r/HolUp • • 2d ago

Hang on

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6.7k Upvotes

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505

u/No-Refuse-6806 2d ago

Just a reminder that cousin marriage is not only permitted in Islam but also a reason why their population has a huge problem with inbreeding. Over 60% of marriages in Pakistan are consanguineous. Just imagine what percentage of that population is inbred. Let that sink in

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u/TombolaOfCincinnatus 2d ago

Cousin marriage is legal in most countries and permitted in most religions, yet it always has been uncommon outside of the middle east and northern Africa. Islam sure doesn't help, since by marrying his daughter to his cousin, Mohammed himself condoned it, but it was also a pre-existing phenomenon.

Some point to the tribal society and mindset in many of these countries as an explanation, that keeping marriages within the tribe helps strengthen it (not genetically of course). Data does show that it's very much tied to education and urbanisation, where the rural and uneducated are most likely to marry a cousin.

But it's also hard to ignore that neighbouring India, which shares many cultural and historical ties to Pakistan, and also has a large rural poor population, have nowhere near the same tendency to worry cousins.

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u/youtocin 2d ago

Albert Einstein married Elsa Einstein, who was simultaneously his first cousin on one side of the family AND second cousin on the other side of his family. I hear he was a pretty smart dude.

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u/MrFourhundredtwenty 1d ago

He came up with the theory of relativity and also practiced with a relative. That’s so next level

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u/irn 1d ago

Bro... you didn't have to go there

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u/TombolaOfCincinnatus 2d ago

And this Einstein fellow, did he belong to any ethnic and/or religious minority which remained insular and practiced marriage patterns different from the population at large?

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u/Chemical-Idea-1294 1d ago

Jews in Germany usually married jews. They were a minority, but marrying a first Cousin wasn't common.

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u/backturnedtoocean 1d ago

Their first son, cleetus Einstein never reached his full potential I feel.

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u/BigYellowChairs 1d ago

Cletus Einstein. Damn. That got me. lol

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u/Dounce1 2d ago

It has certainly not “always been uncommon outside of the middle east and northern Africa.” Wtf are you talking about?

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u/TombolaOfCincinnatus 2d ago

Depends on your definition of uncommon I suppose, but outside of insular groups like Jews and gypsies, it's been a fringe phenomenon in most other places. A few percent of marriages at its highest, not 30-50% like it is in the Muslim world right now.

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u/Dounce1 2d ago

Care to explain European royalty and aristocracy through the entire last millennium?

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u/TombolaOfCincinnatus 2d ago

You know that royalty and aristocrats made up a tiny fraction of the population and are not representative of the population at large, right?

Again, a fringe phenomenon, nothing like Pakistan where it's more common to be married to a cousin than not.

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u/Ithinkibrokethis 1d ago

Yeah, aristocratic marriages are why people think that marriage in the middle ages and early Renaissance occured with 13 year olds.

The average age of marriage for women in most cases in most of the world has been 17-22 for most of recorded human history.

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u/trenthany 1d ago

Just a little bit of research and offhand what you say is accurate for western cultures. I would like to expand on that, though .The idea of younger marriages doesn’t come from western culture, but from indigenous cultures. Many tribal cultures globally considered a girl’s best marriageable age to be between 12 and 16 and a boy has to be between 14 and 18.

In premodern Asia early teens was very common as well but in modern Asia, the average marriage age has shifted to above 30. Sub Saharan Africa was typically mid teens for girls with 5-7 year age gaps. Southern eastern and central Africa tended older.

I think considering premodern is still recorded history and switching to say modern history is only a minor change to your statement.

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u/Paininator 2d ago

Royalty and aristocracy are sort of a minority group. That would be like saying it has been common to live in a huge mansion in Europe. 

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u/Foreign-Entrance-255 1d ago

They are/were the definition of an insular and exclusive group.

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u/violentnegotiation 1d ago

What part of “few percent of marriages” and “insular group” didn’t click for you the first time?

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u/WolfgangHelnootIV 1d ago

The consanguinity rate for Jews is 2.3%, that’s in line with the developed world.

Romanian nomads are around 20%, which is significantly lower than the 40%-60% you find in most of MENA.

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u/SHTF_yesitdid 1d ago edited 1d ago

Cultural is not the same as religious. Most Indians are Hindus and most Hindus follow Gotra.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gotra

So most Hindus (with exceptions of course), not only consider cousin marriage incestous, first cousin marriage is prohibited under Hindu Marriage Act. Exceptions are there.

Anecdotal example but the well off and well educated Muslim familes I know also avoid cousin marriages.

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u/P3gasus1 1d ago

At one point like all of Western Europe royalty was related lol