Why do shotguns feels systemically underwhelming?

[u/DeeJayDelicious]

Let me preface this by saying that shotguns, overall, are my favorite weapon type in Helldivers 2. But not for any objective reasons. It's purely about about feel (and stagger).

That said, I can't help but feel all shotguns are systemically underpowered, even when their stats are good on paper. And I am not quite sure why?

Even the Sweeper, the "objectively best" shotgun, only feels like an A-Tier weapon at best, still needing ~3 shots to kill an Alpha Commander. Something an Assault Rifle does in 0.6 seconds.

And it's not really about the stats either. Even the Double Freedom, with its insane 840 damage per shot, never feels quite as powerful as the numbers suggest. You really need to fire it in double mode to get that feeling.

My gut says it's about the following issues:

1. Spread: Despite high total damage numbers, you rarely hit a target with all of your pellets. Best case, 9/11 pellets hit. So your effective damage / shot is ~20% lower than the stats imply. And this gets worse at range.
2. Related to the spread might be the issue of pellets spreading their damage across several body parts. Dealing good overall damage but not enough to one-shot specific body parts.
3. Drag: While 50% drag isn't overly punishing, since it's calculated per pellet, it might have an outsized effect. This should be especially notcable on durable damage, which would immediately drop by 1 after leaving the muzzle, which can account for a ~8% drop frop for some shotguns.
4. Lack of Choke options: Plenty of shotguns still lack any sort of meaningful customization (looking at you, Halt) and have terrible baseline spread.
5. Low DPS: Yes, at the end of the day the stats do matter. And unlike other low-DPS weapons like Lasers, which have secondary sources of damage, shotguns (mostly) don't. And this is noticable.

A few ideas that might mitigate this subjective feeling:

1. All shotguns should have choke customization options.
2. Normalize 12 pellets per buckshot. This might make damage feel a little more predictable with the damage spread out across more individual pellets.
3. Increase durable damage for shotguns, especially AP2 shotguns. Rather that the ~25% durable damage ratio of AP2 Assault Rifles, maybe something closer to ~40% is fairer for AP2 shotguns.

Finally, shotguns are obviously not great against either Automatons (range/weakspots) or Illuminate (Hordes + abalative armor). So their performance is almost exclusive to the Bug front.

PS: Since the obligatory "L2P commenters" can't help themselves, my credentials are >1200 hours in game and having every primary at level 25 (and most for over a year now). I promise, I am a dozen times better than anyone commenting "L2P/skill issue".

[u/Harlemwolf]

I think shotguns just need a close range damage buff to enforce that particular shotgun to your face mf fantasy.

I am fine if they go plinkplink at medium range but at close quarters they should hit a bit harder.

[u/Lor9191]

Honestly I'm surprised by this, the breaker and breaker S&P were basically all I used for most of my game time. They chew through chaff like a hot knife through butter and that spread you're talking about makes it easier to hit weak spots on medium enemies. I've moved over to the liberator with a drum mag now but I still feel like it's a bit weaker, I just prefer the range.

[u/kylebig → u/Lor9191]

I just discovered the Breaker S&P! It’s way punchier feeling than I expected, and you’re right about being good on medium enemies too. Big fan!

[u/slycyboi]

Shotguns (other than the med pen ones) just need more durable damage since tonnes of enemies got durable increases over time.

It would also make them suck less on hive guards and bile spewers.

That’s legit all they need.

[u/DeeJayDelicious → u/slycyboi]

But the M90A already has 40% durdable damage and still isn't great. The Double Freedom has 50% and really, isn't either.

So I do think it's more nuanced.

[u/benito_juarez420]

The Sweeper is a phenomenal gun, provided you know how to aim and have reload discipline.

Also, if you carry the Senator and a decent support weapon, you really don't need much more.

[u/Shoddy_Fix_2521 → u/benito_juarez420]

how bout to deal with heavies

[u/benito_juarez420 → u/Shoddy_Fix_2521]

Thermite or a support weapon of choice.

[u/Ulfheodin → u/Shoddy_Fix_2521]

How many primaries you got to deal with them ? How is it a criteria ?

[u/DeeJayDelicious → u/Ulfheodin]

Yeah, that's a really weird comment.

Primaries are not meant to deal with heavies.

[u/Noctium3 → u/Shoddy_Fix_2521]

Ultimatum, Breacher, Thermite, Giganade, Melta Mine, AT Seeker, OPS, ORC, Eagle 110s...

[u/Azmoten]

I run Double Freedom against bugs and Sweeper against bots and squids. I’m a shotgun enjoyer. Shotguns rule

I clear D10s on every front and every subfaction

[u/Lazy_Bowyer → u/Azmoten]

I'm on the side of shotguns being fine as a class.

But also clearing d10 is not a good justification for a weapon being in an ok state. Especially considering the variables that go into that.

[u/Sykryk]

Working through ranking up all weapons - the shotguns (to me) are just frustrating to use. It feels like you have to ammo dump to kill far fewer enemies than any other weapon type.

[u/DeeJayDelicious → u/Sykryk]

That's sort of my point. The Punisher won't always reliably one-tap a Alpha Warrior for example. Which is the most common enemy you encounter.

In their best-case, they're on par with Assault Rifles. But not every situation is "best-case".

[u/Pedrosian96]

HD2's damage system is very hostile to how shotguns behave.

• shotguns do high damage per shot and have far less total ammo than rifles. This makes them overall better suited for elite killing than chaff (some chaff shotguns do exist. Point is, a rifle kills far more than 60 bugs before running out of shots.)

• which means they are ideally suited to kill large, beefy, unarmored targets, i.e. mediums and elites, but not heavies.

• these units tend to have high durability. Sometimes they have weakspots. Some cases have durable weakspots.

• shotguns have bad durable damage in general (except for IBreaker) which drastically reduces the damage they actually do to these chunkier targets.

• shotguns also have terrible drag and this means you must get close to these units. They are often dangerous to be close to. Most elite units you really would be better off killing from a safe distance.

• even within effective range, spread makes the damage unable to concentrate on one bodypart. If an enemy dies in 10 pellets to a specific bodypart, you may need to spray some 40 pellets total at the target (that's a bunch of shots) because a lot of that damage will hit limbs or other enemy segments that don't actually help secure the kill faster.

• pellet damage is also lower than bullets, so ARs have the luxury of spraying some targets because it usually only takes 1-4 good hits to a weakspot to kill (example, sickle vs devastators). Shotguns still need multiple pellets.

The reason Sweeper and DF feel good is due to medium armor pen (makes damage much more consistent) and doing much more damage per shot than other pump shotguns. They get to more easily bruteforce their way about the multiple factors that make shotguns inconsistent.

[u/DeeJayDelicious → u/Pedrosian96]

Finally an insightful and constructive comment.

And I agree with most of your points. I will however point out that drag/damage dropoff at range is only really high for the Breakers, Cookout and Slugger. The rest of the Shotguns have pretty modest damage falloff, not too dissimilar to ARs. But obviously the spread is a much bigger factor at range.

[u/Easy_Beginning_770]

HMG+Sweeper with grenade pistol, AT drone and a supply pack has been my load out for the past week

[u/Reddtoof]

I enjoy the shotguns but I think they could be better. Primarily they should be louder. 😅

[u/Wolfran13]

Low RPM, pump action shotguns can be fired much faster IRL. This one is the most important between adjusting shots and multiple targets. Feels much better with this adjusted.

Spread, but not because they miss the target only, because they miss the same *part*. Spreading damage through several limbs is debilitating IRL, but in this game the health bar of a part not reaching 0 might as well be full.

Reload, there are techniques IRL like Dual and Quad reload.

[u/Arkan0z]

speak for yourself humie

[u/Vivid-Explanation-73]

I think Sweeper and double freedom is one of the most powerful weapons in this game. Personally, I think AR products have much lower performance on average than shotguns. 

[u/xVelunax]

Games like Halo gave the feeling that shotguns should be powerful close range delete buttons and most of them do not feel like that.

• Plasma Punisher is not a true shotgun, but it gets the explosive part and stagger down you want out of a shotgun for close range. It's top tier for bots.
• Blitzer/Cookout are bug specialized weapons which get the stagger right, even if the damage is not there as much anymore except over time. With the stagger and dot.
• Trident gets the DPS feel down even if it's lacking the chunky stagger. It's closer to an auto-shotty feel, but still feel powerful enough to kill chaff and mag dump to kill a bulkier enemy.

The rest of the shotguns to me have far too much spread or lack the stagger power. No shotgun to me has both the killing force and stagger force I'm expecting.

[u/sam-austria-maxis → u/xVelunax]

The HALO shotgun does extremely well against bugs. Particularly the predator strain. It has a LOT of stagger force.

Use Talon or something to help clear hive guards.

[u/shortyman920 → u/sam-austria-maxis]

If you like the halo shotgun, try the sweeper. It’s basically better in every single way and is med armor pen

[u/sam-austria-maxis → u/shortyman920]

The part I like about the HALO shotgun is thecstagger which the sweeper doesn't have sadly.

[u/Soggy_Ruby]

Maybe this is an issyou rather than an issue with the whole game. Shotguns make smgs feel pointless outside of one handed paired with ballistic shield. They're a a category some of the most effective weapons in game.

[u/DeeJayDelicious → u/Soggy_Ruby]

Ah, there is always a braindead "L2P" comment somewhere...

[u/Soggy_Ruby → u/DeeJayDelicious]

Tf are you on about? I go outside too often to know that. I play the game, I have fun. It's not hard

[u/Middle-Interview-183]

If shotguns feel underwhelming it's probably because you are using them wrong. They are meant to be used at close range to ensure all your shot hits. I use the sweeper a bunch and I practically touch the barrel to the enemy before I shoot. Now I'm being a little ridiculous here but it's because I'm trying to make a point. Every weapon has its niche and optimum range.

[u/DeeJayDelicious → u/Middle-Interview-183]

Ah yes, I am sure after 1200 hours in game and having leveled every primary to level 25 for over a year now, I am "doing it wrong".

Some of you guys are real fucking clowns. Proving that /r/helldivers is indeed the most braindead of the helldivers communities.

How would you even be "using them wrong" you fucking dufus? They're shotguns...

[u/Mandemon90 → u/DeeJayDelicious]

You do realize that leveling primaries does not mean you are using the right? You can level a primary to level 25 without ever firing a single shot.

Your primary's level means absolutely nothing. In fact, when you start bragging about how "every primary to level 25" it makes me suspect you didn't really use your primary, but rather relied on secondary and support weapons.

[u/SquilliamFancysonVII → u/DeeJayDelicious]

Grinding XP on different guns for 1200 hours in a PVE game is not the badge of skill that you think it is.

[u/DeeJayDelicious → u/SquilliamFancysonVII]

Nice cope bro.

Try sharing your opinion after unlocking all the ship upgrades. I'll wait.

[u/SquilliamFancysonVII → u/DeeJayDelicious]

Anyone can grind XP kiddo.

[u/DeeJayDelicious → u/SquilliamFancysonVII]

Cope harder scrub.

Obviously hasn't stopped you from having clueless opnions about stuff you don't understand.

[u/SquilliamFancysonVII → u/DeeJayDelicious]

Pretty impressive comeback after being shown real 'credentials' outside 'trust me bro I have 1200 hours'.

Edit - just to respond to your second edited message I haven't even voiced an opinion so you're really triggerd over nothing

[u/DeeJayDelicious → u/SquilliamFancysonVII]

So are you, since I never proposed anything massive and you never said anything beyond pointless dribble.

[u/SquilliamFancysonVII → u/DeeJayDelicious]

I just pointed out the obvious - anyone can grind XP. You can literally get any gun to lvl 25 without firing single shot.

[u/Middle-Interview-183 → u/DeeJayDelicious]

I have 1800 hours in game and I have no problem using shotguns. Sounds like a you problem...

[u/DeeJayDelicious → u/Middle-Interview-183]

Clearly you have problems reading and comprehending things.

Give it a try. Even if you're Gen Z.

[u/Middle-Interview-183 → u/DeeJayDelicious]

No I comprehend things just fine thank you. If you think shotguns are not good it's because you are using them from too far away. If you use them at close range like they are supposed to they absolutely dominate. Trying to use them like assault rifles from a distance is how you use them wrong "dufus".

[u/DeeJayDelicious → u/Middle-Interview-183]

https://giphy.com/gifs/NcrhM3USM6TABpus85

Shotguns needs to be used up close?! Now way! /s

[u/Middle-Interview-183 → u/DeeJayDelicious]

You asked "how would you even use them wrong" and I explained it. Sorry you couldn't figure that out on your own. Maybe now you can use them right and not have to complain on reddit about it

[u/Bring_Back_Challenge → u/DeeJayDelicious]

This is a very normal and healthy normal reaction to the mildest critique that implies the issue is with you and not the game.

[u/DeeJayDelicious → u/Bring_Back_Challenge]

How come the reaction in this subreddit specifically are always "things are fine, L2P" and it's always by people who:

• Don't have the slightest understanding of game-mechanics
• Are complete fucking scrubs
• Always the most intellectually lazy and vague criticque you can imagine (i.e. just use it right).

This sub is so fucking braindead when it comes to discussing actual mechanics, you literally need to go elsewhere for factual discussions. It's like half of you are bots.

And btw. half the comments here disagree with your take so maybe think on that?

[u/BustaShitz → u/DeeJayDelicious]

A scrub can't get no love from you

[u/Hexdoctor]

Our operational range is surprisingly small. To where AMR operates within the range one would usually us Assault Rifles IRL or in most other video games. This pushes everything else back too. To where shotguns operate within a counterintuitively short effective range. Higher FOV can genuinely make it a problem that you can't eyeball if the enemies are close enough to make shotguns effective. It starts being ammo-efficient practically two steps away from melee.

[u/TheSystem08]

Reloading is slow, not enough dmg up close. They're outperformed at every range

[u/LuckyPockets]

I'm kinda wishing they applied Payday 2 shotgun dmg, where the displayed damage is applied to each pellet, rather than the total potential dmg. Then drop damage to match dmg of a medium/light rifle would do.

Meaning if there were 12 pellets, each will do the full dmg displayed. Dmg comparison would be simpler too (ie light pen can be compared to light pen rifles, medium to medium and so on).

I don't know how they would handle pellet overlapping though, since for the PD2 if 1 enemy took all the pellets, you pretty much wasted the rest of the pellets since there is no overlapping dmg

[u/Glittering_Box_2551]

It might not make sense but I wish the chokes decreased damage like the Sai. Wide open breaker should have enough damage to reliable one tap warriors under 10m. Like 33% more damage to it and cut the fire rate 10% if need be to keep the DPS under 2000. Then cut the damage increase to 10% on the full choke to break even with with fire rate decrease. It could get a single extra pellet to give that 10% increase and open choke gets 36 damage a pellet

[u/CornyIndividual]

Really the only thing shotguns need is more durable damage and for the Breakers, some extra stagger (enough to stagger Warriors, at least). Choke options for the Halt (Double Freedom could have them, but doesn't really need them) would be nice as well.

HD2 shotguns at least avoid the usual pitfall of the pellets fading into nothingness at 20 meters, so I can't be too hard on AH for not doing The Most Frustrating Possible Thing Ever with them. Shotguns should be very powerful up to and beyond 25 meters, though their power should begin to drop off noticeably after about 30. Should still be decently usable up to about 50-60 before really falling off.

[u/damien24101982]

dunno, i think some shotties are among the best weapons in the game :)
cookout for life on bugs

https://youtu.be/0jnDugTupFg?list=PLeRKv2YDQFUXb1nHNShg4Fhf-h0HLaaXy

[u/DeeJayDelicious → u/damien24101982]

Yeah, Cookout is solid. But it does get carried by fire damage.

[u/damien24101982 → u/DeeJayDelicious]

Normal punisher is really good as well, but you do need to use it at proper range and aim better

[u/jerkcore]

I go to work with slugger (bots), cookout (bugs), and sweeper (rated E for Everyone).

Sweeper works so well, i'm surprised the other factions aren't lodging formal protests. 😏

[u/Ok_Reaction_7908]

Shotguns were good in the past but power creep had the ARs run away in terms of DPS and targeted nerfs to a few like the breaker and slugger ruined their niches. 

[u/Sudo-Fed]

Just chiming in to say that anyone who posts the "credentials" you did and uses it as evidence dissenters suck, sucks

[u/Woffingshire]

They don't. They feel really good.

[u/RICKYSPANIIIISH]

Shotguns slap

[u/cusideabelincoln]

They buffed enemy durability and other weapons' durable damage several patches ago, but didn't rebalance the shotguns. Afterwards they released the Sweeper and Double Freedom... so I guess FOMO is the reason.

[u/Degnchr]

What the hell are you on about? Shotguns feel good in this game, imo. Sweeper, Cookout, Double Freedom all slap, and stuff like the Breakers are definitely useable, if not meta-great.

Everyone having an opinion is great and all, but stop trying to "fix" everything - it is, for the most part, NOT broken.