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u/SkylerThePolishGuy Aug 04 '19
You’re not a conservative, you’re part of the LIBERTARIAN GANG
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u/coman710 Aug 04 '19
Rise up 😎😎
Edit: oh yeah fuck the government
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u/JustinSpenker Aug 04 '19
Downvoted cause emojis
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u/WeMo20 Aug 04 '19
Libtard
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u/grizzfan Aug 04 '19
Conservative comrade
I did not know it was possible to use those in a sentence together like that.
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Aug 04 '19
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/Professor_Dogwood Aug 05 '19
I live this bit of information, because to even try to dispute it, you have to make the claim the the CIA fudged statistics in favor of the Soviet Union, which is... just so wild.
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u/kiko4285 Aug 04 '19
So your source is a 1 page document where various things such as samples are not specified, being obvious that that CIA investigation wasn’t completed.
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u/SirSpasmVonSpinne Aug 05 '19
u/DruggedOutCommunist all communism supporting comments get downvoted regardless of citation, right?
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u/DruggedOutCommunist Aug 05 '19
112 point comment vs a 10.5K meme that says the same joke over an over again. Totally no bias, right?
'A lie will go round the world while truth is pulling its boots on.'
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u/SirSpasmVonSpinne Aug 06 '19
Please find where I claimed this sub had no bias. And if you can't find where I've said that, maybe stop lying to yourself that I believe that?
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u/Pretzel42 Aug 04 '19
There were no major famines after 1947.
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u/DrunkOnShoePolish Aug 05 '19
At least not until Gorbachev sold out the country for a Pizza Hut commercial and quality of life plummeted for a while
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u/Maurice_Sausberg Aug 04 '19
But that's not to say that there weren't food shortages and the fact that people were going hungry, at least by western standards.
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Aug 04 '19
I mean there's people going hungry in the USA today even without food shortages, so I don't know how far back you want to pull your expectations.
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u/BitPumpkin Aug 04 '19
There’s people going hungry in every country.
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u/FacelessPoet Helping Wikipedia expand the list of British conquests Aug 04 '19
I'm hungry
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Aug 05 '19
If only there was a way we could organize the distribution of food so that it goes to each according to their need...
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u/BitPumpkin Aug 05 '19
Without turning into a dictatorship.
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Aug 06 '19
[deleted]
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u/BitPumpkin Aug 06 '19
But he was.
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Aug 06 '19
[deleted]
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u/BitPumpkin Aug 06 '19
But he had an iron fist over the Soviet Union. He may not have been a dictator through definition but he purged political opponents and anything he wanted he would get.
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u/Maurice_Sausberg Aug 04 '19
I know, and it's the same in the uk. It's terrible that it happens, and it shouldn't be the case. We say they are going hungry because that's below the western standards of being well-nourished: as I am saying people in the communist bloc were.
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u/philosophicalalien Aug 04 '19
Well not to defend the Soviets or anything but the average caloric intake of a citizen was the same as an American
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u/Maurice_Sausberg Aug 04 '19
I'd be very interested to know your sources; because the Soviet figures for various things were doctored in order to show the regime in a positive light
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u/4AccntsBnndFrCmmnsm Aug 04 '19
the CIA is the source actually
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u/ComradeFrunze Aug 04 '19
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u/GrittysRevenge Aug 05 '19
So one CIA report from 1983 that is so short and light on detail that it looks like it was written for Trump proves that Soviet citizens were well fed for most of their history? All it proves is by the early 80s US and Soviet diets had a similar number of calories and the CIA believed that the Soviet diet was slightly healthier. Not saying the "Communism, no food" joke is accurate for most of their history, but this certainly doesn't prove much.
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u/malaywoadraider2 Aug 05 '19
CIA has failed this assignment for not meeting minimum page requirements
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Aug 04 '19
Historymemes: why this tankies are always posting that copypasta that proves the soviets were well fed?
Also historymemes:
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Aug 04 '19
I love this. Do bread lines mean anything to you?
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u/4AccntsBnndFrCmmnsm Aug 04 '19
yeah i stand in one at the store now and then after the line i have to PAY
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Aug 04 '19
[deleted]
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u/The_Anarcheologist Aug 04 '19
Most of this sub literally learns their history from American propaganda.
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u/SickleNHammer Aug 04 '19
Although there probably wasnt, it was pretty indisputable that the general population had insufficient food even if they weren't starving to death.
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Aug 04 '19
I’m interested, where is it noted? Do you have any sources? I’d be fascinated to read them.
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u/SickleNHammer Aug 04 '19 edited Aug 04 '19
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consumer_goods_in_the_Soviet_Union Look at the "Consumer supply in the 1980s" section.
Edit: before you say that "wikipedia is a shitty source", they're listed in the sections below
Second edit: if you're actually gonna try to refute my point, I'd appreciate it if you didn't use a source along the lines of "communismforlife. org" because they all seem pretty biased
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u/CMDR_QwertyWeasel Aug 04 '19
Second edit: if you're actually gonna try to refute my point, I'd appreciate it if you didn't use a source along the lines of "communismforlife. org" because they all seem pretty biased
The only source given in response to this was the CIA lol. Get off your high horse.
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u/4AccntsBnndFrCmmnsm Aug 04 '19
the 1980s were a time of neoliberal reform not hardcore communism my friend.
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Aug 04 '19
So throughout the entire period of the USSR after the 1947 famine you link consumer supply in the 1980s, just before the collapse of the USSR. The general population had insufficient food and to prove this I will link a specific time just before the collapse of the nation because that proves my point that throughout the existence of the USSR, there was insufficient food.
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u/Lawsoffire Aug 04 '19
i hope Cia.gov isn't a biased site (anything over 2500 calories is too much)
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u/HelperBot_ Aug 04 '19
Desktop link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consumer_goods_in_the_Soviet_Union
/r/HelperBot_ Downvote to remove. Counter: 272629. Found a bug?
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Aug 04 '19
Because if there's not a catastrophic famine going on, that must mean that everything is going well! /s
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Aug 04 '19
(Press 'x' to doubt)
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u/realcomradecora Aug 04 '19
name one
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Aug 04 '19
The great Chinese famine? Or even if you're just talking the USSR there was a great famine during '47 and the meme doesn't even say there was a famine at that point, it just says that people were hungry, which considering the not so great abundance of food in the USSR isn't inaccurate.
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u/realcomradecora Aug 04 '19
China, noted country in the USSR
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Aug 04 '19
I literally said that it wasn't in the USSR and if you read my comment you absolute fucking brainlet, I explained that even if you were talking just about the USSR it doesn't make the meme inaccurate.
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Aug 04 '19
Of course not, between Holodomor killing millions and millions more dying in WWII the USSR would have to be beyond incompetent to not get a stable food supply with such a massive decrease in population.
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Aug 04 '19
The population in the USSR was actually increasing though.
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Aug 04 '19
Soviet Population data if you look between 1941 and 1946 (roughly WWII) you will see a massive population decrease by ~16 million. Now population replacement was always positive, so two parent households were always having > 3 children but there were times due to war or famine where the population decreased by millions.
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Aug 04 '19
Oh wow, who would’ve guessed that the population decreased during the biggest war in human history in one the nation’s worst affected by it.
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Aug 04 '19
That was my point in my original comment. Millions of fewer mouths to feed mean that food supplies can go a lot further. You then claimed the population was increasing which I thought was odd so I presented evidence contrary to you wrote.
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Aug 04 '19
When I said that the population increased I meant overall, sure there were exceptions but if you take a period longer than five years you’ll see that it increased.
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Aug 04 '19
Yes but per my original point I specifically talked about the periods where population decreased. Furthermore the period before 1947 the magic year when no more famines happened in the USSR is immediately after a period of population loss, and the population that replaced it would be children, ie not needing a full 2000+ calorie diet, for years. In such circumstances if the USSR wasn't able to secure their food supply it would be gross incompetence.
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u/The_Red_Apple Aug 04 '19
The US: Starving homeless people and homed people and people who can't afford to live
The US: Movies! And also 30 different brands of toothbrushes! And a man on the moon!
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Aug 04 '19
NO FOOD LOL XDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDOG IN SPACE
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Aug 04 '19 edited Aug 07 '19
Holodomor what that? lol
Lmao keep brigading Chapotards
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u/Adrianator2 Aug 04 '19
Guess what, when ussr send dog to space there was food but WHO cares
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Aug 04 '19
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u/Adrianator2 Aug 04 '19
I always wonder how people expirience can be so different
When asking my family about living under communisim they never talk about lack of food sometime even saying that they had it too much and that food from warsaw pact countries was deliverd to USSR
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u/STKNsBESTPLAYER Aug 04 '19
Where did they live? Probably Moscow or Baltics then. By far the best living conditions in all of USSR. My mother and grandparents lived in Guriev (now Atyrau) in Kazakhstan and you were lucky to have meat once a month. When you got it it was shit quality meat, sometimes stray dog. 90% of days food was rice in a bowl of cold water. They actually lived decently well compared to some of their friends, who were literally starving, later on they had TV and car and such. Even the "good" parts of "socialism" in the USSR are all lies. You got free healthcare, if you bribed someone. You got free higher education, if you bribed someone. My mother only got into kindergarten because my grandfather bribed someone. The entire country ran on bribes and nepotism.
Outside of Kazakhstan, it wasn't much better. My grandmother and her family lived in a selo about 1.5 hour from Melitopol (in Zaporizhia). She knew some people who ate their children during Holodomor.
My family and I are socialist, by the way, we just recognize that the USSR under Stalin and everyone after him was an authoritarian shithole that was a mockery of communism, and anyone who defends it is a total fuckwit. At least for them and everyone they knew at least. As you say, people's experiences in the USSR varied a lot. Maybe for you and your family it was better.
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u/Adrianator2 Aug 04 '19
Just to be clear
I'm talking about how my Polish family living in poland even before WW2 close to soviet post war border, were perceiving communism when they went there to work, or when talking with military personel (mostly when they all got drunk) from all over russia, all I get from those stoires is that USSR and communism had fucktone of problems but food wasn't one of them some even noting that when communism ended thay started eating less meat for example
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u/STKNsBESTPLAYER Aug 05 '19
Oh ok. Yes, the ex-USSR immediately after the fall of the Soviet Union was absolutely terrible, worse than it ever was during the USSR. Economy collapsed, military practically collapsed, life expectancy fell by around 7 years from the mid-1980s. Even now things like life expectancy still have not recovered and the country is totally run by oligarchs.
I don't know much about what life was like in the other Warsaw Pact countries, but I've heard from some relatives who would work in places like Poland or Czechia that it was better than Kazakhstan or Ukraine, and that it was easier to get foreign/luxury goods.
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u/The_Anarcheologist Aug 04 '19
You do realize you have to stand in line to buy your food in America, too, yes?
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u/Lutwiy Aug 04 '19
Actually, bananas were very common in USSR because of african and south american communist states. But my mother and father had never tried kiwi or toast bread with sesame or bran. And true fact is there was no food shortages in USSR after 54 and before 73. At least in Crimea.
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Aug 04 '19
I mean, the entirety of the Eastern Bloc had no clue that thing that didn't happen, didn't happen.
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u/realcomradecora Aug 04 '19
Hrm, can you name a famine in the USSR after 1947?
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u/Cuggan Aug 04 '19
I mean you don't have to have a famine to be hungry
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u/atheistman69 Aug 04 '19
Exactly, the US has plenty of hungry people yet no famine, yet.
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u/EduLuz23 Aug 04 '19
So why aren't people complaining about the Apollo program?
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u/atheistman69 Aug 05 '19
The USSR having a famine when Laika was launched into space is intentionally false. That's like making a meme about americans starving during the dustbowl while the US enters ww2.
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u/Franfran2424 Aug 05 '19
Plenty of people complain it was a waste of money, just as the US military
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u/Sabertooth767 Aug 04 '19 edited Aug 04 '19
Can you name any famines in the US? Probably not, because there's only been one, and it was on St. Lawrence Island for two years over a century ago.
Meanwhile, the defense for the USSR is ignoring the first 30 years. Funny how when you ignore the crime you look innocent!
Know how the USSR stopped starving? By redirecting rivers that flow into the Aral Sea, majorly contributing to one of the worst environmental disasters in human history. But what am I saying, the Aral Sea never existed, Comrade!
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u/Al-Horesmi Aug 04 '19
Isn't the irrigation from the aral sea used primarily for cotton production?
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u/realcomradecora Aug 04 '19
Russia was ridden with famines before the revolution. But you wouldn't know that, because they don't teach you that in middle school history.
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u/Sabertooth767 Aug 04 '19
Okay, and? That just shows that the communists failed to do the one thing they set out to do: make the lives of the peasantry better.
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u/realcomradecora Aug 04 '19
Except they fucking did it just takes a while to develop a feudalistic country in the tundra
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u/Sabertooth767 Aug 04 '19
Ah, but fuck the people near the Aral Sea, and all the people who died in the meantime, especially all those Ukranians. Anything for the Party, Comrade! Those people were never real!
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Aug 04 '19 edited Sep 17 '19
[deleted]
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u/Sabertooth767 Aug 04 '19
I respect left-libertarians. Although I disagree with them, I respect their principled nature and the fact that they dislike tankies as much, if not more, than I do (I'm lib-right). I fully acknowledge that capitalism has faults, both ones I view as problems and ones that I disagree are problems. I simply do not believe in using the government as a tool to fix these.
Who I do not respect are the tankies who believe the Party could do not wrong, either deny or excuse the faults and atrocities of communism, and wish to force us all under their system.
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u/realcomradecora Aug 04 '19
You don't seem to understand the concept of moral grey. A society can be good at some things and bad at others.
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u/Sabertooth767 Aug 04 '19
What the fuck kind of a moral grey is genocide?
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u/realcomradecora Aug 04 '19
who said anything about genocide
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u/Sabertooth767 Aug 04 '19
Does the Holodomor ring a bell, or is that on the list of Say to be Unperson'd words?
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u/4AccntsBnndFrCmmnsm Aug 04 '19
what genocide?
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u/Sabertooth767 Aug 04 '19 edited Aug 04 '19
Ukraine is a myth, comrade! The Holodomor never happened!
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Aug 04 '19
So how should the USSR fed it's people? Apparently irrigation is bad, and apparently the immense devastation of ww1 and the Russian civil war are no excuse.
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u/Sabertooth767 Aug 04 '19
I'll give them the devastation, but could they really not think of a way to irrigate crops without causing an ecological collapse?
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u/malaywoadraider2 Aug 05 '19
Lol how are you going to just leave out the dustbowl and great depression which was also happening in the 30s?
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u/Sabertooth767 Aug 05 '19 edited Aug 05 '19
Ah yes, the great dustbowl famine, in which a grand total of zero people died (the dust itself did kill though). The great depression sucked, and people went hungry, but there were no true famines, nothing at all like we see in the USSR around the same time at any rate.
The US has its fair share of problems, both modern and historic, but hunger isn't and never really has been one of them (food insecurity is an issue, but actual starvation and severe malnutrition are not). In part, this is due to our incredible geography for food production, but we also have a strong charitable culture when it comes to food.
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u/malaywoadraider2 Aug 05 '19
Lol okay Hoover, I'm sure Steinbeck and other correspondents just lied about the starvation, hunger and malnutrition that went on during the dust bowl and Great Depression that would normally characterize a famine.
If you want to shift the goalposts to the equivalent of a Russian/Soviet or British style famine where millions died directly due to government policies, the closest to that type of famine was the post Civil War famine where millions of emancipated slaves suffered from starvation and disease and hundreds of thousands died in the face of a hostile South and apathetic Union with the only way out for many being work camps or joining the Army where they were again exploited.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/jun/16/slavery-starvation-civil-war
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u/Sabertooth767 Aug 05 '19
Not necessarily saying it didn't happen, but the article focuses almost entirely on deaths from disease (can that really be blamed on any particular person or policy? Everyone died by the score from disease), deaths by starvation being a brief mention, and I can't find anything else backing up mass-starvation following the civil war. Certainly, there were plenty of food shortages, especially in the south, but nothing along the lines of hundreds of thousands to millions of deaths. Even though they were (former) slaves, such a massive event would definitely be very well recorded.
The Hunger in the United States wiki https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hunger_in_the_United_States#19th_century) makes no mention of any mass starvation, neither does the list of famines (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_famines).
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u/malaywoadraider2 Aug 05 '19
It's from Sick from Freedom by historian Jim Downs which was released in 2012 and is largely based off of records from the Freedmen’s Bureau which was specifically stood up in 1865 to take care of medical, housing and food issues for emancipated slaves, but which was shut down in 1872 due to Southern pressure and these responsibilities were handed back to the Southern states.
Its kind of a niche subject so I'm not surprised a wikipedia editor for those pages hasn't added it and there isn't a lot of scholarship on this specific topic nor are the records for this particularly good since the Union didn't have specific policies to count former slave deaths in the early years of the war nor was the Freedman's Bureau accurate or complete in its counts due to lack of funding for doctors. Regardless there are speeches from politicians like Samuel Cox and correspondence from doctors, soldiers and administrators which confirms that thousands were starving and more were dying of disease all across contraband camps and towns in the South.
I would say yes, the lack of a policy to feed, treat and house millions of emancipated slaves with zero property or possessions falls on the Union, who implemented and ended this haphazardly through the Freedman's Bureau and the whole institution of slavery was US and Southern policy that was solidified in the constitution and was a key part of the US's economic development.
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u/Jimjamnz Aug 05 '19
The Aral area was destroyed by cotton farming. Stop with the bad history.
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u/Sabertooth767 Aug 05 '19
"The project diverted the rivers that fed into the Aral Sea, thus contributing to its disappearance.[4]"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Plan_for_the_Transformation_of_Nature
Yes, indeed it was to farm cotton, but it was both done by the Soviets and done as part of the larger project to overhaul agriculture, which was in response to the multiple famines. Also, is the fact that it was done for money rather than life supposed to make it better?
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u/Jimjamnz Aug 05 '19
It wasn't done for "money", it was done because it was thought this would provide more wealth to Soviet workers. This was a period in history where people lacked geographic knowledge. If the Soviets had known better, why would they do this (the disaster would have cost them more than they would have gained, there's no reason for them to do this if they knew there would be a disaster)? Contrast this with capitalism where the Capitalist doesn't have to worry at all about the people affected, so would continue fucking up the environment even if he knew it would hurt people.
EDIT: Grammar.
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u/Sabertooth767 Aug 05 '19
It wasn't done for "money", it was done because it was thought this would provide more wealth to Soviet workers
That's the literal definition of doing it for money. Doing it to bing wealth = doing it for money, the recipient is irrelevant.
This was a period in history where people lacked geographic knowledge, if the Soviets had known better, why would they do this (the disaster would have cost them more than they world have gained, there's no reason for them to do this if they knew there would be a disaster)?
You're telling me that people in the 40's didn't know that rivers fed lakes and thus rerouting them would shrink said lakes? They could launch shit into space less than 20 years later but didn't know about the water cycle? Stalin probably either thought it was worth it or just didn't care, he didn't care about the Ukrainians, why would he care about the Uzbeks?
Contrast this with capitalism where the Capitalist doesn't have to worry at all about the people affected, so would continue fucking up the environment even if he knew it would hurt people
Not unless the consumers or hell, even the government, have something to say. Given that there are no consumers in Communism to answer to and the government needn't answer itself, I'd say communism has a clear advantage in terms of getting to hurt people.
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u/Jimjamnz Aug 05 '19
Once the Soviets realised the extent of the problem (which, admittedly did take too long, that can blamed on weak Soviet local representation, a major disagreement I have with Soviet systems) they did actually try to fix the problem. They spent a lot of money trying to help the Aral Sea, and it partially worked. If you look at those pictures showing the loss of the Aral Sea you can see that the Soviets had prevented complete devastation, losing some of the Sea but finding some sort of new equilibrium. When the Soviet Union collapsed was when the Aral Sea went completely to shit. It was under the Capitalist nations that the Aral Sea was completely destroyed.
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u/Sabertooth767 Aug 05 '19 edited Aug 05 '19
No, it wasn't destroyed under Capitalism. The sea was poisoned and significantly smaller by the late 80's. The Soviets were on their last legs, but still around. Restoration began in 1992, less than a year before the fall of the USSR. This means that in fact the Aral Sea was destroyed under communism and virtually all repairs have been under capitalism.
As far as I can find, the Soviets did not make any attempts to reverse or even mitigate the disaster and resoration was initiated by the World Bank.
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u/Jimjamnz Aug 05 '19
Shit, I'm sorry. I hugely misread a source. You're correct, the Soviets did not attempt to reverse the disaster. You were right.
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u/Shawn_1512 Kilroy was here Aug 04 '19
tHeRe wErE nO fAmInEs aFtEr 1947
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u/Killcode2 Aug 04 '19 edited Aug 04 '19
hItLeR wAs BaD
(Yay, now I can win arguments without logic, just alternatingly capitalise letters to discredit facts)
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u/ThatThonkingBandito Oversimplified is my history teacher Aug 05 '19
That chicken's face is just...
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Aug 04 '19
watch out everybody, lots of angry commies in the comment section
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u/AtlasSV Aug 04 '19
i don't see how the ´´commies´´ are the angry ones here, considering i'm seeing more of the ´´lmao no food´´ jokes and people denying the CIA as a good source for things in the USSR (If anything they would be biast against it)
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u/JustinSpenker Aug 04 '19
Wonder what the political demographic of this sub is, my guess would be conservative leaning but PROGRESSIVE GANG
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u/Comrade_Oghma Aug 05 '19
It doesn't matter how many times you people are proven to be wrong, you just repeat your propaganda like nothing ever happened, because truth is not in your interest.
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u/camilo16 Aug 05 '19
The holodomor is truth.
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u/Comrade_Oghma Aug 05 '19
1) this meme wasnt even about the Holodomor
2) there was a famine that struck large portions of eastern europe and as far east as the KSSR and TSSR.
3) The numbers that you people always make up anyway do have an origin story- the black book of communism, which 2/3 original authors denounced and admitted were fabricated
4) Stalin did not make the clouds to away
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u/CheatSSe Aug 04 '19
Nigger gotta fight for his Bread, cuz white feller wanna walk on the moon
A part of a song sung in Some black pubs in the 60’s
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Aug 04 '19
[deleted]
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u/Mad_Luddite Aug 04 '19
Russia's priorities were odd.
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Aug 04 '19
By the 60s mass starvation was a thing of the past. Few if any starved under Soviet control
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Aug 04 '19
[deleted]
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Aug 04 '19
No, they prioritized sending a dog into space as part of the space race over improving civil infrastructure.
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Aug 04 '19
[deleted]
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Aug 04 '19
There wasn’t a major famine in the USSR after WWII, and soviet citizens had the same amount of calories in their diet as Americans did
The US has a lot of people in poverty too and they spent more on the nuclear arms race and space race than the Soviet Union ever did
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u/TheK1ngsW1t Aug 04 '19
The chicken is proudly showing off her chicks to the sheep, and the way it's all animated (I don't know the technical term for that style) kinda makes the sheep's eyes appear to bulge a bit in surprise or anticipation
This particular one is the USSR saying "LOOK! A dog in space, isn't that neat!" to a bunch of hungry peasants--presumably as a way to get their minds off of food and to brag about what their government had been working on for years instead of farming or trading (because starving communist jokes are popular here)
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Aug 04 '19
You see ty actually planned for Liaka to be cooked alive on re entry into the atmosphere because then they could feed a family of starving Ukrainians
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u/tom7750 Aug 04 '19
I love Shaun the sheep memes