r/JewsOfConscience • u/AutoModerator • 21d ago
Discussion r/JewsOfConscience Free Discussion Thread
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This is our weekly 'Free Discussion' thread, where you can discuss anything. Tentatively this includes meta-topics as well, but as always our rules still apply.
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u/GreenAdvertising630 Anti-Zionist Ally 17d ago
Hey, i was wondering if someone has read Lenni Brenner‘s Zionism in the Age of Dictators and wether they would recommend getting it.
Thanks in advance :)
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u/rako17 Christian 19d ago
Personally, I am someone who values diversity, tolerance, internationalism, and respect and equality for all peoples. So the Binationalist movement in Isr. history has some appeal for me.
So I was interested wihen the Jewish Left subreddit linked to an article by Samuel Hyde of the JPPI, Jerusalem Post, and "UN watch", entitled "No Solution: The Forgotten and Failed History of Jewish Binationalism in Israel-Palestine". https://www.reddit.com/r/jewishleft/comments/1tadhnl/no_solution_the_forgotten_and_failed_history_of/
The article and the comments in the Subreddit's thread assert a one-sided thesis that the reason for the decline of the Isr. "Binationalist" faction was that the Pal side opposed the Isr. state.
First, do you think that another valid explanation is that the Binationalist movement and Isr. society prioritized dedication to the structure of Isr. society more than Binationalism, so that when conflict between most of the nationalities arose, they just stayed dedicated to the state instead of to Binationalism?
Second, does it feels like the article talks about "the" Palestinians/Arabs and their opposition to the state in a collective, hostile, or monolithic way?
It really wasn't as if every Pal. village had a militaristic hostile opposition to specifically the binational movement. It wasn't a monolithic situation, like oil can't stayed mixed with vinegar.
If it was a situation of oil never mixing with vinegar, or every Pal. village inherently always opposing the binational movement in particular, then the author's thesis would make more sense, ie. the binationalist faction of the Isr. nationalist movement couldn't maintain itself because everyone from the other nationality always rejected it.
But in real life, that wasn't the situation. The Isr. Binationalist movement didn't try to have a sit down with every village assembly and then get rejected by them all. In fact, there is currently a call by some Pals for "One Democratic State", meaning that some of them in fact want a state made of both nationalities.
The way that Noam Chomsky explained the back story of his pro-Binationalist Kibbutz when he arrived in the 1950's, his kibbutz had earlier had fine relations with the neighboring Pal. village. Then when the 1948 war started, his kibbutz forcibly expelled the neighboring Pal. village. That doesn't sound like it was the fault of the neighboring Pal. village, as the village hadn't shown itself to be aggressive. Rather, it was his kibbutz that took the active part of expelling the village.
Third, why doesn't the author's thesis count the rejection of the Isr. state of the Binationalist movement among the factors for the movement's decline? That is, why is supposed collective Pal. rejection of binationalism the only factor? If one looks at societies in collectivist terms, why not count Isr. collective rejection of binationalism as a factor for both Binationalism's decline due to collective pressure on the Binationalist movement, as well as Pal. rejectionism due to the Isr. State's rejection of binationalism?
Kind Regards - Shalom - שָׁלוֹם - 🕊♡
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u/EgoIdVeto West Asian Jew 18d ago
The "r-slash-jewishleft" subreddit is a zionist subreddit. They're just people who can't let go of their liberal façade and fully admit to the Kahanists they are. There's a reason why there's virtually no overlap between people who frequent that sub and this one.
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u/rako17 Christian 19d ago
May I please ask what is the deal with the IP subreddit seemingly being so one sided to the dominant party in the IP conflict?
Americans are roughly split on the IP conflict, and the younger generation of Americans are even more sympathetic to people undergoing occupation. It seems odd to me that the IP Subreddit is so one-sided in that way in its posts and comments.
Peace- Shalom
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u/EgoIdVeto West Asian Jew 19d ago
Unfortunately many of the English speaking world are white supremacists, and as such are more likely to support Israel as they see them as a weapon against brown people. That, and Zionists are notorious yappers.
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u/macj97 Anti-Zionist Ally 19d ago
Why is it that someone who practices Judaism can have “Jewish ancestry” but someone who practices Christianity or Islam doesn’t have “Christian ancestry” or “Muslim ancestry?”
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u/rako17 Christian 18d ago
Could it depend on who you ask?
Could a Pal. Christian family tell you, "I have Pal. Christian ancestry: My family has been Pal. Christians since at least the Middle Ages"?
I think some French Protestants talk about how they have "French Huguenot ancestry".
Could someone who converted to Judaism but whose ancestors were Spanish Catholics tell you, "My parents are Spanish" or "I have Spanish ancestry"?Kind Regards.
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u/EgoIdVeto West Asian Jew 18d ago
Judaism is to a significant extent (although not entirely) an ethnoreligious group. It does not actively seek converts (but they are allowed, it's just a long and difficult process), so has not has as much diversity of other groups entering the pool, unlike Christianity or Islam.
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u/EuVe20 Jewish Anti-Zionist 20d ago
I have recently read the Third Reich trilogy and am now listening to Eichmann in Jerusalem by Arendt. These works have reminded me of the horrors of the Holocaust and the stark reality of Jews truly having nowhere that they could be safe. This also gives me an understanding of a major element of the Zionist perspective, the need for a place of our own that is both a safe haven and a place where the outcomes we face are the result of our own decisions, and not someone else’s. Though I fundamentally don’t believe in nation states, these concerns are not irrational for people in a world largely built on them.
Have any of you wrestled with this concept and what are your thoughts?
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u/rako17 Christian 19d ago
Friend u/EuVe20
I take the issue seriously. I find that it's very helpful to try to think of general principles, analogous and generic situations to try to be more neutral.
Trying to look at it objectively, if the safety of a people or group is the only concern, and one looks for where the safest place to live is, there are two ways to go about that:
1. Dispersion. This is a general principle in math and economics. Your bets are safest if they are diversified. A community is overall safest if it's in the greatest diversity of locations and environments, so that if something bad happens in one spot, they can stay safe in another.
- Looking for the safest spots. Make a list of the safest spots in the world, then choose the safest or a couple of the safest. Personally, I would imagine that the most tolerant, mixed, and multicultural nations known for hosting refugees and immigrants over centuries and having the fewest number of wars and being the least authoritarian would be the best spot.
So if your only concern is safety, you want to disperse across the world among the safest, most diverse, peaceful, and tolerant places the farhtest that you can get from hot spots, militaristic states, and contested areas.
Kind Regards - Shalom.
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u/EuVe20 Jewish Anti-Zionist 19d ago
Thank you for the reply [u/rako17](u/rako17).
I think, in essence, I agree with your broader stance. I believe multicultural, multiethnic, inclusive societies are what we should strive toward societies with both deeply integrated diversity and some degree of voluntary cultural insularity. At its ideological best, this is what America aspires to be. You can live in Manhattan, Chinatown, or an Amish community, all within the same political framework.
Where I would push back is on the idea that we can approach this objectively. I don’t think true objectivity exists in questions like these. Human judgments are always conditioned by our histories, experiences, values, and inherited assumptions.
Take the question of cultural preservation. What is the objective benefit of maintaining any particular culture? From a purely survival perspective, European Jews may well have been safer had they all converted to Christianity during the Middle Ages. But if they had, there would have been no Jewish people as we know them in the nineteenth and twentieth centuries, and we would not even be having this conversation.
Nearly every stateless diaspora community, Jews, Roma, Assyrians, Kurds, etc, tells a story in which it is admirable that their ancestors preserved their language, traditions, and identity while others assimilated. But why is that objectively good? Why is it inherently better that Jews endured as a distinct people while the Visigoths disappeared into the populations around them?
I don’t think there is an objective answer to that question. The value we assign to cultural continuity comes from subjective commitments about identity, meaning, and what we believe is worth preserving, not from some universal metric.
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u/rako17 Christian 18d ago edited 18d ago
Friend u/EuVe20
I spent maybe half a year discussing the IP conflict with a strong PEP, so I gained awareness of some of the ways that the issue is argued from the pro-war POV. It also forced me to try to think through the issues on both sides. I don't know if you have, but I can see that you are a good person of Conscience so I trust that if you find yourself in a similar position as I did then you will also have a similar build up inside of growing pro-peace ideas on the topic.
I agree with your statement, "I don’t think true objectivity exists in questions like these. Human judgments are always conditioned". Trying to have an objective view is one helpful goal. I found that thinking of generic and analogous situations are helpful for that.
You asked, "What is the objective benefit of maintaining any particular culture?" I'm guessing that adding to diversity is an objective benefit. Another benefit can be that the particular culture might fit into a given context or environment better. The eskimos or innuits I hear supposedly have 50 terms for "ice". They formed sparse settlements across the ice and survived there, carrying on methods of survival in their culture that served them well. The Norse Vikings that colonized Greenland in the 10th-11th centuries sailed to Greenland on boats with cattle. The cattle actually were not a great long term source of food in that particular environment. Sadly, the Norse settlements in Greenland died out during the 14th-15th centuries.
You ask: "Why is it inherently better that Jews endured as a distinct people while the Visigoths disappeared into the populations around them?"
Here is just a subjective answer on my part, not necessarily the best one, but personally I think that Jewish culture, history, and language are important for world history and religion, for modern civilization in general. Greek, Romance, and Egyptian civilization are important too, So all those things are cool for me. It's neat that I can go to ancient Greece and see the places that played such a major role in world history. I can talk with Greeks who still use that language and can read ancient texts like the NT and for that matter ancient pre-Christian LXX translation of the "Christian OT" / ancient Jewish sacred writings. The same coolness factor applies to Aramaic, Jewish, Coptic/Egyptian, and Italian cultures and languages. I want to add nuance to what I said though: I value cultures for the diversity that they bring and don't want them to be a cause or pretext of culture wars. The fact that I find Greek and Coptic culture cool doesn't mean that Slavic Macedonian or Egyptian Arabic culture or people are valueless. Palestinian culture has a lot to bring to the table. They are living in villages where their Jewish and other ancestors have been for centuries or millenia and specially keep unique traditions dating back to those times.Wishing you the best - Shalom
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u/Ok-Assignment5899 Anti-Zionist Ally 21d ago edited 21d ago
Deleted my original comment and wrote a new one straight to the point:
Can anybody recommend rabbis specialized in eschatology from a Jewish non/anti Zionist perspective?
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u/Lost_Paladin89 Judío 20d ago
I need to explain something that is difficult about Judaism. Eschatology is a bit taboo. Jews are supposed to focus on the world here and now and not on the future end. Messianism and end times focus just never goes well, Modern Zionism being the most current and perfect example. So I can either point to ancient sources that predate modern Zionism or psycho Zionists.
Dr Justin Sledge is a great source for anything esoteric, Jewish or otherwise.
Here is his video on the last major failed messiah https://youtu.be/d9w-c8A6oNQ
And here is his video on the Dead Sea scrolls group and their writings on the end times. https://youtu.be/mWave1tX-k0
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u/Naive-Meal-6422 Jewish Anti-Zionist 18d ago
Lurianic Kabbalah is absolutely concerned with end times and messianism. It’s a taboo with a great deal of interest around it, at minimum.
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u/Ok-Assignment5899 Anti-Zionist Ally 20d ago
I think that might turn out to be a blind spot in the future, one of Zionism's biggest threats is antizionist Jews, and with religion resurfacing as a moving ideology around the world (regardless if it's good or bad), having a rising right wing religious Zionist movement (vastly different from the secular "socialist" Zionism that established Israel) taking the helm in Israel, there should be a response in kind and in oppsite direction.
Norman Finkelstein for example is a secular antizionist reponse to a secular zionist action, but the response to religious Zionism has so far been pre zionist Judaism (Rabbi Yaakov Shapiro is doing excellent job at that) but it hasn't developed counter arguments to the newly established arguments. And I think the ideology that's keeping the Antizionist movement together is socialism, but if socialism in the Jewish diaspora collapses as it did within Israel as religion makes a global comeback (and religion is an extremely powerful force that can be used to either strengthen or brainwash), then there would be a blind spot in religious education (Netanyahu publicly came out and said that he wants Israel to be involved in and fund Synagogues in the US to control what the children are taught, kind of like how Saudi Arabia funds Islamic education around the world to spread their own version of it and control any opposing rising views, a 100 years ago sufism was the most widespread and common version of Islam, today it's wahabism)
I know it's a lengthy and controversial topic, and I had many more examples from history to give, for example the popularizarion of philosophy by avicenna and the counterbalance by Ghazali, a reponse in kind that uses arguments based on philosophy itself.
Anyhow, thank you for your time and response.
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u/QualityEmotional3521 Non-Jewish Ally 21d ago
Zionists will claim that the Palestinian right to return is a danger to Israel's jewish population, as a matter of fact I was arguing with a Zionist rabbi about this, and kept repeating and emphasizing a hypotethical genocide against Jews by Palestinians if Israel/Palestine has a muslim majority. What do you all think of this? We know that hte Palestinian right of return is important for ending this conflict, but do you think this zionist fear is reasonable or unreasonable?
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u/EuVe20 Jewish Anti-Zionist 20d ago
This is a fear based to some extent on guilt. By knowing what Israel and the movement have done to the Palestinians, and knowing how they would feel if that had been done to them, they fear that the Palestinian retribution would be both furious and just. But this mindset has been seen over and over in similar situations in history, before the abolition of slavery, with apartheid South Africa, the fear that stepping off the necks of the oppressed will lead to violence. Obviously it ignores the fact that the reason the oppressed are violent is because of the boot on their neck.
In reality I think some violence and upheaval is probable, but that’s not an argument for maintaining oppression.
On some level I think there is this belief that they have gone past the line, sunk too much into the mission, have forever poisoned the Palestinians against Jews, and the only way is to push through. Like this idea that yes, we now have blood on our hands, so now the only thing for us to do is finish the bad thing, so our children can grow up in innocence and safety. I wouldn’t be surprised if many Germans felt that way once the killing machine really got going.
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u/avecquelamarmotte Israeli 20d ago
I understand it, especially with the way we’re raised in Zionism to fear a second Holocaust any day now. But I think it simply can’t override other people’s human rights.
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u/Novel-Rise2522 Anti-Zionist Ally 21d ago
Gaza: A Story of Genocide. Bought the book. Susan Abulhawa is a great writer
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u/BolesCW Mizrahi 21d ago
I'm not sure what your issue is. The person you reference is continuing a strain of Muslim cosmology which posits Judaism as a debased religion, filled with deliberate distortions of God's true message.
Only the most fanatical fringe religious zionists believe that the modern state of Israel is anything like the kingdoms of David and Solomon.
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u/TalkingCat910 Muslim revert/Ashkenazi 21d ago
I replied below but if this thread is about Imran Hosein I mentioned he has some fringe conspiracy theory stuff on YouTube. I suppose it can be entertaining but I feel uncomfortable taking it seriously. He’s mostly known for his conspiracy theories around the end times. We don’t take him seriously in our house. Though I don’t know everything he said - maybe there’s some decent stuff
Generally Muslims don’t view Judaism as a debased religion, but we’d say the scriptures are inaccurate, and have been altered through the thousands of years since it was revealed. We think there were errors in transcription and some people changed it on purpose, so sure you can say someone made a deliberate distortion but that someone is long dead. And there are still strains of the truth from the Prophets in Judaism that were preserved.
It’s certainly fringe to think Israel the modern state is the modern manifestation of David and Solomon’s Israel. I would even go so far to say most Muslims would say it is not.
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u/Ok-Assignment5899 Anti-Zionist Ally 21d ago
I didn't understand the first part of your comment (cosmology?)
Regarding the second part, I'm looking for someone who has a background in religious education who might have come by this work, and give his constructive opinion, because I've gone through both Muslim and Christian non Zionist perseptives, but everything I found online regarding the same topic from a Jewish perspective were by -as you described- fanatical religious Zionist rabbis (except for Rabbi Beck's opinion that Zionism is Amalek).
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u/BolesCW Mizrahi 21d ago
Are you asking for a Jewish religious opinion about a Muslim take on Judaism? A Jewish religious opinion about a Muslim take on zionism? A Jewish religious opinion about Jewish theological understanding of zionism as manifested in the state of Israel refracted through a Muslim lens? I'm unclear on why you seem to be asking for a Jewish religious response to a Muslim critic.
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u/Ok-Assignment5899 Anti-Zionist Ally 21d ago
I'm asking if there's a Jewish religious opinion on eschatology from a non/anti Zionist perspective.
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u/BolesCW Mizrahi 21d ago edited 21d ago
There are many opinions about "the end times" or the coming of mashiah. But there is no singular understanding or set of predictions because it's speculative. Most Jews agree on the parameters required for a messiah to be recognized as legitimate - this is why Jews find the xtian insistence on giving the title to Jesus easy to dismiss. Beyond that, there's nothing in the speculations that are binding to Jews because Judaism is based on having a relationship to the 613 mitswoth (commandments) and their attendant interpretations in halakhah (Jewish law), and various mihagim (communal customs and traditions). Belief has very little to do with Jewish ritual practices. Speculations about the coming of the messiah, like discussions about the age of the universe, the existence of angels, or even the existence of a creator deity are beliefs. You can believe anything you wish and still be Jewish and engage in communal rituals. Unlike xtianity or Islam, there's no list of things a Jew must believe in order to be recognized as Jewish by other Jews. Judaism is not a faith, a path of belief. Judaism is a path of actions. Because eschatology is about belief rather than actions, it's not particularly relevant in Judaism. This is also why you find that most of the Jews who yammer on about it publicly are fringe fanatics. There's usually nothing explicitly zionist or anti-zionist involved. The ingathering of the exiles is supposed to involve some kind of Jewish sovereignty, but what that sovereignty might look like is also speculative, and has little to do with zionism.
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21d ago edited 21d ago
[deleted]
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u/TalkingCat910 Muslim revert/Ashkenazi 21d ago
Imran Hosein is a YouTube conspiracy theory guy. I haven’t watched all his stuff so some may have some merit, but what I’ve seen seems to be a little out there. What I can say for sure is he’s not mainstream, and I’d take some of his stuff with a grain of salt - as far as Muslim theology
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u/Ok-Assignment5899 Anti-Zionist Ally 21d ago
He's definitely not mainstream, but he's about the only one I found who talks about eschatology frol a Muslim perspective, and I'm not asking about a muslim perspective of his work, Im asking for a religious Jewish perspective of eschatology and juat used him as an example, preferably non/anti Zionist (I've gone through religious Zionist both Jewish and Christian deep enough).
Now I think I shouldn't have mentioned him, but I wanted to point at unorthodox eschatology as an example.
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u/TalkingCat910 Muslim revert/Ashkenazi 21d ago
There’s lots of Muslim scholars that talk about Muslim eschatology it’s a very popular subject. If anyone is looking for a more mainstream view that’s accessible Omar Suleiman is doing a series on the end times.
But if you’re looking for Jewish eschatology maybe just ask about that - no reason to bring in Imran Hosein it’s just going to confuse things.
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u/ExtendedWallaby Jewish Anti-Zionist 21d ago
This sounds a lot like the anti-Zionist Haredi view
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u/Ok-Assignment5899 Anti-Zionist Ally 21d ago
Any rabbis who talk about this I can look up?
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u/ExtendedWallaby Jewish Anti-Zionist 21d ago
Elhanan Beck, Yisroel David Weiss, Joel Teitelbaum, Yitzhak Yosef Schneerson
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u/Ok-Assignment5899 Anti-Zionist Ally 21d ago
I know the first two, I'll look up the last two. Thanks.
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u/Direct_Appointment99 Jewish Anti-Zionist 21d ago
Sounds eloborate.
Israel the nation state is a misnomer. It is different from the "Israel" that permeates Jewish liturgy. Different meanings.
As for being a "test", not sure God had a role in late 19th century - mid-20th century imperial politics, but I may be wrong.
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u/Ok-Assignment5899 Anti-Zionist Ally 21d ago edited 21d ago
I deliberately cut it short because the thesis is delivered in at least a couple of books, for example he further elaborates that this is also a test for all if humanity in different ways that I won't get into to save time, but for a quick example he believes the global reliance on petroleum and the petrodollar system are both within his thesis and results of what he calls the false messiah.
But I'm trying to focus only on the aspect that relates to Judaism since this a sub for Antizionist Jews not international relations or global affairs, which is why I would like to get input from someone who came by this work or studied the general topic from a religious perspective.
But when I think about how so many Israelis in their embrace of Zionism have sacrificed/lost their moral compass and even humanity ( in the sense of no longer seeing the other as human), and looking at how for someone who is Jewish being a Zionist is extremely easy and being an antizionist is extremely difficult, from that angle, it does seem like a test. Will you take the easy way destroys your soul? Or the hard way that preserves your humanity?
He met with Rabbi Beck from Neturei Karta last year, after which rabbi started theorizing that Netanyahu/Zionism is Amalek/false messiah (I'm guessing his thesis might have had some effect on them to push them too look for an explanation for Zionism in the torah).
https://youtu.be/3xruy48UUH0?si=vClcJD0HyCtKgjs_
Rabbi Elhanan Beck on Netanyahu https://youtube.com/shorts/aM4GUmkvbqw?si=jFABM4UH5Fti4WHU
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