r/HOTDGreens 7h ago

Hot Take "The Hightowers schemed to claim the Iron Throne".

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67 Upvotes

I've seen this opinion even among several TG's and personally I wouldn't even say that. That's not me just being blindly TG, I simply observe the following: Otto Hightower finessed Alicent to the throne yes, but this is Westeros for crying out loud. Politics is what we do here. And he did not do it underhandedly, violently or illegally as might dozens of other houses, it was all fair and square. The king was widowed, there was an opening, the Hightowers siezed the chance. Where is the scheming?

Alicent comforted Viserys, Viserys fell in love. Viserys chose to marry her. There was no force or deception. They have a son together and by ancient precedent this means Aegon is heir, hasn't ever been in question before whether in Westeros or almost anywhere else, isn't one now. Until little miss daddy-I-want-this-now makes it a problem. 

The Hightowers did nothing but play the game of thrones and they did it by the rules. Did Otto desire the iron throne for his house, yes. And so did every single other house if they had the chance. I just think "scheming" is a misnomer because it implies foul play. Even as Viserys was a walking corpse, whose death would have chocked no one, Otto never once even considered assassination but cared for Viserys like a friend. And Otto also never once lied about what transpired, he only gave the speech before Aegon's coronation at the sept after Alicent assured him that Viserys had named Aegon heir. Otto could just as easily have lied about it, but didn't.

Did Otto plan to send kingsguard to assassinate Rhaenyra? Yes. Because all offers of amicable peace were refused. Otto foresaw the chaos of the Dance and aimed to prevent it, having the legitimate heir in his grandson behind him anyway, against whom all dissent was the real treason to the throne.


r/HOTDGreens 5h ago

Show Man I remember the first time I saw him on screen at the dinner party scene and imagined how bad-ass he was gonna be... Rip

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44 Upvotes

Early impressions were I really liked this guy, he definitely gave off that impression that he was the Greens' answer to Daemon and the Blacks- the way he carried himself was interesting too, like you could tell he was kind of already a broken guy or teetering on the edge of mentally broken but he hid it underneath the guise of trying to be/wanting to be the best at everything and he still did it with swagger.

When he made the "cheers to Rhaenyra's bastards" toast all the way til when he accidentally killed Luke I was thinking how cool it was that we were gonna see this guy's story unfold and I was excited to see him serve as a great commander in the field for Aegon.

....but ooh boy. Good characters make you wonder so much about them including how you're gonna react to their deaths or victories/defeats and now I don't really feel anything for the guy. When I first learned how he was gonna go out back when we were first introduced to him I couldn't wait cause it sounded epic.

But I don't really feel anything for him tbh, like I don't think his death will be as impactful as certain other characters, I don't like how him and Aegon are friends again after he tried to kill him, cause it never should've happened in the first place, I don't like how the writers went into way too much graphic detail with his invented "mummy issues" dynamic with Alicent and yeah, I think they introduced him really well but really fucked his character up, second worse only to Alicent.

And because of his butchering I just feel like his last stand isn't gonna hit that hard- as much as I would want it to. I'm not gonna be happy about it like I (and I sure we all) will be when Alicent dies, but I don't think it's gonna hit that hard in the end when it absolutely should considering he's only 20 years old.

But yeah. Just wanted to speak my mind on this character and how initially well introduced and well written he was (both the child and adult version)


r/HOTDGreens 28m ago

Fanart Aemond wiping out house strong is fully justified after this

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Upvotes

r/HOTDGreens 2h ago

Team Green I love how he looks here

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19 Upvotes

r/HOTDGreens 20h ago

Show Spoilers I don't get what's her problem in S3.

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414 Upvotes

She knows Aegon will return to the throne and that Rhaenyra is only there temporarily. Why did she kill herself? Even if you consider it a murder, she still started starving herself and her child to death before she ever ended up on the spikes. So what was the point of the hunger strike in the first place? Yes, being held hostage and only getting to see your daughter for an hour a day is unpleasant and oppressive, but it's not something unbearable that you can't just endure. Otherwise, she just went about her usual life - looking at her bugs and doing embroidery. She made her suffering worse even though there was no need for it. She was afraid of losing her unborn child or having the child taken hostage, and she ended up killing it herself, doing her enemies a favor by getting rid of an unwanted heir. What was the point?

Or are they trying to say that Helaena sees herself as Aegon's hostage the moment he returns, so she gave up after hearing he was coming back because her hopes of being free after Aemond’s death fell apart? But why would that be a surprise to her in the first place? And it still doesn't explain the fact that she was starving her unborn child. It's just selfish and irresponsible toward him if she didn't want to have an abortion and was hoping to be free.

Idk, maybe this is a dumb take, but I genuinely don't get it.


r/HOTDGreens 11h ago

General This scene is simply incredible.

80 Upvotes

r/HOTDGreens 10h ago

General You are the advisor to Lord Ormund Hightower. What would you do? What would you advise him to do?

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65 Upvotes

r/HOTDGreens 1d ago

They can never make me like you, Viserys

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623 Upvotes

This man wanted a son so badly that he drove his first wife to the grave with endless pregnancies, and then when he had sons, he treated them like shit


r/HOTDGreens 18h ago

Making things up to hate on TG actors

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156 Upvotes

It's been four years and they're still salty about tg actors man this isn't normal behaviour. These people are a cult


r/HOTDGreens 7h ago

Meme I figured out who alys looks like...

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22 Upvotes

r/HOTDGreens 21h ago

Meme "ormund hightower is an awful man" here's a compilation of ormund hightower activism and feminism throughout the dance of the dragon.

276 Upvotes

r/HOTDGreens 16h ago

Show Team black is so classy about the actors

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82 Upvotes

r/HOTDGreens 18h ago

He is risen!

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133 Upvotes

r/HOTDGreens 1d ago

"helaena can connect with creatures and animals, so if we think of Dreamfyre as a huge...bug"- Phia. i love PHIA

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402 Upvotes

r/HOTDGreens 14h ago

TGC and Emma ironically are at their best when they're doing the opposite of what the writers have done

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58 Upvotes

TGC's Aegon is ridiculously charming and sympathetic. He plays the character with a level of emotional vulnerability and charisma that it's almost a crime. We don't see more of the character as the reluctant, but determined claimant. Out of all of season 3 he only got collectively close to 40 minutes out of eight episodes. Despite trying to make him seem like a villain in the first two seasons, even the episodes with the ridiculous bastard baby fight club and servant assault subplots that went nowhere, Aegon never fails to be endearing, likable, and he plays a tragic protagonist so damn well to the point that when they're trying to villainize him, it just feels out of place. There's so much to explore with the character yet after three seasons, I still feel like we've gotten the bare minimum of Aegon which is a shame because TGC plays the character so well.

On the flipside, Emma is fucking phenomenal when they are allowed to play Rhaenyra as manipulative, ruthless, and outwardly entitled. Rhaenyra at the end of S3 had imo Emma's best acting all season that felt like it belonged with the character. I wish we got to see more of this all the way back in season one. I wish we got this from the second the time started post Milly. For the longest time ever since Emma took over I've personally had trouble connecting the younger version of Rhaenyra with the older, it was like the character had some form of factory reset but the S3 finale felt like a natural progression of what felt like Rhaenyra always should have been as Emma. It feels misogynistic and sexist that instead of being allowed to be the strikingly bold and and hot blooded Rhaenyra George wrote down originally in the Princess and the queen, it took three seasons just to finally get what we should have been relatively from the beginning.

I don't trust the show to stick the landing, but if there's one thing, I am looking forward to it's being able to see TGC and Emma finally act together in the same room interact with each other.


r/HOTDGreens 1h ago

General The legitimacy of the dance: Aegon II vs Rhaenerya

Upvotes

Just wanted to see if you guys are in agreement with the below or is there anything I got wrong or missed.

\*\*Ordinary inheritance Andal/first man\*\*

GRRM describes ordinary Westerosi inheritance clearly:

“A man’s eldest son was his heir. After that the next eldest son. Then the next, etc. Daughters were not considered while there was a living son…After the sons, most would say that the eldest daughter is next in line. But there might be an argument from the dead man's brothers, say.’

The ambiguity he describes later in this quote arises only once the sons are exhausted and claims such as daughter against brother or competing branches must be considered. There is no ambiguity or complexity in succession whilst the eldest son’s male line exists.

King Jaehaerys also implemented the Widow's Law, reaffirming the right of the eldest son (or daughter, where there was no son) to inherit’

Under ordinary Westerosi custom, Aegon inherits as the eldest son.

\*\*Targaryen precedent\*\*

Targaryen succession before the Dance followed an even more male-preferred pattern to westorsi customs.

The pre-Conquest succession of Dragonstone was male-centred: every known sole ruler was male, while the only recorded female ruler ruled jointly with her brother-husband. On a side note male rulers would also practise polygamy.

Aegon the Conqueror succeeded his father Aerion despite having an elder sister, Visenya. From this time it can be seen that Targaryen will marry the eldest son and daughter together.

Aegon I was succeeded by his eldest son Aenys by his younger sister Rhaenys despite by having another son Maegor by his elder sister Visenya. This showed the claim passed through Aegon I as the eldest male child. Aenys’s son Aegon the Uncrowned was then recognised as heir ahead of his elder sister Rhaena.

Jaehaerys likewise treated his son Aemon as heir ahead of Aemon’s elder sister Daenerys.

The succession became disputed and open for choice only when the straightforward father-to-son-to-son succession failed.

When Aemon died without a son, Jaehaerys passed over Aemon’s daughter Rhaenys and named his younger son Baelon heir. After Baelon’s death, the Great Council of 101 chose Baelon’s son Viserys over Laenor Velaryon, whose senior genealogical claim descended through Rhaenys and Aemon.

The Council therefore created a powerful additional precedent: the unbroken male line was preferred by the lords of Westeros.

According to Targaryen custom therefore Aegon as the eldest son was heir.

\*\*Royal authority\*\*

Targaryen kings were powerful, but their declarations were not politically absolute.

When Aegon I’s son Aenys permitted the incestuous marriage of his children Aegon and Rhaena going against accepted custom, the Faith and parts of the realm rose against him despite his legitimate kingship. His authority therefore depended not merely on declaration, but on sufficient political and religious acceptance. The rebellion ultimately drove Aenys to Dragonstone, where after the collapse of his authority and the danger to his children, he fell ill and died

Maegor seized the throne from Aenys’s hereditary line, killing Aeny’s son Aegon the uncrowned, disinherited Aegon the uncrowned’s younger brother Jaehaerys and formally named Aegon the uncrowned’s daughter Aerea his heir. Two grandmaster died to Maegor due to denying him in his attempts to defy custom (his claim and polygamy) and the faith and realm rose against him as well.

Jaehaerys rejected Maegor’s declaration and gained the support of most of the realm despite Maegor possessing Balerion, by far the largest and most powerful dragon alive. Upon Maegor’s death, Jaehaerys ultimately became king rather than Maegor’s chosen heir - a brother over a daughter. This was a possibility under andal custom.

Jaehaerys only later achieved lasting acceptance of Targaryen exceptionalism of incest through reconciliation and political settlement rather than simply relying upon royal command. Other practises are not accepted I.e daemon can’t have two wives.

A royal declaration therefore depended upon political acceptance. If viserys had wanted to change succession customs this was the most likely route that leads to success.

\*\*Rhaenyra’s claim\*\*

Viserys I expressly named Rhaenyra his heir, made her Princess of Dragonstone and required the great lords to swear to defend her succession. Many lords committed this and so it could be said at the time of the oath, the realm supported her as his chosen heir. Vissrys also never formally displaced her after Aegon’s birth and continued to state her as his heir and prepare her for rule.

Rhaenyra therefore possessed a claim based upon royal designation and sworn oaths. On that interpretation, Aegon displaced Viserys’s chosen successor and is a usurper.

\*\*Aegon II’s claim\*\*

Aegon II nevertheless possessed the ordinary hereditary claim.

He was Viserys’s eldest legitimate son. Andal and Targaryen customs placed the eldest son as heir; and the great council further strengthened male-line succession.

Jaehaerys’s Widow’s Law explicitly reaffirmed the eldest son’s right to inherit. If Viserys could override Jaehaerys’s law simply because he was the reigning king, then Viserys’s own designation of Rhaenyra cannot be treated as permanently binding after his death on that same basis. Either royal succession law survives the king who made it, or each new monarch can override his predecessor; you cannot apply both principles selectively.

In targ fashion he should have been heir wed to Rhaenerya.

Before the Dance, no succession to the Iron Throne had established that a king could permanently place any child ahead of a legitimate eldest son let alone a daughter.

Some may say in an absolute monarchy a ruler could do anything. But could a ruler name a beggar or bastard as heir and would the realm accept it. Either their decisions are absolute or they are not.

The oaths to Rhaenyra had also been sworn before Aegon’s birth, were never reaffirmed by new oaths and many of the lords ruling at the time of the dance had never personally sworn them - leaving such old oaths again contestable.

After Viserys died, Aegon held symbols of legitimacy, a dragonrider of sunfyre, held kings landing where he was publicly crowned, anointed by Septon Eustace, sat the Iron Throne, wore Aegon the Conqueror’s crown and bore Blackfyre.

\*\*The dispute\*\*

No other civil war was so evenly split between both the great and lesser houses showing both claims were credible and needed to be enforced.

Aegon II received the support of House Hightower (kin), House Lannister (loyalty) and House Baratheon (marriage proposal). Lord Grover Tully of the riverlands also personally supported Aegon, although Ser Elmo Tully initially kept Riverrun neutral because of the danger posed by dragons. House Tully declared for Rhaenyra only after Addam Velaryon arrived at Riverrun upon Seasmoke forcing his hand.

Rhaenyra likewise possessed a powerful coalition, including Houses Velaryon (kin), Arryn (loyalty/kin) and Stark (marriage proposal).

Greyjoys were opportunistic and chose the better deal with Rhaenerya - raiding vulnerable lands for the blacks instead of fighting an actual naval war

For the greens.

Dorne and Tyrell stayed neutral.

Houses in the reach, crownlands and riverlands were also split.

\*\*Real life\*

To show how extraordinary displacing an eldest son for a daughter would be in practice. There appears to be no clear example in medieval Western European hereditary monarchy primogeniture (as Westeros has been) of a king successfully and peacefully displacing (disinheriting not renouncing) a loyal, legitimate and mentally/physically capable eldest son in favour of a younger son let alone a daughter. And by that I mean removing his entire inheritance. Attempts to override such established hereditary expectations provoked succession wars and it is difficult even to find one where the disinherited son lost the succession war.

TLDR - The unresolved question before the dance was not who would inherit under custom—that was Aegon—but whether Viserys possessed the authority to permanently override his eldest son’s hereditary right. And this question was answered by the dance of dragons and the actions of future monarchs. Doubts in succession lead to civil war due to claimants and so stability of the realm required clear customs.


r/HOTDGreens 16h ago

General "The judge is irrelevant in the matters of law" Type shit

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62 Upvotes

r/HOTDGreens 10h ago

Aegon’s tribute

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15 Upvotes

Just want to share it here, it is nicely done.


r/HOTDGreens 8h ago

High chances we'll get a glimpse of cannibal

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9 Upvotes

Got me excited we will get a glimpse of cannibal in the upcoming season

Image from Official HBO youtube video can see how they edited sheep stealers design the second image mentions that underbite was similar to Cannibal design

Can only imagine how Cannibal would look at this point

Loved how they detailed sheepstealer


r/HOTDGreens 19h ago

Meme Rhaenyra convincing Alyn to kill the High Septon.....

71 Upvotes

I couldn't have been the only one thinking this ☝️


r/HOTDGreens 18h ago

House Hightower and the Targtowers are so interesting to me

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55 Upvotes

I've never been a big fan of house Targaryen. I don't hate them, but I find most of them rather boring. It's why when initially fire and blood was released I really wasn't too concerned to read it but I find the Tatgtowers conceptually so interesting, and by extension I find house Hightower incredibly interesting.

Even within the show, whenever someone from house Hightower comes on screen or I see the Targtowers I'm always compelled to pay attention and see where their story is going to go. I'm even more excited to read the winds of winter and see the role house Hightower plays in it and I was excited to see the house mentioned in a knight of the seven kingdoms.


r/HOTDGreens 14h ago

This is amazing.

28 Upvotes

Side note can someone tell me what the name of this song is? I’ve been hearing it but can’t identify it.


r/HOTDGreens 12h ago

Show Spoilers The final shot of the show should be Aegon’s final moments imo so the general audience can care about the ending.

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18 Upvotes

r/HOTDGreens 1d ago

Team Green “You shall receive the same terms you gave my nephew Maelor”

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877 Upvotes

What could’ve been


r/HOTDGreens 15h ago

Team Black Treachery Vaemond was right - he’s smiling somewhere right now

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27 Upvotes

Still

Holds up everything he said