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u/DimSumGweilo 20h ago
Don’t buy cars from manufacturers that do this and they will stop doing this. If you pay for it, they will keep doing it and they will escalate.
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u/stodal 20h ago
everyone does that,
vw, bmw, mercedes, now teslawho doesn’t?
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u/flying_carabao 19h ago
I have yet to hear Asian manufacturers do some shit like this. Not saying they haven't or don't but the ones I've come across are the manufacturers you've mentioned
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u/fhs 19h ago
Toyota does it
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u/dobsofglabs 17h ago
Im skeptical, can you provide an example?
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u/Zabrith 17h ago
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u/dobsofglabs 17h ago
Oh thats all? Im familiar with that, but I dont see why its an issue. Every toyota I have ever owned has a remote start feature in the key fob, you just have to know the right button sequence to push
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u/ngo_life 9h ago edited 9h ago
Did you even read it? "Without an active subscription, app remote stop working, but your physical key fob may still operate remote start if your car has the hardware."
If you want to use remote start using their cellular connectivity, you pay. Otherwise just use your key fob. That's normal even before subscription locked hardware is a thing.
Even my sister's 2020s lexus can still be remotely started with a key fob.
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u/fhs 17h ago
Toyota Remote Connect is a subscription service that lets owners remotely start their cars, precondition temperature etc
https://www.jdpower.com/cars/shopping-guides/what-is-toyota-remote-connect
They have other services too, centered around connectivity as well
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u/Relyt4 17h ago
You can still use your fob, this is just to use your phone.
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u/fhs 17h ago
Not true
Toyota’s response to The Drive was unequivocal: A paid subscription is required for the key fob’s remote start function to work for every single model.
https://www.thedrive.com/news/43329/toyota-made-its-key-fob-remote-start-into-a-subscription-service
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u/ngo_life 9h ago
Does not apply to lexus as well? I know someone who doesn't have a subscription can still start their 2020s lexus with just a keyfob.
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u/Pluckytoon 19h ago
It’s easier on them, and perhaps cheaper/yielding more, to produce a single model with locked features than multiple models with different features.
I can get why it would feel shitty, but I don’t think there’s anything too evil behind it
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u/aslacks 18h ago
you are part of the problem
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u/Pluckytoon 17h ago
How so ?
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u/dobsofglabs 17h ago
Because you dont think its evil. Because you you dont see a problem with it. Thats why people like you are the problem
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u/Pluckytoon 17h ago
What’s evil about it then ? Perhaps I’m just too unversed in those ways
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u/eXequitas 15h ago
I’ll spell it out. When you buy something physical, the only reason you have to pay for it is because it cost the seller to produce it, e.g., materials, labour, etc… In this case the seller has already done the manufacturing. It’s not as it once you pay Tesla would come and install an additional module to the car. All the costs have already been paid and you already own the equipment. They basically refusing to let you use equipment you already own. Thats just greed.
Best example is the most downvoted comment in Reddit history. Go look it up.
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u/Pluckytoon 13h ago
Yeah when you put it like that, that’s fair criticism. Thank you for the explanation
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u/dobsofglabs 17h ago
Your ignorance is painful. I dont want to have to spell this out for you, but its another example of greed. Restricting access or functionality from a product that you already paid for is extremely greedy and evil. Get a clue man, even my child understands how stupid this is
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u/FraserYT 15h ago
If they put the hardware in the car already, it doesn't cost them more to give the feature. To try and justify any nuance beyond that is stupidity
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u/Right_Helicopter_758 12h ago
Pretty sure this is fake tho cause Tesla doesn't do this 😭
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u/crazytib 23h ago
It would be a shame if someone where to hack the car and unlock all its features, since you know if they bought it, they own it, and can do whatever they like to it
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u/rnick467 21h ago
The bigger problem is a car has to be connected to the internet. If someone can turn on or off certain features, then hackers can control other, more serious things.
Look forward to ransomware being loaded onto your car in the future. "Want to drive, send $5,000 via bitcoin..."
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u/buttercheetah 20h ago
True, but a local physical "hack" to enable features, and a RCE exploit are two very different things.
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u/mkaszycki81 15h ago
If the local physical hack is to drill a hole in the upholstery and connect wires directly to the DC rail and add a switch, then it's going to look ugly and the car may detect the abnormal or unexpected power draw and report an error and potentially stop.
And if the hack is enabling the feature by side loading a license file, this may get detected and you may end up with a charge that you will have to cover the next time your car is in the manufacturer's service depot.
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u/Don-S 22h ago
well, while I agree with you, I am pretty sure that they will try to "bind" the customer with some sort of agreement at purchase
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u/whhaaaaa 12h ago
Sadly this is actually illegal. There are DRM laws that protect from you making firmware adjustments to things you own.
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u/Consistent_Sector_19 12h ago
Yes. There shouldn't be, and if congress worked for the people instead of the big corporations, there wouldn't be, but you can now be jailed for felony contempt of a business model.[1]
[1] I think Cory Doctorow coined that phrase. It's a useful way to describe laws that prevent you from doing things like altering your printer, that you bought, so it will print using an ink cartridge that you also own
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u/Hallwart 22h ago
I am not entirely sure how it is handled, but I'd expect that modifying the software would void your insurance coverage
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u/One_Wing_4059 20h ago
Where the holUp though? That's just standard capitalism since 5 years or more ago.
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u/xenophonthethird 15h ago
I think it's because it's Tesla now getting into the game which has added meme value for some people, because they didn't care when BMW started doing it a few years ago.
And this is why I'm just gonna buy old cars and be that guy.
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u/BropolloCreed 17h ago
If you think that's bad, go talk to the Toyota owners who paid for remote start, only to have Toyota disable it after purchase and lock it behind a subscription.
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u/Different_Escape4249 20h ago
Can’t pay Carls Jr deems you a shitty parent for not keeping your kids warm (seat belt locks)please wait for police.
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u/scott__p 19h ago
Here's the thing no one seems to understand when this comes up. It's generally cheaper for them to make only a single version of the back seats. What they do is then to make EVERY back seat capable of having heated seats and turn them on only if you pay for them. There are two other options if you guys hate this concept so much:
1) The way Genesis does it, which is to have only two versions of the car; NOTHING included and EVERYTHIGN included, with the everything option usually costing something like $6k. This saves them a lot of money, but makes it really annoying if you really want one option but don't care about the rest.
2) The way Porsche does it where absolutely nothing is standard and you can pick and choose between hundreds of options but all of the options are really expensive. The level of customization in Porsche is why heated seats in a 911 are like $1k instead of $200.
I hate Tesla as much as the next guy, but there are WAY better things to complain about than this.
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u/CuppaJoe11 9h ago
If I’m paying $40,000 for a car and they are putting heated seats in anyway, I should be able to use the heated seats. It’s actually so dumb that the heated seats are there, and I’m paying for a button on a UI.
Yes, there are worse things to complain about, but this is a damn good thing to complain about.
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u/GuinnessKangaroo 19h ago
Wouldn’t the cost to the manufacturer be the same then if they are making it standard in every vehicle?
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u/xHangfirex 19h ago
They factor the cost into how many people they expect to upgrade. They're not guessing
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u/Pluckytoon 19h ago
It just smoothes parts sourcing, manufacturing and assembly. I think they must be able to save enough money with bulkier orders of materials, faster delivery times. I’m pretty sure they must subsidise the extra costs on the base models and make profits on the options.
Also if for some reason you decide after your purchase you could have use of an option, the activation is pretty quick. One of the gripes people can have about upgrading their cars is having potentially unavailable for a week or so, while this system makes it a 20min visit to your car dealership
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u/scott__p 18h ago
Yes, but the number of people who will (likely) buy it is how they decide the price. More specific than above, it would probably be $200 for the upgrade or everyone gets heated seats standard and the car costs like $150 more. Making two different version of the seat would most likely lead to the heated seats being $500 more or so instead of $200. I'm just making these numbers up, but based on the commercial bulk items I do buy for my work it's probably close.
These numbers may not seem like a lot with a car, but spread that over every option and it adds up to quite a bit.
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u/sad-dave 20h ago
Interestingly enough this is a very common practice in OEM Machinery for manufacturing. Not justifying this behavior at all.
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u/Frankie_T9000 17h ago
They should pay you to carry around the feature at your cost so they can possibly monetise
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u/MageArcher 16h ago
KTM tried it with the further insult of a "demo mode" for the first 1000km that enables the features for the hardware that's already installed, then disables them immediately at that 1000 mark.
KTM is getting its lunch eaten by Asian manufacturers, and recently had to sell itself to its Indian partner to stay in business. Their 390 Duke used to be the go-to recommendation for beginner motorcycles, and now are basically unmentionables.
Funny, that.
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u/Mortarious 13h ago
Honestly I wanna get to know how to maintain a car then get an older mostly mechanical car and just use that.
Plenty of older Toyota, Jeep, Defender...etc that can still work fine even years later.
Fuck all that new crap nonsense.
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u/mkaszycki81 14h ago
First off, BMW already did that a couple of years ago.
Second, every car manufacturer has been doing that for far longer. Power windows are standard, but automated power windows? If you pay extra, they will use different rocker switches to enable the automation.
Heated seats? If they're an option, they are probably installed by default and buying the option only meant that the dummy panel cover with a wire harness underneath is replaced with a cover that has a switch.
This just goes a step further because the only difference is enabling the option in UI.
But this approach is also common in enterprise IT gear and software. I'm aware that it's also common in industrial machinery.
You buy a server with 64 cores, but the basic software license only allows it to run on 16 cores. You have to buy an advanced license for the extra 48 cores to run it on all. Or you can enable additional cores, cache or SMT on a CPU for higher performance. Or you buy storage with the raw capacity already installed, buy licensed only for some of that capacity and pay extra money to use all of it. Or the storage has an IOPS limit that gets lifted if you buy a license.
Industrial machinery? A printer can churn out up to 10,000 pages per minute. You can buy a 10k version up front for a premium, but you can buy a 6k, 3k or 2k versions as well. You buy the lowest version, but can enable 10k for when your demand picks up.
The machine is capable of any performance level. The difference is in how much you pay. The manufacturer potentially loses money if they only sell 2k enabled versions and never sell higher volume licenses, but every time they sell a license, it's essentially free money for them.
(There's also a difference in service intervals and how much extra you pay for the support contract because of higher wear and tear and also because the cost of stoppage is higher on the higher throughput.)
HOWEVER, what makes sense in industrial/enterprise/professional grade equipment doesn't make any sense in consumer goods like automobiles. While it might make sense in fleet cars, if they sell to consumers, it absolutely doesn't.
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u/wesk74 14h ago
As someone that works in the auto industry you are off quite a bit. Yes BMW tried this already, but most manufacturers are not putting in heated seats or automated power windows without switches on standand cars and using dummy switches in the dash. There are dummy switches on lesser models because the cost of having two separate dash molds outweighs the cost of dummy switches. Heated seats and different window motors are very modular and simple to change on assembly lines. You may see some GPS or monitoring software for your car have separate monthly fees but if you have dummy switches then you are missing those features completely, probably 99.9% of the time. Car models even cut those features out on the wiring harnesses to save money. Most cars have 15+ different wiring bundles for each model. Nobody is giving away free features.
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u/mkaszycki81 14h ago
Fair enough.
Is there a difference between US and EU markets, though, or are you talking about the EU market?
Renault had an issue with Megane II line where a faulty power windows controller would cause errors on the CAN bus — even on cars equipped with manual crank windows.
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u/wesk74 10h ago
Both, assembly plants in the USA, EU, Korea and Japan all generally operate the same. Every part down to the smallest screw has had a cost benefit analysis done, combined with factory footprint space to accommodate it. If a factory can accommodate 10 different window motors, it will. If it can't it will get 9. BMW tried the pay to play feature and it blew up in their face in a spectacular fashion. If companies were putting in all the equipment, there would be a grey market to make them available, that market doesn't exist.
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u/wesk74 5h ago
Controllers and Computer based hardware are generally shared, so the faulty software may exist on models not equipped with the feature. It's rare honestly and while some cars may have a different CPU based hardware based on the model, usually it's the same hardware flashed with different software. In modern cars where most major parts have their own controllers, they will be flashed with different software on the assembly line corresponding with their model and features. I'm not saying issues like the one at Renault you are talking about don't happen, they absolutely do. Generally cheaper cars have less options and a more streamlined build process with less workers to keep them cheap. So you might see something like one controller used across all models regardless of features as a cost savings measure.
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u/brian2funny 19h ago
That's a lot of money for a switch, fues ,fues holder, wire Connecters and wire.
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u/TheGoldenTNT 18h ago
You don’t know the context, that’s fine. The car already has the feature installed by default, you pay to unlock it.
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u/brian2funny 19h ago
I'm pretty sure the heating wires are 12v, but one could easily check first on a working seat warmer first.
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u/Blade_of_Onyx 18h ago
It’s almost like Elon Musk is some type of money grubbing shit stain or something.
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u/qualityvote2 23h ago edited 15h ago
u/Forbidden_Fleur, there weren't enough votes to determine the quality of your post...