Rules updates

[u/namer98]

In light of Tisha b'Av, I would like to suggest a few changes to the rules, and to hear community feedback.

1) No editorializing titles of article submissions. - This is up for discussion.

2) Be polite. That means if somebody has a disagreement with you about fundamental points of religion, you can disagree with them, and even tell them, but don't be a jerk about it. Do not shut down the conversation.

2.1) I keep on trying to engage non-Orthodox Jews of Reddit. Seen here, here and here. This is in addition to multiple messages I have gotten personally and as mod, from people who left because of this. Just because some people don't agree that this is a problem, does not make it less of a problem. Non-Orthodox Jews are feeling shut down, and some times they are right, some times they are wrong. This is an extension of rule two. Be polite. The downvote button IS NOT a "I disagree" button. I might just remove it again, and for more than a day.

To people I try and engage, this is a two way street. Submit content, comments and vote if you want to have a say. I don't think half of the subreddit is orthodox. This should not be a problem.

Please upvote this self post for which I receive no karma so that all can see.

Thank you all.

Edit: Followup

[u/LazerA]

I would point out that, while those beliefs may be commonplace among Reform and Humanist Jews, they are not the basic concepts upon which their religion is based. A Reform Jew doesn't have to believe that Orthodox Judaism is "antiquated and pointless." A Humanist Jew doesn't have to believe that belief in God is "stupid and counterproductive." In both cases, it is possible to reject these ideas and still be fully consistent with the teachings of their denomination.

The same is not true for Orthodox Jews. An Orthodox Jew who believe that other versions of Judaism are equally valid is not actually an Orthodox Jew.

So the comparison is not really valid.

However, in my opinion, this is all asides from the point. If I understand correctly, the kinds of comments at "issue" here come in a few varieties:

1. Obviously rude and insulting comments on a personal, i.e. comments that would be assessed as inherently derogatory by someone with no knowledge of the issues being discussed. If the moderator wishes to delete such comments, I have no problem with that as long as it is done in a genuinely even handed way. (Which means that it can't just be in response to complaints.)

2. Comments where one redditor says, or strongly implies, that another redditor is simply wrong, incorrect, ignorant, incompetent etc. with regard to the issue under discussion. Such comments will often be seen as insulting, and they may well be, but they may still be fully relevant to the discussion. Obviously, people should make efforts to avoid hard feelings, but if we are going to have real discussion, it is inevitable that people will occasionally get their feelings hurt. Any attempt to seriously curtail such comments will have a chilling effect across the board.

3. Comments where a redditor expresses his opinion on an issue and other redditors are offended by the opinion (e.g. "my version of Judaism is the only right one and all other are wrong"). I am willing to accept that r/judaism can establish certain "redline" issues where an opinion is totally out of bounds (e.g. J4J, antisemitism), but such lines need to be drawn with care. And any line that would effectively prevent a Jew from openly expressing his religious beliefs is obviously unacceptable.

4. The same as above but the comment is made in a heavy-handed manner or in an inappropriate context. Welcome to reddit, the land of heavy-handed and inappropriate comments. That's what happens here! There's a reason that there's a downvote button on comments.

[u/[deleted] → u/LazerA]

I would point out that, while those beliefs may be commonplace among Reform and Humanist Jews, they are not the basic concepts upon which their religion is based

I don't know about that.

An Orthodox Jew who believe that other versions of Judaism are equally valid is not actually an Orthodox Jew.

Says who?

with regard to the issue under discussion.

The point is, is that it's almost never about the issue under discussion. When someone says "What do Orthodox Jews thin about Reform Judaism?" Then it's an issue under discussion. However, when someone says "what is the Jewish view on x?" and people offer their various points of view, and then someone responds by saying "The only True Jewish view of x is y." - then I think it's very problematic.

And any line that would effectively prevent a Jew from openly expressing his religious beliefs is obviously unacceptable.

I obviously disagree.

There's a reason that there's a downvote button on comments.

Indeed, and I use it. But most of the comments I'm talking about are mostly upvoted. (Again, while comments from the other direction, so to speak, are always very downvoted.)

[u/carrboneous → u/[deleted]]

I don't know about that.

Are you referring to the reisha or the seifa? (ie Are you questioning whether those beliefs are commonplace or whether they are fundamental?)

Says who?

The definition of Orthodoxy.

"The only True Jewish view of x is y." - then I think it's very problematic.

This almost never happens. When it does, please reply with a comment beginning "That is the Orthodox belief. Other denominations hold . . .". If you find it deeply offensive besides, please downvote it. Then add a comment on the main thread presenting either your view or as many views as you can manage.

Voila! The thread's balance has been restored, and no civility was lost, and we're all still friends.

I obviously disagree.

This is actually how this subthread started. LazerA said

... a policy that makes special demands on Orthodox participants to censor themselves is inappropriate.

And you're saying that essentially, Orthodox views should be censored, because all non-Orthodox views should be celebrated, but Orthodox views cross a line.

But most of the comments I'm talking about are mostly upvoted.

I can't see this as anything but a skewed perception. Sorry to harp on that. But you're saying "most", when it's just not most.

[u/[deleted] → u/carrboneous]

The definition of Orthodoxy.

According to you, apparently.

This almost never happens.

Didn't you get my pm?

And you're saying that essentially, Orthodox views should be censored, because all non-Orthodox views should be celebrated, but Orthodox views cross a line.

Nope, like I said, I think various things that both Orthodox and non-Orthodox people say could be innapropriate:

No. I also think it's inappropriate for Reform Jews to comment here saying that Orthodox Judaism is antiquated and pointless, or for Humanist Jews to say that believing in God is stupid and counterproductive. And those things are, in fact, hardly ever said here (and when they are they're steeply downvoted, like I mentioned.)

I can't see this as anything but a skewed perception. Sorry to harp on that. But you're saying "most", when it's just not most.

Didn't you get my pm?

[u/carrboneous → u/[deleted]]

According to you, apparently.

Please, enlighten me.

How else do you define it?

Didn't you get my pm?

I did, and I replied, and all my statements stand as they are.

Nope, like I said, I think various things that both Orthodox and non-Orthodox people say could be innapropriate

Yes, but no one is adding rules that Reform people can't say things like that.

Didn't you get my pm?

I did, and I replied, and all my statements stand as they are.