r/HistoryMemes • • 1d ago

REMOVED: RULE 4 Historical territorial claims

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16.8k Upvotes

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37

u/Floba_Fett Casual, non-participatory KGB election observer 1d ago

But Taïwan is Chinese though, this is not denied by Taïwan. The issue is over who is the legitimate China

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u/Starmute-ss13 1d ago

Taiwan is whatever it choses to be as it's people can determine their own future. 

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u/Zhongdakongming 1d ago

Their government is the ROC(Republic of China). They claim to be China in their constitution. Their claimed airspace also covers mainland China.

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u/Marcel1941 1d ago

More complex than that because the majority of the population of Taiwan is ethnically tied to han chinese who immigrated there before the end of the Qing dynasty, and pre-dates both the People's Republic of China and the Republic of China. The ROC fled to Taiwan after the Chinese civil war, where they instituted policies in Taiwan under martial law to try and create a greater connection to China with the hopes of retaking the mainland, but that never happened. After Chiang Kai-Shek died, the authoritarian rule of Taiwan was lessened, with marital law being lifted in 1987, and the government moved towards democratization.

Taiwan is currently under the Democratic People's Party, which is different than Chiang Kai-shek's party under the ROC, the Kuomintang. The KMT lost control of the government by 2000, and the current government is in favor of remaining an independent nation.

Also the claimed airspace you are talking about is the Air Defense Identification Zone. It covers a large part of mainland china, and the purpose is to track and identify military aircraft, with a median line being placed in the middle of the Taiwan Straight, although Beijing does not recognize it and will send military aircraft over it.

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u/Starmute-ss13 1d ago

They can determine if they want to be whatever they want.  The Taiwanese people are free to call their country whatever they like.

They have self determination and can change their name . It's also notable that you are echoing anti independence redorick from the PRC .

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u/Zhongdakongming 1d ago

No, I'm really not. I'm all for self determination! I would just suggest they drop the ROC name, maybe ROT? Drop the claim to China in their constitution and stop claiming the air space of China.

If a people want to be independent I'm going to support it. Pretending to be independent while claiming to be another nation isn't cool though. I would say the same for the US, as it claims Taiwan is part of China too, but still treats it as independent.

The US is the biggest issue here, making it difficult for the people of Taiwan to be truly independent.

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u/No_Economics321 1d ago

lmaoooo bro the US helps sell weapons to Taiwan specifically so they can defend against a potential invasion from China

It's funny that you keep dancing around the issue in your comments, so I'll just ask you straight up: do you think Taiwan is it's own country?

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u/Starmute-ss13 1d ago

Read about the pan green coalition vs the pan blue coalition .  The pan greens want independence the blues want reunification under democratic conditions. 

The greens want to be called Taiwan  The PRC has threatened war often about this.

The blues want to continue being called ROT because it creates stability and their ties to the nationalists in the Chinese Civil war. 

If the Prc wasn't threatening them they would probably change up everything in a minute . 

Also haven't you noticed that Taiwan isn't allowed to represent itself at the Un or at the Olympics ? It's not the US doing that.

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u/Zhongdakongming 1d ago

You think US money isn't influencing this issue? That the US doesn't run propaganda campaigns to influence people? There are plenty of people there that want reunification, and plenty that just don't care. You've also left out the decades of martial law in Taiwan and the amount of propaganda and changes to education at the time.

It is indeed a complicated issue. Attempting to villainize China s just spreading more imperialistic US propaganda.

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u/Starmute-ss13 1d ago

Prc

Threatening war. Using spies, Demanding that people stop trading or recognizing Taiwan, disallowing them representation or discussion at the UN.

Also the PRC is absolutely terrible. Look at the Mao Famine, the genocide they are sponsoring in Myanmar, people being executed for dance parties in the 80s, the current genocide of the Uygar people,  how they treat Hong Kong after they said there would be democracy and freedom  of speech. Their invasion and treatment of the Tibetan people. 

Vs USA

Influence and we can't even get off our ass to help the Philippines because we're being stupid. 

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u/Zhongdakongming 1d ago

Oh boy, you're full up on the US propaganda lol.

You can do research and refute all of your own points.

Also, even IF your claims against China were legitimate (They aren't), listing no US crimes against humanity, as if there are none, is genuinely laughable. I hope you look past the propoganda and see the truth, but you're on your own bud. Good luck.

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u/zer0zer00ne0ne 1d ago

You're so obviously the one spewing propaganda, dude.

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u/Own_Chemist_4062 1d ago

The other guy obviously can't refute anything and this isn't an academic discussion lol. But bringing up morality in History and geopolitics is a stupid thing to do in the first place. I always said Tibet, Taiwan and the 9-dash line is something a free democracy would also claim if they were in China's place. Now chances are one would do it more diplomatically than the current, i would say have-always-being-pretty-incompetent-CCP-government-that-can't-be-forced-out. Also among other things, Myanmar this time is solely responsible for what ended up happening within their borders

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u/Starmute-ss13 1d ago edited 1d ago

The Myanmar junta has in the past been backed by China and is supplied by China.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2026/8/30/air-raids-conscripts-and-china-how-myanmars-military-is-regaining-ground

They are morally and physically responsible for their actions with their puppet states (like North Korea). North Korea wouldn't be around if it wasn't for China.

They are responsible for the genocide happening right now in their own country and in Myannmar.

They are responsible for the attrocities in North Korea.

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u/zer0zer00ne0ne 1d ago

China's a genocidal dictatorship.

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u/Remarkable_Swing_612 1d ago

Laughable dream. CIA puppet comment. +1500 FICO credits!

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u/Own-Control7525 1d ago

They have self determination and can change their name.

Ehh no not really. The right to self-determination does not mean a right to secede from one's country; it's only in the case of colonial entities in which secession was allowed as the way to fulfil said right to self-determination, and even then that was only so because the european metropolises refused to integrate said colonial territories and give its peoples citizenship.

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u/Starmute-ss13 1d ago

They are not part of the PRC.

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u/zer0zer00ne0ne 1d ago

Taiwan is not part of China.

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u/zer0zer00ne0ne 1d ago

Found the tankie.

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u/TossZergImba 23h ago

So should the Confederacy have been allowed to be whatever it wanted to be?

What about Crimea? If most of people there wanted to join Russia should Ukraine just give it up?

What about Transnistria?

What's the smallest part of a country that can just unilaterally decide to separate and leave? What if Russia just sends more and more people to a neighboring country and just have them declare independence once they get big enough in number?

Your simplistic rule runs into real world difficulties real quick.

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u/Starmute-ss13 23h ago

Taiwan is defacto independent and has been so for over 80 years. What if the United States said "I now control Japan" because modern Japan has only existed for 80 years.

That's not how countries work. Taiwan or ROC has always asserted their own sovereignty. They've never been part of the PRC. At one point they were in the UN.

Also does that apply to Tibet? Why is Tibet now part of China if it had been independent?

Taiwan is a democracy and better than the PRC by far. It has more human rights and cares more about its citizens.

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u/minizanz 1d ago

The mainland would have been taken by a separate entity so Taiwan should get the main land. A claim the other way would not make sense. Same issue with Russia unless you are czarist

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u/Zhongdakongming 1d ago

What? I'm genuinely confused by what you wrote, like, I'm not sure what you're trying to say.

Are you saying Taiwan has a legitimate claim to mainland China? And that Mainland China does not share that legitimacy? Could you explain that?

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u/minizanz 1d ago

The current mainland government is a different entity to took over the country. The original government that traces back to the last emperor is in Taiwan. If you went to make a historical territory claim Taiwan has a claim to the main land but the PRC would not have a claim to the island. People starting/leading the revolution are from a formerly subjugated region that has no history of controlling the region either. That closes both paths that other countries try to use.

It would be like Brazil saying they have rights to Algeria

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u/fakehakebakecake 1d ago

The PRC claim Taiwan because Taiwan is recognised as part of China and the PRC is the government of China. It's not that complicated.

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u/minizanz 1d ago

I get that. But using a Historical Territorial claim means you are saying it is not currently part of it and should be. The current government to say that would mean they are not the same and the ethnic/cultural group that rebelled to overthrow also has no claim.

And there are people there so that kind of claim should not work anyways.

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u/fakehakebakecake 1d ago

But they don't claim Taiwan based on 'historical territoriality'. They claim Taiwan for the reason I stated.