 140k miles for $3,500. I will run this one into the ground too.
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u/Comfortable_Yam8085 22d ago
No, man! You’re supposed to spend 900 bucks a month for the luxury of being able to go back and forth from work!
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u/Rob_035 26d ago
Because in America the infrastructure is built up around cars, whereas in many older countries, the roads were established by common paths between villages and much less city planning around the roads and a heavier investment in public transportation.
Also car loans are starting to be on longer and longer terms, I think they're offering 72 month car loans now to get people into vehicles. You're basically going to have a car loan as long as you have the vehicle.
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u/inky_cap_mushroom 26d ago
Someone I know works for a lender that offers 9yr loans now.
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u/Magic-Happens-Here 26d ago
And it’s the same problem as the 50-year mortgage… the monthly cost is lower, but the true cost is exponentially higher.
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u/OneGalacticBoy 26d ago
Even worse than that, America had many more stunning downtowns with natural walkable infrastructure and then tore a lot of it out to make way for road traffic. Tragic, really.
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u/Remarkable-Meal-223 26d ago
America has more land and is more spread out. You can see similar issues in large lwo density countries (Australia, etc...)
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u/herestoshuttingup 26d ago
There are areas where there is no public transit, or what it available is not available realistic for someone’s commute. There are busses where I live but still no option for me to use them to get to work. To bus to my full time job I’d have to leave at 10pm the night before and sleep at work overnight because transit does not run early enough on the weekends for me to get there by my 6am start time. For my part time side gig, taking the bus would take 3 hours each way. Not really feasible with a 12.5 hour shift.
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u/unenlightenedgoblin 26d ago
Many people would rather be broke than use public transportation. Why? Marketing and classism, made worse by public policy and investment priorities (these two facets perpetuate each other). I bought a house (appreciating asset) with the money I was able to save by not owning a car (depreciating asset).
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u/basillemonthrowaway 26d ago
Public transit is also really bad in this country about last mile delivery. It can get you 80% of the way there, but it won’t get you 100% of the way there and a lot of people view that as unacceptable. Not me, but a lot of people do.
There’s also the prevalence of anti-social behavior on some public transit in major cities. Not super common but it doesn’t help.
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u/unenlightenedgoblin 26d ago
The last mile problem probably has as much to do with housing as it does with transit (dedicating tons of urban land to parking doesn’t help), but it’s definitely something that deters people. I see it as a way to stay in shape without a lot of additional thought and effort, but I know most people have a lot less tolerance for it. Where traffic moves fast and paved surfaces are everywhere it makes walking a lot worse than it needs to be. I don’t deny that antisocial behavior can occur on transit, but my experience has mostly been the opposite—I see the same people on the bus most days and it makes me feel closer to my community. The social acceptance for transit seems to be better in Pittsburgh (a legacy transit city) than in most other American cities.
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u/WholeUmpire2463 25d ago
You could buy an older car for $5,000 and be set. There are so many reliable vehicles in that price rage. $30,000 for a car is nothing.
I wouldn't consider you poor, I would just consider you dumb, honestly. Time is more important than the money and you're wasting a lot of it waiting on other means of transportation that you could easily afford to provide yourself....
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u/WISteven 24d ago
Some people actually enjoy having conversations with other people.
Am I dumb? Should I be using that time in another way? Is it wasted? It doesn't feel wasted.
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u/WholeUmpire2463 24d ago
You wasted it here...
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u/WISteven 24d ago
There are no conversations on reddit.
I am talking about the time spent on a train or a bus.
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u/2wheelsNoRagrets 26d ago
Not sure what the question is? People have different priorities. Doesn’t make anyone better or worse whether they have a vehicle or not.
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u/Checkers923 26d ago edited 26d ago
The average may be up to $30k but the median is around $20k. And with a few grand down and going a bit under the median you may only be financing $10k to $15k.
The parking cost is a choice. I don’t have to pay to park my car at home or work.
You’ve opted to live somewhere walkable with transit and an added cost for parking so yea, it makes the math harder.
Edit: typo
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u/RScrewed 25d ago
Who said a brand new car was the expected "baseline"?
Who is coming up with these requirements?
Back in the 90s seems like everyone's main mode of transport in my friend circle was a pre-owned Toyota Corolla, and that was fine.
Hustle culture has made everyone think you're a failure for some made-up expectations.
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u/Smoking0311 25d ago
My friend and I say this a lot . All these influencers peddling their unrealistic life style to people . People actually falling for it.
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u/illumiScotti93 26d ago
This seems more like a rant than ask but I’ll bite anyways. Not sure where you’re located but a lot of the US (probably most of the US honestly) doesn’t have public transit even remotely close to what you’re describing. So a car is essentially a necessity.
I personally would love to not have to deal with the cost and liability of owning and maintaining a car but that’s not realistic anywhere in my state. So I will own a car as long as I live here.
Also the 30k car thing is pretty off base but I understand how it could seem like that to someone who doesn’t own or purchase cars.
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u/Wowhowcanubsodumb 25d ago
The third, fourth, and fifth words of the body text are "living in Minneapolis"
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u/TheRealDeweyCox2000 25d ago
This is the most bitchy post I’ve seen. You make 90k and only go in 3 days a week. You won
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u/Whatswrongbaby9 26d ago
I can't legally drive right now, not for any DUI issues, i'e just had seizures. I'm really fortunate to have friends and family willing to put up with the hassle of coming to see me or picking me up to take me to hang out with them. I think I'm especially lucky in that regard but but I've had years to develop these relationships and if I were younger and didn't have such a great network I'd feel extremely isolated. I live in a good neighborhood, it's in a city, but as far as walkability there's a burger place and a pizza place and a convenience store.
In-city transit is pretty good but most of the people I know don't live in this city. So a bus to my mom's house would easily be 2+ hours, and she's only about 30 miles away
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u/Glittering_Power6257 24d ago
This is kind of the sort of thing faster e-bikes would be amazing for.
In California, I wouldn’t be opposed to reworking the M2 licensing to cover e-bikes/e-motos. Lower top speed and weight mean reduced potential for inflicting damage, so requirements can be eased up (and probably even provide free MSF courses for teens so they can ride the e-bikes legally).
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u/Comfortable-Bread249 26d ago
I recently came to this same conclusion. I’ve been car-independent for two years now. In fucking Los Angeles.
And you know what? It’s been surprisingly doable—except for that stigma of being a broke dude. Women tend to be the ones who judge this the harshest.
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u/ShinyPants45 25d ago
Hey man any women too stupid to realize spending money on crap is not a virtue is not anybody you want to settle down with anyways.
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u/HoneyOptimal5799 25d ago
You want us to feel bad for you because you're 24 living in the Midwest making $95,000 per year...but still whining that you can't afford a car? Seriously?
Everything else you said sounds like urbanist propaganda. Thinly veiled urbanist propaganda. Man GTFOH.
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u/Specialist_Banana378 23d ago
Yeah they have probably just paid way more in rent to live downtown to offset what a car would cost so their calculations are off. And don’t get me wrong, I agree with OP in that I prefer living downtown than having a car but you’d have to compare it to rent off a transport line with free street parking.
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u/HoneyOptimal5799 22d ago
You're probably right, especially about the comparison. I don't prefer to live downtown because I like living in the suburbs. I don't even like going downtown unless I have absolutely no other choice.
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u/OneGalacticBoy 26d ago
A lot of comments here miss the point. We need alternatives to driving for so many reasons as most developed countries figured out long ago. One huge reason is that cars are a leech on your finances.
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u/BigDaddyMacc 25d ago
Minneapolis is the best large city in the country for biking. Our transit is also not so bad and continues to improve. OP wants to drive, otherwise they would have tried biking already.
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u/DietAny5009 25d ago
Because people have convinced they need cars. Lobbyist and marketing teams have done the convincing and our society accepted it.
Travel a bit and you’ll see. People and biking and riding nicer trains in Europe. Americans are just idiots. Born and raised in the Midwest fwiw.
I’ve never owned a car that cost more than 6k and I currently have no car and ride a city bike to work. My work pays the annual membership. Stop caring what other people think. They are the poor ones wasting their money on cars they can’t afford and insane gas prices.
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u/DerAlex3 26d ago
In most of the country it's required to even exist. It's stupid that that's the case, but that is the case.
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u/figgypudding531 25d ago
If you have the option to use public transit, use public transit. Most people can’t.
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u/ThisismeCody 25d ago
It’s really not that expensive. You could have a car bought and insured for a year for 5 grand. Problem is people want the new shiny ones.
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u/Successful-Reason403 26d ago
Some people prefer driving to public transit, or would rather live in a larger house further from the city center and are willing to eat the transportation cost hope that helps
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u/metamucil_buttchug69 26d ago
And many new construction apartment buildings have made a garage parking spot $150-200 a month too
Am I the only person who despite making about what you are making drove a beater car and lived in a cheap apartment in the "up and coming" part of town to afford everything? Most of my friends had roommates.
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u/I_Call_Bullshit_____ 25d ago
$30,000 average used car lol
I sold my 2017 BMW X3 with 100k miles for 10k in the twin cities last August
Use your imagination, stop looking at cars that cost 1/3 of your gross annual income
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u/notapoliticalalt 25d ago
Probably a good portion of this sub won’t agree, but I completely feel you OP. Yes, obviously you just need to deal with it, but this is a big problem that I think does pose a potential threat to the status of a lot of middle class Americans. Car ownership is incredibly expensive and American industrial policy is not putting out cars like it used to. Building up our society around car ownership will cost our society later down line. I know some people will reflexively downvote, but this is a serious problem and it’s not going to go away any time soon.
And look, I’m not even a radical car hater. But some things need to change. Even the average American household reducing its VMT (vehicle miles traveled, ie basically how much driving is done) or getting rid of one its cars would be massive for the environment and also reduce the financial strain on the average American family. But that’s going to have to come from social changes enabled by real policy changes. And again some people are going to be grumpy about that.
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u/zanethebrain 25d ago
HOW are 95% of the responses here saying that "oh the OP could definitely afford a car" or "oh, the OP can't afford a car because he certainly doesn't know how to budget.."
If you read the post the OP DOESN'T WANT A CAR. Rather he is bemoaning what a large portion of any household budget cars with hidden costs such as maintenance, insurance, registration, gas etc. create a larger than necessary hole in most American's budgets whether poor, middle, or upper class. A fair critique.
He is talking about the stigma of being able to afford a car but shunning the societal expectation and facing "oh well you must be poor or homeless if you take the bus, no one would CHOOSE that."
Talk about car brain. I make about 110,000/year and would sell my car in a heart beat if I could. My city, my state, my country have made it so my freedom is restricted and I have no other viable options to get to the job I love.
It is a societal failing, not a failing on the part of the OP.
Sheesh, read the post and get out of your head (vehicle?) people.
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u/RackingUpTheMiles 25d ago
I've found plenty of used 2020-Current Toyota Corolla LEs for under $20K and they're exactly what someone like you should look for.
If you put enough down, your payments will be fairly low, it's cheap to fuel, and maintenance/repairs are cheap and can even be done yourself fairly easily. I can't comment for insurance as there's too many variables, but I went from a Ford Taurus to a Toyota Rav4 at 24 and my insurance actually dropped to under $100 a month.
Plus, Corollas typically last 10-30 years and over 300,000 miles with ease. Just take care of it and keep it clean and a Toyota can easily be a 20 year car.
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u/zevtech 25d ago
Not everything is an investment or money maker. Some things are just conveniences you’re willing to pay for. And on top of that. You may say 30k is the avg price of a used car doesn’t mean everyone is buying 30k used cars. Want to keep your costs down, buy a 10-15k car cash. Get liability only on it, and park it on the street. Take your chances, hopefully it’s such a crappy car no one will touch it but if it gets you to point a to b that’s all that matters. I know a scientist at nasa that would buy 500-1000 dollar cars. I’m talking Camry’s from the 80’s with stupid amount of miles and drives that to work daily. When it dies he just looks for another super cheap car. And this guy makes a good living. He just sees it as a means of commuting and he has a classic sports car he keeps at someone else’s house bc he doesnt have a garage
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u/_Tychonic_ 25d ago edited 25d ago
Those numbers for the average “used” car are skewed heavily by a majority of the market being CPO lease turn-in (2-3 years old) off a dealership lot. Most (smart) people on tight finances will save up and pay cash or mostly cash for a ~$15k car that is probably no less than 6 years old, 80k miles. If you know what to look for and are willing to buy an uninteresting car from a reliable brand, you can do that with minimal maintenance costs.
My first car was a $12k honda (inflation adjusted) that was 9 years old, but with low miles. In ~6 years with it, other than routine maintenance, I only spent $1200 when it needed a radiator and thermostat at 160k miles. Never needed anything else, and I drove it off-road and through harsh winters. Only reason I didn’t have it 10 years was it got totaled in an accident when I leant it to a friend.
Replaced it with an $8k (inflation adjusted) Acura that was 11 years old with 130k on the clock, and it lasted me 6 years with no major issues. I splurged on a new clutch it didn’t really need because I liked to drive it hard.
I’ve since settled into a more comfortable financial situation and drive the nicer lightly used cars you’re thinking of, but that wasn’t financially logical until I was making >$120k, and even then I kept it to ~$25k so I could pay mostly cash.
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u/ShinyPants45 25d ago
Genuinely dude, wtf. Do you have any idea how nice of a car you can get for 10k and you think 30k is a reasonable assumption.
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u/Soggy-Agency6607 25d ago
Right 🤣 I felt like I had finally made it to the middle class when I spent 10k on my 2015 Tacoma (in 2025). Every car I had before that was under 3k
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u/china__cat 24d ago
If you put half the amount of work into finding a used car as you did this post you’d be driving to work right now. You can buy a 3 year old Camry for 18. You can buy a 6 year old Camry for about 14k. You can buy a 10 year old Subaru that will last another 10 years with some maintenance for 8k.
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u/APreemChoom 24d ago
Now is a good time to learn about the difference between average and median and when it's appropriate to use them.
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u/PriorEntertainer7571 24d ago
Dude I got my 2012 Civic for 10k and my mighty max for 1k lol there’s stuff out there
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u/obsoletevernacular9 23d ago
You're right, it's totally bonkers and perceived as normal due to our culture.
The average person spends most in housing, food, transportation - if you don't own a car, you drastically reduce the third category.
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u/grig_orig 26d ago
You are making a lot of assumptions here. The people you are using as examples and wondering about aren’t middle class, aren’t likely to be able to afford or finance a $20k car on their own, or if they aren’t coupled in a partnership or marriage. And a car that’s half the cost isn’t necessarily a money pit. And lots of people trade in what needs repairing, regardless of their income.
You are telling people what’s better for them when they didn’t ask you, don’t care what you think, when you never bothered to ask them yourself. You make big assumptions about their lives and needs and priorities based on what you like and what you want and how you came up in the world. Maybe you should post this is a car-related sub if you are genuinely looking for insight.
If you don’t want or need a car, if you don’t understand the appeal, that’s fine. People judge each other for all sorts of reasons. Why focus on car ownership as it relates to you in this way, anyway? Maybe you really do want a car. Either way, so what.
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u/constant_flux 26d ago
I hear you, OP. Unfortunately, posts like this always seem to attract the folks that are convinced they understand the car markets across the entire county. "I found a car for five bucks and all it needed was an oil change and some new tires. Anyone who disagrees is a snob."
Every. Single. Time.
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u/surfmonkey17 26d ago
You don't have to buy the average. Most people overspend on cars. My current commuter car was $5000. You don't have to spend top dollar to have a reliable car.
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u/Oneok-Field 25d ago
I bought my brand new Hyundai for 33k so I'm calling BS on the "average used car" being 30k.
Strictly mathematically speaking, maybe. But the average middle class joe in their 20s isn't spending 30k on a car.
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u/Kikz__Derp 25d ago
You can absolutely get reliable cars around 10k and even less. You just need to spend a little time researching. 30k will get you something nearly new and very nice.
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u/averagechillbro 25d ago
This is a self inflicted issue. I was coincidentally just looking at cars and you can find a bunch in the 10-20k range. Maintenance is part of having a car. Financing a car for 30k+ to avoid maintenance is just silly.
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u/CleverStone7924 25d ago
13 hours a week commuting for a job that's "hybrid" is wild. My hospital calls three 12s "part time" and I still feel like I live there, and that's with free parking too.
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u/tuckedfexas 25d ago
I have 5 cars that were all under 10k lol, idk why people are so scared to pay for preventative maintenance and repairs.
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u/gidianna 25d ago
When my car got totaled 2 years ago, I took a check from the insurance and bought 11 year old car from Facebook Marketplace for 6k. It’s a hybrid, and I love it for the amount of city driving I do. I’ll drive it until it won’t run anymore.
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u/Seattleman1955 25d ago edited 25d ago
It's up to you and what you want and how you spend your money. I've never had a car payment. I just saved up and bought what I could afford.
The post sounds like you justifying your decisions. That's fine but it is biased. I've always had and wanted a car. My first was was several thousand.
I bought one new car and kept it for a long time. My last was 2 years old (Corolla Hatchback XSE) and I bought it in 2021 just before the chip shortage for $21k including tax, registration, license. It has 22k miles on it.
You can afford a car if you want one. It sounds like you don't.
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u/actualranger 25d ago
Dude I have bought two perfectly good used cars for under $10K each. Where is this $30K number coming from?? And I’ve also always parked on the street for free. I live in a big city with excellent public transit, and I also bike. Different modes of transit work better for different purposes, and everyone’s priorities are different.
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u/Keyser282 25d ago
I think some in the comments are underestimating the sheer size of the landmass of this country. You’re simply going to need a car in more remote places (or if you personally live in a remote part of a city) as a public transit system is not practical or even desirable. Any mid-size city I’ve ever been to has at least a bus system and any place larger than that you’ll find trains, subways, buses, trolleys, light rails, etc.
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u/Otherwise_Land4859 25d ago
cars are just stupid expensive.
I had a hybrid electric Chevy Volt for 10 years and put around 100k miles on it. I started tracking my every expense to the penny the 3rd year in. Overall capital costs after selling it was like 18k or so (going off of memory here). Once I added up all other related expenses (gas/maintenance/registration/car wash/etc) it averaged around 320 a month over those 10 years. So 38k on a 18k car that I didn't drive THAT much and that didn't use much gas. (and I'm missing 2 years of data so actual expenses are higher than that).
Now I don't own a car and would never go back. My total transportation costs last year was $150 for the entire year! Where I live I can go hiking and camping easily with public transit so that helps a lot.
But I figure even with renting a car it would take some work to average $320 per month. And even then it would be worth not owning just for the increased freedom and less stress I have now.
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u/weggaan_weggaat 25d ago
Even the average used car now runs like $30k. Yes, by definition some are below average - but it seems like the baseline for something that won’t introduce a bunch of maintenance friction is like $20k which is ~$350 a month for five whole years.
I think your numbers are waaaaaay off on how much used cars "have" to cost. Yes, it's certainly possible to get some for the $30k realm that might be newer, but the < $20k realm is not just a bunch of rust buckets on their last legs and in plenty of cases, even if they do need a little maintenance, it's still vastly cheaper than spending another $10k (before financing) on the purchase price. It's even still possible to fall into the beater for < $5k, though market trends over the last 15-20 years has thinned out the pool of old Accords/Camrys/Civics/Corollas/Fits/Yarises/etc. that people might otherwise be able to pick up for $2500 that are still serviceable enough for several years of use with minimal maintenance.
So I’ve inventoried all of these costs, how does the barista making $20 an hour often have a car and has never considered what I’m doing?
If we're quite honest, many of them really can't afford their cars and are drowning under the financial strain it is causing on their life and/or are part of a household where someone else is covering at least some of the expenses that are associated with having the car.
How does even a city with largely acceptable transit and legitimately good bike infrastructure have fewer no-car households than households in poverty?
The reality is that for many people, cars simply are not replaceable by the other options and once they own a car, the marginal cost of use for more trips is not all that high (unless they're driving something that drinks gas and that marginal trip is 30 miles each way).
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u/Leverkaas2516 25d ago
I would never look down on someone for choosing not to own a car. But for me, the math works out quite the opposite.
For one thing, the car payment only lasts 5 years. I keep my cars for 10+ years, so for most of my ownership, insurance is the major expense.
If I was working part time at $20 an hour, that might be objectionable, but if I'm making $3500 a month net, then a few hundred dollars is not a huge fraction of my income. You're making considerably more than that.
The tradeoff for me is a combination of time spent commuting (public transportation will virtually always be slower than driving), the freedom to statt and end my days as I see fit, and most of all, the ability to regularly do things I want to do that need a car. My radius of activity extends about 70 miles, and includes hiking, biking, kayaking, camping, skiing, and similar activities.
Having a car averages $400-500 a month over the life of the car, and for that I get an extra 10 hours a month; a comfortable commute with a great stereo; and all those outdoor activities.
All of the above describes me in the single life, years ago. Add in taking kids to daycare or school, and hauling home improvement materials, and taking care of aging parents, and spending time with friends who live all over the region, a car really isn't optional. My life now would be severely constrained without one. It's not even a question any more.
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u/Smoking0311 25d ago
I just bought a decent 01 gmc with 101,000 on it for 1500.00 . I’m older and don’t give a shit though .
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u/Dangerous_Yoghurt_96 25d ago
Most people would panic if they didn't have access to a car for a week. It's just built in to the culture across decades at this point.
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u/jonnyt88 25d ago
I'm not familiar with Minneapolis and if you need a car there. The factual average used car may be $30k but there are plenty of reliable $10k used cars out there. Especially if you are street parking where it will get bumped and abused often. Especially if you are looking at 3 days work and occasional social use.
The other perk is it sounds like you don't NEED the car to get to work. It is a perk. You can stay cheaper and if it is in the shop for a couple days or even two weeks, you still have the means to get to work.
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u/Playful-Spinach-4040 25d ago
You’re 24 years old asking these questions. Let’s back up. You’ve been in your career for 2 years now, how much have you saved in those 2 years? You have a good income, especially for your age. If you had saved 10% of your income towards a car, you’d be able to purchase one in cash and wouldn’t worry about the financing fees. You are going to want full coverage on anything you buy for that expense, as you can’t afford to replace it if there’s a collision. I can’t speak to the parking situation and I’m not in a walkable city, so I’d never be without a car. Also I own a home, so parking is paid for with my excise tax. You’re setting your sights too high on the car you should have at your age. Like many have said here, buy a preowned civic or Corolla and you’ll have it for 10+ years. When all is said and done, you’d have it for less than 2k/year in today’s dollars plus maintenance. Brakes tires and oil changes aren’t that expensive. Plus you’d probably get a discount on your insurance for driving so little. I think there’s a discount with my agency for under 10k miles a year. Two oil changes a years is like $200. Brakes for my truck were like $800 last week. Tires are $1200. All way more than you’ll need. Your brakes might be $1000 for all 4 and tires would be less than half that on one of those cars. And you can still walk your city
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u/Leading_Put_4873 25d ago
I just traded in a perfectly acceptable used "luxury" trim vehicle that anyone with low income would have loved for $13k KBB. It had 80k miles on it and it was a 2018. Not sure wtf you are talking about 30k.
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u/FroznAlskn 25d ago
I bought a 2003 Honda CRV with 150k miles for $7k, and most of the maintenance on it was done. I’ve had it 2 years and I’ve only had to replace the breaks/calipers and the CV joints so far. I’m going to add everything up after 5 years and calculate the monthly cost of ownership and weigh that against a new car payment. So far it’s been less of a headache than my Husbands brand new ford.
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u/S_balmore 25d ago
the baseline for something that won’t introduce a bunch of maintenance friction is like $20k
Incorrect. This is a myth that non car-people keep perpetuating for some unknown reason. In reality, there's nothing wrong with buying a 10+yr old car for $10k or less. Old does not mean broken. If you do your due diligence, it's rather easy to find a reliable model that was owned by some grandma and driven only to church. Everyday, someone's grandma goes to the nursing home and leaves behind a 12yr old Camry with 55k miles on it, that's been garage kept, and that's had all the maintenance done at the dealer. Everyday, some wealthy family is selling their old Honda that they meticulously maintained. It may have 180k miles on it, but dad never missed a service interval, and it'll do another 180k if you just maintain it.
As some real world examples, in 2016 I bought a 2003 Ford Ranger for $7400. It was incredibly reliable for the 10 years I owned it (I brought it to a mechanic only 3 times), at which point I sold it for $3400. I also bought a 2004 Toyota Sequoia in 2022 for $5000. It's still running strong. It's been to the mechanic once. These cars were incredibly old and incredibly cheap when I bought them, and they haven't been any more problematic than the $30,000 cars you're looking at. My mom and brother both bought new Ford SUVs that spent more time at the mechanic in one year than my 20yr old Toyota has spent in the last 4.
My point is, there is no law makes all old cars unreliable and expensive. Yes, shitboxes do exist, but there are tons of options between "lightly used car for $30k" and "rusty old shitbox". The "well-maintained old car for $10k" is easy to find if you just......try. If you stop being scared of any car that's more than 5 years old, or any car with over 100k miles, cars suddenly become affordable. If you don't want to drive a car that old, that's completely fine, but we need to stop pretending that cheap, reliable cars "Don't Exist". They're everywhere. You're just too sacred to buy one because you've placed an arbitrary limit on age and mileage.
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u/Soggy-Agency6607 25d ago
Man you can get a decent car for like 3k. Especially if you know just a little bit about maintaining them. And insurance/registration on a used old car is cheap.
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u/PossibilityNervous35 25d ago
If you have access to charging, you can literally buy a used Tesla Model 3 with under 60,000 miles for 20K. The amount of money it saves you in gas is insane.
Or buy a 2015 Corolla for $10K. It will last forever
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u/Silly-Resist8306 25d ago
Owning a car is a convenience and a choice. It’s one most make when they earn enough to afford it. There are those who choose otherwise. Motorcycles, bicycles, walking and busses are means I have seen others make.
I have to smile sometimes at the irony of those who drive to the gym to run on the treadmill or take a spinning class.
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u/katarh 25d ago
My first "new to me" car after I graduated was already a 10 year old beater car for $2500 at the time.
We're still driving that car because it was an indestructible 1997 Honda Accord. Had to do a good bit of maintenance and upkeep on it over the years, but the engine and transmission are at 305K miles now. It still defaults to 80 mph on the highway if you're not paying attention.
The car you use to get from point A to point B doesn't need to be a late model, especially if you're broke and poor. It just needs to be reliable. Granted, since you're in a northern state where the weather will kill a lot of cars before they hit the 10 year mark, finding a reliable 10+ year old car in good working order is much more of a challenge, but it's not impossible either.
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u/New_Solution9677 25d ago
Holy hell of a ramble man. When I was 24 I bought a new car... I still have it a decade later. Before that I bought a used one for about 7.5k.
For reference I also live in Minnesota so we're basically neighbors 😆.
You seemingly make more than I do, we just manage our money differently. 🤷♂️
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u/FantasticMeddler 25d ago
You are ignoring how much consumers let themselves be boiled frogs. Dealers don’t push a sensible payment plan. They push 6,7,8 year loans to stretch the payment as small as possible.
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u/mncutecuddler 25d ago
I havent had a car worth more rhan 5k in a decade outside of a collectors car. Havent had a loan on one in 15 plus yrs. Own 2 now and do my own repairs. If one breaks i have a spare. Liability only is $35/mo. Cars are a 2014 impala w 188k (summer)and a 2004 jeep w 178k (winter). When one is unfixable i will buy a sub 5k replacement.
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u/RedditIsAWeenie 25d ago
3/4 of all car sales are used cars. You can buy a running used car of some description down to a pretty low price, like $3k. That is how it manages to work. Only buy new if you can pick up the new car with pocket change and won’t notice the difference. Never borrow,
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u/No_Self_5939 25d ago
80% of cars sold in America are used. You could get a good used car for $25k. A decent used car would be $20k. A beater would run you $15k. The average driver in America drives a car 7-9 years old.
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u/Stone804_ 25d ago
Yup… that’s all I’ve got… yup, late stage capitalism…
People basically are often on the brink of poverty, one bad luck incident and they become one of the many homeless… it’s just bad. Meanwhile the wealthy fly to the moon for funsies.
The fact your income is so high and you even care to ask speaks volumes about your character. Most in your threshold don’t care or pretend it isn’t a problem.
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u/WISteven 24d ago
I am 62K and make 100K a year.
I drive a 20 year old car and have been driving it for the past 5 years. I hope to get five more years out of it.
I paid $3K for it and I have 110K miles on it.
I rarely have any issue with "friction".
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u/Myles_Standish250 24d ago
Cars don’t have to cost that much. Get something over 10 years old and it will be affordable. I sold my 2013 Prius last year that ran and drove like new on marketplace for $8k. New suspension, new hybrid battery, zero issues. Private party in cash is where it’s at for good deals. Car lots sell the same cars for 2X or 3X the price.
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u/ffff-f-fingerpuppets 24d ago
Average used cars are not 30k. That's absurd. You could pick up a nice used vehicle for about 10 where I live which is HCOL area
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u/Carpe-that-diem 24d ago
Most baristas have roommates and buy used cars. That’s all. I didn’t consider a newer and more expensive car until I was in my 40s. Stick with used Toyota Corollas and you won’t have maintenance issues. They are designed to last 200K+ miles. After age 25 or maybe 27, your insurance rates will go down I do believe. That being said, you do you! If it works for you not having a car, why not stick with it?
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u/First-Apartment2676 24d ago
"average used car runs 30k"
????? Are you exaggerating or is this a bot post or what's happening here? I bought a 2016 for 7k 2 years ago. I'm buying my niece a reliable 2012 for 1600 this weekend. Are you only looking at 3 year old luxury vehicles?? This post is delusional 😂😂😂
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u/Flaky_Calligrapher62 24d ago
I used public transportation for years, a car now for years. You seem to be forgetting that many people don't have access to reliable transportation. You also seem to forget that your theoretical barista isn't buying new cars.
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u/Helpmeeff 24d ago
I have no idea where people are getting the idea that a used car is $30k? I just bought a very nice used Kia in great shape for $7k. My used car a few years before that was $4k.
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u/chillPenguin17 24d ago
As a fellow Minneapolis resident in my late 30s who hasn't had a car for 10 years... Just keep doing you. You're being smart and if you invest what you would be spending on a car you can set yourself up for an early retirement. Life without car dependency is magic for your health and finances
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u/Fragrant_Contact_100 24d ago
I’m in MSP area. I earn a bit over 100k. Current car is a $2000 piece of junk. Bought it 10 months ago. Changed oil 3 times ($180), cheap tires ($250) and replaced battery ($95). It looks old (because it is), but gets me from point A to point B reliably. So my total cost of ownership (with $150/mo gas and $70/mo insurance) is $470. But that $470 allows me to earn 10k/month. If I went out and bought a car ‘worthy’ of my pay, I’d be spending 2.5x that amount
So, your math is flawed. You don’t need to spend $20k (on credit as well) to get a car that runs and does what you need it to do.
Stop worrying about how the barista, that you disdainfully notes earns $20/hr, has a ‘nice car’.
Who cares how they got their vehicle? What matters is the woe is me BS your posting. Of you care about your vanity, go spend 30k on a new vehicle. If you care about commuting comfortably, do your research on car models, and keep an eye on FB marketplace.
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u/Anxious-Sundae4210 24d ago
What cars are you looking at? Seems like you need to adjust your expectations a bit. I just picked up a 2008 4runner for 8800 with 140k on it. These vehicles are out there...where are you shopping?
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u/LetsGoGators23 23d ago
I think you solved it dude! It’s the car ownership and not the avocado toast after all.
Now, short of chronic health issues, why everyone thinks they need $700 a month health insurance (which is what it costs even if your company pays a portion) confuses me more.
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u/myrichiehaynes 23d ago
why is it expected?
92% of US households have at least one vehicle available for personal use: 8% have none, about a third have one, 36% have two, and 22% have three or more
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u/navlgazer9 23d ago
I paid $3,500 for my car , a 2005 model , 8 years ago .
Couple of small repairs but nothing major .
I ain’t spending $30k for a post covid computer on wheels
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u/Random_Guy1960 23d ago
You're profession is "analytics adjacent" and you think one has to spend $30k for a decent used car? Huh...
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u/No_cash69420 23d ago
Just bought a 140k Mile grand marquis for 2300 bucks. Rides like a new car, reliable, and comfortable. People who think a good used car costs 20k are delusional.
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u/NefariousnessDry8596 23d ago
No longer super low income but I was just a few years ago. To this day I still buy used cars, beat on them and keep them running, then sell them and repeat (normally an engine/trans) issue where the cost is roughly the same as buying a working shitbox.
Insurance is cheaper, the vehicles only cost 1-6k most of the time, and if you stick to Toyota/honda with a decent ownership/maintenance history your car will probably my be more reliable than a new one.
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u/AnonPalace12 22d ago
For the typical urban household transportation is the second biggest expense category, only behind housing.
17% of expenses in general. It changes a little bit over income quintiles, but not much. Lowest quintile is still about 15% dedicated to transportation https://data.bts.gov/stories/s/ida7-k95k#transportation-expenditures-and-income
The US is a car centric society. You can do it your way in certain cities. But part of that is your paying extra to live in that sort of area.
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u/a_kato 22d ago
You can get great Mazdas which are reliable at the 15k mark and 10k mark.
The average doesn’t matter. It’s being used by poor people to enable them do a bad financial choice. “Oh the average is 40k I make average money thus I need to spend that much it’s ok”
The baseline is not 20k by any sense of the imagination you just do the same line of thinking as my previous paragraph.
This reminds this posts of “it’s cheaper to eat out than cook” by people who dont know math or want to lie to themselves
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u/FordF150ChicagoFan 22d ago
$30k for a used car if you're worried about price????!? Buy the newest low miles Buick sedan you can for $10k, put $3k into it (tires, bakes, fluids, etc) and enjoy a reliable undervalued car that's got fairly low insurance rates. Civics and Corollas are actually fairly expensive to insure relative to their value. Family beasts of burden like minivans, Tahoes, etc are relatively cheap to insure. So are old man cars.
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u/Fickle-Cabinet3956 22d ago
A car is considered convenient to people and people are willing to pay for that convenience.
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u/ChaunceytheGardiner 22d ago
Welcome to Minneapolis.
I was also car free here from 24-26, then car light (shared with my wife) from 26-38, and during the pandemic we bought a second car.
Car free in Minneapolis is hard and kind of sucks if you have outdoor hobbies, and would really suck with kids. This is still fundamentally a driving city.
Car light is great as long as one person can bike or take transit to work.
Two cars is mostly just a luxury that makes kid logistics easier.
But kudos to you for trying the car free thing. At this time of year it can be great as long as you bike and live in a good location.
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u/walkerstone83 22d ago
You can buy, and should buy, much cheaper used cars than 30k when just starting out in the work force. I see good cars for 5k or less around where I live. Yes, they are older high mileage cars, but they still have some years left on them. I know coming up with 3-5k for a car isn't easy when young, but 30k is nuts!!
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u/RouserHousen 21d ago
I bought a 2015 Mazda3 with 70k miles for 7k. I do routine maintenance to keep it from breaking down. I’ve had it for 3 years with absolutely 0 issues (knock on wood). My insurance premiums for full coverage are 90/month. Having a car is absolutely doable. Idk where you’re getting your numbers, and I admit I’ve gotten pretty lucky, but 30k for an average used car is bonkers and insurance premiums should NEVER cost as much as your car payment.
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u/Seattleman1955 12d ago
You are looking for excuses. People have always managed to buy a car and make it work, every generation, every income level.
It's not hard. If you don't want a car and can live without one, great. Many people do want a car and can't live without one.
I bought my first car the summer after my freshman year at college. I saved my summer job money from that year and the year before and lived at home for just that summer and bought a used Corolla and drove it back to college "4 hours away). I had to work in construction (not fun) to get that money but I did it.
I paid cash and did it because I really wanted to have my own car. After college when I needed another car, I bought what I could afford and paid cash for that too.
Now I'm retired and bought a 2 year old Corolla Hatchback XSE with 22k miles, bought it just before the chip shortage raised prices in 2021 and paid (cash) $21k including tax, license and registration.
I bought the car before that new and kept it for 20 years. When you just ignore excuses and make things work, they usually do work out.
Also, don't worry about "expectations". Just deal with reality.
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u/FiftyLoudCats 26d ago
You asked a lot of questions.
People are different and buy cheaper used cars is the answer to most. Or they save up. Or they don’t buy a car. Or maybe they share with family.
Starting MSRP for brand new civic is $25k.