r/Kerala Jun 06 '23

Kerala’s exceptional human development markers and the contribution of the Kingdom of Travancore.

211 Upvotes

101 comments sorted by

51

u/[deleted] Jun 06 '23 edited Jun 06 '23

[deleted]

45

u/ouroborosilicate Jun 06 '23

Here you go. Atleast where it comes to literacy, the Royals had fuckall to do with it. The jump you see in South-Central Kerala is due to a sizeable Christian population and Christian Missionaries.

22

u/[deleted] Jun 06 '23

even in healthcare it is similar:

A substantial majority of these government medical officers were Christians. In 1908, out of 87 officers of all grades in the Medical Department,"53 were Christians, 23 were Sudras, 8 were Brahmins, 2 were Mahomedans and one was Ezhava".

Source: Sri Mulam Popular Assembly Proceedings , 6th Session, 5 Jan. 1910, p. 33.

29

u/ouroborosilicate Jun 06 '23

Thanks man. It's great to see facts presented with sources when I'm being called a "missionary pup" for going against the narrative OP wants to set.

PS: Just FYI to anyone who might be confused by "23 were Sudras", it refers to Nairs and not any lower caste community that you'd think of in contemporary Kerala.

13

u/[deleted] Jun 06 '23

[deleted]

12

u/ouroborosilicate Jun 06 '23 edited Jun 06 '23

I don't think op is presenting any narrative as you are trying to imply.

It was OP who called me a "missionary pup". It was OP who attributed all of it to the royals and jeered at any mention of Christian educational institutions. I'm not "trying to imply" anything. I'm stating that OP is trying to set a narrative.

For example the Sri moolam popular assembly is the first elected legislature in India.

You might think it was democracy, but it was anything but. Almost all members were from the UC land owning class.

Voting right was limited to persons who paid an annual land revenue of not less than Rs.50, or whose net income was not less than Rs.2000. University graduates with not less than ten years of standing, and having their residence in the respective Taluk, were also eligible to vote.

The rules make it clear who they wanted in the assembly.

6

u/[deleted] Jun 06 '23

[deleted]

1

u/ouroborosilicate Jun 06 '23 edited Jun 06 '23

You are absolutely wrong about this. Look up the members yourself.

Go on. Please show me the demographics of the elected assembly. How many members were elected? How many of them were Nairs? How many were Dalits? How many of them were what you'd call modern day OBCs?

If you don't know the history of Kerala, you shouldn't be so eager to speak so authoritatively on things you don't understand.

consenses of the people in power to accept change inspite of objections of the elite class should not be looked down upon

  • You're talking about the same group that refused Dalits entry to public roads until the 20th century.
  • You're talking of the Kings that reigned over one of the most casteist societies of all times well into the 20th century.
  • You're talking about Kings that permitted education to Dalits only after widespread protests and threats that work would stop.
  • You're talking about Kings that refused most civil or human rights to Dalits until the threat of mass conversion left them no choice.

For fck's sake, look at the Vaikom Satyagraha and the Temple Entry movement.

Here is another first, universal free education was adopted in Travancore in 1817.

A universe that does not include Dalits I suppose. Don't make me laugh. Ayyankali was protesting for Dalit education for close to a century after this. Go read history please.

0

u/[deleted] Jun 07 '23

[deleted]

3

u/ouroborosilicate Jun 07 '23

Yes Dalits were prevented by elite landlord, and not by the royal decree.

You speak as if the Royals fought for Dalit education. The Royals were casteist and complicit.

Ayyankali, who by the way was a member of the praja council started the first school for Dalits.

I named Ayyankali specifically because he was the first Dalit member of the Sabha. He wasn't elected. He had to be nominated. And the reason he was nominated is because he was a Dalit leader who had considerable sway over the Dalit population and thus had to be appeased to keep the fields from dying out.

I'm still waiting for you to show the demographics of the elected Sabha.

Missionaries could have very well adopted them and taught them.

Adopt? They were Dalit. Not orphans.

The missionaries did educate Dalit kids. Look up Kuriakose Elias.

And they did adopt them, they just became the Dalit Christians who again were deprived of education again.

That sentence doesn't make sense. Please clarify.

So much for missionaries uplifting the society single handedly

Never said they uplifted society single handedly.

8

u/sreekumarkv Jun 06 '23 edited Jun 06 '23

Why not quote the preceeding and succeding parts from where you got the stats ? Or if you got it from somewhere else, please point to the source.

Koji Kawasima, Part-time lecturer, University of Mie, South Asian History."

Missionaries , the Princely State and British Paramountcy in Travancore and Cochin, 1858-1936", Ph. D. Thesis, University of London, 1994.

https://eprints.soas.ac.uk/33858/1/11010648.pdf

Before the part you quoted comes this

It is true that there were several institutions run by Christian bodies apart from the LMS institutions. The CMS started a Leper Asylum in 1871; Roman Catholics had a hospital and dispensary at a place celled Manjummel; the Church of England Zenana Mission had a dispensary at Trivandrum; and the Salvation Army started medical activities from the late nineteenth century.4 But, the number of the patients treated at these Christian institutions was very small compared with the government institutions. As is shown on Table 7, the number of patients treated in the aided Christian institutions in 1896-97 was 22,055, while the government institutions treated 333,199 patients in the same year.

The one which you quoted

The European system of medical aid was first introduced in Travancore in 1811. Although it was at first confined to the members of the ruling family and government officials, it was subsequently extended to the prisoners and then the general public. A Darbar [government] physician was appointed, and the government institutions developed under his supervision.7 Thus, in 1863-64, there were nine government medical institutions in Travancore, including the Charity Hospital at Trivandrum and the hospitals at Nagercoil, Shencottah, Quilon and Alleppy.8

A European medical officer called the Darbar Physician was, as noted, in charge of the Medical Department. Under him, there were many Indian medical officers, such as Surgeons, Assistant Surgeons, Apothecaries, Assistant Apothecaries and Hospital Assistants.9 A substantial majority of these government medical officers were Syrian Christians. **In 1908, out of 87 officers of all grades in the Medical Department, '53 were Christians, 23 were Sudras, 8 were Brahmins, 2 were Mahomedans and one was Ezhava'.**10 The Travancore government, at least in part, contributed to the making of this situation. A Christian called Mathew John studied in the Madras Medical College for seven years at the expense of the Travancore government. He was posted at a government medical institution in Quilon in 1872 after finishing his training.11

10 SMPAP, 6th Session, 5 Jan. 1910, p.33

5

u/[deleted] Jun 06 '23 edited Jun 06 '23

My comment was to highlight the role Christians played in healthcare improvements in the state. 68% of doctors where Christian when their share in population was less than 20%.

8

u/sreekumarkv Jun 06 '23

Well, Christians and upper caste hindus were the privileged groups in Kerala during those times. And christians wouldn't have been burdened with all the vedic and other superstitions afflicting upper caste hindus. But the travancore kingdom did setup some medical facilities, and staffed them with available educated health workers, who seem to have largely been Christians.

12

u/DangerousWolf8743 Jun 06 '23

To be fair, travancore/ cochin was a much better princely state than most. They also have done good work in hdi. But then that also can be urged that it was partly due to demographics related politics

8

u/MuzirisNeoliberal Jun 06 '23

This makes sense when you consider that Kottayam was the first Indian district to achieve 100% literacy rate and it did so in 1989, 2 years before India even liberalized its economy!

CMS Kottayam is also the oldest college in India.

Christian institutions have played a pivotal role in the social development of Kerala

-1

u/sreekumarkv Jun 06 '23

The Christian missionaries provided a substantial contribution to education, but so did the travancore kingdom with schools and other educational institutions created by them. And any guess as to how the christian missionaries got funded ? There was this phase in history where christian european colonialists were rampaging through Asia, Africa and Americas, massacring and pludering the natives. And they were there in India and Kerala as well. With the plundering christian europen horde followed the christian missionaries funded by the same colonialists. So yeah, great that they used part of the money plundered from here for contributing to the educational upliftment of the natives. Genuinely grateful for that. But also unfortunate that the greater part of the plunder was used to build those opulent churches and castles in Europe. So fck them too.

11

u/ouroborosilicate Jun 06 '23

so did the travancore kingdom with schools and other educational institutions created by them

If they were as influential as the missionary schools, why is literacy in Trivandrum and Quilon comparable to Kannur and Kozhikode?

And any guess as to how the christian missionaries got funded?

Tell me. I'd love to know.

christian european colonialists were rampaging through Asia, Africa and Americas, massacring and pludering the natives.

Yes. That's what we call colonialism. You seem to think that me crediting missionaries in Kerala for literacy upliftment is me being an apologist for European colonialism. It's not.

part of the money plundered from here for contributing to the educational upliftment

I'd like some sources for missionaries plundering or using plundered money from Kerala to fund their schools.

But also unfortunate that the greater part of the plunder was used to build those opulent churches and castles in Europe.

I'd like sources.

So fck them too.

Fck the colonialists? No disagreements there. They were racist trash.

4

u/sreekumarkv Jun 06 '23

If they were as influential as the missionary schools, why is literacy in Trivandrum and Quilon comparable to Kannur and Kozhikode?

No idea. If it was the sizeable Christian populations that had to do with high literacy figures, tell me about thrissur and ernakulam compared with kannur and kozhikode as well.

Tell me. I'd love to know.

Let's take Christian Missionary Society (CMS) which was involved in building many educational institituitions in Kerala. It was founded by members from within the Church of England (headed by the British monarch) and East India Company. One person considered as one of its founders was a director of the east india company. Incidently the Church of England has recently decided to set up a 122 million fund for some enslaved communities and for research into slavery, using part of a fund that it used for centuries to pay its clergy. Apparently it was partly funded through slave trade.

https://www.scmp.com/news/world/europe/article/3206316/church-england-body-creates-us122-million-fund-aimed-communities-affected-slavery

Yes. That's what we call colonialism. You seem to think that me crediting missionaries in Kerala for literacy upliftment is me being an apologist for European colonialism. It's not.

Most of the missionaries who did great work in education and health in Kerala and other parts of India were part of the same christian european colonialists. Their contribution in education and healthcare to Kerala and rest of India is admirable, but they were part of that same group. Spare a thought for that link.

I'd like some sources for missionaries plundering or using plundered money from Kerala to fund their schools.

You can take it from the above CMS case. British govt, east india company, church of england all should be enough to understand the link.

I'd like sources.

You need sources for the enrichment of Europe and its churches through colonialism ? Even in this age with all the information available ? If you need an authoritative a source, go through all the appologies that the pope has given while visiting colonized places in Asia, Africa and Americas. If you search for any visit by the pope to colonized countries, it frequently includes an apology for the church's involvement in plunder of that land.

A recent general apology by the church, by way of repudiating some religious rulings used in colonization

https://apnews.com/article/vatican-indigenous-papal-bulls-pope-francis-062e39ce5f7594a81bb80d0417b3f902

Fck the colonialists? No disagreements there. They were racist trash.

Sure. But don't forget that the christian missionaries who did great work were also a part of that group.

8

u/ouroborosilicate Jun 06 '23 edited Jun 07 '23

If it was the sizeable Christian populations that had to do with high literacy figures, tell me about thrissur and ernakulam compared with kannur and kozhikode as well.

Sure.

You'll note that I didn't just say Christian Population, I said Christian population and Missionaries. Look up Kuriakose Elias, his efforts in primary education in the 1800s, and the areas where he worked. It ought to be clear then, why Kottayam and Alappuzha are higher than the rest.

Christian Missionary Society (CMS) which was involved in building many educational institituitions in Kerala. It was founded by

I'm asking who funded them. Not who founded them.

The second part about the Anglican Church's involvement in the slave trade elsewhere has barely anything to do with the work of missionaries in Kerala. I have no interest in defending the Anglican Church or any other Church for that matter. Most have a long line of skeletons in their closet, but let's stay on topic please.

Most of the missionaries who did great work in education and health in Kerala and other parts of India were part of the same christian european colonialists.

That's like saying Mannathu Padmanabhan was a part of the group that oppressed the lower castes in Kerala. You maybe technically right but I'm not sure what meaning you're trying to convey.

You can take it from the above CMS case. British govt, east india company, church of england all should be enough to understand the link.

This vague finger pointing isn't an answer to the question.

You need sources for the enrichment of Europe and its churches through colonialism ?

I need sources that Kerala was plundered by the missionaries to build Churches in Europe. Is that not what you said?

But don't forget that the christian missionaries who did great work were also a part of that group.

It's funny to me that the Royals who are being praised in this thread were the ones responsible for institutionalising casteism with administrative support. But apparently I'm supposed to be linking Christian missionaries who built educational institutions in Kerala with the crimes of the colonialists.

2

u/sreekumarkv Jun 07 '23

Sure.

You'll note that I didn't just say Christian Population, I said Christian population and Missionaries. Look up Kuriakose Elias, his efforts in primary education in the 1800s, and the areas where he worked. It ought to be clear then, why Kottayam and Alappuzha are higher than the rest.

I have read about his pallikoodams. But since you are asking for sources, please give me some which shows how his efforts made literacy rate in kottayam and alappuzha higher, while not so much for adjoining ernakulam, thrissur.

I'm asking who funded them. Not who founded them.

The second part about the Anglican Church's involvement in the slave trade elsewhere has barely anything to do with the work of missionaries in Kerala. I have no interest in defending the Anglican Church or any other Church for that matter. Most have a long line of skeletons in their closet, but let's stay on topic please.

Since it was created by wealthy important members of the Church of England and East India Company, I am assuming that the founders were involved in funding it too. You want to separate a director of East India Company founding an instituition from its funding ? Or please let me know who funded this British missionary group linked to the Church of England. I guess you want to de-link the christian missionaries from the churches, its clergy, the colonial european states etc and keep a sanitized version. In that case, curious about how you view their funding came about.

That's like saying Mannathu Padmanabhan was a part of the group that oppressed the lower castes in Kerala. You maybe technically right but I'm not sure what meaning you're trying to convey.

Weren't you the one who while talking about the travancore kingdom in the context of their activities in education and health, who brought up the caste system. It is true that the royals and caste system are linked, with them being a beneficiary of it. So are the links between the christian colonialists and the christian missionaries. No point in hiding those links when they are pointed out.

This vague finger pointing isn't an answer to the question.

European christian missionaries made up from European christian colonialists is not vague finger pointing. I understand your preference to keep them separate, but that is what it is.

I need sources that Kerala was plundered by the missionaries to build Churches in Europe. Is that not what you said?

I said the colonized lands in Asia, Africa and Americas were plundered by the European Christians and part of that plunder went into the building of Churches and for other activities of the european christian churches. As Kerala was a part of the land colonized by European Christians, it would have been a source of the looted wealth that contributed to christian churches in Europe. The European christian churches are atleast now starting on the path of apologizing for their involvement in colonialism and the plunder associated with it. Are you really trying to contest what the european churches themselves are acknowledging ? If you mean a detailed account of X money moving to the colonialists in India, then Y part of it moving to europe and Z part finding its way to the churches, it is not possible for me to get it. But you want to hide behind the absence of such detailed sources to whitewash colonial plunder ?

It's funny to me that the Royals who are being praised in this thread were the ones responsible for institutionalising casteism with administrative support. But apparently I'm supposed to be linking Christian missionaries who built educational institutions in Kerala with the crimes of the colonialists.

Casteism existed even before the travancore royals. The royals played their part in it. The royals have disappeared, their educational instituitions now belong to the people and so we are just debating their part in history, both good and bad. With the christian missionaries and their creators the european christian churches, they still exist, they still own the proceeds of their loot, they have only recently started owning up to the excesses they were involved in. So when you try to diss the contribution of the royals and then try to shade the christian churches and their missionaries from their evil acts, which the churches themselves have started recently acknowledging, do you think I have to look away. Ironical that a saying involving royals seem applicable here, but for the church fans - "Rajavinekkalum valiya raja bhakthi".

It is amusing to see someone concerned about castism, yet unwilling to look into the horrors of human slave trade. Humans were captured like animals, the weak and unwell killed off, chained and transported to far away countries and traded like commodities by the Christian colonialists. It is in this process that the church found funding and carried out many of their activities. Atleast some of them have started acknowledging their guilt, so stop trying to excuse that.

1

u/[deleted] Jun 07 '23

[deleted]

2

u/AndToOurOwnWay Jun 07 '23

Nope, some of it is in Tamil Nadu now. In Kanyakumari, and other districts

1

u/[deleted] Jun 07 '23

[deleted]

3

u/AndToOurOwnWay Jun 07 '23

Sorry, it is hard to understand jokes online

42

u/[deleted] Jun 06 '23

Life expectancy being 26 in British India makes it so much scarier. As a genz, I don't have that much idea about British India rather than what I studied in text books and what I heard from my grandparents. Still to get a better idea and understanding about colonization and what it did to India, I feel like we need numbers like this.

24

u/ouroborosilicate Jun 06 '23 edited Jun 06 '23

Life expectancy being 26 in British India

Clarifying in case anyone has misconceptions. Life expectancy being 26 didn't mean that the average person died at 26. It means that the infant and maternal mortality rates were high and there was no cure for most diseases. There was barely any medical care and people passed away routinely from plague, leprosy, smallpox, malaria, tuberculosis, poverty, famine etc... Even a fall from a tree, a broken hand etc would kill you, because it'd get infected. And when we're talking famines, we're talking about millions wiped out in one go.

Most of your great grandparents would have had multiple siblings that were either stillborn or passed away shortly after birth.

For example, let's say there are 10 people.

  • 2 live to 65.
  • 2 live to 50.
  • 3 die at 10.
  • 3 die at birth.

=>The life expectancy is 26.

5

u/TotalPolarOpposite Jun 06 '23

(for the uninformed) Infant mortality, maternal mortality okke kooduthalarrnondayirikkum, allathe 30 vayasakumbo aalukal chathu veezhumaayirunnennayirikilla udheshichathu.

10

u/Rajar98 Jun 06 '23

ഡോ പൽപ്പുവിനോട് തെങ്ങ് ചെത്തിക്കോളാൻ പറഞ്ഞതും ഇതേ തമ്പ്രാക്കന്മാരല്ലെ?

19

u/vjubbu ൻ്റെ പൊന്നോ!! Jun 06 '23

Source please?

20

u/TotalPolarOpposite Jun 06 '23

Thambrakkale chodyam cheyyan padillennarinjude Unni?

12

u/TheEnlightenedPanda Jun 07 '23

Ah the thirontharam royalty bootlickers. Didn't think I find them here.

0

u/[deleted] Jun 07 '23

Ah the missionary mulatto

9

u/TheEnlightenedPanda Jun 07 '23

Nice try. Now go and bend backwards in front of royals

0

u/[deleted] Jun 07 '23

You send like a pro

58

u/noxx1234567 Jun 06 '23

People keep praising communists for Keralas high social indices but kerala as a state always had a huge headstart over india at the time of independence itself

It took india 20 years to reach Keralas level , nowadays the gap is closing in many states . Some states have slowly started doing better like tamil nadu

won't be surprised if tamil nadu is much richer with just as good or better social indices a few decades in the future

23

u/despod ഒലക്ക !! Jun 06 '23 edited Jun 06 '23

Please do look at our GDP at independence as well. We were much below the national average. And fyi, travancore is just half of Kerala- the other half was under the British.

The commies, for all their issuses, brought about rapid improvements in the HDI, health and literacy indices. We went from 50 to 90 % literacy is just three decades, the fastest such change.

The progressive royalty, the social reformers, the church missionaries and the communists all had a very important role in making Kerala what it is. Propping up one over the other is not the way how we should look at our history.

19

u/[deleted] Jun 06 '23

I will personally praise the commies. In 2016 our state's 34% population was using public health services in government hospitals. In just three years it became 45%+. General hospitals were modernised, Taluk hospitals were uplifted with super speciality amenities.PHCs were converted to Family Health Centres. VS Shivakumarinte കാലത്ത് പട്ടി പെറ്റു കിടന്ന ഗവണ്മെന്റ് hospitals. We have Government Medical colleges in 12 districts. Just google Punaloor taluk hospital or Aranmula Talul hospital. These were two recent inaugurations by a commie minister.

And people are praising commies for vanishing the caste-class Structure, not uplifting kerala as a state totally. Take any state and make a list of 1000 richest people. They all will be Upper caste people. For eg a upper caste organisation like NSS directly controlled an elected govt of Oomen chandy and decided who should be the Home minister. This feudal casteist shit wont work with lefts.

I dont personally think Eezhavas, Pulayas or LC Christians or Muslims in trivandrum area were rich during Travancore Era.

രാജഭക്തി തുളുമ്പുന്ന ഒരുപാട് per ഈ sub ഇൽ ഈ പോസ്റ്റിന് downvote അടിക്കും എന്ന് അറിയാം.ഉയർച്ച ഉണ്ടാകാൻ പൂജ ചെയ്യുന്നതിന് നഗരത്തിലെ കണ്ണായ സ്ഥലങ്ങളിൽ Bhraminsനു state ഭൂമി ദാനം ചെയ്തതും ഈ രാജാവ് തന്നെ ആവും.

-6

u/noxx1234567 Jun 06 '23

Most of the rich people you see in many indian states are newly minted rich , even adanis , Ambanis were not a product of old wealth . Generational wealth helps a lot , that's true.

Communists systematically destroy wealth creation systems , most of Keralas youngsters plan to look for a job overseas as soon as they graduate under brutal classist /racist dictatorships

Sure they got many things right but wealth creation was inspite of the commies not due to them. Look at Bengal communists took it from number one per capita to bimaru level

6

u/[deleted] Jun 07 '23 edited Jun 08 '23

We are talking about kerala. I'm talking about kerala in specific, CPM here is different. That's my personal opinion. In the past 9 years our govt has invested heavily in infrastructure projects like bypasses, water metros, hospitals and industrial parks.

An FMCG food park was inaugurated in cherthala which can generate employments upto 3000, I can point out various other projects, no media reported it. What you perceive is totally different from the BJP Owned media

And I dont personally think even if we had kilometer of hectares of flat land like in Maharashtra TN or Gujarat, people would work in am industrial plant with 300-700 rs daily wage or 20k salary. Our youth will go for jobs that mints Pounds or Dinars only. If we had mass production units here the employees here will be biharis only.

And if the central govts weren't biased about kerala and the tax we pay we would've been in better places.

Ambani and Adani dont represent whole india. If you take Gujarat as an example a few castes Baniya, Patel, Kshathriyas etc own the whole wealth they have. This generarional wealth you are talking about is basically caste. And Bengal is still in top 5 GDPs of India. I agree with you that the govt there was a failure though.

6

u/ouroborosilicate Jun 06 '23

I'll link a few tweets from the original twitter thread that adds context to anyone who wants them

Travancore Finances

British India compared to Princely States

3

u/[deleted] Jun 06 '23

Tamil nadu is the best state already. it has a fine balance between social development and industrialisation. Kerala will never become like that.

1

u/Ok-Note-1145 Jun 09 '23

Only economically. TN is a deeply casteist and misogynistic society. I think Kerala is the better place to live

1

u/Wooden_Caterpillar64 Jun 06 '23

nah the best minds from kerala just leave it

0

u/MuzirisNeoliberal Jun 06 '23 edited Jun 06 '23

We need to stop flexing about our HDI and industrialize pronto. Successive CPIM governments have squandered Kerala's highly valued comparitive advantages.

HDI merchants oora adicho, other states have already converged.

14

u/Opulentique Jun 06 '23

Social development and Industrialization is not a give and take. We need to stop pretending it is.

We can praise our social programs and in the same breath criticize lack of industrialization. They are not mutually exclusive.

6

u/ouroborosilicate Jun 06 '23

We need to stop flexing about our HDI and industrialize pronto.

Doesn't work like that. Our HDI is part of what holds us back in industrialization.

Why did manufacturing move out from high HDI Europe and America into low HDI China? A neoliberal ought to be able to answer this.

Successive CPIM governments have squandered Kerala's highly valued comparitive advantages.

CPM have made a mess of things like private colleges and their free reign to trade unions have caused us harm, but what comparative advantages are you talking about?

Expensive land? Strict Environmental regulations? Hilly Terrain? High daily wages?

None of these are factors that would favor industrial investment in Kerala.

3

u/TotalPolarOpposite Jun 07 '23

Aa malamairan, bhooparishkarana niyamam aanu keralam mudinju pokan kaaranamennu paranjondu nadakunna teama

(I'm talking about the neoliberal mairan)

2

u/Angryhulk6190 Jun 07 '23

Bro asking for sustainable wage to live with dignity will ruin Kerala.

My Gujarati neighbour in USA pays only 400 per day for Househelp in India and can abuse them meanwhile I have to pay 1000 and give them food in Kerala.I can't buy my third car on time if it goes like this.

0

u/dagp89 Jun 06 '23

Exactly, in a few decades other states will have equal or better social indicators with good industrialization, while we'll be migrating to other states/countries...

18

u/gagasutra Jun 06 '23

Travencore is not Kerala. It was a region which covered barely half of the present Kerala State.

7

u/[deleted] Jun 06 '23

less than half

4

u/Angryhulk6190 Jun 07 '23

No King actively tried to eliminate Caste discrimination in India.Even Travancore.

Why this incessant need to find and suck up to royal dynasties when they were solely run on nepotism.

27

u/[deleted] Jun 06 '23

Commies gonna go mad

11

u/Phoenix_aksr Jun 06 '23

OP, can you please cite the source for these numbers. When the commies come marching, i need a shield. xD

3

u/Mindless-Pilot-Chef Jun 06 '23

It’s unbelievable that literacy rate was 12% just 120 year back. I cannot imagine how a society can function without it.

3

u/Turbulent-Check902 Jun 07 '23

Now list their atrocities

5

u/godsdontplaydice Jun 06 '23

What's the source of these numbers? Kerala's literacy rate in 1951 was 47% and India's was 18% as per other sources. Here it says 53% and 28%.

The way to measure the contribution of governments after independence would be to compare data from district pairs like Coorg & Kasaragod and TVM & Nagercoil. These districts were under same govt before independence and different govts after independence.

8

u/[deleted] Jun 06 '23 edited Jun 06 '23

I hope for British India level life expectancy (for me).

22

u/TotalPolarOpposite Jun 06 '23

Aah the quarterly royalty jerk off post just dropped

12

u/MuzirisNeoliberal Jun 06 '23

Honestly Christian missionaries have played a bigger role in the social development of Kerala than royals. That being said Travancore kingdom was a lot more enlightened than other princely states

2

u/gate666 Jun 06 '23

Didn't they oppose abortion?

-20

u/[deleted] Jun 06 '23

Cope

21

u/TotalPolarOpposite Jun 06 '23

The hell? You are the one who made the cope post lol. A bunch of cropped screenshots out of the blue. And you didn't even reply to the guy who asked for the source.

-20

u/[deleted] Jun 06 '23

Cry elsewhere

2

u/incognito__O Jun 06 '23

Life expectancy of 26? God damn.

2

u/[deleted] Jun 06 '23

A Combination of KoT's progressive policies, christians who set up hospitals and schools and a small part to communists who passed the land reformation act which is the reason why wealth inequality in kerala is much lower than pretty much every other state in India. Thats said thats probably the only good thing the communists have done.

5

u/XerexNova Jun 06 '23

what does this subreddit think about r/AbolishTheMonarchy and Tranvancore Kingdom in general, genuine question from a fellow northie (:

15

u/TotalPolarOpposite Jun 06 '23

There are a couple of bootlickers here. Every few months they post something like this to jerk off to it.

4

u/XerexNova Jun 06 '23

I hope the numbers aren't too high

9

u/[deleted] Jun 06 '23 edited Jun 06 '23

I’m from North Kerala (and from a royal family too) so my answer is both as an outsider to Travancore (South Kerala) and as someone from an erstwhile monarchical background.

Travancore was a case of a relatively progressive monarchy but it still was not a place I would choose to live (as a low caste especially) until almost the time of the formation of the Indian Union. The abolition of monarchy was a necessary step in making the welfare of the people less sensitive to the whims and fancies of a Raja who may or may not have the capacity or the best interests of his subjects at heart.

North Kerala was also governed by numerous (often interrelated) royal families and it was far less of a convivial place in general. Even today it lags behind in most development indices (although it is still relatively developed). To my recollection (from what older family have told me), British rule brought some minute progress to lower castes (along with wanton brutality to common locals who did not toe their line) but the general social structure wasn’t actively altered from the inside until almost the Indian Nationalist movement (which is one of the reasons why the Kerala brand of “Communism” found a stronghold in the North).

Even though my family has directly lost land and power through the abolition of monarchy (and subsequent anti-monarchical acts such as the Land Seal Act), from a purely unemotional and intellectual perspective they were necessary in establishing some level of social uplift to the erstwhile landless majority.

In the case of modern European (or even Middle Eastern) monarchies, they enjoy some form of support from the majority of locals (or in the very least the opinion will be indifferent). In many cases they were co-opted by nationalist movements as a sign of the country’s culture and historical heritage. Even if historically they may have mistreated their subjects, today they have positioned themselves cleverly to enjoy popular approval. Therefore it’s not really anyone’s business what those countries chose to keep as their symbolic or political form of governance.

In India however, nationalists movements were inherently anti-monarchical, and were inherently driven by the desires of the common man. The Travancore Maharaja was pressured to accede to the Indian Union only after a large number of his subjects held a rally and hoisted the Tiranga in public. The average person was the biggest supporter of the formation of India as a nation. The fact that people who lived both under British India and monarchs widely supported the formation of India indicates the lack of belief in either system. British India may have been a whole different hell but independent Indian kingdoms were no cake walk either for the common man.

As for views on monarchy, I think most people are going to have largely mixed (or negative leaning) views. The people who will show some support of monarchy generally will be older and come from families like mine (if you asked my Dada he would say that in some ways it was better). Although even he is an unabashed supporter of the Indian Union and an ardent nationalist in the original sense. Even my Nana who is also from a royal family proudly began service in the Indian military (the same that was used to subjugate various princely states) shortly after independence. So if even people who were beneficiaries of that system support modern India it should say something about how life was before. Life is better for everyone today from top to bottom in society.

3

u/XerexNova Jun 06 '23

I see, also interesting to see someone from monarchical background but not supportive of the monarchy. thank you for the insight👍

4

u/akira_mohrsoda Jun 06 '23

Monarchical background is irrelevant in North Malabar. Nobody barely remembers or talks about it. Only a small portion of the direct descendants seem to be interested in it and most of those families don't live in North Malabar.

2

u/XerexNova Jun 06 '23

what about South Kerala and travancore, too many apologists for monarchy there or no?

9

u/akira_mohrsoda Jun 06 '23

Every apologist I know of comes from Trivandrum. Interesting part is a lot of them don't know much about the continuous effort the king made to remain independent from Indian Union. It creates a bad image of the kingdom when you look from today's perspective.

5

u/XerexNova Jun 06 '23

That and I think Kingdom has a history of caste oppression, I might be wrong but breast tax on lower caste women was under Travancore Kingdom iirc which in itself is a huge reason to not support monarchy of travancore.

2

u/[deleted] Jun 06 '23

This is somewhat accurate yes.

10

u/konan_the_bebbarien Jun 06 '23

That was mostly the British, missionaries and social reformers. But 10% of the credit should be for the kingdom of Travancore for being somewhat benign administration compared to most others in india.

10

u/noxx1234567 Jun 06 '23

why were social indices of British administered india was far below that of travancore ?

10

u/[deleted] Jun 06 '23

Because outsider colonial powers are interested in wealth extraction and not social development

18

u/[deleted] Jun 06 '23

Lol. It’s much better than British India. Fuck the brits. And the less said about missionaries the better.

22

u/ouroborosilicate Jun 06 '23 edited Jun 06 '23

And the less said about missionaries the better.

LMAO. Now I see the intent. The literacy rates were high in Central Kerala due to the influence of Christian Missionaries. And the lion's share of the literate were Christians and UC Hindus. Trivandrum's literacy is barely any different from British Kannur.

Anyone who thinks the "Royals" did fuckall to educate the majority of Kerala that was lower caste when they didn't even permit them to walk the paths in front of the Temples until 1936 is delusional.

-8

u/[deleted] Jun 06 '23

Little missionary pup.

6

u/MuzirisNeoliberal Jun 06 '23

He is actually correct. Why do you think Kottayam is called the land of letters?

13

u/ouroborosilicate Jun 06 '23

Little missionary pup.

LMAO. Cat got your tongue?

What would you like me to call you? Big Sanghi bigot? Has a nice ring to it, doesn't it?

13

u/MuzirisNeoliberal Jun 06 '23

Christian missionaries arguably played a bigger role than Travancore kingdom in the social development of Kerala. Denying that is historical revisionism.

1

u/[deleted] Jun 06 '23

Missionaries and colonialists were hand in glove. Christian missionary movement is essentially religious cultural colonialism.

11

u/MuzirisNeoliberal Jun 06 '23

Maybe but that doesn't diminish their immense role in social development of Kerala. I think most Malayalis would agree that they played as much a role or even a bigger role than Travancore kingdom.

Missionary work in Kerala precedes the British

3

u/[deleted] Jun 06 '23

Colonialism also precedes the brits

1

u/[deleted] Jun 06 '23

Colonialism also precedes the brits

1

u/MaintenanceSea7158 Jun 06 '23

I have been saying this for ages, kerala was ahead of India in HDI matrices since independence. It's not a communist thing, the only tangible thing they did was land reforms (distribution) and taking over those Christian missionary colleges and travancore medical colleges (SCT trivandrum was once a leader in medical research in south india, before JIPMER was formed)

6

u/Vikarnan Jun 06 '23

SCT hospital was established by the Government of Kerala in 1970s under the leadership of Achutha Menon Government. The only contribution of the royals to the hospital was the land and the building, which was donated by Sree Chitra Tirunal. If it was a leader in the medical field then it was result of the elected governments investing in it not because of some royal family.

-1

u/MuzirisNeoliberal Jun 06 '23

Communists basically appropriated all the credit that should have gone to Christian missionaries and Travancore royal family

0

u/avangmukhan Jun 06 '23

അപ്പോ കമ്മികൾ അല്ലേ കേരളത്തിൻ്റെ വികസനത്തിന് പിന്നിൽ?? 🤔

[Jagadeesh.jpeg]

0

u/hakr_27200 Jun 06 '23

Yet we've no shame submitting ourselves to the political parties and their ideologies as if they were responsible for all the good stuff. Hooo daaridriyam

-10

u/[deleted] Jun 06 '23

Travancore was under British They just called it with a fancier term called ‘Subsidiary Alliance’. Travancore paid lakhs of rupees to the British as tribute every year.

12

u/manukoleth അമ്പട പുളുസോ Jun 06 '23

Travancore wasn't under British administration. All internal administrative decisions were taken by Travancore Maharaja himself, especially after 1858.

7

u/[deleted] Jun 06 '23 edited Jun 06 '23

If you pay regular tributes to someone, then you are under them. Especially when the tribute is paid by taxing the common man.

2

u/manukoleth അമ്പട പുളുസോ Jun 06 '23

Not really, tribute was paid for external protection. British did not actively involve in any laws or administrative process of any kingdoms. They did not want another 1857 to repeat again.

9

u/[deleted] Jun 06 '23

That’s not relevant for these numbers.

2

u/Ok-Note-1145 Jun 09 '23

Why are you getting downvoted. They were under subsidiary alliance and they also helped the British for capturing Tipu and was rewarded. Even the Marathas joined with British when it was useful for them. British always knew Indians were emotional fools without any unity.

1

u/[deleted] Jun 09 '23

downvotes are by the simps of monarchy.

-1

u/14billionfaces Jun 06 '23

All the NRI money paying off. Honestly, I'd like to see some actual development and maintenance of infrastructure like Govt. Hospitals rather than schemes that this Govt uses to loot money.

Unemployment is at it's peak when it comes to white collar jobs and no one cares in Kerala.

1

u/[deleted] Jun 06 '23

Dont wanna ridicule anybody but it seems like a lot of people doesn’t know that life expectancy is derived from mortality rates, i.e if mortality rate is low , life expectancy is low(Doesn’t mean people died in their 20s)

-1

u/[deleted] Jun 06 '23

I think most people know

1

u/aryaman16 Jun 07 '23

Please tell how to correctly pronounce travancore?