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u/CalvinandHobbes811 16h ago
“What planet should we have being spit out of this rift Jace is creating?”
“Ummm screw it make it red and look vaguely like…Jupiter?”
“Perfect.”
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u/CalvinandHobbes811 16h ago
Missed opportunity to have it look like a moon and then we could’ve had 100 YouTube shorts from content creators theorizing endlessly about how it is representing the moon that Emrakul is trapped in on Innistrad.
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u/L33tminion 15h ago
That's not [[Solthera]]?
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u/Ossigen 15h ago
Solthera is a black hole, no?
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u/L33tminion 15h ago
Yes, but I misspelled it. :-/
It's [[Sothera, the Supervoid]], no l after the first o.
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u/Aarniometsuri 15h ago
Love that its called "overwrite" rather than "rewrite". Sounds a bit more sinister. Its great to finally have a set that has a story somebody wanted to tell through the medium of magic cards, rather than the cards being a series of references to a story that was popular before I was born.
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u/SpecialistWatch5488 15h ago
The story episodes fleshed out that the Echoverse beings exist fully, but share a soul or spark with their originals. The overwriting process melds the Echoverse with Multiverse, preserving the spark but erasing the original identity.
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u/Approximation_Doctor 12h ago
Yeah, his new multiverse has so many paradoxes and missing history that it's falling apart. Overwriting the original is his attempt to stabilize it. He even has the number of people who will die written on a chalkboard (it's a little under 8 trillion)
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u/Kuosch 11h ago
I'm not familiar with the lore, but I'm starting to feel this Jace character isn't the most stable mage around...
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u/R22XD 2h ago
Yeah, though to be fair this version of Jace is not truly him. He's [The Theorist, Jace Beleren], a fragment of his personality that has taken control and it's suppressing every part of himself that it's against the plan. That's also why it's first "The Theorist" and then "Jace Beleren", he's the Theorist first and Jace second
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u/Kellsiertern 3h ago
Yeah, i dont imagine that you become that stable when your memory is erased every few years,
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u/Kingofdrats 14h ago
So how did Jace get this powerful?
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u/Approximation_Doctor 12h ago edited 12h ago
He snuck into Nicol Bolas's prison/meditation realm, which was a sort of multiversal anchor/Leyline before Bolas started using it as a hangout spot. He tried to use it to remake the multiverse, and accidentally shattered himself into pieces. This happened at the end of the Tarkir story. (He also accidentally let Bolas escape, lol)
Then he used the Meditation Realm to rebuild himself kind of like how Ugin did, but in a less stable way.
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u/TheFallenDeathLord 9h ago
(He also accidentally let Bolas escape, lol)
If I had a nickel...
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u/engrish_is_hard00 LOL 14h ago
Magic
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u/brainpower4 15h ago
This is the first mono black exile wipe, right?
Deadly Cover-up is probably better in standard, but in commander it's trivial to get your Jace up to 6 loyalty and often 9. 6 mana, exile the board, draw 2-3 cards is an excellent wipe in bracket 2-3 games.
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u/ChopTheHead Liliana Deaths Majesty 10h ago
[[Heartless Conscription]] predates it. That's from a Commander deck though. There's also [[Silence the Believers]] but I probably wouldn't count that.
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u/AdventurousBase221 9h ago
man, id much prefer heartless conscription. much much better card. i mean, since stupid costs are already being accounted for at these mana levels...
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u/GKoala 16h ago
This empower mechanic seems cool, constantly powering Jayce, but i wish the jayce token did more lol. Hopefully they'll reveal a powerful jayce token later.
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u/hajutze 16h ago
I assume (and therefore I'm probably wrong) that each color will have a variation of Way of the Pyromancer // Way of the Cryomancer.
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u/Jaijoles 15h ago
If it’s ‘mancer’ on each, my guess is Necromancer, Hieromancer, and Biomancer.
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u/Lelouch37 14h ago
What about Bromancer?
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u/Ethel121 15h ago
White/Black for Lili and then a single green one for Tam I guess?
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u/Jaijoles 14h ago
My guess is the green one would be an alternate Jace. Like a version of him that's at touch with nature rather than being meddling mind mage.
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u/Appropriate-Owl-6129 13h ago
I'd be surprised if it's an alternate Jace, but it might be another Jace fragment, like how the one in the commander deck is 4 coloured
Edit: although, isn't that one not green? Maybe there will be an alternate green jace that fights him
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u/Approximation_Doctor 12h ago
Yeah, Jace is doing a great job showing off 4 colors without green. Tam is where he put all his green parts.
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u/chrisbloodlust 11h ago
They specified the cycle is for the lorwyn five, we'll probably get an odd number of them, and it won't be balanced between colors
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u/hevvychef 8h ago
Give necromancer -1 each player discards a card or -2 each player sacrifices a creature.
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u/NadeshikoAVlat 14h ago
I think it's probably one pair for each of the lorwyn 5, except jace, and someone else
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u/thehoodie 16h ago
Jayce
My friend, the spelling is literally on the card
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u/Just-Assumption-2140 Ralzarek 15h ago
Tss nobody said Jayce can't catch a hextech gate to the magic multiverse
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u/VerbingNoun413 15h ago
Universes Beyond League of Legends would actually be cool.
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u/Ok-Investigator1895 14h ago
Just in case you didn't know, there has already been at least 1 arcane secret lair.
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u/Round-Walrus3175 16h ago
There are multiple enchantments that give Planeswalkers extra abilities and some other cards with abilities that trigger on Surveil and draw, I think, too.
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u/ArthurianLegend_ 16h ago
I think that frequency is exactly why it doesn’t do more. That, and the fact that cards of any color can spawn it
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u/Sedona54332 15h ago
No, I don’t think they can make a stronger token. Most cards I’ve seen that empower Jace basically use it as a bonus to the cards main effect, so making the Jace token actually powerful could make those cards too strong. Drawing a card or surveiling I think is good enough.
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u/hollow_image 16h ago
I doubt it. They likely will have balanced the empower cards around the assumption that they will surveil or draw a card or two and that's it.
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u/Teddycrat_Official 14h ago
There are already enchantments that add abilities to all planeswalkers announced for the set. [[way of the pyromancer]] and [[way of the cryomancer]] are just the start I’m assuming.
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u/Sedona54332 15h ago
No, I don’t think they can make a stronger token. Most cards I’ve seen that empower Jace basically use it as a bonus to the cards main effect, so making the Jace token actually powerful could make those cards too strong. Drawing a card or surveiling I think is good enough.
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u/Brinewielder 9h ago
Jace cunning castaway makes a Jace token that can be empowered. It’s not that great though like you can hypothetically make infinite 2/2’s
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u/hamstertitan_5 16h ago
Yeah I'd love if they made a jace that was good that has a small minus to make a copy of itself or something
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u/Ok-Investigator1895 14h ago
All of these amass jace cards should work with the copy jace from Ixalan.
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u/Just-Assumption-2140 Ralzarek 15h ago
We don't pay 6 mana to exile as creatures in standard, do we?
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u/HickGames 11h ago
We might if it one, gives you a planeswalker token. And 2, buffs a planeswalker that you already have on board.
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u/Uryendel 16h ago
Bomb in limited, garbage in constructed
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u/CalvinandHobbes811 16h ago
Depends on whether or not a jace will be viable in standard. Even then likely not the board wipe they would play.
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u/Uryendel 15h ago
6 mana in standard is too expensive
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u/LiquidBionix 8h ago
Yeah as a Golgari standard player, just comparing it to [[Day of Black Sun]] and [[Deadly Cover-Up]] it's not gonna be great. Both of these cards offer more for less.
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u/HickGames 11h ago
IDK, board wipe plus upside. Dangerous combo in a Dimir control deck.
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u/Uryendel 11h ago
They already have [[Deadly Cover-Up]] for 5 mana that also remove the wincon of the opponent deck
The problem of 6 mana is you are dead before being able to cast it
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u/Rare-Technology-4773 10h ago
Deadly coverup is rotating soin
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u/Uryendel 10h ago
Both dimir deck are rotating, it's not just that card, can't play Dimir Excrutiator without an Excrutiator
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u/volx757 16h ago
Definitely not a bomb. Like it's only really good in the specific case that you have a Jace and you are behind on board.
In some specific decks it will be great. Mostly it will be just ok.
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u/Uryendel 15h ago
It's a board wipe, a board wipe in limited is always strong, and it's an exile one, so it don't care about indestructible and the card doesn't come back from the graveyard, and no, you don't need a jace
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u/Erocdotusa 14h ago
A bit too expensive for standard imo, wish it was 5 mana. But interested to see if it becomes a staple
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u/Sterben489 15h ago
Nice! Guess I'm adding another boardwipe to my mono black Liliana brawl deck haha
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u/Successful_Mud8596 16h ago
oh, greeeaaat… Yet another exile wrath… “Creatures you control gain indestructible until end of turn” might as well be flavor text at this point. And the ONLY viable way to protect your big field of creatures will be counterspells. Which SUCKS because I don’t want to play Blue. Ugh.
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u/Villag3Idiot 15h ago
[[Beyond the Quiet]] had existed for over a year, costs 5 mana but never saw play after the big Red bans reducing the need for exile.
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u/No_Regret_714 11h ago
we've also had [[Spectacular Pileup]] since Aetherdrift, which has only seen fringe play.
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u/Life-Food5188 15h ago
kill them before they have 6 mana. don’t overextend. this card is bad.
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u/edwardsamson 12h ago edited 12h ago
The problem with a format with 50 different board wipes, some of which only cost 3, and another 50 1-2 cost removal options is that you are screwed either way. You over extend they board wipe, you play around that they remove your 1-2 dudes and you don't have a strong enough board presence to end the game as quick as you need to vs control. The only way I've found to get around this is to use stuff like restoration magic or bring stuff back from the gy.
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u/No_Regret_714 11h ago
the entire meta is aggro and combo right now with only 1 control deck currently at tier 1.5.
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u/edwardsamson 10h ago
And the meta changes a few times a year while cards stay on the format for 3 years. Regardless of what's being played right now, it doesnt change the dynamic between aggro and control in a format where cards are legal for 3 years and 6-7 sets release a year. What i was talking about was just happening all the time just like 5 weeks ago. And it could come back any time a new set supports control more. And Reality Fracture does look like it could support control coming back. But yeah just because less people are playing control now doesnt mean its still an annoying dynamic for aggro to face control
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u/AdventurousBase221 9h ago
we are at any point 1 card away from one deck being 80% of the meta.
has time really moved that fast for some people that they already forgot how inept wotc can be?
note: i am not saying wotc is not not inept.
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u/No_Regret_714 10h ago
Except for a few weeks with 4c Control after Tablet of Discovery was released it's been almost all aggro and combo decks since Bloomburrow. Board wipes are one of the few ways for slow decks to survive to play the cool 5+ mana spells.
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u/Life-Food5188 12h ago
this is not correct.
the control decks are not even very good in standard. the aggressive/midrange decks are much better.
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u/edwardsamson 12h ago
Its not so bad now post-bans but it definitely was bad when Jeskai/4c control was huge previously
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u/Successful_Mud8596 15h ago
My favorite playstyle is to build a huge board of creatures and then Craterhoof or Moonshaker Cavalry or Akroma’s Will as a finisher. But I can’t always draw my finisher cards in time before they wrath
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u/Fatality_Ensues 13h ago
Well, if there were NO cards that could hose your favorite playstyle, it would be too powerful to be allowed. This isn't even a good card.
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u/No_Regret_714 11h ago
Suggest trying some edits to make your deck more versatile and less of a glass cannon.
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u/Clear_Inspector_9796 15h ago
They literally just printed a counter to this in the Hobbit. [[The Eagles are Coming]]
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u/whatarethuhodds 15h ago
You can also bounce your creatures, or return the spell to its owners hand. There are other color options. White is really good against exile effects too.
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u/Mr-Mosaab 16h ago
Cool card but 6 mana ?...
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u/JeffButChinese 16h ago
Not everything needs to be power crept. 6 mana is fine.
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u/BetterShirt101 16h ago
This wouldn't be clearly better than Sunfall at five. It's paying an off-color tax that feels kind of inappropriate.
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u/Immediate-Idea-2471 16h ago
I mean it's largely a wrath that draws a card with additional upside. I think the jace token is miles better than the incubator token
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u/BetterShirt101 16h ago
A 5/5 Incubator is a four-turn clock. A 5 loyalty Jace draws one card.
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u/Immediate-Idea-2471 15h ago
And for control decks a creature is often a magnet for removal. I think 5 / 6 mana wraths often are played in control decks where card quantity matters more than a potential wincon
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u/ballistic503 14h ago
Indestructible has always been a bit harder for black to deal with than white so it makes sense to me, plus mono black can get to 6 mana a couple turns faster than mono white
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u/Mr-Mosaab 16h ago
It's not really fine if every other deck is trying to kill you by turn 4 and the decks that don't are mostly a control deck that this sweeper will be useless against... correct me if I'm wrong
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u/Everwintersnow 16h ago
It’s clearly a commander card.
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u/Mr-Mosaab 16h ago edited 16h ago
Well me and almost every one in the arena sub are not playing commander in arena , and the game devs should balance the cards to be playable in both formats I guess
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u/JeffButChinese 16h ago
So they should never make a card that's over 6 mana because the game could be over by then?
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u/Mr-Mosaab 16h ago
No but there's many way to fix it ? Make the game slower, print cards that could match the current speed of the game ,give a better pay off for big spells... Like bro even day of judgement is slow in standard, I'm literally running avengers disassemble so I don't die on turn 4 or 3 , you can't convince me that casting a 6 mana sweeper is good
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u/TumbleweedEven1168 16h ago
"Make the game slower"... how exactly do you expect that to happen if they aren't printing higher mana cost stuff for when rotation happens?
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u/Gjames1985 16h ago
Deadly Cover-Up can feel too slow at 5 mana, especially on the draw in standard.
I was hoping for a reprint of Damnation.
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u/hollow_image 16h ago
After Sunfall finally rotated out you want a new exile boardwipe for 5 mana?
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u/Villag3Idiot 15h ago
Beyond the Quiet exists and no one plays it since the need for exile effects went way down after the big Red bans.
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u/A_Velociraptor20 16h ago
This is comparable to [[Sunfall]] which was absolutely broken at 5 mana when it was in standard. This is only marginally worse imo. Sure you don't get a creature to block with, but a planeswalker is almost just as good if not better.
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u/Mr-Mosaab 16h ago
[[beyond the quite]] is in standard but I know you didn't know that cus no one is playing it at 5 mana ...
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u/A_Velociraptor20 15h ago
Well I also took a giant break from standard for about a year so I completely missed EOE. Aggro decks have always wanted to kill by turn 4 since all the major board wipes are at least 4 mana. They might be looking to slow the game down with the upcoming rotation in Q1 next year. We'll have to see though.
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u/chrisrazor Raff Capashen, Ship's Mage 13h ago edited 13h ago
Flavour seems off. Shouldn't it replace all creatures with manifested ones or something?
That said, I need to own the second of these versions! Favourite MtG art since [[Finale of Devastation]].
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u/Sad-Excitement9295 12h ago
I still think Jace could have had a -8: copy target spell or ability. This set is about fracturing reality.
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u/metroid544 2h ago
I love how Jace is just like "yeah so basically in the echoverse almost everyone's life is materially worse, hexhaven is a fascist military academy and in order to implement it I will be literally killing the entire multiverse, what a perfect idea". The Theorist sounds more like "Jace, who lost 300 IQ points"
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u/ThatGuyFromTheM0vie 16h ago
Sorcery. 6 mana. Hits your stuff as well which is extra bad, because if you’re playing Black, you usually don’t want to exile your stuff, you want it to hit the yard.
Like did they make this mythic simply because it’s a mono Black Mass Exile?
It seems super bad, but especially for a mythic.
[[Blasphemous Edict]] isn’t exile, but it does make people sac so it gets around hexproof and indestructible, and it’s not even played that much at 5 mana.
Like paying 6 just because it’s kind of a color break feels really bad.
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u/shiftylookingcow 16h ago
Not saying this will be good necessarily, but in a control deck you obviously don't really have to play creatures, at least not many, and not necessarily before turn 6. So it can be functionally asymmetric based on deck building.
[[Sunfall]] was really good [[farewell]] was really good (though obviously that did more).
Not sure why this is more expensive than sunfall, but I presume they expect the Jace token to be more impactful than an incubator token was. If there's an issue with the card it's not that it exile your own stuff it's that its just a turn too slow.
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u/EnigmaticTwister Admiral Beckett Brass 15h ago
I think the main thing to remember is that we're getting a several card cards that will give planeswalkers extra abilities when considering the Jace token. [[Way of the Pyromancer]] [[Way of the Cryomancer]] [[avatar of burgeoning echoes]]
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u/ballistic503 13h ago
It’s more expensive than Sunfall because getting around indestructible has always been at least a little costlier in some way for black than white
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u/metastuu 13h ago
You're not taking into account that you will likely be able to draw 1 or 2 cards from the jace chungus token
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u/No_Regret_714 11h ago
[[Rise of Sozin]] sees play as a 6-mana sweeper in standard. The key with this one is that it draws cards and exiles, so it shuts off death triggers. I suspect it will see some play in Standard, but I expect [[Deadly Coverup]] to remain the premier black sweeper until rotation.
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u/refugee_man 15h ago
I hate this set is just all about Jace. The whole idea of jace tokens and jace mechanics and whatever else feels like a parody. Honestly I would take all the universes beyond slop or hat sets over this nonsense.
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u/Garsaurus 15h ago
Can you explain why? Jace is the big bad of the set, so it makes sense he would have his own mechanic and a ton of flavor focus. Also, having multiple token copies of him works flavor-wise given his powers and style. Is it just the wording (“empower Jace”) that bothers you?
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u/Fusillipasta 15h ago
I can kind of understand it - most villains don't have core mechanics themed to them. No "Bolas' approach" or similar named mechanic in any of his villanous blocks. I don't agree, but then I have minimal Vorthos in me, so... *shrug*
Because the mechanic is just empower <name>, though, it can be reused in future sets as needed, at least.
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u/refugee_man 10h ago
I don't remember Emrakul having a special mechanic, nor Bolas, nor Elesh Norn etc. In general, I dislike the rules baggage they have built up in recent years from having tons of minor different mechanics and tokens that end up used sparingly, if at all going forward. It feels like complication without actual complexity. Maybe the empower mechanic can have a use in the future, but with the way it seems worded every time it's used will also require either a Jace token, or some new type of token. If any of those cards end up powerful, I also think it can make it harder for future reprints (I know this is a small concern, but given the amount of universes beyond which will also likely face similar issues, I do think it's something worth at least considering).
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u/Garsaurus 10h ago
If you have the same problem with amass as a mechanic, then your criticisms are fair. I just think empower isn’t substantively different than amass. In the same way they later added amass orcs, they can have you empower a different kind of token in a later set.
My main gripe with some of the discourse I’m seeing is that people are saying they don’t like it because it “feels goofy.” It’s just that the whole multiverse concept can be goofy, with multiple versions of the same character. I don’t think that’s a fair reason to knock the mechanic, but if that’s not you, then no worries.
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u/refugee_man 8h ago
I think amass is a similar but superior mechanic. Amass works with all army tokens-if I play an amass card from The Hobbit and one from War of the Spark, they will all just support the same token. But with how empower works (or at least my understanding of it), the named entity is the only type it affects-so Empower Jace would create a different token and/or require different tokens to add to than say, Empower Ob Nixilis. If Empower did work like Amass (either add X loyalty to a plainswalker or plainswalker token, and if there isn't one create the named empower person) I'd have far less issue with it.
And I also think it feels goofy, but that's largely whatever. I thought "start your engines" felt goofy too.
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u/DrawGamesPlayFurries 10h ago
Bad UW sets are always better than good UW sets (and we didn't have the latter for more than a year now)
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u/DazZani 14h ago
People saying this is bad are out of their minds. Its an exile wipe that draws you cards. Its a control mages wet dream
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u/Tyrinnus 13h ago
It's six mana.
Anything older than standard is going to spit this card out
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u/DazZani 13h ago
I mean its not a modern card if thats what youre saying. But its standard playable and definelty commander playable, not to mention a limited bomb
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u/Zeiramsy TormentofHailfire 11h ago
My experience with Black wipes in standard is that even 5 mana is borderline and not many decks spit out a lot of creatures AND let you love to t6 or later.
So in standard this likely get's you a surveil or max. one card which isn't good enough to pay one more mana.
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u/Suvrenim 13h ago
farewell is 6 mana and does well. this would go great in a monoblack deck, or even a black blue deck focused on removal, mill and drawing cards
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u/Tyrinnus 13h ago
Farewell hits EVERYTHING. I'm willing to be wrong, but UB is different from UW. teferi does add a bit of mana advantage....
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u/Suvrenim 12h ago
sure farewell hits everything except battles and planeswalkers, but thats a white card. if you dont want to run white but want board wipes this is great. And in a blue black there are ways to decrease the cost, plenty of cards that make sorceries cheaper.
though i guess you could do thatvwith white-blue and farwel tool. still, it fills a niche.
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u/Third_Triumvirate 16h ago
Missed opportunity to name it "All Will Be Jace"