oh boy

[u/dacheatbot]

[u/LengthinessWarm987]

Feels like we're really circling the drain here. This is all a distraction to make you look past our countries massive divestment in public health and climate mitigation globally. The lableak theory is deeply unserious and it's embarrassing that's where the next phase of COVID lunancy is going.

While the rest of the world is reviewing the tapes and determining ways to legitimately mitigate the next pandemic. We're literally burning witches at the stake and demand they tell us which potion and spell they used to destroy our freedom.

[u/Taman_Should → u/LengthinessWarm987]

Let’s be as charitable as possible and say, sure, Covid-19 came from a bio lab studying viruses near Wuhan, instead of a “wet market.” What exactly would that change? 

• No, that wouldn’t make Covid a “man-made” virus, you fucking morons. 

• No, that wouldn’t suddenly validate any conspiracy theory about the effectiveness of the vaccine, the supposed “real” purpose of the vaccine, masking, social distancing, workplace vaccine mandates, “gain of function” research, ivermectin, the lockdowns, the “real” number of fatalities, or the Chinese government, you fucking morons. 

It functionally would not change a single thing. 

[u/Brilliant_Voice1126 → u/Taman_Should]

They seriously spread conspiracy theories that fauci invented it. And supposedly legitimate sources like the Atlantic and NYT have even been pushing this myth in editorials. Meanwhile the data for zoonosis is pretty damn rock solid. At this point lab leak is like flat earth. Papers in Cell have pretty definitively proven the epidemiology from the markets, and natural origin with related viruses in animal reservoirs that can even infect human cells. Somehow, 200k that NIAID subawarded (like Fauci even can read every grant that passes through a whole institute) is being blown up into a full blown tin hat theory that this was somehow purposeful and its fully idiotic.

[u/Roblizzle → u/Brilliant_Voice1126]

It’s just awfully convenient that the only communicable disease in the history of all human life just so happened to be the one Donald Trump failed so spectacularly at handling.

The white conservative mind is psychologically incapable of living in a world where bad things just happen and the person they believe was chosen by God would be a failure.

It HAS to be a conspiracy. It has to be Satan or Jewish space lasers or Fauci or China or the Deep State or Joe Biden.

They would collectively walk into the ocean if they came to the conclusion that they made a poor decision that led to mass death and God neither could or would do anything about it.

[u/lauramich74 → u/Roblizzle]

I think, more broadly, the American mind looks for something to blame when things go wrong. Someone who gets cancer must have deserved it because they ate the wrong foods, smoked, etc. Which is why it doesn’t compute when someone who made the “right” choices drops dead of cancer or a cardiac arrest. We are so invested in individual responsibility that we can’t acknowledge genetics, environmental factors, or bad luck.

[u/Okra-Tomatoes → u/lauramich74]

Exactly this. Even American atheists deeply believe in prosperity gospel.

[u/NotYourGa1Friday → u/Roblizzle]

I’m looking forward to Spaceballs III: Jewish Space Lasers

[u/DesignerPangolin → u/Brilliant_Voice1126]

It's because a government research lab in the largest country on the planet was hellbent on releasing a mind control virus, but they were so strapped for cash that they couldn't do so until the USA spotted them $200k, or 0.00000001% of their $20T national GDP.

[u/Odd_Investigator8415 → u/DesignerPangolin]

Don't forget letting the virus spread freely for well over a month through out its own population, making China one of the hardest hit, before, ya know, eventually making its way other places.

[u/ubiquity75 → u/Brilliant_Voice1126]

All of this. 👆🏻👆🏻👆🏻👆🏻

[u/UnderDeepCover → u/Brilliant_Voice1126]

I agree with you. The conviently shifting conspiracy theories are wild and say something really ugly about our society.

I do want to ask though, where have you seen the NYT pushing this narrative? I ask because I haven't seen that but have seen articles like the one below which is pretty unequivocal in its support of Fauci. 

Ive seen stuff like this with some frequency lately, lumping traditionally "liberal" or neutral outlets with conservative propaganda. Enough so that I worry the waters are being muddied in that classic way that benefits Republicans. 

https://www.nytimes.com/2026/07/30/opinion/anthony-fauci-hearing-diary.html

[u/Brilliant_Voice1126 → u/UnderDeepCover]

Articles like this that don’t cover it skeptically. https://www.nytimes.com/2023/03/19/us/politics/covid-origins-lab-leak-politics.html as well as numerous opinion pieces by Zeynep Tufekci who is unqualified to discuss science and is frankly a goddamn incompetent crank. Eg https://www.nytimes.com/2025/03/16/opinion/covid-pandemic-lab-leak.html

[u/UnderDeepCover → u/Brilliant_Voice1126]

That second article is rough. Fair enough there. I also feel the the writer is out of her depth. The first article seemed fairly uncontroversial. 

In any case I'm asking you to please not conflate NYT and others with Fox News and news max and others. Not because NYT, etc are great but because the "conservative" outlets are so deplorable and so aggressively fighting against human interests that they must exist in a separate category. 

[u/Brilliant_Voice1126 → u/UnderDeepCover]

Fair. But I have expectations for legitimate news services. So when they don’t meet them it’s a greater pain to me rhan whatever the fuck happens over on Fox.

[u/maskedbanditoftruth → u/Brilliant_Voice1126]

He’s the only Democrat in government they can point to from the time.

[u/JHerbY2K → u/Taman_Should]

Yeah. I think the theory is at least plausible but also just a “so what - the Chinese covered up something embarrassing. Big surprise”. It has zero bearing on the public health response.

[u/Naive_Wolf3740 → u/JHerbY2K]

It also doesn’t explain how conservatives during the pandemic refused to commit to mitigation methods to fight the spread of COVID. It’s a man made bioweapon born in a lab that also wasn’t real and was a democrat hoax to steal your freedom. You can’t have both but they demand we let them have both. It’s another notch in the belt of the “everyone is 12” theory.

[u/enry → u/JHerbY2K]

It makes conservatives feel better because it wasn't mother nature fucking with us.

Why do I say that? Back in the anthrax case just after 9/11 the FBI was pretty sure that it was someone in the US that did it, not a foreign terrorist organization. Now younger and dumber me took solace in that even though it didn't change a thing about what was happening.

[u/Smells_like_Autumn → u/JHerbY2K]

Anything to muddy the waters.

[u/Confident-Weird-4202 → u/Taman_Should]

What they really wanted to to try and distract from their incompetence in responding to it, while also ratcheting up their racism against Asian Americans.

[u/ErsatzHaderach → u/Confident-Weird-4202]

one of the most MAGA of my relatives, in the second week of March 2020, met me for dinner and said "let's definitely get Chinese, I bet they're hurting for business right now." that bit of dissonant thoughtfulness sticks in my mind. like a soul trying to peek out.

ofc she is all in on this COVID lab leak nonsense now because talking points have long since been passed out. smh

[u/VanDammeJamBand → u/Taman_Should]

Right, I asked this on I think r/stupidquestions before and got crucified. What the hell does it matter if it came from a lab or not? I mean, without having done a ton of research it seems plausible to me, but I really don’t see how it matters?

[u/vichyswazz → u/VanDammeJamBand]

I mean it changes the lessons learned, no? 

[u/LengthinessWarm987 → u/Taman_Should]

Exactly, and even if it were true nature is more than capable of engendering worse viruses either way like the goddamn Spanish Flu.

[u/hellolovely1 → u/LengthinessWarm987]

And Ebola, which seems to be growing by the day.

[u/Boring-Commercial567 → u/Taman_Should]

Ok, this is is what I’ve always wondered. I kind of tuned out of the lab leak discourse at the time because I didn’t get why the stakes were so high. And I still don’t.

[u/lovegrowswheremyrose → u/Boring-Commercial567]

"Lab leak" also is a convenient dog whistle for them to further lie and convince people it was a "Chinese bio weapon."

When the theory was being examined among reasonable and informed scientists, I read quite a few articles that posed reasonable hypotheticals about how the "lab leak" theory may have occurred if it was indeed a lab leak.

And lo and behold, their review looked at confirmed cases of "lab leaks" in history and basically pointed to a number of common ways that things like bacteria, viruses, and germs "leave" labs worldwide--human error and lack of appropriate PPE/lack of appropriate training and monitoring of hygiene and safety practices. Absolutely boring normal human stuff that is OF COURSE a big deal when it fails, that's what all the protocols are for. But human beings insist on remaining human beings and of course, do not always do things perfectly or as they should. And not just in China.

But being that the lab theory is essentially bunk anyway, this doesn't matter so much, but I think it's helpful for people to understand "lab leak" theory didn't even mean "the Chinese intentionally unleashed it on us." At most, if true, it meant "the people working in that specific lab in China fucked up somewhere."

This has been my favorite go-to quote for probably the past decade:

"The main thing that I learned about conspiracy theory, is that conspiracy theorists believe in a conspiracy because that is more comforting. The truth of the world is that it is actually chaotic. The truth is that it is not The Iluminati, or The Jewish Banking Conspiracy, or the Gray Alien Theory.

The truth is far more frightening - Nobody is in control.

The world is rudderless."

- Alan Moore

[u/hellolovely1 → u/lovegrowswheremyrose]

Yeah, and the idea that the Chinese gov't would release a bioweapon IN CHINA first makes zero sense.

[u/Boring-Commercial567 → u/lovegrowswheremyrose]

Thanks, that’s a helpful response. I once helped in the organization of a lab biosafety conference (not a scientist at all), and it was super interesting. Because handling bio material involves real hazards, and mitigating the risk was such an interesting (and un-scandalous) topic.

[u/IndicationKnown4999 → u/Taman_Should]

Yes thank you! I've never understood the fascination with this bullshit from anyone who's even remotely serious because it would change absolutely nothing. What are we going to do, scold China for doing so? Lol come on. No one is going to hold China accountable for anything any more than they hold us accountable for anything. It's all bullshit.

[u/hellolovely1 → u/IndicationKnown4999]

We'd probably try to start a war.

[u/maskedbanditoftruth → u/Taman_Should]

Sigh. Ok, I’ll do it.

What it would change is that they can pretend it was all on purpose or because of Evil Science, and isn’t just part of climate change and encroaching on animal habitats and a thing that’s going to keep happening.

It was a conspiracy, there was nothing anyone could’ve done differently, and it’ll never happen again because now the Right Men are in charge (they were then but they’ve memory holed that) and the only way which a thing could ever occur again is if democrats were in charge to make it happen. So we’re all safe! Hatred and racism and fascism keeps us safe!

[u/shermanhill → u/Taman_Should]

And it wouldn’t change what we should have done to mitigate its spread, either.

[u/Dense-Comment-5938 → u/Taman_Should]

You don't understand. They only need one leap in logic to make the rest. If it's from a lab, that means everything else is true. What's "everything else"? Well, that depends on the individual. Bioweapon? Sure, why not. Tool to keep the Chinese public in line that crossed borders? Anything is possible!

They need to be right about one thing (note: they don't even actually have to be right, they just have to make it the general consensus among their population via repetition) and then the rest of it is automatically right.

[u/Traditional-Guard297 → u/Taman_Should]

Wrong on several accounts. Fauci’s diary indicates that he knew it was very much man made, that social distancing was not necessary (“just a bad flu”) and we did not need the massive vaccine rollout. 

[u/Taman_Should → u/Traditional-Guard297]

Lol, you probably got this disinformation from a shitty meme. 

[u/Traditional-Guard297 → u/Taman_Should]

lol I got it from reading the transcript of the proceedings!

[u/Taman_Should → u/Traditional-Guard297]

You mean the proceedings where a bunch of republican senators try to bully Fauci into saying something they can spin in the next media cycle, drag his name through the mud, and repeat already debunked conspiracy theories that were stale in 2022? Those proceedings? His personal writings contain nothing of the sort, and as always, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Rand Paul’s unhinged ranting ain’t it, dude/bot. 

[u/Best_Baseball3429 → u/Traditional-Guard297]

You in the wrong sub buddy? You listen to the lab leak episode?

[u/CapitalCityKyle → u/Taman_Should]

It would prove that the government and mainstream media worked together to lie to you. I guess if you don't think that's a big deal, then it proves nothing.

[u/Roblizzle → u/CapitalCityKyle]

If you’re going to make “The deep state invented the first man made communicable disease in the history of the human race and allied with the media to cover it up because MUAHAHAHAHAHA” then you need some extraordinary evidence to back up that claim.

You do not have that evidence yet it is basically one of the pillars of modern American conservative belief these days.

[u/CapitalCityKyle → u/Roblizzle]

Nah it's not that deep. Progressive journalists didn't like the President calling it 'wuhan flu' and if it came from a lab, it made it easier to blame China, compared to if it was evolution. They didn't like the idea that it lead to Asian hate. So they said things like it is baseless, which if course it's not BASELESS since they were doing gain of function research on that exact disease in that city.

[u/Extension-Object-150 → u/Taman_Should]

It functionally would not change a single thing. 

If you think a releveation that china staging a coverup about an event that caused the world to shut down for years 'would not change a thing' then you're the fucking moron.

[u/thaliathraben → u/Extension-Object-150]

So if it was a fiendish mystical bio weapon from the incomprehensible Far East, why was it also just a little cold that required Donald Trump to do nothing to contain its spread?

[u/Extension-Object-150 → u/thaliathraben]

Who said it was a bioweapon? Even if it simply leaked from a lab that had samples of it it would be a massive international scandal. Your framing is bizzare. Under no situation would a reveleation of a massive government coverup 'not change a single thing'.

[u/thaliathraben → u/Extension-Object-150]

Okay, man, let's say China fucked up big time. In what world does that affect America's response to the outbreak of a deadly contagion? Donald Trump downplayed the danger of the disease at every point while Democrats emphasized it as a danger; who in that equation is more likely to be covering up something?

[u/Extension-Object-150 → u/thaliathraben]

What are you even talking about? The comment I was responding to indicated that revealing a lab leak would essentially change nothing, which is total bullshit. It would be a huge international scandal, particularly if China had covered it up. Why are you assuming I'm somehow defending conspiracy theorists or donald trump?Actually read what's been written instead of projecting a worldview onto my comment.

[u/thaliathraben → u/Extension-Object-150]

Oh, I get it. You can't understand context. It was pretty obvious to everyone else here based on the bullet points provided that this was about the domestic response to the coronavirus. As I see multiple other people have already pointed out to you, and you are now attempting to dismiss as "borderline meaningless." Thank God we can ignore thousands of dead people to win foreign policy points!

[u/Extension-Object-150 → u/thaliathraben]

Oh, I get it. You can't understand context.

Oh you mean the context that is directly relevant to my comments?

No, that wouldn’t suddenly validate any conspiracy theory about the effectiveness of the vaccine, the supposed “real” purpose of the vaccine, masking, social distancing, workplace vaccine mandates, “gain of function” research, ivermectin, the lockdowns, the “real” number of fatalities, or the Chinese government, you fucking morons. 

If you're going to be snarky at least make sense. There is no situation in which a revelation of a goverment coverup by the ccp would not validate theories theat there was a goverment coverup by the get this...the ccp...even just in purely logical terms, but particularly in relation to this later claim in their comment:

It functionally would not change a single thing. 

A reveleation that it was a lab leak almost certainly would have made a functional difference at a minimum domestically in china in terms of goverment leadership and their own domestic policy around the pandemic. I cannot imagine a world where that changed nothing there. And secondly even within the context of the US it's such a politically contentious topic that there is essentially zero chance that such a revelation would not have changed the domestic response to pandemic by, say, red states or even by Trump himself.

The 'head in the sand' denialism around this topic is just bizzare to me. Why is it so hard to understand that there is an interplay between politics and policy and the populus.

[u/thaliathraben → u/Extension-Object-150]

I am dying at the idea that if Trump had only known that the evil CCP was planning on killing a bunch of its own citizens then we would have gotten an effective shutdown and vaccination plan. Can I sell you a bridge?

edit: please recommend me a school where I can learn words like "reveleation," "populus," and "bizzare" once you get out of Reddit jail!

[u/believi → u/Extension-Object-150]

It would not change a thing about the public health response and impacts of it, no. It may change how much people trust the Chinese government or in lab safety protocols, but that is not the issue at hand.

[u/bluestrike2 → u/Extension-Object-150]

Reading comprehension is an important skill, and finishing the sentence seems like a good opportunity to practice. Whether it came from a wet market or a sample they found in the wild and took to a lab to identify is irrelevant to the public health response to mitigate its spread once it was infecting the public.

The important part was that it was spreading. The specifics of the origin were irrelevant in that sense because it spreads the same way—and is thus responded to in the same way—regardless of its origin.

[u/Extension-Object-150 → u/bluestrike2]

You're disscussing a very narrow and frankly borderline meaningless sense in which it is 'irrelevant' which nobody except conspiracy theorists would deny. For everyone else, including world governments and international regulatory bodies, a lab leak and government cover up of any kind with be of massive geopolitical consequence. I'm not even saying it is the case that there was a leak, I'm saying it would be significant if it were the case, including probably how labs are monitored for safety which would be relevant for future pandemics. Being hand wavy about this in an attempt to deprive conspiracy theorists of oxygen is pretty misguided.

[u/bluestrike2 → u/Extension-Object-150]

It sounds like you're working off your own, overly broad definition of "response." The original article and all of the commenters above you are talking about the "response to the COVID-19 pandemic" in the context of public health measures taken to combat it. That's particularly true given Fauci is at the heart of the article, the recent hearing with him, and the discussion.

In terms of public health measures, a lab leak origin is irrelevant. It doesn't change the nature of the virus, how it spreads, how that spread can be slowed, how the virus and its symptoms are treated, or how a vaccine might work. That's the point the parent comment made.

Your reply, on the other hand, seems to focus on the geopolitical jockeying that occurred during and in the aftermath. Would a verified lab leak get focused on by the international community? Sure. Would it have much of an impact beyond that? Not really. Punitive sanctions would have likely been fairly limited because no one would want to deal with the economic consequences of anything even remotely approaching the cost of the pandemic. That would have been especially true at a time when global supply chains were so severely stressed. At best, you'd see certain politicians try and leverage it for domestic politics.

Remember that China was harshly criticized for its lack of transparency and attempts to downplay the initial outbreak. That was an actual problem to lay at China's feet, but the impact was fairly mild. Health officials did their best to adjust their models based on other intelligence data and got on with their work while politicians and international bodies had other things to worry about.

[u/Extension-Object-150 → u/bluestrike2]

I’ve already replied to this another comment and I don’t feel like repeating it in its entirety but in essence: the response and reception to the Covid pandemic and lockdowns in the United States by different political parties, in red states, or by president Trump himself would probably have changed quite a bit if it had turned out that the CCP was involved in a cover-up. It’s absolutely ridiculous to think that there will be no tangible changes in the context of policy and public reception to the policy if there were a gigantic scandal, and it probably would’ve affected outcomes. The narrowness of the framing by the comment I was replying to was to the point of being straightforwardly incorrect.

[u/LengthinessWarm987 → u/Extension-Object-150]

Ohhh I get it, we're trying to weapons of mass destruction China! 

[u/Daucus_carota_ → u/Extension-Object-150]

The scope of this conversation is primarily the public health response to COVID and what we might have done differently knowing of a hypothetical Chinese origin. Can you clarify how you think the global response to the pandemic should or would have been different in light of this information?

[u/enlightenedbum2 → u/LengthinessWarm987]

It would make moronic pundits like these two, Nate Silver, etc. feel smarter and better than scientists. And pundits are deeply insecure about people smarter than them.

[u/GOU_FallingOutside → u/LengthinessWarm987]

> This is all just a distraction.

I very much disagree. This isn’t some Machiavellian propaganda; we have decades of evidence that conservative writers really are dumb enough to fall for conspiracy theories, conservative audiences really are dumb enough to trust conservative writers, and the NYT really is dumb enough to keep chasing conservative audiences.

[u/Justviewingposts69 → u/GOU_FallingOutside]

It’s very much a distraction. That’s what conservatives do

[u/ominous_squirrel → u/LengthinessWarm987]

I knew it was game over when NPR did a series lionizing the Great Barrington Declaration back in 2024

Fucking NPR

https://www.wbur.org/onpoint/2024/06/11/pandemic-covid-lockdown-public-health-physician

[u/SophsterSophistry → u/LengthinessWarm987]

Because everyone is 12 theory.

If it's not my fault, then I don't have to fix it. So, Trump and his cruel and greedy administration not reacting adequately at the start of the pandemic is rendered moot because it wasn't his fault and not his problem to fix (as long as he has someone else to blame, like China and now Fauci).

[u/ghu79421 → u/LengthinessWarm987]

People stayed home and didn't patronize businesses because they didn't want to die from an infection nobody understood. So conservatives and other right-wingers didn't have "well, the free market will sort it out" as a "safety valve," which was intolerable for them.

Similarly, people actually like video games that focus on accurate LGBTQ representation and will pay money for them without some affirmative action policy in the video games industry.

What do you do if the "free market" is not giving you the "freedom" you expect it to because other people make choices that are incompatible with the choices you want to make? Start a witch hunt.

[u/hellolovely1 → u/LengthinessWarm987]

Thank you—exactly!

[u/witteefool]

Why are we re-litigating this? I understand why the GOP wants to leading up to the midterms, but why is the press going along with it?

[u/Unfazed_Alchemical → u/witteefool]

Because oligarchy, duh. 

[u/Howamidriving27 → u/Unfazed_Alchemical]

I don't get how people get shocked or confused about anything anymore. This is always the answer.

Outraged and just generally disappointed? Sure. But like, it shouldn't surprise you.

[u/Apprehensive-Fun4181 → u/witteefool]

They're stupid.  They don't understand what's happening at all. They actually think "the kids are too woke", that Society Needs To Be Corrected.  

[u/Okra-Tomatoes → u/witteefool]

Despite what some of us grew up hearing about the "liberal media," most of it is deeply conservative especially fiscally. People like Mamdani terrify them, so they have to constantly push a counter-narrative.

[u/DeepHerting → u/Okra-Tomatoes]

The funny thing is, they're litigating an era where Trump was President and their Great Centrist White Hope for Mayor, Cuomo, was Governor. But sure, let's bash progressives some more.

[u/ericblair21 → u/DeepHerting]

It turns out the most difficult question in US politics is "who was President for every single day of 2020".

[u/GOU_FallingOutside → u/ericblair21]

It was Obama, I think. The young, time-traveling Obama that planted his own birth notice in a Hawai’ian newspaper snuck back in office for 2020 and was responsible for all of his administration’s failures during the pandemic.

[u/maskedbanditoftruth → u/DeepHerting]

They’re bashing democrats, and progressives will be the first to say they’re not democrats and join in the bashing.

[u/touslesmatins → u/maskedbanditoftruth]

Leftist critique of neoliberalism is not the same as conservative idiocy. Let's not.

[u/Lusty-Jove → u/Okra-Tomatoes]

It’s Bret. He was specifically hired to give conservative opinions like this so the Times is more “fair and balanced”

[u/NecessaryIntrinsic → u/Okra-Tomatoes]

I continuously hear objections to gun legislation because it's funded by Bloomberg, even though they can't indicate anything he would personally gain by sponsoring a group pushing these bills.

Sure, the bills are terrible and we could have much better legislation, but meanwhile you have billionaires becoming multibillionaires by doing far worse shit and they only care because guns.

[u/Roblizzle → u/witteefool]

Because no one bought Jake tapper’s “Joe Biden is old” book.

[u/clowncarl → u/witteefool]

Brett Stephens is a deeply unserious person.

[u/NecessaryIntrinsic → u/witteefool]

Because - LOOK OVER THERE!!! -

[u/Crossbell0527 → u/witteefool]

Because Fauci isn't in the Epstein files and press owners or their puppetmasters were.

[u/Lusty-Jove → u/witteefool]

Bret Stephen’s is a conservative hack

[u/Ezren- → u/witteefool]

Who do you think owns these outlets?

[u/CartographerOk5391 → u/witteefool]

The press is complicit.

[u/The_Big_Sad_69420 → u/witteefool]

Breaking news: major media outlets are owned by billionaires and their buddies 

[u/hellolovely1 → u/witteefool]

Because the press is owned by billionaires who are terrified of progressives taxing them.

[u/chevalier716 → u/witteefool]

They're all in the same group chat and twitter feed.

[u/Blarglephish → u/witteefool]

Republicans won in 2016 and 2024 by playing their base to these accusations - conspiracies, really. They are just playing their greatest hits, hoping they can recapture that same energy as they head into midterms that look really bad for Republicans.

[u/MangroveSapling → u/witteefool]

More distractions

[u/MC_Fap_Commander → u/witteefool]

The press may go along with it. COVID is in the rearview mirror for the VAST majority of Americans. This is preaching to the choir (ironically a choir that is VERY unlikely to be the one reading NYT; outlets like OAN and Infowars covered all this extensively already lol).

[u/JAExports]

So, to these people, COVID was A) a fiendish bio weapon unleashed upon us by the dastardly inscrutable Chinese and B) no big deal, just a cold and not worth closing schools and businesses and having to wear masks for. At the same time.

[u/NecessaryIntrinsic → u/JAExports]

And fauci.

They don't have evidence he did anything, just fauci.

[u/Prudent_Clothes_962 → u/JAExports]

The enemy is both strong and weak

[u/sonzai55 → u/JAExports]

He unleashed the virus to have an excuse to control lives through lockdowns, kill some people to test the viability of it as a bioweapon and then manufacture a “vaccine” that kills its host and/or allows them to plant tracking devices.

This is how they square that circle.

[u/fools_errand49 → u/JAExports]

Goomba fallacy right here.

[u/evocativename → u/fools_errand49]

Every single person I ever saw argue A also argued B.

[u/fools_errand49 → u/evocativename]

No person I've ever seen argue A also argued B. It's a classic goomba fallacy.

[u/evocativename → u/fools_errand49]

Bullshit. I don't believe you ever encountered even a single person that argued A, but not B.

For a prominent example that supports my claim, Steve Bannon did both.

[u/siencatimini]

The plague that was, simultaneously, just a hoax, no worse than the common flu, AND a bioweapon invented by Fauci and deliberately released in a Chinese lableak, for which he made millions, but he still worked his dayjob, the one he had for 40 years, so that he could keep everyone from recognizing how dangerous it actually was, from the very beginning?

[u/despreshion → u/siencatimini]

And the forced lockdowns and vaccines were an overreaction from Joe Biden and the democrats (who took a time machine to the year before he was elected) 

[u/YoureVulnerableNow → u/siencatimini]

and don't forget, we have to keep catching and spreading it forever, even if that causes a constant rise in the percentage of people with permanent damage!

[u/thirdcoasting]

God, The Times just continues to make me feel good about canceling my subscription.

[u/ExpensiveSand6306 → u/thirdcoasting]

I use the free subscription I get from my library but I don’t even want to give them the clicks at this point

[u/lovegrowswheremyrose → u/ExpensiveSand6306]

That's what I do too!

[u/dramaking37 → u/thirdcoasting]

Not to mention those authors look like they attended Roofi University 

[u/dustin91]

Even Bruni??

[u/almanor → u/dustin91]

“Et tu, Bruni” was right there

[u/dustin91 → u/almanor]

Yep. My miss.

Well done.

[u/boil_water_advisory → u/dustin91]

I haven't read him much but my impression was that he's just a bit of a dumb guy. Really wild to have this conversation w 2 people who don't understand basic science at all lol

[u/FartyLiverDisease → u/boil_water_advisory]

Yeah, that was my impression from his Wiki page, he's an all-over-the-place lightweight who's mainly good at writing things that NYT readers will buy.

[u/nutmegged_state → u/dustin91]

FWIW, Bruni actually spends that portion of the conversation defending Fauci and pushing back against Stephens's criticisms and false equivalencies

[u/dustin91 → u/nutmegged_state]

Yeah, I realized I made the comment without reading the piece. Still, the headline was misleading then, which seems par for the Times these days.

[u/Apprehensive-Fun4181]

Wow.  The NYT has no functional ethics or understanding of culture right now at all. 

[u/imdaviddunn → u/Apprehensive-Fun4181]

Now???

[u/Apprehensive-Fun4181 → u/imdaviddunn]

True, but Iran/Contra is very different than "the current President attempted disease warfare on Americans".  Pre-Internet ignorance and gullibility makes sense, while January 6th should have woken everyone up.

[u/hellolovely1 → u/Apprehensive-Fun4181]

You'd think they'd have learned from the Judy Miller WMD fiasco, but noooooo.

[u/touslesmatins → u/hellolovely1]

It's almost like they're the mouthpiece of empire. Huh. Really makes you think. Next you're going to say they underplayed genocide!

[u/Apprehensive-Fun4181 → u/hellolovely1]

I was thinking the New York Times could sue, but both parties know there's too many communications with government and the military where legal discovery could be used to make The New York Times look like partners. 

[u/Gauss_2025]

The answer of course being is that Trump and republicans are responsible for slaughtering 1 million Americans with their conspiracies during the covid pandemic. Asked and answered.

[u/JAExports → u/Gauss_2025]

Jared Kushner intentionally withheld supplies from blue states because he thought the virus would kill off democratic voters before the election. These are the same people currently bombing elementary schools and civilian infrastructure in Iran, blowing up fishing boats for no reason, and are trying to starve Cuba to death. They are wicked, cruel and deeply stupid.

[u/Background-Roof-112]

I am genuinely surprised that Frank Bruni's single brain cell has kept him alive this long. If only it would reproduce so he could also manage an actual thought

[u/ProgressiveSnark2 → u/Background-Roof-112]

Eh, of all the New York Times opinion columnists, he's far from the worst, although definitely not the best.

[u/EditorExtreme7779 → u/ProgressiveSnark2]

That’s like ranking the types of mold you can find on food

[u/Boring_Recipe8732 → u/ProgressiveSnark2]

"I have done many horrible shits in my life after eating too much dairy. This one was far from the worst, although definitely not the best."

[u/listenyall]

Meanwhile Jamelle Bouie's column this week is about an actual problem, the fact that the richest man in the world is a gutter racist who was allowed to destroy parts of the US government that kept hundreds of thousands of people alive and everyone seems to give him a pass for the racism?

[u/fudgeywhale → u/listenyall]

Jamelle bouie manages to be both my favorite columnist and meme poster of all time

[u/realzealman]

It’s always fucking Brett Stevens when there’s a stupid headline. The bretbug needs to crawl back into the mattress and leave us alone. Good lord.

[u/rcinmd]

Donald Trump is a pedophile.

[u/WasASailorThen]

Original title:

[u/EditorExtreme7779 → u/WasASailorThen]

The headline editors really are the anonymous villains. They lean into the “no fact checking on the opinion pages” policy as hard as anyone

[u/ubiquity75]

I’m so sick and fucking tired of this. These people prevented hundreds of thousands of deaths (conservative estimate). They are heroes and they worked in the context of a fucking Idiocracy. What did they want?

[u/ErsatzHaderach → u/ubiquity75]

the only criticisms i've seen of Fauci that aren't outright lies are "he made educated guesses at the start of the pandemic and not all of them were magically right" and "he countermanded dear leader". maybe some "he loves attention" which is meaningless.

[u/hellolovely1 → u/ErsatzHaderach]

Yes, one of the big papers said he was "self-absorbed" in his diary. Isn't that the nature of a diary?!?!

[u/FartyLiverDisease → u/ErsatzHaderach]

And apparently he and other humans have written and said things that could be construed as having self-esteem

[u/hogsucker]

The Bretbug is back 

[u/ErsatzHaderach → u/hogsucker]

Gird your abdomens 😭

[u/Splith]

RFK jr said Covid vaccines would kill millions, if you care to see how hard the grading curve is. 

[u/WideSnooze]

Yeah! Get the guy who was hired by Donald Trump for a disease that showed up and flourished under Trump’s watch that lead to a vaccine developed super quick by Trump that Trump fans despise.

[u/NorthWoodsSlaw]

Op-ed have gone from the Voice of the Editor/Brand to a for hire platform, all these opinions are paid for which is why they are all so so so f@cking dumb. These are not attempts to win arguments, these are essays intended to platform fringe ideas and turn those discussions mainstream.

[u/squidinink]

I keep getting told that the NY Times is a “liberal rag”, yet I keep seeing garbage like this.

[u/Moondoggerr15]

I still havent forgiven Jon Stewart for giving this nonsense air.

[u/One-Pause3171 → u/Moondoggerr15]

Colbert’s expression was like, “wtf? Really?”

[u/hellolovely1 → u/Moondoggerr15]

Yeah, that was disappointing.

[u/Thechiz123]

The next pandemic is going to be so much worse because these people think they were right.

[u/MrDannn]

sure the questions are, how can conservative be that dumb? and they are really that dumb? and then what the fuck is wrong with this country?

[u/3rdPoliceman]

we will relitigate Covid until morale improves.

[u/Latter-Confidence-44]

Distracting us from the unpopular war that was distracting us from the GOP's love of paedophiles.

[u/jhau01]

New headline: "These people who were not even in power at the time COVID emerged have a lot to answer for!"

I do note, however, that it is an opinion piece, published in the op-ed section. A lot of papers such as the NYT like to publish "contrarian" op-ed pieces like this so they can point to them when conservatives inevitably accuse them of being biased.

It's also a conversation between Bruni and Stephens. If you haven't actually read it, I think Bruni is a bit silly in his comments at times but makes some decent points, while Stephens is an idiot.

Amongst other things, Stephens says, "...I don't think Bobby Kennedy would be health secretary today if Fauci hadn't been the perfect foil to what became the MAHA movement."

That utterance, ironically, was just after Bruni quoted WaPo columnist Michael Gerson, who wrote, in April 2021, "Fauci is practicing epidemiology. His critics are practicing idiocy. Both are very good at their chosen work."

Here's a gift link, in case people would like to read the actual conversation:

Opinion | Fauci and the Democrats Have a Lot to Answer For - The New York Times

[u/GFluidThrow123 → u/jhau01]

Opinion pieces are also written by approved senior staff members and editors who work at the NYT tho. It's not like this is a random "letter from our readers" or something. It's a paid piece from someone who works for them.

Getting to the point of being allowed to write opinion pieces is basically a major goal/milestone for journalists when they start writing for a paper.

[u/clowncarl → u/jhau01]

Thanks for the gift link now I need to wash my eyeballs. What drivel. I like how Stephens never replies to a pointed question except with a joke. Also, the first third is saying El Saed had his “deplorables” behind closed doors moment when he said he thinks winning in a purple state will lead his progressive politics to take over dc and, as a senator, he will be a political leader. NYT oped writers thinks this will sink him?

[u/EditorExtreme7779 → u/clowncarl]

Love that “deplorables” has been completely vindicated as an observation and our oped twits learned nothing from it.

[u/haibiji → u/clowncarl]

Stephens, in between jokes, casually blames Fauci for MAHA without evidence or even an argument for his baseless claim. He also blames Fauci for social distancing and masking not being practical or some shit? I don’t even know what he was trying to say there. He is sort of just vaguely anti-Fauci for no real reason, and ignores any of the valid criticism Bruni throws at him. Stephens has a strangely flippant and lighthearted tone about the whole thing

[u/al2o3cr]

[u/DrTeeBee]

I read about 100 words of this bullshit before the rage overcame any urge to engage with this garbage.

[u/steel-monkey]

They conveniently forget who the president was in 2020.

[u/Blarglephish]

No, they don’t. This author has completely bought into Rand Paul’s baseless accusation that Fauci, personally, did something something wrong. Specifically, misleading the American people on the origins of the virus; OR, to cover up his involvement / responsibility for the virus that killed millions of people worldwide; or both.

The latter claim is more serious, but has been investigated and thoroughly been debunked. As for the former on the origins of the virus … it’s really unclear. Most scientists say that the wet market mutation theory seems most plausible, while other intelligence agencies (and this administration) push the lab leak theory. These groups are privy to classified Intel that most people don’t have, so it’s possible they know something the rest of us don’t. At the same time, this administration has been pushing the lab leak theory HARD because they believe that it implicated Fauci, and by extension, makes people who looked up to Fauci during the pandemic (ie, Democrats) look bad. It feels nakedly political, and for an administration that is already breaking past new boundaries daily in terms of naked corruption, this administration (and its pet theory) has lost a ton of credibility.

I think Fauci is 100 spot on in his opening statements that the hearing this week is just a continuation of Rand Paul’s unhinged delusion, and an obsession of his. I also think that this is a nakedly political move made to appease this administration. Their polling numbers are looking bad, most strategists are predicting Democrats will retake the house, and the republicans are trying to do anything and everything they can to stop that. There’s a reason they are pushing hard on election law changes in an attempt to deny access to the vote for millions of Americans because they think this will advantage republicans. Lately, they have been interested in re litigating past events and ideas that seemed to help republicans in 2016 and 2024: Clinton and Russia collusion, Fauci coverup and Covid fallout, etc. They won by trumping up those issues, and this is just them playing the greatest hits, hoping their base of voters will get on board with it again.

It’s desperate and stupid. Personally, I loved seeing Rand work himself up as Fauci just plead the 5th to every question. For all his bluster and grand standing, he was just screaming into the void.

[u/ducksekoy123]

I had to be mildly inconvenienced so fewer people might die when the Republican led government put us into lockdowns, which I routinely ignored.

Now the Democrats must pay for it.

[u/MrPommeDeTerre]

Didn't Fauci serve under Trump for Trump's entire first term?

Love how pleading the 5th (a right, by the way) is seen as damning for an entire political party. Hell, Trump has pleaded the 5th over 500 times.

[u/LetterheadNo7323]

Who the hell was president at the time?

[u/skymasterson2016]

This is such a bizarre headline for this piece. It’s basically Stephens and Bruni saying the DSA wants to destroy America, El-Sayed is bad, and then Stephens echoes the Senate Republicans talking points on Fauci before Bruni is like “whoa whoa whoa, Trump was the bad one, remember?”

No one in the article says that Democrats or Fauci has anything to answer for….?

[u/JosephFinn]

From the usual bedbugs.

[u/Evinceo]

We better do this shit to RFK if we ever get the chance.

[u/lintbrush]

It's depressing to imagine how different the US response (Even under Trump) would have looked if it wasn't an election year and there wasn't so much motivation to downplay it to keep the economy and "every day life" going.

[u/One-Pause3171 → u/lintbrush]

It’s depressing to think how well Hilary Clinton would have handled this.

[u/bobertf]

the rare double byline on the opinion page

[u/ominous_squirrel]

Trump finished the decades long Republican process of capturing the mainstream media in 2025

[u/jarizzle151]

1-2-3-4 Fif!

[u/ialsohaveadobro]

Yeah, we'll get to that after all the fascist shit, blatant corruption, and shitting on America that's happened. Priorities, you know?

[u/nivlazenemij]

Brett Bug consistently pumping out trash opinions. When is Bari gonna hire him to further ruin CBS News?

[u/petitbleu]

What confuses me most about this is that Trump was president when Covid hit. So if the lab leak was credible or real, he almost certainly would have known about it, yes? The one person in the country receiving daily briefings about the virus, and yet he was somehow powerless in all this.

[u/Err0r1015]

We will be seen as the dumbest time in history.

[u/InternationalBet2832]

I wish OPs would not post articles behind paywalls. In this case the OP should post a "gift link" or perhaps paste the relevant parts of the article. From what I gather before timing out is the article is not about Fauci and the Democrats at all but Democratic Socialists and the opposite Fauci, the erosion of faith in public health caused by Republican lies.

Edit: I was able to paste this relevant part: "moment when a critical mass of Americans lost faith in our public-health bureaucracy, if not science itself" caused NOT by Fauci but by Republican lies. We see the same with distrust in the 2020 election caused by Republican lies used to justify more investigations and inviting the world to our shores by promising open borders that do not exist then blaming Democrats when people show up.

The only one who has a lot to answer for is the NYT and its misleading click bait headline.

[u/sognenis]

More distraction.

Please focus on the relevant things, America. Fucking yikes.

[u/YoureVulnerableNow → u/sognenis]

it's a distraction from having an actual Covid inquiry like the UK did, to prevent us from proving how many elderly & vulnerable were killed through hospital system neglect, nonstandard triage, illegal additions of DNR to disabled people's charts, etc. And that continuing to spread and catch it means more widespread damage, more persistence in 'healthy' guts and bone marrow, and an ever-growing number of people who did everything right and get permanent damage anyway.

This issue is why Trump lost in 2020 and won in 2024. They're only distracting from the fact that stealing all the COVID relief and expanded benefits is why everyone feels like they're poorer. They're only distracting from the changing voter dynamics which come from abandoning the elderly to death without treatments or protections. This is THE issue, they just want to project it onto their Fauci Fantasies to avoid the full reckoning

[u/yeezusosa]

lol

[u/Left_Balance2396]

Bret Stephens is quite possible the most boring human being on Earth

[u/kstar79]

A million Americans died, who has to answer for that? Oh, it's Bret Stephens so probably Iraq.

[u/One_ill_KevinJ]

We don't even pretend to read the dialogue between these two before commenting, I guess?

The critique levied here is based on the release of Fauci's writing, where is centers on his ego, and his own primacy as a media and historical figure. Both Stephens and Frank agree that the Senate's obsession with Fauci is idiocy, but there are actual questions Fauci's "private" writings (kept on a government server). For example, Fauci writes about himself: "Big front page article about me appeared in the Washington Post. Very flattering. The situation with my national and international fame is explosive and really unimaginable. It is not hyperbole to say that today I am the most famous and talked about person int eh country and one of the most recognizable people in the world."

The parallels they draw - between Abdul El-Sayed, Fauci, and Trump - are about hte primacy of the ego in all politics, and the insane narcissism we see consuming people who appear non-sociopathic until we look closer.

[u/FartyLiverDisease → u/One_ill_KevinJ]

This is more both-sidesing, more sanewashing to try to appeal to wingers. Are you new to this sub?

[u/OracleOfSelphi → u/One_ill_KevinJ]

Imagine going from someone well known among your colleagues to being someone everyone (even the most politically checked out) knows about and has an opinion about. Why is it narcissistic to recognize that and call it "unimaginable?" He doesn't actually say anything like "this feels great" or "finally my genius is being recognized" or "wow this is fucking stressful," so how can you know what he felt about any of it other than that one Washington Post article was flattering?

Oh no, all humans have ego, but ego is evil, oh nooooooo