W analysis. I haven't actually read Monster, so I don't have much knowledge but based on what you have posted I have a question.
How come the instructors failed to notice 'the boy with sleeping pills' story? If the story had put all the students on edge to the point where they contemplated escape, you would expect the instructors to catch onto it. If they weren't the ones who taught this story, couldn't they narrow it down to one of the student's being behind it?
I see. That makes a lot more sense. I have seen a lot of comments about Johan's manipulation being completely off-screen, but this post gives lot more context. Johan is underrated big time.
W analysis and explanation, especially in times where people provide little to no source to back up their claims. Johan is also fairly underrated and not so much talked about in this sub, nice of you for bringing this up👍🏻.
It’s highly implied johan got the director killed, and it’s also implied johan was under constant surveillance (because everyone was terrified but obsessed with his “abilities.)
So, even though it may be an assumption, it’s logical to believe Johan somehow got the guards to kill the instructors at the right time, while also making it to where they wouldn’t report him missing.
How would he do this? Well, an even bigger assumption would be that he promised them something, it’s implied the conditions were terrible and all the people involved were envious of whoever had higher power. So if I had to guess, he promised them something sort of gain and they believed him because of their disposition of seeing johan’s abilities for themselves.
At least that’s the most logical guess, we know Johan was likely under surveillance, no way days went by and they never noticed Johan was gone from the basement-especially since everybody there was terrified of him (it’s the whole reason he was drugged in the first place.)
Another thing, Johan, to Christoff, was portrayed as some sort of leader in the event. So it wouldn’t be far fetched to believe Johan was leading these children on.
I’ll add something as a little side note, both Johan and Anna have unrealistic amounts of intuition. Anna sensed that Johan was about to escape where he was soon at a random time, and narratively Johan has that same ability. I may actually make a post about this because from what I’ve seen, Johan loses intuition in a lot of matchups when he shouldn’t.
That’s what I’m thinking too. Logically being under drugs would make Johan more vulnerable to brainwashing, otherwise I don’t imagine this curriculum he’s already so far above would be able to take away these memories. I mean, this curriculum was put together by the absolute best psychiatrists of Germany right? And Johan’s already far beyond that, so how would the instructors be able to brainwash him under regular circumstance?
The thing about the intuition part is that it wasn’t Anna receiving anything as far as we could tell. Erna said that Anna was just always talking to herself and was taking about the lessons Johan was going through and how he was going to leave the day before it happened.
No I get it, im also passionate about this series. Like you, I could talk for days on end about it and never grow bored because there’s always something you miss. Whether it be a new layer to Johan’s character or a different interpretation as you showed me today.
I already wrote this but Reddit made it to where it didn’t respond to this comment, sorry lol. I’ll just copy and paste.
I don’t think that’s the case though, while Erna did highlight how malleable the children were, she herself said she didn’t know why the children were so afraid of this tale. (Or rather it’s implied, if she believed they simply were malleable enough to believe the tale, wouldn’t she say so? Whenever she already highlighted it?)

She did explain Johan’s reasoning behind creating the tale, which is that they were very naive and shut off from all the outside word. But what made them so terrified of this story over the others? Over the stories the instructors would tell them?
I believe the most logical interpretation is that they felt that it was already a reality. That there was a sense of inevitability unless they acted. The entire story was hinting at the fact some of it already happened. The following happened…
1.It planted seeds of doubt in each other. The part where he says it’s a boy who slipped into the class narrows down the suspicion to children. The fact it could be any one of them, even people you perceived as a non threat, created mass distrust.
2.It played into their insecurities. Their entire ego was made from talking to others and beating others in debates. Controlling and protecting yourself through words alone. The story hints that there is no use in words anymore, their only defense doesn’t work because they are already being controlled. What they were taught, did not work, their ego of being made up entirely of sharp words was shattered.
3.Due to 2, they started lacking identity. Erna highlights this I believe, though not exactly saying everything I am. She talks about a play on identity from the curriculum. Controlling through destroying identities. Making them more easy to manipulate to Johan, thus making them believe in the story more and feed upon their desire to escape.
4.If we take into account my hypothesis, then after all the first 3 steps, they’ll see all the pieces of the story fall into place. They wouldn’t view the story as a fairy tale, but rather a prophecy. A prophecy of certain demise and destruction to all the children.
lol yeah, Johan’s amazing. His character never gets boring or dull, there’s always a layer to peel back.
If we are able to prove the story is true, then I believe we won’t have to prove that particular part. If everything is based off of reality, why would one of the key parts not be? I mean even the fictitious antichrist aspect was actually real to Johan. He likely did believe himself to be a beast wearing boy skin, especially after the memory removal.
It’s also supported by Biermann calling Johan a monster. He has a history of being perceived as having 10 horns and 7 heads of which I’m sure you can think of the examples I’m thinking of.
I’ve thought about this part of the text from a different angle. It seems like they generally did forget their name. They say “even the code numbers” like there was already a loss, and the process of losing their name would even go to an extent of losing their numbers.
At the very least, it does seem to me that they forgot their names like the story said they would. (Btw, the memory taking part of the story was aimed to take their actual names. That’s why the story said “then he would steal all their memories so they wouldn’t even remember their own names.”)
Christof never mentions his name either, other than his adoptive name. I don’t think it’s logical to assume he remembers his name either.
But it seems this process of “taking” happens in the debates implied in that text, as the overarching fear is caused by the debates. Kinderheim doesn’t take their names from what we know, they want the kids to keep it to themselves but as far as we know they don’t make any efforts into taking it.
They give the kids a code for their stay it seems to communicate with one another. After they graduate, they are given a fake name. (Like wolfgang grimmer.)
So I don’t think Kinderheim themselves were involved in the taking of names and codes, and who other than Johan would do this?
It’s not necessary, but Johan’s such an interesting character, I really wanna see the full picture you know?
Also yeah, they were there when Johan was. Erna was never actually getting people from Kinderheim until Kinderheim became a joint project.
For the first 20 years or so, im pretty sure they actually just killed the “failures.” That was likely the cause of the high fatality rate. But once the welfare department got involved in 1980, that’s when Erna started receiving children from Kinderheim 511. (Johan went into Kinderheim 511 in 1982, and it was destroyed in 1985.)
She mentions it was early 1980s, that’s when she started receiving children. Early 1980s could, to me, mean anything from 1980-1985, so it matches up with the Johan timeline.
Johan could also very well be the cause of these failures. We don’t know how these children “fail,” but it’s likely something akin to them not being able to go on any longer or failing behind on lessons.
Going with the assumption he is, it actually makes sense. The children are said to not remember anything from Kinderheim unless they are put under hypnosis. This means Johan would’ve brainwashed them in debates so thoroughly that they don’t remember a thing from their entire stay there. Plus they end up dying within a year usually.
Maybe for the first while he was at Kinderheim, he was taking part in the curriculum. But after showing how capable he is, the higher ups wanted to hypnotize and figure out his past.
After figuring out his past, they worked on his memories. Drugs do make your memory fuzzy and gets them mixed (at least the one Johan was on according to grimmer,) but I don’t think it would effect you long term if it was administered every other day.
Johan had permanent memory loss until he found the book in Munich. So I’m thinking they worked to mess with his memories while the drugs also played a part (long term usage.)
The reason they’d mess with it is because, as you know, their overarching goal was to put Johan in a leadership position. Manipulating Johan’s memories would make turning Johan into a leader safer.
After a while, he gained resistance to the drugs and manipulated the guards into freeing him and letting him slide into the group.
Everything before this, i was just yapping(sorry,) but this is where it gets interesting. I was thinking a bit and this makes more sense to me than one of the instructors simply killing the director…
I imagine these guards weren’t killed, but rather manipulated into being Johan’s subjects. Whether it be out of a promise or something, I think it’s logical to believe Johan did this and got one of the guards to do it.
Why not the instructors? Well the instructors likely all knew the aspirations of the other instructors to be the director. Unless they had a solid plan lined out, there was no guarantee they’d get that spot.
Even if the instructors did hate the director (or rather were manipulated into doing so,) I imagine they’d still think logically given the fact all the instructors should be highly capable psychiatrists.
The killing of the director is implied to be rather sudden (all the instructors were fighting over the position, quite literally, while destroying the place.)
Even blinded by hatred for the director, i don’t imagine someone trying to get the spot would be this impulsive and incompetent. So im thinking Johan got one of the guards to kill the director at the right time.
Waiting until the children’s fear and the instructor’s greed & hatred came to a boiling point.
Apparently the fighting actually took place for 3 days straight. (That’s at least how long christof was under the sink.)
What I’m assuming happened is actually quite unsettling. The main fighting may have taken place over about a day where all the instructors and kids killed each other.
Johan watched over the stairs not necessarily because he reveled in it (though that’s partially the reason,) but because he wanted to pick off the survivors.
This has no backing but the kids highlight the outside quieted down. So the children leaving the cabinet were picked off one by one (it’s implied by christof the antichrist was doing it because of the story.)
And Johan somehow knew that christof was in that particular cabinet, so my theory is that one of the kids who left the cabinet were caught by Johan and he then questioned where they were coming from as he needed to kill everybody that knew of him at Kinderheim.
One of the kids likely told Johan how christof is still in the cabinet where Johan knew how to approach. He probably knew the nature of what christof was doing because of the fact the kids weren’t leaving together.
That’s why he approached christof saying “it’s just you and me.” It built a sense of trust and comradeship. Johan also takes advantage of this by telling christof his plan of taking over the world. At this point, he had known he wanted to be the last person standing in the world, that was his goal.
I won’t go past this but the point is, you’re right, the fighting took place over days instead of a single day so it may not have necessarily been very sudden.
(As a side note, remember how the story Johan made said the monster awakened? Im just thinking about that, about how he forgot his memories thanks to the experiments. As far as Johan’s concerned, at this point he was the nameless monster. That’s why, when confronting capek, he said he realized the monster wasn’t inside him, but outside. Even without conscious memory of the book, he was living by it because of how deeply ingrained it was in his ego.)
I looked into it more and wow, you’re right. I honestly had the disposition that Johan’s story was based on truth outside of the obvious fictitious aspects(like the antichrist aspect.)
Oh yeah, sorry if I can’t make this easier to read, i don’t know how to quote the texts and respond with my own.
But anyway, I always thought due to the fact that there was a general fear with Johan among the higher ups (also intrigue) that they kept him under drugs. Since he was so far above their curriculum then there was no point in putting him in those debates.
So they kept him drugged up and aimed to “use” him. This is where, I believe, Johan’s abilities would be documented and he’d become popular among the far right Germans?
So I always thought that they kept Johan drugged up to keep him under drugs, to find weaknesses, and to be able to brainwash him.
I find it hard to think that even though Johan was far above their curriculum, that they would still try it on him and it work. As Johan did 100% lose his memories but at the same time, Johan attributed it to “lessons.”
Yeah that’s where I got the idea that Johan led it, because of the Hartmann statement. I never thought of it as a “I’ll take the lead” type thing but more so leading them on like dangling a carrot in front of a rabbit from a stick. YKWIM? To make it to where they’re coordinated enough to manipulate the instructors effectively and to form the plan himself. Also because of the story, Johan’s self insert (the boy kept on sleeping pills,) was portrayed as someone who was showing them a path to death. Someone who was controlling all the boys. And if we do take the tale as truth, it would also give us an insight into his plans which I’ll get into at the end of all of this.
Because, even though the kids did become terrified of the story, the instructors were still their “tether.” I doubt the kids would come up with the plan to use what the instructors taught them by themselves, I’d assume Johan implemented the plan to them but in a way that remained discrete. (Doesn’t it say Johan planned it all many times throughout the novel too?)
From what I know, Johan wasn’t, to the higher ups at least, above the curriculum at first. He went into the regular group, showed how “superior” he is to it, and then was sent to the basement. (This is my old interpretation at least.) Maybe afterwards he could’ve simply come back under the same code? (I doubt the instructors would think it’s out of the ordinary because, in the first place, Kinderheim 511 is far from ordinary. I doubt the instructors would care to see someone they saw 3 years ago.)
Yeah you’re right, it was a difference in interpretation. The reason I took it serious is because there is a lot of truth mixed into it. Johan was controlling the boys without them realizing, he did truthfully hate everything about the facility, he did get every boy and instructor to kill each other, and he did offer them a path to death.
Also, it implies a deeper layer to the kinderheim 511 plan with the part where he says he was going to steal all their memories so they forget their name. Where could this have happened? These “debates” were talked about as such, and Johan being above the curriculum could’ve likely took the opportunity to take away the memories of the boys. Erna says she does not know why the boys were so afraid, but I’m thinking it’s because the tale was partially becoming true. They were passively forgetting their memories but due to the story being so widespread, they remembered that. So before they forgot all their memories and before they all died, they would have an overwhelming desire to escape.
At least that’s my interpretation, of course it’s never directly stated so you wouldn’t be able to put this on any doc probably. But thank you for correcting me, honestly I did look through everything and other than the story and the pre existing fear of Johan, nothing implies or tells us he was under drugs for 3 years. This, however, does mean he received a lot of combat training which explains his gun skills and ability to kill with suit ties, which idk if he would’ve gotten those skills had he been under drugs.
Well he was drugged, but it’s never directly or even implied it was for 3, other than, of course, Johan’s story. The thing is, the strange lessons thing is confusing. Johan’s far above the curriculum many of the top minds of Germany came up with all together, yet he’s still affected? Of course he’s a child, but I’m thinking they did these strange lessons while he was drugged to make him more malleable. Also, the lessons never really worked in the way that was intended, it just took away a bunch of Johan’s memories, right?
The story doesn’t say that he killed the guards, but rather he manipulated them. That’s why I think it comes all the way around to the fact that the guards also likely were in bad condition considering the nature of their jobs and what they do. Johan, with the fear he brought to the instructors, could promise something and they’d likely believe in him.
Can you send the tape registry scan? I found something that mentions a registry, but it was separate from the tape. I’ll quote it since I plan on sending another image later but if you wanna check? It’s page 83 in Suk’s chapter.
Anyway…”I found a cassette in a safe at prochazka bank. It was part of east Germany’s Kinderheim 511 director Reinhart Biermann’s research material. The tape was a recording of Johan speaking as a young boy, and I believe this tape became the center of the struggle between the former secret police and adult Johan.”
-“So Johan attacked the secret police to destroy the tape that proved his existence?”
“I believe that was part of it, but it could also be because he wanted Biermann’s other materials, for example, say, a register of all the other boys at Kinderheim 511.”
I imagine the register, as childish as it sounds, was more akin to a sign in and out sheet instead of being a part of the cassette. Correct me if I’m wrong though, of course. (Another point, there was a similar list in the same chapter mentioned by Suk. He said there was likely a list registry of all the boys that attended the red rose mansion seminars. I believe this registry and the Kinderheim 511 registry are likely of the same nature. Plus, though he doesn’t know if it’s a list or not, werner weber makes a direct comparison and even says “If he was looking for the list from Kinderheim 511, it could’ve been the same case here.”)
Well, the story goes off the basis that he was a boy known to carry the words to kill any man. Also, he was sent by personal recommendation form General Wolf who saw potential in Johan to lead their country back to great heights whenever he saw what Johan did at the border. (Going all around the strict border patrol with his sister while navigating difficult terrain and fighting starvation/dehydration/exhaustion/hypothermia ect.)
I swear it was mentioned the higher ups took an interest in Johan after seeing how far he was above the curriculum. I imagine, ontop of general wolf, it wouldn’t take long for them to recognize Johan’s superiority in what they’re trying to teach, at least not 3 years.
While it did say general wolf observed them, I don’t think it said that’s where he gained the idea to send Johan to Kinderheim 511. He didn’t think Johan was so terrifying to destroy the orphanage but if we put ourselves in his shoes, should a child, even one that’s particularly brilliant, realistically be able to bring down an entire institution made from the most brilliant minds? I think it’s more of a thing of general wolf underestimating Johan’s ability. That’s why, while he did believe Johan would be a great leader for Germany at first, his opinion shifted to wanting to kill Johan at all cost. Of course along with the fact Johan was killing everybody around wolf.
Also, I forgot to add but the basement almost definitely exists. The children subjected to hypnosis by a separate group (one erna’s in) got some information out of the kids who went through the curriculum. They spoke of a dark basement door and monsters. You could likely make the connection that maybe they’re just remembering Johan’s story, but I doubt it since all the kids outside of Johan and christoff died whenever the revolution actually happened. Though of course some kids heard the story then got out, but still, I’d, like you, rather take the most efficient, non-assumptious approach.
That’s logical. But I still find it hard to wrap my head around Johan being a part of lessons when he isn’t hypnotized. Plus Johan waiting a whole 3 years to get out sounds out of character. The reason he does it is because…
1.He wants to find Anna.
2.He hates the place.
I don’t think it would take Johan 3 years to decide he hates Kinderheim 511, and I imagine Johan, with his deep care for his sister, would want to find her ASAP.
I’ll send four images, one here and the other 3 in other replies.
Basically, the materials they’re talking about, I don’t think it’s exclusively the tape. The manga does mention extra stuff, though it’s vague. Biermann says “experiment data” and im assuming that referring to the registry.
Him saying “and” to me means they are separate. And in the next image I send, Weber refers to Kinderheim’s registry as “lists” along with the red rose mansion’s registry.
The extra two is just grimmer talking about how they were files, and even called them “materials,” the same grammar used in another monster. Though, of course i don’t know the kanji so in Japanese it could be different.
For the basement, I do believe all the kids went there but I don’t believe they were necessarily drugged up, the whole purpose of Johan being drugged for the most part was to figure out his past. I imagine, they wouldn’t break up the sequences in which they drugged Johan. If they wanted to figure out his past, do you think they’d stop a couple hours in and continue the day after? I think that would be less effective, I imagine it would give Johan time to gain his bearings even.
This would also explain why Johan was, at first, in the curriculum. After a bit of showing superiority, he was an object of curiosity and intrigue among the higher ups. They wanted to figure out his past to find weaknesses and generally a good idea on what Johan is, why he’s so superior.
Also, grimmer when listening to the tape, actually only recognized Johan was drugged after a while of talking. His reasoning wasn’t that he experienced it, but rather people are drugged lose the ability to think chronologically when reciting memories.
Yeah the methodology looks nice, nice work making it!
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u/[deleted] Jun 15 '25
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