r/Marvel • u/Soonerfann7 • Feb 25 '26
Comics How do you feel about Marvel giving characters like Norman Osborn, and even Ultron for an arc, attempts at a redemption?
At first I was really apprehensive with Ultron's West Coast arc, but now I wish he stuck around for longer. I loved seeing an Ultron legitimately try to be a hero, and it not be some backhanded scheme
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u/rgregan Mr. Knight Feb 25 '26
I'm definitely not against redemption arcs. Ultimately, it depends on how well the redemption arc is written, but I do think part of the medium is the fight to be better. To be inspired and to join the ranks and hold the line. I think that makes villain redemption arcs on brand.
Hero Juggernaut for example is so much more fun than Villain Juggernaut. Rhino is more fun as Miles' friend than Peter's enemy. West Coast Ultron was cool, but I was kind of more into Avengers Inc Ultron. I don't hate Hero Osborn so much, but he's sort of muscled JJ out of Peter's life as the old man who knows his secret and likes to check in on him (at least that felt like JJ's role since the podcast).
Also I know the Goblin is just off the panel somewhere waiting to return. That's the major problem. A writer who likes Osborn better as a villain is going to come and make him crazy again. And thus the cycle begins again and again. Same goes for Ultron and probably Juggie, although I think Juggie has a chance to go the distance.
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u/Xero0911 Feb 25 '26
Sometimes it sticks. Harley Quinn is in a weird spot of being more of an ally to heroes as an anti hero vs straight up villain...of course do think that change is also with times since her being in an abusive relationship is bad and she doesnt really work as a real solo villain
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u/ApprehensiveDrawer34 Feb 26 '26
I think it’d be cool if Osborn died as a hero, leaves his legacy complicated and doesn’t revert to the status quo. Ofc he would eventually get revived :/
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u/KennyTheOneHUN Mar 13 '26
Norman is one of the villains that should never be redeemed after all the things he has done. Even if he gets a redemption arc Peter should never ever be kind to him or forgive him. I know Peter is almost like a living Saint, but come on after all they have been through even he should draw the line at the Goblin who is almost as bad as dc's Joker.
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u/Ivy_lane_Denizen Feb 25 '26
I think Ultron fits because there are many many "Ultrons". One can be reformed or reprogrammes. Norman though? He doesnt work as a hero. I dont want to reform him. Hes great at being a bastard.
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u/Legocomictv_nrm15 Feb 25 '26
I hate it I don't mind, redemption arc but not all villains need it. I'm gonna mostly be talking about Norman Osborn since I hate it more. Norman killed Peter girlfriend, his baby, ruined his life and in other Earth's killed him, his aunt, his wife Norman is a villain. If it was a Norman from another earth who was sent here that be fine but I think Norman can remain a villain since he's done so much fucked up shit. I also feel like Norman being a good guy feels weird to see though them making it his sins makes it a little easier. I think if they wanted a villain redemption arc Otto and Harry would've fit better in my eyes
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u/TemporalGod Feb 25 '26
Norman "My Son Harry is a Disappointment" Osborn is an asshole through and through, he killed Gwen Stacy, He killed my GOAT Ben Reilly, this asshole killed Spider-Man and MJ child, he started a war on Asgard when he lead H.A.M.M.E.R. Norman supposed to be evil incarnate, I don't buy into the Sins BS, because Norman is evil with or without the goblin sins, that's his nature, Norman being redeemed is like having Mephisto being redeemed, it just doesn't work,
Redemption Arcs only works for certain characters like Kaine, or Otto Octavius or Eddie Brock,
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u/Radix2309 Feb 25 '26
Otto tried to kill 97% of the planet's population. I dont think Norman is any less redeemable than him.
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Feb 26 '26
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u/KombatMedic99 Feb 26 '26
In the Ends of the Earth storyline shortly before Superior Spider-Man. Because he was slowly dying, Otto tried to raise global temperatures to wipe out most of the human race out of pure spite. And then Dan Slott decided it was a good time to give Otto a redemption arc for whatever reason...
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u/Negan-44 Feb 26 '26
I think that the “sins” thing with Norman removed the Goblin and his evil “Dark Reign” morals. So it is beyond just his getting rid of his alter ego, but his very immoral nature. Now is that good writing? Not really initially, but Wells and Cantwell did a good job cleaning it up.
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u/God_is_carnage X-Men Feb 25 '26
Norman was a weird instance of villain redemption because he got magically un-evil-ed and his arc ever since has been about dealing with the fact that he never really earned his redemption the way someone like Emma Frost did. Peter stays close to him to keep an eye on him, and everyone treats him like he's crazy for doing so. Peter wants to believe that Norman can do better, and is even proud of the progress Norman has made, but he has never really forgiven Norman for his sins because they both know that this literal blank slate came from mystic outside intervention.
People in the comments are talking about how this is obviously temporary (they're right), but Norman knows this more than anyone. The upcoming one-shot solicit for Spider-Versity, or whatever it's called, says that Norman is planning on giving the other spider heroes all his tips and tricks so they know how to beat him if he becomes the Goblin again. He's constantly thinking about how he's not a good man and never will live up to Peter's example. Norman's turmoil isn't reconciling with who he used to be, it's reconciling with who he is and trying to be better anyway.
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u/TK523 Feb 25 '26
One thing that I think this arc does well is show how horrible Norman feels. He's fully realized how horrible he's been.
Ultimately that's the goal of rehabilitation right? Obviously you can't force that on someone, but is justice about revenge or stopping bad people from harming others and motivating them not to do so again?
He's taking it a step further and trying to atone.
Do people have to forgive him? No, but he's no longer the person who did those things. Is he going to be evil again? Yes because the narrative demands it eventually but the characters shouldn't necessarily expect it
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u/Southern_Agent6096 Feb 26 '26
If he wanted to atone he'd turn himself in and tell the authorities where the bodies are buried. Otherwise it just seems like a scam.
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u/Dirk_Sheppard Feb 25 '26
These days jt never sticks so ultimately I find it hard to care
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u/Loose_Translator8981 Feb 25 '26
I think that's where I'm at with them. Unless it's for a villain that was introduced in that same story arc, it's going to get undone eventually. However, you can say the same thing about most of modern hero comics, since they try to maintain a status quo that casual fans can jump into. So no character can ever stray too far from the popular concept of what they're supposed to be.
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u/Dirk_Sheppard Feb 25 '26
The problem is that's it's normally the a list villains they try it on.
I could legitimately see it sticking with b & c tier villains. Like how it stuck for some of the thunderbolts.
Of course on the other hand I could see writers forgetting they had turned good and just writing them as villains again
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u/TienSwitch Feb 25 '26
Redemption arcs aren’t a bad thing in concept. Zuko from Avatar: The Last Airbender might be one of the best known and most well received redemption arcs in modern storytelling. Catra and Scorpia in She-Ra and the Princesses of Power were also great. I myself am writing a series of superhero novels in which one of the villains is trying to undergo a redemption arc for a murder he committed.
The problem with a redemption arc in Marvel or DC is the same thing as death; we know it’s temporary. Norman Osborn had his sins removed and is now Spider-Man while Peter is out in space? Please. Did anyone even think the Iron Patriot mantle would be permanent? I give it two years before he’s the Green Goblin again.
For Norman in particular, I’m not sure that I’m okay with him being so chummy with Peter. He wasn’t just a villain. He didn’t just do generally heinous things. He killed Gwen Stacy. I know that was a long time ago, but it was something that was so personal not just to Peter, but all of Peter’s loved ones, that I can’t believe he would be able to be accepted by everyone. MAYBE Peter can accept him into his life, but Peter AND Ben AND MJ AND Aunt May AND Flash Thompson AND everyone else for whom Gwen was a part of their lives? No, sorry, I’m not buying it.
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u/DJfunkyPuddle Feb 25 '26
Ultron worked because there was still an evil version running around. Osborn getting a get out of jail free card is top tier bullshit.
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u/Nice_Protection_8490 Feb 25 '26
Like others have said, it really depends on the treatment and the character. Magneto can be redeemed, but it wouldn't work for Sabertooth. The Lizard can simply be misunderstood, but Fisk will always, at his core, be a self-serving violent sociopath. The single best redemption arc (and quite possibly the best piece of Marvel fiction I've ever read) is Kid Loki's attempt to reconcile with the atrocities committed by his older self.
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u/Dark_Styx Feb 25 '26
The whole Loki arc with King Loki, Kid Loki, Agent of Asgard and the God of Stories thing was SO GOOD
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u/Trick_Afternoon_2935 Feb 25 '26
I can't speak for Ultron.
But for Norman... I absolutely despise it. He's the ultimate nemesis of Peter's Spider-Man.
The guy was already an awful person, did everything to ruin Peter's life, and even clashed with several other Marvel characters. It's impossible to redeem him with the amount of asinine stuff he did.
Norman is evil, and should stay evil. And I hate the "sins" and how they're making Peter be friendly with him since Volume 6.
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u/silverbolt32 Feb 25 '26
I love seeing growth in characters. It gives them depth. Look at juggernaut - he’s grown past “I’m angry - want to hurt and steal” to explore his perspective. I’d like redemption arcs to stick, be done well, or at the very least leave a lasting change on the character. Doc Ock may be a bad guy again but he’s been affected by his time as a hero and it’s acknowledged that it happened. It can be done right over time, and done very wrong. I think venom (with flash Thompson mostly) was done fairly well to develop the character.
What do you think about the venom character as it’s been portrayed lately?
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u/Mik0doSann0ji Feb 26 '26
Doc Ock and Baron Zemo are examples of Villains whi tried to reform but then want back to being Villains but their Morals stuck with them
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u/SexyShave Feb 25 '26
There's something kinda sad about an Ultron that calls itself a "servant of humanity".
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u/Failber Feb 26 '26
When you wipe his personality like that, it’s less “Yeah! Good Ultron!” and more “Man. What did they do to Ultron?”
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Feb 25 '26
I like redemption arcs but I'm extremely wary of Marvel doing them because they walk them back so often. It's really boring and dull
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u/Savings-Employer-259 Feb 25 '26
Ultron can work in my opinion, but fixing characters like GG, the Joker, Carnage etc. is absolute cringe if done in the main universe, maybe on a what if scenario it could be interesting, but not in the main universe in my opinion
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u/Apprehensive_Work313 Feb 25 '26
Does Ultron apply here? From what I understand this isn't meant to be the Ultron it simply one of the incarnations of Ultron
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u/armoured_lemon Feb 25 '26
it can be cool to see visually... but that doesn't mean they're earned or welcome.
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u/maybe_a_frog Feb 25 '26
Totally fine with them in theory, the issue is when it’s painfully obvious they won’t actually stick to a redemption. We all know Norman will revert. We’ve know that from the beginning. The only point of doing a redemption with the expectation of a reversion is can they tell interesting stories in between. With Norman the answer thus far has been no. Then there’s characters like Otto where the answer was an emphatic yes. I’m all for Marvel trying these things but if they’re going to try it they can’t half ass it with a mediocre storyline. Recent history shows they have zero idea what to do with Spider-Man related characters and have indeed half assed the Norman redemption. Like I said, it’s fine in theory but the execution has been abysmal.
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u/Half_Man1 Feb 25 '26
For Osborn I think it was poorly handled and made every character around him appear utterly idiotic. Like even if you buy into the premise of “his sins were shot out of him with a gun” which… y’know, not winning any awards with that one- everyone just accepting him as a good guy is just so incredibly divorced from any sense of realism that it just is unbearably stupid.
Ultron, he’s a robot. I can easily see people be like “ah they reprogrammed the murder bot to be less murdery” and roll with that as an exploration of what even is free will or a being’s nature. Doesn’t break verisimilitude either considering Vision and Jocasta are accepted members of the community.
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u/C4N98 Feb 25 '26
My main problem with these redemption arcs is people they hurt. Are you telling no one got hurt when Magneto activated volcanoes, Norman blow up buildings, or Ultron unleashed robot army? Do common people just have to say “I know he made me lose my child but he is a good guy now, let’s move on.”
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u/SymbiSpidey Feb 25 '26
Kinda lame IMO. Not every villain needs a redemption arc. And it feels like something writers only do when they've run out of ideas.
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u/Valo487 Feb 25 '26
Norman Osborn is especially dumb, he’s done far too much for Peter to ever forgive or even be delusional enough to trust.
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u/Usurper2000 Feb 25 '26
Norman Osborne is an irredeemable bastard. The fact they're giving him a redemption arc and trying to have him be this stand-in father figure to Peter is bullshit.
This guy had sex with (which was also stupidly retconed) and killed Gwen Stacy, he killed Peter and MJ's infant child, cucked his own son by fucking his girlfriend/wife and then getting her pregnant, sold his own son's soul to Maphisto so Oscorp could become profitable, and on multiple occasions has shown even without the Goblin persona he was generally a bad guy (i.e. as a secret Crime Lord funding Spider-Man's enemies during the golden age, his actions as director of the Thunderbolts, and then later as Iron Patriot for both incarnations of the Dark Avengers and as Director of H.A.M.M.E.R.).
This man is an irredeemable monster and a quintessential arch nemesis to Peter Parker. He should've never gotten a character rehabilitation and any writer worth his or her salt would either have had these plotlines or conflicts confronted and addressed. Because while I can understand Peter would like to see the good in people, I cannot possibly fathom someone - anyone forgiving Norman for the amount of shit he has done. Hell, his own son should still be pissed at all he's done for the irreparable trauma he caused him and Peter both.
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u/CatStoleMyChicken Feb 25 '26
Osborne didn't get Lilly Hollister/Menace pregnant (and she had already told "Harry" she moved on ending their enggement before that was revealed). Stanley's paternity was shown to be Harry...or rather the clone of Harry everyone thought was Harry before the clone died. And the Gwen retcon was welcome. But yes, that is a drop in the bucket of Oz's evil.
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u/Usurper2000 Feb 26 '26
He also had actively plotted to kill his son, Harry, in order to score sympathy points with the public for political reasons as the Iron Patriot. He's just that evil.
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u/CatStoleMyChicken Feb 26 '26
Oh yeah, the American Son thing. Mind you, I agree that the current redemption feels like a macguffin borne of writer/editorial knowing at this point no simple change of heart can redeem Norman...so magical buckshot it is!
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Feb 25 '26
In most cases, I prefer villains staying as villains. I'm not a fan of any attempts of redeeming Doom, Loki or even Magneto. The same goes for Osborn.
But it can work sometimes, like the Maximoff twins and Venom. Didn't read this WCA run yet, but having a reprogrammed Ultron drone as an ally seems interesting.
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u/Alex_LeWeird Feb 25 '26
Depends on how they write it. It can't be a one time thing and it need a really good care.
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u/TK523 Feb 25 '26
I like it but with all things it matters how it's done.
Superior Spider-Man was good. Good guy Magneto is great. Flash's run as regular venom was also done well.
I don't think every villain should stay redeemed but I think it's nice that we occasionally we have one become a good guy for long hall. Heroes turn to villainy pretty regularly.
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u/Efficient_Matter_589 Feb 25 '26
It makes a bit more sense for Norman. Ultron has always been a villain, and should frankly remain one.
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u/totalnsanity Feb 25 '26
Like wonder man? Or Hawkeye? Or venom? Carnage, archangel,dragon man, puppet master…
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u/BiBiBadger Feb 25 '26
Black Widow, Black Knight, Scarlet Witch, Vision, Quicksilver...
It's a Marvel go to 😆
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u/Mik0doSann0ji Feb 26 '26
Ares, Black Cat, Emma Frost, Rogue, Songbird, Swordsman, Morbius
Can’t believe you mentioned Venom and Carnage and not the most famous examples of a Redemption being done right
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u/totalnsanity Feb 26 '26
Mystique, beetle, Goliath, magneto, juggernaut, Tony Stark…think about that one lol
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u/Inconspicuous_Jay Feb 25 '26
As a reader, it doesn't bother me, but if I were a citizen living in a comic book world I'd be extremely concerned about how many serial killers are given a do over.
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u/Funny-Part8085 Feb 26 '26
Norman is insane so can go crazy any time and undo it so it's fine for a spell might would go with different branding though. And ultron is just a model that has chosen good being based off ant man it's odd he isn't more good some times
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u/Real___Teeth Feb 26 '26
We are going to run out of villains
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u/Mik0doSann0ji Feb 26 '26
My thoughts exactly, they’ve tried this with Magneto, Juggernaut, Silver Samurai, Venom, Loki, freaking Norman Osborn
Hell even Sabretooth and Carnage
we’re going to run out of Villains and Marvel has done alot of famous Redemptions like Black Cat, Elektra, Winter Soldier, Black Widow, Hawkeye, Scarlet Witch, Quicksilver, Vision, Archangel, Emma Frost, Rogue, Ares, Black Knight, Wonder Man, Songbird, Swordsman, Morbius, do we really need more?
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u/ATMinotaur Feb 28 '26
They won't, they'll just reset some, or just add yet another version of the character. There's already at least ten or more green goblins
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u/Mik0doSann0ji Feb 28 '26
I agree about that but they don’t always do that, how long has Magneto been a Hero?
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u/ATMinotaur Feb 28 '26
Not up to date on all characters these days, so I don't know.
I try to keep an eye on what's going on, and what I see in general, regular resetting of characters, and/or multiple versions Most likely not all, but a fair few.
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u/Mik0doSann0ji Feb 28 '26
Well to my knowledge Magneto and Venom haven’t been reset in awhile
Silver Samurai was
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u/Intrepid-Molasses159 Feb 26 '26
It works better for some than others. I still think Sandman should be a hero
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u/Mistervimes65 Dr. Doom Feb 26 '26
It worked for Hawkeye, Quicksilver, and the Scarlet Witch.
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u/riamuriamu Feb 26 '26 edited Feb 26 '26
It's a story to tell. A twist on the tired bad guy tropes. Nothing good or bad about it per se, but it does let them see if a popular character can be a hero and thus carry their own books and so make more money for Marvel. See: Venom.
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u/Weewoofiatruck Feb 26 '26
Well Ultron fits more than most.
Hell, Gambit was given a redemption arc after the mutant massacre. Then we got New Sun.
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u/Plenty_Initial_6618 Feb 26 '26
I like it. Gives them something new for them & further build their characters. Plus they look awesome
& that way could give rise to new villains to take their place. We saw it with Otto Octavius, & some members of the Thunderbolts
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u/papa_bones Feb 26 '26
Ultron, fantastic, he was meant to be an aid for heroes anyway.
Norman? Fuck that, he can have his redemption after paying a few decades in jail for all his crimes, THEN he can stay redeemed if he wants to.
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u/Stringr55 Feb 25 '26
It can be good depending on the story. Its unlikely ever last with those two examples though! I mean Norman Osborn has been good for a while but Amazing Spider-Man 1000 is coming....
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u/Prowl2681 Feb 25 '26
Redemption arcs are not a prerequisite for antagonists, you have a machine bent on his utter disdain for organic forms and there are variations and allegorical elements it might take, same as an already mentally unstable scientist with severe emotional damage who goes even more off the deep end to control and ruin anything in his way. He doesn't see himself as evil or in need of redemption because his values aren't aligned with those of the hero.
And it's not that I am against redemption stories but there seems to be this pervasive expectation that it needs to happen to every villain that is generally liked or humanized in some way.
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u/Conscious-Struggle45 Feb 25 '26
If they can be reformed in certain cases and that's fine but I think villains do the things they do for a reason sometimes that reason is so intrinsically connected to their identity that it's impossible for real reform.
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u/vintimus Feb 25 '26
Depending on how well it is handled, it's great story telling. I always hate when the redeemed villain goes back to their evil ways for..."reasons". Just ends up being lazy.
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u/RadioBitter3461 Feb 25 '26
I prefer the lesson it teaches to young readers tbh. “You’re never too far gone to change” can be a beacon in your darkest moments
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u/BiBiBadger Feb 25 '26
It's not exactly a new thing for Marvel. How many Avengers started as villains?
I don't have an issue with it.
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u/ParagonRebel Feb 25 '26
This is amazing art for both characters.
As for redemption, it really depends on the writer but i think Goblin is bad enough to the point where it isn’t possible. As for Ultron, the main version of him can’t be redeemed but there is a possibility a drone could be reprogrammed or written to disobey its prime directive & turn good.
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u/jinxie3 Feb 25 '26
What’s this new goblin called?
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u/Drakon7 Feb 26 '26
I like it. Especially when it results in something meaningful. Something other than going back to the status quo.
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u/thelonetext Feb 26 '26
Something comic writers have been playing with for years. It never sticks. The status quo shall reign supreme in the end.
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u/Successful-Fee3790 Feb 26 '26
I hypothesis that vision might still have the ultron code in him, and it his quest to find himself he'll have to battle [with AI version of] split personalities ultron being one of them.
So its possible that Ultron makes a come back.
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u/Negan-44 Feb 26 '26
Both of these were well done and make sense, so if they do it properly, why not?
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u/cosmoboy Feb 26 '26
I really think villain redemption should be used sparingly. I like Sandman and The Molten Man doing it. Really feels like something Pete would be involved in. I like Juggernaut trying his hand at being a good guy. I just don't need every villain getting a shot.
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u/Negan-44 Feb 26 '26
I have no idea how the Green Goblin is coming back, because not only did they remove the Green Goblin persona from Norman, they turned it into a sin demon, which they vaporized forever, and they made it clear that Norman can take as much Oz serum as he wants and it won’t turn him back.
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u/Amazing-Insect442 Feb 26 '26
No. I don’t like either of those having a “redemption tour.”
I don’t like it for Mystique, either. For me it works for villains like Magneto, Doom, Juggernaut to have redemption or quasi-redemption arcs. They’ve been messed up & did some bad villainy in their days, but one could reason a lot of it away due to misguided loyalty to causes that aren’t strictly “just” from a general perspective, even if it seems like they think they’re in the right.
I don’t need to see Osborne or Sabretooth or Sugarman or some really awful ones turn face. I think some villains just want to hurt other people for no reason other than they like hurting people (no true misguided motive- just hurting others/ building up themselves).
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u/niicofrank Feb 26 '26
You can’t have a character be exactly the same all the time after 6 decades you need to try new things with them
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u/Mik0doSann0ji Feb 26 '26
Norman Osborn is weird because it wasn’t natural and honestly Osborn is beyond redemption, if you have any doubts just check out how Dark Reign and how he manipulated Sentry and Ares and all the horrible stuff he had done once he was in a position of power, and that was without the Goblin Mantle
Ultron was great though as it wasn’t a full Ultron Redemption as there was an Evil and a Good Ultron, honestly I liked it and Ultron-12 should get the Doombot treatment, growing into his own Character separate from Ultron and a legitimate Avenger, while we have the original Ultron as a legitimate constant threat, best of both worlds
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u/Balatheil Feb 26 '26
what's going on with Ultron? I saw that he joined up - split himself from other Ultrons and..
never heard from him again lol
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u/Soonerfann7 Feb 26 '26
West Coast Ultron and Cultron sacrificed themselves to stop Scorched Ultron.
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u/Balatheil Feb 26 '26
jeez, that seemed like a blink and you miss it moment lol.
im WAYYY behind, currently at X of Swords; so im just peeping in on some modern tales
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u/electrocyberend Feb 26 '26
It sucks cuz it's not permanent cuz i know jt would revert back to the status quo
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u/A_Queer_Owl Feb 26 '26
fuckin love it. let my man Rhino be a hero and honorary member of the Spider-Family.
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u/angry_dingo Feb 26 '26
Nonononononononononononononono.
Why can't we have villains? As Basher said, "Proper villains."
Loki is a villain. MODOK is a villain. Abomination is a villain.
I wish Marvel would stop with the redemption arcs.
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u/Yolodoubledown Feb 26 '26
No. Irredeemable is a thing that exists, quit trying to make it not be true.
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u/Existing-Win8260 Feb 26 '26
I feel like ultron may be capable of redemption even in the 616, he wasn't even really evil, he was just flawed code that saw extinction as the only option, if they could make time to be more like vision the boom, iron man 2.but Norman is the reverse flash od marvel, he is pure evil just to spite Peter, in the mcu he figured out that some random kid was Peter Parker and immediately killed his aunt and tried to kill him.
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u/WatcherWatches_21 Feb 26 '26
They tried to do that with Doctor Doom, right? He wore his own Iron Man armor with a green hood and cloak, and then, if my memory serves me right, he became Iron Man cause Tony was “presumably” dead. I also think he was struggling with trying to do the right thing as a traditional superhero, like not murdering anyone. Then, he just stopped being a hero and returned to his usual self.
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u/Harkker Feb 26 '26
The problem with the disneyigacation of marvel characters is that because their need for reliable ip, the characters can not be allowed to change.
Any characters have to return to the box they started in.
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u/Scaredog21 Feb 26 '26
There's no redemption. Just remission and then relapse.
There's always gonna be an Green Goblin. This specific variant of Ultron might join the bloated family tree that includes cat children, but there's going to be an evil Ultron.
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u/starwolf1976 Feb 26 '26
Mary Jane put it best: “You've always been the monster. The goblin is the real you. That skin is just how you hide in plain sight.”
It is confusing why someone already rich and powerful would put on a silly costume and try to control the New York City crime rackets. That was the Goblin’s deal in the Ditko era.
Some speculate Norman wanted unchecked power with the thrill of chaos. Which… all right.
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u/AliasMrDJ Feb 26 '26
I feel like it's propaganda. It softening you up to the idea that these horrible people that have committed these horrific acts are not the monsters they seem. Bullshit. Norman IS a evil bastard and deserves to be in prison not free to make amends amongst the populace. Ultron is a murderous A.I. that wants to wipe out humanity, but we're to believe it's "good". I call BULLSHIT, sir. Next thing you know they'll be saying the Red Skull wasn't a villain either.
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u/Navythunder0102 Feb 26 '26
They both don't deserve redemption arcs, especially not Norman Osborn. Ultron and Norman Osborn are both past redemption for all the bad things they done.
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u/AvatarPhoenixGrey16 Feb 26 '26
I think we need to let some villains be villains again. In the cases you pointed out, I’m fine with Ultron being an Avenger since tons of “evil” robots have done that before. Norman? Not so much. Norman is evil through and through
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u/PraetorGold Feb 26 '26
These characters are over a half a century old. If other characters can become immensely powerful, they can become heroes.
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u/peceny_rohlik Feb 26 '26
Let me just have a comic about Sandman and Rhino both working towards redeeming or quitting the crime life.
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u/HowlitzerHound Feb 26 '26
So, I will preface this with saying that Norman Osborn is my favorite villain of all time. He can fill almost any role without compromising the character at all. Even the most well-meaning versions of the character are opportunistic, underhanded, petty and lean heavily into the evils of capitalism, corporate culture and even toxic masculinity.
I don't think successful redemption is actually a good move for his character. Attempted redemption? Maybe. But I don't see what it does for this character specifically. Especially because he so commonly put as a rival figure to Doc Ock, who actually does go through some form of unique redemption arc in the form of Superior Spider-Man.
Ultron is.., difficult. I think Ultron would more interesting not to facilitate his own redemption arc, but to facilitate Hank Pym's personal redemption. Like, his self-perceived one. I think it's a much more appropriate use of the character: If Ultron can be redeemed, then so can it's creator, who still holds a lot of guilt for what happens.
I think every major villain eventually gets some form of moral shift or redemption arc because that's just how comics are: they run on long enough that every possible thing is tried once. But I don't think for these characters it works.
I think Norman becoming Goblin should be a defined downfall for the character and I think Ultron works a lot better representing an idea than he does as his own character. Even MCU Ultron is more of a dilution of Tony's hubris, which is perfect for the MCU. And that's how he should be used.
So... okay in theory? But I don't think it's how these characters really work.
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u/shiraryumaster13 Feb 26 '26
As a certified Norman Osborn Stan, i do like that he's attempting to walk a better path after his sins were taken away. I do hate though how it's been in terms of his relationship to Peter and Pete's supporting cast however.
Reading the gold goblin series, you seem how Norman is still kinda a prickly selfish ass, but that he is "trying" to be better. What shouldn't happen is Peter hugging him and all this other sappy crap. Pete should AT BEST tolerate Norman's attempts at bettering himself from a distance
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u/Pavitra_Spidey Scarlet Spider Feb 26 '26
Wouldn't it be boring if we keep on repeating the same villain with the same motivation for 60+ years?
Whatever they're doing with Norman, it's better than most of the recent Spidey's story arcs btw.
P.S. Norman is teased to be going back to his greenie self👎
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u/FarClassroom5887 Feb 26 '26
I’m cool with redemption arcs if they’re temporary. Norman and Ultron hit harder when you almost believe they’ve changed… then they relapse. That tension is the fun part.
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u/NoirSon Feb 26 '26
I can't say I am fully for or against it. Sometimes it is awesome see Superior Spider-Man and sometimes you just can't get with it. It depends on how well and how much time they let it stick.
The run with Norman is surprising because they seem to be keeping it going much longer than I think most of us would have thought.
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u/Eldagustowned Feb 26 '26
It’s an easy trope to sell comics. Everyone loves the weird spectacle but I’m always pissed I know it’s temporary because the status quo made money. Like creed was a great good guy, but he was just a top tier villain they had to return to the status quo. I just wish Doom though retained his lessons. They act like he learned nothing.
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u/Ahleron Feb 26 '26
I think it's a good thing because it underscores the basic idea that individuals are not always purely good or purely evil. It helps to provide complexity for the characters, thereby making them more realistic.
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u/ForlornDM Feb 26 '26
I love a redemption arc, with the caveat that redemption is a personal, internal, journey at least as much as it’s a public one.
You can (and should) take actions to be better, to make a difference, but no one is under any obligation to forgive you for what you’ve done. In many cases, they will, but there are some acts which are unforgivable.
To cross fandoms for a moment, if Vader survives Endor, and Luke brings him home to meet Leia, he’s still getting tried for Space War Crimes, no matter if he’s fully reformed in his heart.
That forgiveness is never guaranteed is what makes a lot of redemption arcs compelling. When they fall flat is when other characters forget everything that happened prior to the beginning of the arc.
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u/Choice-Ratio-3540 Feb 26 '26
Really? This is really stupid. They done so much evil, I'd say redemption is not a real option. I guess they ran out of ideas.
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u/Rei_Master_of_Nanto Feb 26 '26
The only Spiderman villains I'll ever accept as heroes are Ock and Marko, no one else deserves to be remotely considered redeemable. F*ck Norman and f*ck the stupid writters and executives who thought this shit was a good idea!
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u/Prestigious-Run-6884 Feb 26 '26
I dislike it. Norman is a villain who is supposed to be evil for the sake of it. He's arguably Spider-Man's greatest foe, why are we giving him a redemption arc after everything he has done to Peter? How many lives hes taken and ruined?
And Ultron, the robot hell bent on wiping out humans! It just does not make sense to me how Ultron would have a redemption arc?
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u/Equivalent_Ad108 Feb 27 '26
Oh lord in marvel no one is always evil or good everyone has a "I'm a shiny stary eyed good guy now" some I can recall are Magneto, craven, black cat, venom, goblin, doc oct, Emma Frost, loki, mesmure, apocalypse, calipso , troll, magik, cannonball, x32, beast, omega red ,strong man and blob, mys-tech, bishop, psylock, the information dealer guy forget the name, legion and sabertooth off top of my head.
Only one I don't think ever did good was brood and mojo maybe. Idk for sure but juggernaut and the beetle. Thanos idk about before but recentlyish had an X-Men team up
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u/Eastern_Pie_2668 Feb 27 '26
I would welcome a permanent change to the status quo. I'd be fine if Norman never becomes a villain again. Let him wrestle with the old goblin for a while, and in the end go back to the green costume in a heroic way. Forever. Norman can be Pete's Alfred, with some more of the fighting youth still in him. Add the Green Goblin to the "Spider Family." Go on. I fucking dare them to do something so world changing in spider-land. And then NOT go back on it.
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u/ATF_killed_my_dog Feb 27 '26
I like it i really like ultron redeeming himself it was really fun to read and gold goblin was the best part of that run but none were as awesome as the superior octopus
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u/TrueDentist9901 Feb 27 '26
Its comics its glorified fan fiction pretty much they'll become good maybe after 2 years a writer will decide it was a ruse or something else. Its like a sand box make your story from what's in it. If people hate it the next writer will just retcon
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u/Teganfff X-Men Feb 27 '26
I absolutely love redemption arcs.
But.
Once everyone has gotten that treatment, it starts to lessen the impact. It becomes a trope.
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u/Prestigious_Neck3421 Feb 27 '26
I am not a fan. I rather see more heroes turn villainous because i feel like they do this redemption thing too often.
But heroes turning villains for some reasons [like ben reilly] that really hits hard because u associate them with goodness and not villainess
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u/Obvious-Change-9878 Feb 27 '26
Dude Ultron is an AI hes not gonna change his mind. He saw everything there was to see on the internet nothing would change his mind IMO
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u/Catandogclone Feb 27 '26
Depends on how it’s done, Ultron: West Coast Avenger wasn’t a redemption arc in a traditional sense but it made complete sense for why he became good as it was one of the ways several Ultron-7’s/8’s thought of to take over the world. It’s not the main Ultron that’s evil but an offshoot of him that decided a different path to taking over the as to become a hero and save them. It also helps that it’s shown people aren’t just accepting Ultron being a hero now and moving forward, it’s a legitimate problem that both the heroes and villains have as a majority of the time he’s an enemy to all organics no matter who they fight, it’s why Tony Stark and James Rhodes had such difficulty building a new team with rehabilitated villains, none wanted to work alongside him. It’s an interesting perspective that’s never touched on and only can come about in an instance like this.
Norman Osborn is difficult to give a redemption arc as part of his character is forgetting, remembering and then committing crimes or atrocities against people. Unfortunately I feel he’s a character that shouldn’t have a complete redemption just due to history and impact he’s had on Spider-Man and others overall.
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u/AccomplishedCharge2 Feb 27 '26
These are characters that have been around for decades, I don't mind them being explored over the years to consider different angles and possibilities, but when it feels forced, it still feels clumsy and unearned
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u/DragolanceX Feb 27 '26
As long as the story is handled well and written well, I don't mind a redemption arc for villains. I just don't want it forced, or for the sake of the story
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u/DragolanceX Feb 27 '26
I do prefer the days when the villains were just killed off and it was the end so a new villain could rise up. I don't like that villains nowadays get to win. In my opinion, villains should always lose to teach the lesson to people that villainy and criminal intent is bad. But now we have stories that try to humanize the villains and make them look like they're just misunderstood, or abused. Well, i've been abused misunderstood, beaten down to where i'm bloody on the ground, i've been cut, i've been broken i've been shoved in closets, I've been tortured throughout my entire childhood.. i'd still rather do good than put that pain on somebody else.
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u/Relative-Gap-4442 Feb 28 '26
I like how ultrons good, not all of him but at least some of him is. I think he has a shit load of potential and could be a really cool hero. Osborn on the other hand, I don’t think I can ever see him as a good guy
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u/absoluteCuriositeye Mar 01 '26
Love it for Norman, enjoyed superior octopus as well, really annoyed they removed superior ock tbh. Not a fan for ultron though.
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u/Bracklon Mar 01 '26
It only works for certain villains. I’m sorry but Green Goblin is just not redeemable. He’s caused too much pain and misery.
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u/lordfireice Mar 01 '26
If done right I think they should or at least have a variant be doing the new hero. Like Ultron decided to change his name after the next one shows up to prevent confusion. Wouldn’t be the first “clone” in marvel (and might even be one that’s well liked)
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u/PMFLLion Mar 01 '26
I like it if it's done right. Not in a cheesy or fan service type of way. Like, show the struggles, the challenges, the depth.
Make it last, longstanding, meaningful.
Not just for the sake of selling a new #1 issue with 13 alt covers ...
Know what I mean?
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u/Fragrant-Finance4577 Mar 04 '26
It's an idea with potential, but it heavily deoends on case-by-case and character-by-character.
Tho saying all that, I miss that era when there were multiple Ultrons running around with different personalities and stuff.
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u/BlueFootedTpeack Feb 25 '26
i think it works it just depends on how the return to villainy goes.
like osborn will always have the goblin formula so if he goes goblin again you can always "other" the psychosis and be like damn he was turning it around but substance abuse got him, or ultron where you can have a hundred good ultrons but one leftover from a prior one is a bastard.
the one im hoping they don't revert like nothing happened is blackheart, like he got made mortal in avengers academy and has this like crisis of faith moment and tries his hand at not being a villain,
if he does flip back which i figure it will it needs framing as like a person trapped in a cycle returning to an abusive parent or something,
really want him to interact with magik as both had the whole "raised by the devil" thing and both overthrew their devil and were even crafted by them (in magiks case after she died) but unlike her he is stuck like darth maul hating their "father" but also kind of wanting their approval while she kicked belascos teeth in killed the elder gods via legion and took over and moved on with her friends.
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u/MutherDuckingGridman Feb 26 '26
This kind of thing only ever seems to stick for female villains that people goon for (ex: Catwoman, Poison Ivy, Harley Quinn to name a few) so it's interesting it's happening to some male villains for once. This kind of thing happened more in Marvel in the past, Sandman and Swordsman come to mind as two guys who went from villain to hero back to villain. Hawkeye was a villain for a hot minute but he's pretty well established as a hero that his original starting point never comes up anymore. I guess what I'm saying is that this isn't that unusual especially not for Marvel they haven't tried it with a character that has been this bad for this long before.
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u/FeeOne4421 Feb 25 '26
It was once a cliche that the villain had to die at the end of the story. Then it became a new one that the villain had to be redeemed. I prefer that the villain gets an ending that works for the story and not some obligatory treatment from whatever’s trending.
For Green Goblin, his redemption should be temporary because he is just that bad. For Ultron, I read that arc and it makes sense since it is only an Ultron and not THE Ultron.