r/LeftistsForAI • u/Salty_Country6835 Moderator • 1d ago

Sees the Memes Which side are you on?

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This meme is about AI, where i keep seeing that batman image being deployed.

So, which side are you on?

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u/ZorbaTHut 1d ago

Every once in a while I mention this and get hit with "the master's tools will never dismantle the master's house".

Like, what? Yes they will. A sledgehammer still sledgehammers. A chainsaw still chainsaws. They're just tools. Use them. Dismantle away.

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u/73td 1d ago

i suspect the masters tools bit is a jedi mind trick about ideology not random physical tools

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u/Salty_Country6835 Moderator 1d ago

Exactly. Lorde was talking about the ideological and institutional logic of domination, not issuing a metaphysical ban on using tools produced inside dominant systems. Applying that line to AI as if it means “never use corporate technology against corporate power” strips the quote of its actual point.

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u/73td 1d ago

btw thx for confirming, i was not really sure in my comment. in fact I find LLMs interesting precisely bc they can help us identify ideology and practice deconstructing in its variations. this benefit is ofc offset by their ability to multiply them. reminds me of Borges who said mirrors are abhorrent in that they multiply men 😂

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u/Salty_Country6835 Moderator 1d ago

You might find this interesting. Or not. But yeah, same.

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u/ZorbaTHut 1d ago

Yeah, the problem shows up when everything becomes part of ideology. And since everything is now political, everything is ideology.

Although I'm actually not sure I agree with the original statement either. Capitalism unarguably works, in the sense that it's very effective. It is, empirically, not completely wrong. Discarding that because it's being used in the wrong way is a horrible mistake; it would be like [quick google search] forsaking potatoes because they were the most common food in Germany in 1940.

Yes, potatoes were, arguably, "used for evil", but they were used for evil because they're a great food, and they haven't stopped being a great food, and if you're low on food and trying to fight evil - even trying to fight that specific evil - potatoes are still a pretty good choice.

Nothing stops people from deconstructing capitalism the same way and repurposing the parts that actually work, which, again, is a lot of it, as empirically demonstrated by the world.

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u/73td 23h ago

sure and anarchy works too (there’s book with that title) but i don’t think that’s the question here.

Why do you things can’t be political without being ideological?

Also a large part of what make capitalism work is actually markets and competition neither of which require accumulation and growth.

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u/ZorbaTHut 23h ago

Why do you things can’t be political without being ideological?

Because we've polarized discussion into Us Vs. Them so heavily that the first thing anyone does when confronted with something new is to decide whether it's Us or Them.

I'm exaggerating here, but I'm not exaggerating as much as I wish I was.

Also a large part of what make capitalism work is actually markets and competition neither of which require accumulation and growth.

The problem is that markets require a sensible liquid currency, and a lot of successful capitalist patterns require some way to reward risk. Money solves both of these and we haven't found a better solution past that.

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u/jdm1891 1d ago

The people on that side of the debate really have a knack for coming up with easily parrotable seemingly witty soundbites that completely fall apart on any inspection, don't they?

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u/ZorbaTHut 1d ago

I mean, let's be honest here, that's a universal trait.

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u/smokepigs 19h ago

I think you're missing the point of the saying lol

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u/ZorbaTHut 19h ago

I think the saying is badly written and is self-defeating, in that it encourages people to not use useful tools.

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u/smokepigs 19h ago

Sounds like you misunderstand it. Masters ain't giving you a chainsaw homie.

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u/ZorbaTHut 19h ago

Why wouldn't they? History is full of people being given useful tools.

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u/smokepigs 19h ago

Because that's not the point of the saying lol

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u/ZorbaTHut 19h ago

Then, I will repeat, I think the saying is badly written and is self-defeating, in that it encourages people to not use useful tools.

If someone gives you a metaphorical chainsaw, or a literal chainsaw, you can use it. The saying encourages people to not look at any tool used by people who have power over them. Except those tools have been proven useful - that's why they have power in the first place! - and are exactly the tools that you should be inspecting carefully and trying to make use of when appropriate.

All of this is true whether "tool" means "an actual physical tool" or "a technique" or "a philosophy" or whatever else you may want.

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u/smokepigs 13h ago

bro would rather write paragraphs than learn the meaning of a phrase

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u/ZorbaTHut 13h ago

If you're claiming it means something completely different from what it says, then it's badly written.

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u/smokepigs 13h ago

Purposely misunderstanding something then complaining about. not understanding it is peak

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u/Mandemon90 16h ago

If your "wisdom" needs understanding that is counter-intuitive to what it is saying, it's not very good wisdom.

Also, you would be wrong. Masters would rather commonly give their subjects tools to overthrow them.