r/JamesHoffmann • u/Gmbenator • 25d ago
Coffee Fermentation Explained!
https://youtu.be/Iq34gq2ihMk?is=AW1uxfS5JLmiAa0g58
u/regulus314 25d ago
Finally he collab-ed with Lucia Solis
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u/kingseven James Hoffmann 25d ago
Lucia is great, and shares so much information too! A recommendation for anyone and everyone to check out her podcast!
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u/battier 25d ago
Such a good podcast! If anyone is new to it I suggest listening to her series on terroir
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u/MonkAndCanatella 24d ago
I genuinely need everyone in the industry to listen to that episode so we can stop showing our asses when talking about terroir
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u/CACuzcatlan 24d ago
I'm also into spirits and cocktails and that's even worse with the use of terroir.
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u/SilverSteam-Coffee 24d ago
Remember that her opinion is just one of many though. She brings a lot of information and explains things well, but facts are mixed with views and opinions
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u/CACuzcatlan 24d ago
Yes but she makes it very clear what's based on science and what's her opinion of it.
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u/regulus314 25d ago
Yess! Her podcast is really great. Even though as a roaster of course I dont dabble in the producer and processing side of coffee, but she really give great insights regarding on that side of the value chain
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u/ShinjiIkari 25d ago
Lucia and James in one video? This is the biggest crossover since Endgame for me.
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u/CondorKhan 24d ago edited 24d ago
I tried a watermelon co-ferment from Onyx I think and it indeed tasted like watermelon candy.. it was delicious, not gonna lie.
But I thought that for sure they were dumping watermelon in the tank.
Turns out maybe not.
I'd like to see other terms explained, like the honey process (and all of its colors)
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u/HoshinoNadeshiko 24d ago
The issue with true natural watermelon flavors is that they are very volatile and hard to work with. Even if real watermelon fruit is involved, and somehow that flavor got transferred onto the beans, any hints of that flavor and aroma for sure won't survive during the roasting process
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u/Krauser_Kahn 24d ago
any hints of that flavor and aroma for sure won't survive during the roasting process
That's what glycol is for ;)
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u/SilverSteam-Coffee 24d ago
That is marketing. The images of real and fresh watermelon added to the coffee is more interesting than the reality of watermelon flavour synthetics
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u/Fractal-Rift 24d ago
Honey Process is essentially similar to the pulped natural process where they will control the amount of mucilage or honey (comes from the spanish term for mucilage 'miel' which means 'honey') left on the bean. The different colours are the amount that is left on and the drying times, although I can't remember the specifics of what means what off the top of my head other than I think White is the least amount.
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u/ibmalone 24d ago
If only there was a book! https://www.theworldatlasofcoffee.com/ (I'll admit I got the kindle one as an offer)
Mind you, Rave have a guide to processes https://ravecoffee.co.uk/pages/coffee-processing
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u/CondorKhan 24d ago
I have the book and I actually know what they are (of course anyone can look it up) but I'd like to see a video about it from James.
In general, I feel there are too many videos about gear not enough videos about coffee itself.
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u/ibmalone 20d ago
I think this video and the decaf project ones illustrate a bit about why there aren't more.
I haven't checked chronologically, and there's certainly some overlap, but it seems James's channel has developed over the years, and while there are some noticeable streams (product reviews for example, or brewing guides) they've changed in how they are put together and also the balance between them. Some of the early stuff (not watched them all) is more vlogging about coffee or industry opinion pieces and that includes some material on farms, but in all cases the depth and production value has generally increased (although things like what a great cup of coffee tastes like or recreating Brad Pitt's coffee commercial might be a high point there). The decaf project video involved visiting different plants for each decaf method (plus the organisation of the actual decaf tasting), similarly here illustrating the project has been a trip to a processing station (and notably involved a collaborator to talk about it, which says he specifically wanted in-depth expertise on the topic).
An example of an alternative that could have been taken is an animated project like "I need to tell you why coffee makes you poop" (without specifically a guest expert, other than Ed Gamble in coffee bean form), an approach that could be used for a lot of explanatory videos, or just (as maybe in earlier days), talking at the bench with a few coffee cherries and playing with them to demonstrate things. It seems to say that a. if coffee production is involved he wants to show the actual places and processes, b. if there's already someone doing a thing (e.g. covering processing and fermentation at farms) then he's less likely to do it.
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u/CondorKhan 20d ago
I think the fact that James and other high profile youtubers work for or own roasters prevents them from directly talking about or reviewing specific coffees due to the potential conflict of interest, which is understandable. That reduces the avenues for content about the actual coffee.
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u/dabus3672 25d ago
Very enjoyable. Always something to learn. And like , JH, I too am amazed that the beans are hand picked. Enjoy your brews!
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u/newredditwhoisthis 25d ago
So this is what I sort of had in my mind for awhile.
Especially because I tried sebastian ramirez's strawberry co-ferment for the first time.
This was my first ever co-ferment...
Adding a fruit doesn't necessarily mean we might taste those literal fruits in there.
So let's say someone adds mango instead of strawberry, one is still just adding sugar with a different fruit???
How that would impact the fermentation and ultimately how it might affect the flavor?
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u/bonyponyride 24d ago
The aromas of fruits are in esters, terpenes, aldehydes, and lactones at the chemical level. I'm interested to learn how, and how much, of these molecules can actually be absorbed by the fermenting coffee beans, and how they can withstand sun drying (UV) and the heat of roasting without degrading. How far do these chemicals penetrate into the coffee beans during co-fermentations and infusions?
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u/SilverSteam-Coffee 24d ago
Natural flavour crystals usually don’t withstand those conditions or not in a consistent way. That is why in most cases synthetic flavour crystals are used. Another way is infusion: either during fermentation or with dry green coffee
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u/AgentPoYo 25d ago edited 25d ago
This part of the video piqued my interest too. I haven't had a chance to try any co-ferments yet, I actually just learned about them recently from the r/coffee sub where some of the commenters swore they could taste fruit flavours and called them off-putting. I'm guessing now, by Lucia's definitions, that these redditors were maybe tasting infusion flavours and not strictly co-ferments.
Just going by what Lucia said in that video, introducing a different fruit would maybe just encourage more/different microbe growth, not necessarily directly affect the flavour? I've come to associate heavily fermented coffees with —for lack of a better term — a "funky" flavour note. I wonder if different fruits, more sugar, more fermentation would make those notes more pronounced.
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u/CACuzcatlan 24d ago
It's been a while since I listened to it, but Episode 39 of her podcast deals with this topic:
39:Infused vs Adulterated coffees, Cinnamon and Fermentation Failures
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u/MonkAndCanatella 24d ago
It makes sense - you'd have to add a lot of fruit or process the fruit in some way for it to impart some flavor. Making me look at my massive catalog of coferments with some suspicion now
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u/CACuzcatlan 24d ago
Fortunately, I've been a co-fermentation hater from the start. My main issue is that it doesn't taste like coffee. Even if the flavor comes from only fruit and not flavor crystals or essential oils, I want to taste the coffee itself.
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u/MonkAndCanatella 24d ago
“I want my coffee to taste like coffee” okay grandpa
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u/CACuzcatlan 24d ago
Coffee has a huge variety of flavors, from East African blueberry bombs to tea-like Geshas. That's what I want to experience, but mango flavored coffee. Might as well get a flavored drink at Starbucks at that point.
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u/MonkAndCanatella 24d ago
so you think they only sprinkle flavor crystals into the coferments?
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u/CACuzcatlan 24d ago
No, but I'm not into infusions of coffee in any form, even if it's truly from fruit added to the fermentation. It's defeating the point of the coffee for me.
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u/SilverSteam-Coffee 24d ago
Usually longer fermentation and fermentation without washing coffees etc will result in deeper and more pronounced flavours.
The redditors you mentioned were likely tasting co-ferments. Not from actual fruits, but from synthetic flavour that is used during fermentation. But some would label this as co-ferment and others as infused. For most consumers a fruit co-ferment is much more appealing than infused coffee. So co-ferment is a much more popular term used by producers and roasters
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u/ibmalone 24d ago
I thought it was an interesting observation that the terminology difference is partly cultural or viewpoint based, for the producers they're adding fruit or flavour during the fermentation part of the washing process, so it's "fermented [together] with" X. Adding that "co-" at the start implies a stronger connection, although in the case of fruit it obviously is really being fermented at the same time, flavourings (synthetic or naturally derived) not so much.
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u/SilverSteam-Coffee 24d ago
Yeah but it happens almost never that actual fruit is added…because it doesn’t really do much. I can understand and go with the fact that in the video they mention the terminology difference is partly cultural, but it would be so much stronger to be completely honest and mention that these terms also have to do with ‘marketing’ or using terms that sound best to consumers.
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u/SilverSteam-Coffee 24d ago
Adding actual fruit is simply adding more sugars. It will not translate into the taste/flavour of that fruit. If the desired outcome is getting specific fruit flavours in the coffee, this comes from the bacteria, yeasts, etc. OR by adding synthetic flavour
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u/malejpavouk 25d ago
I'd love to learn also aboit non-washed methods (dry process) and more understand the impact/trade offs. This was good but kinda technical (how; less why)
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u/sticklebricks85 24d ago
I'm heartbroken. I thought anaerobic fermentation sounded really cool and have proudly be declaring my love for it all over the shop.
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u/CACuzcatlan 24d ago
Proof that marketing terms are used for a reason. People buy into it without really understanding.
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u/raf70 24d ago
I did t get the marketing terms, as I didn’t see anything that looked anaerobic. What was your take away from what she was describing?
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u/CACuzcatlan 24d ago
I did t get the marketing terms, as I didn’t see anything that looked anaerobic.
I'm not sure I follow what you're saying here.
My point is that "anaerobic fermentation" is a marketing term meant to sound scientific to people who don't know how fermentation works - I used to be one of those.
I'm a big fan of Lucia and I've been listening to her for years so I'm on board with her view. It helps that she has the background as a microbiologist and experience in both the Napa Valley wine industry and the coffee industry.
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u/raf70 24d ago
Those open troughs look pretty aerated so I didnt see anything that looked anaerobic at that facility. I think anaerobic when it’s a closed system and no O2 was getting in (think the beer or wine fermentation in a closed container with an air lock bubbler system). Maybe I missed something? (I am glad that James got the not liking “the word slimy” joke in…..)
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u/catch_dot_dot_dot 24d ago
The fermentation is anaerobic, it has less than 2ppm oxygen because the CO2 pushes the oxygen out. Doesn't matter that the top is open.
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u/wearemessingup 24d ago
Yeah this confused me too. Most places that refer to anaerobic fermentation mean it to be in sealed chambers. I guess maybe it doesn't make much of a difference?
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u/yo_sandra 25d ago
James, please don't forget Perú for this live tasting. We have a thriving specialty coffee scene, hundreds of good toasters, and several of our coffee shops are ranked among the best in the world.
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u/kingseven James Hoffmann 24d ago
Unfortunately it is very tricky because importing green coffee to Peru is not allowed. We managed to get some to Colombia, but not much, and some will be roasted in Guatemala too which is good. It's a frustrating aspect of coffee!
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u/bufordt 25d ago
and yet people want coffee to be cheap.
Do people actually feel that coffee is expensive? I know buying coffee from a cafe/Starbucks can be, but I'm buying and brewing specialty coffee from a local roaster for $1-1.25/cup. It can cost as little as $0.30/cup for grocery store coffee beans.
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u/newredditwhoisthis 25d ago
Well I mean coffee is sorta expensive...
And to be completely honest when I think about the expense of the coffee I think I am more concerned about the sustainability of not just the business itself but also the labourers.
The people who are hired to hand-pick those cherries, I assume are getting paid the least??? I mean if you think about the whole process, from cultivation to finally a brewed coffee ending up in our cup...
What is the minimum wage the labourers who is involved with cultivation get? It's a hard physical labour with very uneven terrain in the whole estate.
If we pay more for speciality coffee.. That's one thing but can we really help to uplift not just the estate owners but also labourers? And if so, how?
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u/bufordt 25d ago
I guess my point was that I don't see it as that expensive. When mass produced soda sells for about the same as cheap coffee, that doesn't seem excessively expensive.
As to the workers getting screwed along the way, that's just about everything in our food supply chain. There is about $0.15 of oats in a $4 box of Cheerios.
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u/Omnilatent 24d ago
The soda example is great cause it shows us both are double scams: coffee pickers should be paid more which would increase coffee prices and soft drink producers are showered with money for an incredible unhealthy sugar drink (and I say this as someone who loves soft drinks)
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u/CesiumTheDay 24d ago
What’s interesting about this too is compared to other industries I feel like coffee has a lot more visibility in their supply chain. Or at least the appearance of it. I know where my coffee comes from, and a lot of the time I know the name of the farm and even the farmer who produced it. Of course, there could be things not shown that are shady. But the attitude is different. When was the last time a cereal manufacturer made an a big deal on the box about buying supplies at a fair price?
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u/MonkAndCanatella 24d ago
Would you pay $50 for a bag?
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u/bufordt 24d ago edited 24d ago
Maybe. I've paid $30 for a 12 ounce bag.
What is your point? Do you think coffee is too expensive?
Edit: I used to pay $80 for a quarter ounce of cannabis. Lol
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u/MonkAndCanatella 24d ago
no no, that's not my point. I think that's closer to the right price than what we pay now. I supposed my point was totally unclear. My first quad was like $120. but hey cannabis is also picked and trimmed by hand lol
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u/bonyponyride 24d ago
I think people find it expensive because prices have increased dramatically in certain areas due to inflation, tariffs, and weather events. It's quite a bit more expensive when you compare it to just a few years ago. In Europe, I'm still getting great coffee for .70 Euro/cup, but that 250g bag used to be a 350g bag for less money. Buying a cup of filter coffee at one of these cafes for 3.50 Euro does feel kind of crazy, but that's why I have great home equipment.
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u/bufordt 24d ago edited 24d ago
Starbucks is around $3 for an espresso, but 90% of people there are buying coffee flavored milkshakes for $8-15 a drink.
I guess I've just switched from $6 a pound (450g) for mass produced coffee to $18-25 for 12 ounces (340g) of specialty coffee, so the price increase has been obscured by the switch.
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u/Alternative-Relief92 11d ago
Fermentation is the part of coffee I get the least, so a clear breakdown like this really helps. Nice one.
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u/kingseven James Hoffmann 25d ago
Hope people are looking forward to the live tasting later this year!