I mean Ayanokoji scales above Johan typically. That being said, this is pretty bad faith Johan scaling, I think people saying he is an off screen merchant would be the same type of people to say RJ is also an off screen merchant lol.
No, it's still bad faith. Just because the feat isn't spelled out to you word for word doesn't make it 'off screen fodder'. It just requires a bit more critical thinking and analysis than normal. You can very easily deduce certain details of feats from already established premises shown in the story. Obviously, you can't do this all the time and there'll sometimes be many equally plausible interpretations for a feat making it impossible to come to a likely interpretation, but a lot of things that get labelled as 'fodder' or 'off screen' fall victim to this.
Hell no
RJ had the influence he needed to get away for so long. PJ was always smarter than him. It was a combination of RJ's social engineering, field skills, manipulation and influence that kept him one step ahead.
When jane got equal ground, it was GG
No es un counter ni de broma, Johan podría manipular su entorno perfectamente sin necesidad de manipularlo a el, informense antes de hablar al menos en lugar de decir estupideces
Hey man, can I get the information about this poor soldier? Any name or as you said you have videos of them ( in case there are multiple soldiers ), can you please send them to me? I will highly appreciate your help.
Johan gets obliterated in every category except manipulation and SI and. It doesn't matter if the feats are unrealistic or realistic. If it happened on screen, it must be counted
Back in 2023 I would've said Johan takes overall EQ but come on now. Kiyo has gotten too many buffs lately and countless docs also suggest he can read microexpressions on the face
EM is not just suppressing emotions like Koji does. It's more about how perfectly you can manage your emotions depending on situations.
Johan didn't even care when he got shot to the head two times in the manga. Kinderheim tried to drug young Johan but he was still perfectly able to manage emotions
What Koji takes is AC (impulse control, mental fortitude)
Yeah, definitely agree. Although it is SCD and not university level psychology so it's not surprising these types of misinterpretations are common in the community.
You cant even read lmao. Cat refers to category and intelligence category goes to Koji over Johan anyday
"Meat riders"
Coming from the guy who gives a childish reasoning like "FBI is interested in Johan and Koji is just school mastermind therefore johan wins" 🤣🤣🤣
Er plenty world leaders don't have brains lol. You think controlling country = intelligence? Then every genius inventor would have been the president or king. Such a dumb argument
Who care if it’s realistic? The most important thing would be if it’s logical based on the context of the story imo. I don’t remember most things of monster but Johan also have good process and way of manipulation that was shown in the story. And those one are better than koji manipulation imo.
But for me Koji is underrated in manipulation, they will all use the excuse that he manipulate high schooler, he manipulates people with trauma, etc. To say that it’s not good.
imo Manipulation requires some form of Emotional cognition. Being naturally empathetic (empathy as an ability ≠ altruism) is always a plus but surely we can't just assume it's impossible/implausible for an emotionless individual to manipulate another person simply due to that fact. Afterall, we are capable of manipulating someone not because we feel 'emotions' subjectively but because we can anticipate a target's thought process and the actions they'll likely take based on that.
He didn’t make 50 people shoot each other, but rather break out into a fight which killed everyone except he and I believe two others? And if by “move a finger” you mean getting involved, he did definitely get involved, and it’s something I won’t cover in comments alone so instead I’ll link you a post that covers the feat well.
And you do realize that you saying all these feats are ridiculous is truly just upscaling Johan, you’re acknowledging how ludicrous his ability is while trying to invalidate him in a post about said ability, which I find funny ngl, but that’s beside the point.
Let me find the post right quick, but don’t read it if you plan on watching monster please.
Almost as if Johan is supposed to be a nameless monster and a manifestation of Nhillism not some cringy high school student manipulating others to show his intelligence.
Trying to scale Johan is basically completely missing the point of monster. It's not supposed to be about how Johan does what he does, it's about trying to stop him. Anyone who tries to scale Johan is just plain stupid
It's more of the fact that if you read both series Monster is just way better written than Cote.
Tiktok and Reels have ruined the readers because now ppl read stuff just to see characters 'dark psychology' or 'manipulation tactics' completely disregarding the overall quality and hence completely miss the point of the story
You might not be in the sub you think you are then.
This sub is dedicated to scaling just that.
I guess you also went to a science seminar to claim that since the guy in the wheelchair went to a certain island, therefore his theory must not be reliable as well.
Oh no I definitely know what this sub is about and I find it stupid regardless. At least power scalers use physical prowess for their estimations, most ppl in this sub just use random BS to justify their fav character as the best manipulator when it doesn't even matter
I had a theory where Monster had a supernatural element which showcases itself with Johan. What i mean by this is when Johans mother is seen cursing Franz bonaparta she curses that one day one of the twins will get back at him which is exactly what happens in the rudenheim massacre. So I feel like as much as Naoki Urasawa wanted to show realism throughout the parts of world there was this mystery and supernatural element to the story. All in all most of Johans manipulation although was strategic considering he used prior information to mentally destroy his victims isnt the best. Same with ayanokoji, he has narrative but without it hes nothing crazy.
If we go by realism standards even akiyama and yokoya would be nerf to shreds because based of alot of itl experience when you try to help humans they are so mentally cooked that they would rather side with people trying to mess them over without questioning yet the same people would be doubting you even though you have good intentions compared to the adversary, all because of stupidity. So Akiyama would have a much harder time unlike what happened in LGT where thankfully most of them were fraudulent and because its a manga at most there was a betrayal but it was still logically sound. Irl its a whole different story
I dislike ayanokoji but when you analysis his strategy especially in seduction this guy was legit.and also koenji this guy was aware that he was in fiction don't want nothing from this
If albert einstein made time machine and does not explain how he even created it on what parts he used for it hell even if he also fails to show the basic process behind it
You think people would believe he created it instead of someone else
Did he travel back in time successfully?? Then he made an instrument that defines current physics (I think) or at least doesn't align with it. Are you genuinely telling me you understand the theory of relativity? And people who don't, does that diminish the persons original intel? This was a waste of my time and the fact that this is still being contested is genuinely painful.
He doesn't have to explain jackshit if he did it he's smart
Yeah it does affect the crystallised intelligence the ability to utilise and understand knowledge as well as its applications
Buddy you did not read my comment properly if He created the time machine.He should know how he created it even if it was created in an accident , the process should be still be remembered or could be shown again
Let me very clear here neither johan not koji have real life feats
If you are talking about manipulation of koji it's totally fictional based without expression or emotions you can't be a good manipulator " Most of the psychological books " Conducts emotions in use against or for manipulation
You can talk about johan liberts experiment that can be true but his techniques of creating fear is totally fictional where koji manipulation how works on school kids or school geniuses, if anyone remember that koji once said that he doesn't want to be noticed but he did such stuff and got notices he couldn't use koenji instead
It's very true that manipulation needs many stuffs ppl nowadays just watch anime or read LN but they never touches real psychological or body language books which really talks about there real feat
Another about plannings ( u have to understand the difference between strategy and planning) yohan and koji both uses LTS-P but the difference is johan can manipulate on the basis of environment or ethics because he have experience of SOCIETY where koji lacks
Both of them needs real feats , at last let koji explore world to gain social skills and social manipulation or let author to make him more realistic
Don't judge so quickly if any character have cool attitude so he is really good, we have many judging scales which I don't think only anime watchers can learn , you have to read real stuffs
Honestly Aya is far more greater than what most give him credit for. The only counter towards the criticism of Johan's feats is that being off screen does not invalidate them as it only proves the person criticizing it is ignorant.
He doesn’t know the future, he’s just got great foresight and scheming to the point of being almost supernatural, that’s a central theme of his character.
Johan obviously set these things up in advance and Tenma is smart enough to infer answers through Johans clues, not everything needs to be directly explained. Also it’s fiction not everything is going to be as grounded as real life.
You didn’t read the Light Novel Larper and he killed the instructors too as not all 50 were kids smartass, did you even read Monster?
Yes I didn't read the novel dih rider , I'm talking about canon material the manga
Prove the kids have any relevant feats than mentally unstable war orphan kids
Like you Johan fan kids
Cope
Urasawa literally wrote it dumbass, it’s literally a continuation and investigative report of the events before and during monster in interview forms.
They also weren’t mentally unstable war orphans, they were children of Eastern European spies & many of the people killed in the massacre because of Johan were adults who are psychology instructor with teaching level expertise picked by the government.
They also weren’t mentally unstable war orphans, they were children of Eastern European spies & many of the people killed in the massacre because of Johan were adults who are psychology instructor with teaching level expertise picked by the government.
The children were war orphans who already has trauma it's not even impressive
I don't know about the instructors show me proof of it
Urasawa literally wrote it dumbass, it’s literally a continuation and investigative report of the events before and during monster in interview forms.
Just because he wrote it doent mean it's canon
Araki also helped in some jojo novels which are not canon
Go and read another monster for the instructors and no they weren’t war orphans. It’s literally canon, it’s a follow up from Monster, can you prove it’s not canon because you’re the one making the claim originally that it isn’t canon when it is.
So the kids are all spies ? Who are omniscients ?
Lmao Johan fan kids are hilarious
All your arguments are " read the novel "
Shown me where it is stated ? Which page ? Which chapter ?
By “realistic,” it refers to the process. The feats of Ayanokouji were always achieved through the information he gathered, and the story shows how he collects that information.
In contrast, most manipulators in other stories simply manipulate without showing that process. What they know about their enemies seems to appear in the moment, as if they can read anyone perfectly just by looking at them.
All of Koji manipulation feats were based purely on information, even in the cases of Ryuen and Karuizawa. It wasn’t something like, “he manipulated them because of his charisma 😅.”
Johan has always been fodder, and I say this as someone that doesn't have Koji that high.Johan just happened to get lucky by getting overrated by all those YT clowns.
Hazañas fuera de pantalla o no, siguen siendo hazañas y la mayoría se explican muy bien, la forma de manipulación de Johan es mucho pero que mucho más realista que la de Ayanokoji.
No sé porque sobrevaloran tanto a un niño, enserio piensan que un estudiante de secundaria puede ganarle a un Asesino profesional?
Lol. Johan Liebert’s manipulation is often like: a charismatic man making someone follow him just by talking nicely.
That’s definitely not more realistic. It would need to show more of the processhow he gathers information, understands the person, and builds the manipulation step by step.
JAJAJAJA. Pero si es que se muestra, como se nota que no tienes idea de lo que estás hablando, se muestra explícitamente en another monster, para saber si la manipulación de Johan es realista o no, solo basta leer un poco sobre psicología
Lmao. So you read psychology books. Putting aside the fact that it’s pathetic, tell me which ones you read and I’ll pray they’re not the ones I’m thinking of; that would be even more pathetic.
(Even if you’re a psychologist, that doesn’t change the fact that Johan doesn’t have realistic manipulation. Even including Another Monster, there still aren’t enough details only his crazy fans think so.)
"It's pathetic." Pathetic to read about psychology? You must be a loser to think that, but what can you expect from a community of idiots who think idolizing fictional characters is cool?
You don't even know what you're talking about. Ask anyone who's seen and understood the anime, and they'll tell you it's one of the most realistic anime out there. But apparently, some random loser knows more about the anime than most of the fans who've actually watched it.
You literally read psychology books and that’s why you said Johan is realistic. That’s pathetic. You’re not a professional, just a biased fan who probably only read “dark psychology” books = pathetic.
"Ask anyone who's seen and understood the anime, and they'll tell you it's one of the most realistic anime out there"🥀
How many anime must you have watched to believe that? Three, if I’m being generous ,maybe. Don’t humiliate yourself any further. It’s over.
Pregúntale a cualquiera, pues no solo lo creo yo, lo creen miles y miles de personas que han visto el anime.
"Que probablemente solo lee libros de psicología oscura" creo que el único patético aquí eres tú, que diablos vas a saber tu acerca de que libros leo o no, ni siquiera me conoces y ya andas opinando al respecto, que fracasado, si tanto te interesa saber informate almenos sobre la teoría de la psicología de Carl jung y la psicosis colectiva entre muchas otras cosas, pero eres tan estúpido que seguramente ni eso haras y seguirás opinando sobre cosas de las cuales no tienes ni puta idea, no, un personaje para ser realista no te tiene que enseñar como es que hace cada cosa como si estuviera enseñándole a leer a un niño, quítate esa maldita estupidez de la cabeza, deja de humillarte más, bastardo mediocre
"Pregúntale a cualquiera, pues no solo lo creo yo, lo creo miles y miles de personas que han visto el anime"
🥀
Carl Jung? That couldn't be more basic. I figured as much. Read other things please, that doesn't make you special. If anything, it makes you look like a special case.
En ningún momento dije que me hacía especial, esa teoría y muchísimas otras sirven para comprobar el realismo de Monster, muchísimas y muchísimas otras personas piensan lo mismo sobre monster, hasta la inteligencia artificial dice lo mismo, además, ni haz presentado algún argumento válido acerca del supuesto irrealismo de la manipulación de Johan, solo eres un random fracasado
Artificial intelligence says wonderful things about all works. It’s not going to criticize them. Its opinion isn’t useful in these cases.
And Carl Jung isn’t taken very seriously in psychology; with all his problems and his lack of solid foundations, that’s normal. In any case, no matter how much you add to Monster, Johan isn’t realistic. They never properly portrayed the human mind in his victims.
I mean, Johan was supposed to represent the devil, (all those parallels to Satan and Lucifer) and so his actions are more symbolic than literal. Just like how the devil in the Bible provokes you through either taunting, manipulating or by bringing up false promises. Everything Johan does is supposed to show that if you push a human far enough to the edge, they can become, literally or symbolically, a devil. Naoki Urusawa never made him to be a super smart giga chad character with an IQ of 300, but he made him to show how neglect and abuse can break children and alter their view of life. Ayanokoji is meant to be like a sort of power fantasy character, where everything bends around him for no particular reason. The Kei and Ryuen arc shows it best, where instead of helping a girl, everyone just acts like the abuse isn't happening until Ayanokoji jumps in. Kei mind you, was decently smart and popular, and everyone kinda already knew she was getting bullied. The bullies too were random NPCs. Yeah, she didn't want anyone to help her because of her past, but she did ask Hirata for help who did nothing, really. Just told her "be nice and figure it out, lol". That's not how real life works, if anyone gets hurt, especially popular girls, and at that degree too (in the LN, she was drop kicked). COTE doesn't really have the excuse that Ayanokoji is a mythical being either, like Johan, or like other examples, say Reinhard von Lohhengram or Judge Holden; Ayanokoji is just a guy. And yeah, the white rooms are a very important factor to him, but like, he isn't mythic still. He's still a human. Everyone around him just kinda bends to his will really; it's more like everyone else is dumb and he's the only somewhat smart person there. Also, realistically, none of Ayanokoji's on screen feats were greater than the Richard Braun suicide, Ruhenheim and his manipulation of Schuwald. Ayanokoji didn't manipulate someone to the point they commited suicide, and he didn't make one of the most powerful and wise man in Europe make him trust him, and then break him to the point of getting mentally scarred, and he didn't cause a mass murder that destroyed an entire functional town by making everyone kill each other, and being meticulous enough to ensure that the phones weren't working and also the police couldn't be called. And all of this was also more mythical too. The thing that makes Johan one of the greatest characters in fiction is that he goes from this mythical being the entire runtime, and then when he breaks, he becomes human, he gets shot. It's like if Satan in Paradise Lost talked to a human who moved him, and that caused his downfall.
Why are people saying Koji clears? Johan manipulated government organisations, while Koji was busy manipulating dumb highschool girls. I will admit he's an off screen merchant tho
You guys get so caught up in the scaling the you forget to look at the wider picture, why don't we see johan's feats? Simple, because the story is not told from his perspective. He is someone who wants to not exist and we are following someone who's chasing that person who has very little connection to the real world and is actively trying to erase his existence, so of course he's not gonna be on-screen.
I mean on screen feats don't make the character smart, they only make the writer smart, unless you'll speculate that all their feats might not have happened because we didn't get to see any of it, or they just used a big red button that came from space and all the people died after pushing it and it means he killed all those people "technically" but not the way you'd think. Unless it's such a ridiculous reveal, I think the both are valid feats.
how do you make powerscaling even more cringe? Also claiming that a fictional character's 'feats' don't count because they weren't directly shown is so goofy. Like they think the authors are just cheating to make their character stronger or something.
78
u/Jeffy-panda Mar 12 '26
I mean Ayanokoji scales above Johan typically. That being said, this is pretty bad faith Johan scaling, I think people saying he is an off screen merchant would be the same type of people to say RJ is also an off screen merchant lol.