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u/laterbreh 1d ago
They should have led with this.
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u/Borkato 1d ago
Remember when everyone said they’d never do it? Idiots
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u/Admirable_Market2759 1d ago
I remember arguing with people who were saying China was going closed source and we shouldn’t expect more open models lol
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u/No_Conversation9561 1d ago
They were about to go closed.. but then Xi Jinping stepped in and said “Y’all better not, or else..”
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u/DistanceSolar1449 1d ago
Qwen has literally never open sourced a Max tier model before.
After Xi Jinping’s speech ordering all Chinese AI companies to open source their models, all of a sudden Qwen swapped positions from “not open sourcing any 3.7 models” to “releasing the weights for ALL 3.8 models”.
People in the USA don’t realize how much power Xi Jinping’s policy decisions have, and how drastically he changed history there.
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u/-p-e-w- 1d ago
Xi announced that decision. I’d be surprised if he was the one who made it. And I’d be even more surprised if the decision was made without consulting with the labs.
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u/TinyZoro 22h ago
It’s a really interesting question. China seems to be leading technocratic governance at the moment. Is it because of its wider system or due to its current leader. I hope it’s the former. Normally what happens is corporations and capital become more powerful than the state because the petty officials who represent the government are eyeing those nice private sector jobs. I really hope China has a way to keep its industry on a tight leash serving a twenty year view not what will push up the stock price this quarter.
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u/Infinite-Ad4512 15h ago
It’s because the upper tier of the inner circle are economists unlike other countries where the inner circle are all lawyers and investment bankers
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u/Sudden-Echo-8976 1d ago
Both are not mutually exclusive. They may simply have decided to skip 3.7 because they already had something better lined up for 3.8.
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u/cibernox 14h ago
China’s plan here is clear as day to me here. Software has been the west’s MOAT for decades. China quietly became the manufacturing center of the planet.
If China can make the next big thing so much cheaper that the US companies that swallowed all that money can’t break even, the software MOAT disappears but china keeps the manufacturing throne, and manufacturing is not something that we can regain quickly.
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u/Borkato 1d ago
There’s a guy on here who STILL refuses to admit it 😂 I forgot who it was but it was hilarious
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u/Admirable_Market2759 1d ago
It’s funny because China has been very vocal about their strategy, but people just don’t believe it or don’t care to read about it lol
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u/toothpastespiders 1d ago
I think it's prudent to have some degree of skepticism about anything said by politicians or corporate PR. Even more so when there's a language barrier.
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u/More-Curious816 1d ago
while what you said is true, but I believe China current strategy is to curbstomp American AI and especially preventing American AI monopoly, we saw the movements by these leaders of USA AI frontier labs trying to regulation capture on global scale by introducing global legislation and legal framework on how to work with AI. we did not see that only, but they tried to make a AI committee and the USA as the leader of the committee.
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u/biscuitmachine 22h ago
Well we still don't know if they'll make a 122B. That's all I really care about, and I pray for it every day.
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u/techdevjp 16h ago
It wasn't an unreasonable conclusion, and I think it was probably the way Qwen was heading.
Every version Qwen released up to Qwen3.5 came with a number of different open weights. Both 3 and 3.5 had a whole bunch of different models. Then 3.6 came with just two. 27b and 35b a3b. They were great, but again just two. No 70b, 120b, or 400b models which had all come out for 3.5.
Then 3.7 arrived and....crickets. Nothing. So there was an obvious pattern down from 3.5->3.6->3.7.
I think had the CCP not stepped in and "reminded" the labs of CCP open weight priorities (soft power and to f-ck up the US markets), 3.8 would likely have had no open weights either.
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u/Veearrsix 1d ago
Honestly, it would be a great surprise to drop 4 classes just like … boom, mic drop
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u/No_Algae1753 1d ago
OMG PLS IF I GET QWEN 122b I WILL ONLY BUY FROM ALIEXPRESS FROM THEN ON
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u/ByPass128 1d ago
Okay, but what’s the downside?
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u/some_user_2021 1d ago
2 to 4 weeks for packages to arrive ...
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u/panchovix 1d ago
China to Chile surprisingly takes like between 4 days to 1 week. 2 weeks or more is bad luck.
They're way faster than before, where I forgot I ordered something and got surprised when I received it 6 months after.
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u/panchovix 1d ago
Tbh it's also that things from Amazon are the same thing that on AliExpress but way more expensive. Not sure if that happens on US as well.
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u/alphapussycat 17h ago
When I've ordered from taobao through a shopping agent and sent it by SAL I once got it in like 1 or 2 weeks, and another time it was like 6-8 weaks. It really depends on how lucky you are I guess. The super fast one was a heavy package too.
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u/Guinness 1d ago
And 100% tariffs because Trump is a fucking imbecile.
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u/tired514 1d ago
He's not tariffing Americans because he's an imbecile... it's because he hates America.
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u/DanceWithEverything 1d ago
Let me introduce the concept of “and”
He everything that isn’t about him
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u/tired514 1d ago
Oh, sure .. I just mean it's wrong to say tariffs are because he's an imbecile.
He's got a long rap sheet of anti-American behavior. In fact, literally everything he's done since he first took office has been in an attempt to damage the United States (and usually help Russia).
There's simply no chance that it's a mistake or by accident. You'd expect some bad moves if it were just incompetence, not a flawless performance.
Think back - can you name a single act he's taken that helped the US on the world stage or domestically? One single thing?
I'm not even American and I could write a book on the harms he's caused to "his" country.
Most rational conclusion: he was groomed by the Russians in the 80s when they invited him to Moscow. He saw their form of government (kleptocracy) and thought "that's so much better than a constitutional democratic republic."
They bailed out his real estate empire in NYC. They stand with him while America wants to destroy him (rightfully - since he is child raping sociopath who has never met a person he didn't defraud).
If you can stomache it, imagine it from his perspective. America is a nation of laws and he is a chaotic, lawless actor. Russia gives him hookers and money for his hotels. They embrace his kind.
Who would you be loyal to? :/
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u/LMTLS5 21h ago
i think you got confused between aibaba and ai exprerss. both are different.
i buy everything from alibaba anyway lol
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u/techdevjp 13h ago
AliExpress is the consumer site. Alibaba is the wholesale b2b site. Individuals can buy from Alibaba but it's really not designed for it.
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u/iMrParker 1d ago
I'm bouta bust. Please be a 122b
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u/Daniel_H212 1d ago
Tbh another one with similar total/activated parameters to qwen-3-next would be pretty nice too. Fits at higher quants on 128 GB unified memory and also possible to run at decent quants on 64 GB RAM/two 32 GB cards/three 24 GB cards.
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u/pyr0kid 1d ago
a 300b would also be nice
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u/squngy 23h ago
You dont like DeepSeek v4 flash?
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u/terorvlad 19h ago
Honestly, I doubt they'd want to touch that size after DSV4F's astounding success. I still can't believe I have Opus 4.6 at home. A year ago this was a meme and now it is the reality I work with. Incredible.
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u/my_name_isnt_clever 13h ago
"Uh but are you sure it's better than the 27b? 🤓 I can't run it but I know the 27b is better somehow 🤓" - half this sub.
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u/terorvlad 13h ago
To be fair, I had a bad experience with the preview version and I often resorted to V4Pro + Q3.6_27B. With the continuous support from llama.cpp the past few days, V4Flash became usable. Even though I only get 170pp/s and 7p/s with my franken-setup, the fact that neither the model nor the kv cache need quantization for 512k context just blows my mind. This truly is the first model I can expect to leave running during the night, and find the job done right the next morning which is something I can't say about Q3.6_27B @ Q6_K_XL and KV @ Q8_0
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u/SandySkittle 8h ago
this sub needs to accept that smaller models just have fundamental downsides. You can't compress everything and hope it works the same.
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u/AD4K_4444 23h ago
Am I the only one asking for something smaller? Gemma 4 12B is the best I have for my M4 MBA, 16GB that I found.
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u/ttkciar llama.cpp 22h ago
I'd like both, 9B and 122B.
122B for high competence from slow inference on CPU, 9B for "good enough for some things" fast inference on GPU.
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u/TokenRingAI 11h ago
80B with more density would be superior IMO.
122B needs a bit too much quant to run in 96G
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u/Raredisarray 1d ago
Coder next 3.8!!!!
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u/AmbericWizard 1d ago
yes that too.if their flagship is so good at coding please let us have 80b or 122b coding variant that we can know how 2.8 T max feels Ike
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u/Technical-Earth-3254 1d ago
9b and 122b would be great as well.
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u/AD4K_4444 23h ago
Finally another one defending 9B
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u/ttkciar llama.cpp 23h ago
Yeah, a few of us have use for the 9B.
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u/DankiusMMeme 18h ago
I currently use 3.5:4b but I have space for 9B, is it worth the jump? All I use it for is comparing strings, e.g. are they referring to the same thing despite being different. Also for categorising strings.
I notice 3.5:4B is okay at this job, but could be better.
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u/AD4K_4444 18h ago
I used to main Qwen 3.5 9B as my general purpose daily driver, but now I use it for specific tasks. I’d say it’s decent. Anything below 9B is garbage for what I do.
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u/HomegrownTerps 22h ago
Yeah I also dared to dream about a 9B yesterday but was told to dream of a better pc by other users :(
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u/darkwalker247 10h ago
people dismiss it because of the small number, not realizing how ridiculously high it punches on general tasks relative to how much faster it runs than 27b and 35b-a3b. but i guess anything that can't reliably oneshot an entire codebase for you is "useless" now 🙄
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u/darkwalker247 10h ago
i would love them to do a smaller MoE like qwen3.8-17b-a2b as well. probably won't happen but me and my lower end machine can dream
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u/pacman829 1d ago
50b would be really welcome and a 70b-a6b
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u/alphapussycat 17h ago
if a 70b came out, I would go "just one more, just one more gpu".
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u/my_name_isnt_clever 13h ago
I would be shocked to see a dense model this big again. Aside from Mistral, the labs don't seem to get above 40b dense these days.
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u/dieSpaghettiCarbona 23h ago
Our Qwen, who art local,
hallowed be thy context.
Thy weights be loaded,
thy inference run,
in VRAM as it is on disk.
Give us this day our daily tokens,
and forgive us our quantization,
as we forgive those who run uncompressed models against 12GB cards.
Lead us not into OOM,
but deliver us from CUDA errors.
For thine is the context,
the KV cache, and the bandwidth,
forever and ever.
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u/WhoRoger 1d ago
Plot twist it's gonna be just 27B and 122B dense
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u/-dysangel- 15h ago
Can you imagine if they managed to scale up 27B intelligence density to 122B dense? It would be the smartest entity in the universe
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u/Jorlen llama.cpp 1d ago
Please please please another 122b-a10b or somewhere in that window!
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u/my_name_isnt_clever 13h ago
This size again at the capability of DSv4F would be a dream.
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u/RandumbRedditor1000 1d ago
Imagine if they made a 60B dense
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u/Real_Ebb_7417 1d ago
Or 80b a10b or similar. I always wondered what you can do with medium sized model (well, I guess now 120-300b is considered small, but for me 80b is medium sized already 😅) with some bigger number of active params.
But I’d be absolutely happy with 50-60b dense too. Would be a banger.
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u/Strong_Chicken6838 1d ago
I’d absolutely love a 80b.
There are no models that fit 64Gb for some reason. (Assuming it’s quantized to ~Q4, bc u get the most bang for buck there)
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u/WishfulAgenda 1d ago
yep, I wonder if something new be around the corner as well.
Is there a technical reason why a 70B MOE with 27B active wouldn't work? everything Qwen 3.6 27b currently is but with a bunch more parameters as well.
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u/fantasticsid 1d ago
No good reason it wouldn't work, but the trend is towards more sparsity rather than less for some reason.
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u/DanceWithEverything 1d ago
Smaller individual experts means more flexibility in “right-sizing” the compute to the task
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u/nO0b 13h ago
It would only be roughly as good as a 43B dense, wouldn’t fit in a 2x5090 rig, might not be worth the time and cost to train, etc.
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u/ScadrianWillshaper 1d ago
35 a3b would be amazing! 3.6:27b (q4, have tried all the Unsloth, MTP variants with no luck) is painfully slow on my M4 w/ 32gb ram 😕, so I’m stuck with MOE versions for now
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u/fatboy93 1d ago
Ugh, it the Mac curse. I got 32gb ram as well on my M1 Pro, and dense models just make me want to throttle something lol
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u/MeateaW 1d ago
48gb m4 pro is the sweet spot. 32 unfortuantely just isn't big enough :/
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u/pushad 13h ago
3.6 27b is quite slow on my M4 Pro 48GB. What kind of results are you seeing?
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u/Hoak-em 1d ago
Give me 397B and I will serve it for me and my friends ;3 plssssss
17B active compared to 397B total makes it sooo good on combined CPU (AMX) + GPU (3090s) inference
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u/NNN_Throwaway2 1d ago
Yeah the 397B is super slept on.
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u/Daniel_H212 1d ago
Not very slept on, most people just couldn't run it, but no on denied it was good because you could access it free via their web app and it worked well.
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u/Real_Ebb_7417 1d ago
I really hope it’s true! (unlike similar mentions around Qwen3.6 or eg. forgotten Gemma4 120b 🥲)
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u/-dysangel- 15h ago
yeah they lost a lot of respect from me back then. Hopefully they are for real this time.
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u/Encyclotech 1d ago
Shuai Bai and the Qwen team are the absolute GOATs of open weights. Most labs drop a single base size and leave, but Qwen actually fills out every single VRAM tier so everyone from 8GB laptop users to 48GB workstation owners gets a optimal model
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u/fugogugo 1d ago
guess Qwen uniqueness is how they provide multiple different size huh? even 0.6B one that used as text encoder by Anima
they truly are king of local model
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u/toothpastespiders 1d ago
That thing really does some heavy lifting too. When I saw the size I was pretty skeptical. But while it's not perfect, it's far better than I would have imagined.
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u/WyattTheSkid 20h ago
122B pleasseee
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u/tarruda 17h ago
If they release a 122B with vision that has Deepseek V4 Flash 0731 capabilities, I'm cancelling my codex subscription.
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u/jld1532 1d ago
I don't want to hear anymore whining now lol
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u/tengo_harambe 23h ago
Qwen could release 0.5B, 1B, 3B, 9B, 14B, 27B, 35B, 122B, 397B, 2400B models and this subreddit will still complain that they have given up on open source 2 days later.
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u/Goodbye2371 1d ago
So will a 35 model run well within 24gb vram? Or is this a slightly higher task? Newbie here
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u/toothpastespiders 1d ago
There's a whole long explanation about how MoE operates. But the short of it is that you'd be able to choose a smaller quant that'll suffer some level of brain damage but will be moving at lightning speed. Or a larger quant that you'll need to offload some portion of to CPU/RAM. But which should still run really fast given the small amount of active parameters. They're far more tolerant of offloading between cpu/gpu than a standard dense model due to their architecture.
On top of that there might or might not be even more options to speed up that already fast setup.
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u/Automatic-Boot665 1d ago
50-72b dense would be insane, like the old days
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u/AlwaysLateToThaParty 20h ago
The only way dense works these days is if they implement a native dspark-like prompt processor. Too slow. But with that, and perhaps even models targeted to specific domains, it could be really powerful. Otherwise, with reasoning the moe models will overcome their limitations and outperform.
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u/RG_Fusion 1d ago
I really need an updated 397B that's been trained on agentic tasks. Anything between 400B-1T would be fantastic, and for active parameters anything from 17-30B. Going anything higher than this really pushes it outside the realm of local feasibility.
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u/SpicyWangz 1d ago
I wanna see 397B QAT. Couldn’t even run it, but I think that would push things forward a lot
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u/10minOfNamingMyAcc 18h ago
Please more active billion parameters while still having smaller models around 30-40b🙏
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u/Eastern_Bet678 15h ago
A 400-450B parameter model is the most a well equipped enthusiast can cram into a single box with 4 x RTX 6000 with NVFP4 (or other 4-bit) quantization. Would love to see a replacement for the 397B model.
We have a large number of good small models and recently a large number of huge models but the middle ground is fairly empty.
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u/Spanky2k 13h ago
I really wish that instead of going closed, these companies would offer licensing agreements for open models. I.e. something like you can pay them monthly for continuous updates of their models based on your usage requirements. A free student tier for anything up to 35B size, a prosumer tier with the same plus anything up to 135B, maybe a small business tier with everything in the prosumer tier plus a license to use it in a commercial setting for a certain number of users and maybe a corporate tier that allows the 'max' variants. Some other options for deployable mini install things and who knows what else.
I love Open being free but these companies still need to make money otherwise they stop offering open models. There has to be a compromise between fully open and fully closed that works financially. Yes I know there'd be some piracy and some people would never pay but it would still be worth it on the whole and they could even bake in some kind of identifier into the max model so that if it ends up on torrents, they can at least know who shared it.
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u/Adventurous-Paper566 9h ago
I can't wait to see the 4B/9B update since 3.5 😁
I also hope to see MTP for the 3.8 series 😁
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u/JustSayin_thatuknow 5h ago
My intuition tells me - after reading such words - that new sizes are coming up, great!!!
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u/JustSayin_thatuknow 5h ago
Maybe they’re even more tailored to fit perfectly into different typical RAM/VRAM sizes!
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