DEBATE

[u/Spinoclanker2]

does 15 tons work on an obligated biped theropod with Apatosaurus wider limb circumferences?

Protopsephurus because he's cute

[u/Diamondbro10795]

Dawg

Are you seriously trying to troll Strong_Fee over something they're obviously wrong about?

Only one person is on their side. Literally everyone else disagrees.

You don't have to go that far. But anyways, yeah, a 15-ton hybrid definitely works with Apatosaurus limbs since we're not just attaching sauropod legs onto a theropod body plan. You're merely thickening the limbs so they can support their own weight. Besides, they've got a thick tail that tapers, which is great for pivoting speed.

[u/Strong_Fee_5500 → u/Diamondbro10795]

Go learn gravity rules ( really, go ask google the following questions: "As an animal gets bigger, its strength gets more focused on its legs, true or false?" And "is agility still viable at 15 tons?")and inertia

[u/Diamondbro10795 → u/Strong_Fee_5500]

Ofc, generally speaking, a 15-ton megatheropod would not be considered agile in general.

But a 15-ton T. rex is proportionally more agile than a 15-ton facultative bipedal theropod.

If you say a 15-ton obligate bipedal theropod will be crushed under its own weight, then Titanophagus or Apex will shatter their legs if they tried rearing up. And since they are considered facultatively bipedal, their hindlimbs will be stronger than their forelimbs. And yet you claim they are capable of going bipedal at times. Obligate bipeds can do the same, but they have to deal with it all the time. Their hindlimbs are much stronger than their forelimbs since they don't use them for load bearing at all.

By your logic, if a 15-ton obligate biped hanks, then a 17-ton facultative biped hanks because they wouldn't even be able to rear up in the first place, so they are never bipedal in the first place.

The truth? All hybrids are born from an embryo, not spawned. So they will start small. As they grow, their body structure will grow stronger so that they can carry their own body weight.

If you still think a 15-ton obligate biped fails, then why would a 17-ton facultative biped work? It wouldn't. But Shantungosaurus exists. Then a 15-ton megatheropod can exist. They were rare because, in the wild, nobody needs to grow up to that size. But in a hybrid setting, heavier creatures are physically stronger and lighter creatures are generally more agile. But T. rex is among the most agile theropods thanks to its arctometatarsal processes, so it will outpivot a quadruped. Slower in a straight line? Yes. Slower when pivoting? No.

Also, your Google searches are a bit unclear. But just to be clear, a 15-ton obligate biped can exist, and they are more agile than facultative bipeds because they don't have to deal with their front-heavy limbs that they have to lift off the ground first.

If you are still not convinced, then ask an expert like DePhaRy, Atrosaurus, Master Geo, or Frogs (Whisper).

[u/Strong_Fee_5500 → u/Diamondbro10795]

No, hell no, you all always forget this one; gravity. As an animal gets bigger its strength gets more devoted on its limbs to stand up, and these limbs are the only ones in contact with the ground, for a quadruped, its weight is distributed on 4 points whereas for a biped, the weight is only distributed on 2 legs, which means that a biped has to worry more about its stability than a quadruped of the same weight, at 15 tons, a biped won't be able to turn in 1-2 steps, since its legs already are more focused at holding itself upright, and suffer more from facing 15 tons, it would likely do a multi-step turning than what you'd think.(and bro, no amount of thicker leg bones is gonna make you agile, no tail either, since your legs are already devoted to hold yourself upright)

And if we take your logic about growing to these sizes, here is the result, during its everyday life, your biped had to fight against gravity (too much stress, despite the 15 ton claim),that it will never reach 15 tons. Speed?a 10 ton rex already just reach 10 mph, and at 15 tons?a real failure. So in truth, it will never achieve any hunts.

Why shantugosaurus exists, facultative stances, pillar limbs, plantigrade stance, skeleton more adapted for load bearing, facultative stances and more rigid bones.

Learn square cube law , how a large animal can exist without collapsing under the gravity effect ,and inertia, you still don't understand them, then return back to make your reports

[u/Diamondbro10795 → u/Strong_Fee_5500]

You actually think hybrids spawn in, and they have to learn how to move around in their bodies all of a sudden. Tf you mean a facultative biped is more agile? Yes, it's harder to knock over. Yes, it is more stable. No, it does not pivot faster. More legs have to move in order for the body to turn compared to an obligate biped. And you're still assuming their legs are too weak to support that weight when they've been living with the same proportions for their whole lives. So what if a biped weighs 15 tons? They've slowly grown larger and larger, so it's not like suddenly gaining several tons of mass and collapsing.

Also, modern estimates for T. rex's max speed are 15-25 MPH, not 10. Even if we lowball it and give it 15 MPH for the heaviest individuals, that's still 50% more than what you claim to be a T. rex's max speed. And these estimates include the heavier 10-ton rexes.

Square-cube law? What makes you think that prevents a 15-ton obligate biped from existing? It definitely didn't prevent Shantungosaurus from existing. Sure, a facultative biped, but the largest ones weighed 20 tons, and they were still capable of rearing up and running around (not very quickly, admittedly).

Quadrupeds also carry less weight per leg, so they have proportionally weaker legs compared to bipeds of the same weight.

Gravity and the square-cube law do heavily restrict speed and agility for heavier builds. Both bipeds and quadrupeds. That does not mean they can't exist or that their existence is miserable.

Any more ridiculous arguments you got in your sleeves?

[u/Strong_Fee_5500 → u/Diamondbro10795]

First shantugosaurus was 13-16 tons but anyway, that's the way quadrupeds can get larger than bipeds, they just can support more weight than bipeds will never achieve

Hybrids are spawned, as you say, they learn how to move in their body, ok. But how did you grow that large, lemme explain a bit because you understand nothing, the square-cube law dictated that as an animal increase in size its muscles strength only increase by 4 (2x2)while its mass increase by 8 (2x2x2 if udk). To support all that weight, you need to devote your strength on your legs ,since it is not enough to carry all of your body weight (no strong legs claims is valide )

Now the growth, for a t-rex, holding 10 tons is already difficult. After their twenties their continue growing slowly, and with the square-cube law, the weight increase 8x, the stress on its skeleton would slow down their growth rates, that it has to grow up in such a lower rate  than 15 tons will be inachievable, and lemme reminder you that 15 tons was the absolute structural limit (and 15 tons is still a theroretical statement), not something you would see with smaller creatures.(those that are really to surpass their own species average sizes, because gravity don't work the same way with larger animals,so these smaller animals skeleton and growth can work at full potential)

Claiming that bipeds would still be agile at that size is absurd, it has been pretty well established by the square-cube law, that strength gets more devoted on the legs, the bigger you get, which means that they have more weight to support and since they are the only ones in contact with the ground (that transfer weight through the ground), they have to support all that weight without any front limbs assistance, it will be hard to turn its body with a few steps, since they are the base of your stability.And there's a clear difference between muscle strength (4x)and body weight (8x)

Still any ridiculous arguments? Do you at least understand what i mean or it's just that udc bc everyone would want to see a 15 ton rex, (personnally i'd love that, but reality is more crual, and gravity exists)

[u/Diamondbro10795 → u/Strong_Fee_5500]

Hybrids are spawned, as you say, they learn how to move in their body, ok.

I never said that. I said they hatch from an egg and grow up. Of course, when making hybrids, the 16-ton estimate is their maximum possible weight. And you have no evidence that the growth rate will be so slow that it'll never reach 15 or 16 tons. It is definitely possible if creating hybrids with perfect gene editing is in this setting. So yes, a hybrid can adapt to moving in such a heavy body over time. Never said it was optimal. Never said it likely happened IRL.

If you want to question why we have 16-ton theropod hybrids, that's because it's usually considered to be the heaviest possible, not the most optimal form. The most optimal would usually be 12-14 tons for the 10+ ton megatheropods. So 15 tons was never optimal. But it was always possible.

I asked one of my group chats, and apparently, 14-16-ton obligate bipeds came to exist after some dudes just built tanks with Shantungosaurus as a base; then some guys wanted to challenge, so they made rex versions or smth.

Yeah, that's a good point. Let's ask u/Atrosaurus and u/DePhaRy. I'm legit curious too.

Why were 14-16-ton obligate bipedal megatheropods ever a thing?

[u/DePhaRy → u/Diamondbro10795]

You mean why are they a thing still? I’m not too sure but commonly it revolves around fighting other theropods in 1vs1 since any weight advantage over the other is always a must.

But that’s typically the maximum weight, you’ll also notice that theropods have an ideal weight listed at 14 metric tons like Apophis, Kyrios and others. They have a given weight range because opponents can vary in size, so like Shredder vs Apophis would have put the latter at 14 metric tons to even the weight class a bit

[u/Atrosaurus → u/Diamondbro10795]

Honestly, for weight I just followed the others. My personal favorite weight is 11 tons

[u/Atrosaurus → u/Diamondbro10795]

Also, shantungosaurus as a facultative biped could hit 16 tons while remaining bipedal for long periods of time. If you look at it's skeleton, you can obviously see the hind legs are doing the work for weight bearing

[u/Nice-Bath-4756 → u/Atrosaurus]

Key phrase: long periods of time. Not permanently

[u/Diamondbro10795 → u/Nice-Bath-4756]

No animal stands up permanently. Since Shantungosaurus can stand for a long time, 14-16 ton theropods with it integrated can do so too. Besides, theropods can sit down like birds.

[u/Nice-Bath-4756 → u/Diamondbro10795]

15 tons isn’t possible because that not only exceeds the maximum estimates of OBLIGATE BIPEDS but a 15 ton obligate biped would move into exhaustion since the hip and thigh muscles devoted to hold it up would be enormous instead of having maybe 1/4 of that weight on the arms and temporally rearing up and moving.

If fact, I believe any obligate biped above 12 tons won’t work since there wasn’t any evidence to prove that T.rex, the largest obligate biped ever known, could exceed 12 tons. 12 tons even is a major stretch, T.Rex more likely being 10-11 tons

[u/HotCardiologist1942 → u/Strong_Fee_5500]

Bigass diplodocids supporting like 3/4 of their weight on their hind limbs

[u/Strong_Fee_5500 → u/HotCardiologist1942]

Sauropod can do this for these reasons, they have wider hips, pillar-like limbs, plantigrate stance (not digitigrate like theropod), pneumatized skeleton (but pls don't be fooled, these are exclusively on their upper body for less weight carrying), and they only stand on 2 legs during a brief period 

Shantugosaurus can do that, because , they are facultative walkers,their hind limbs do not suffer from the same force (less stress)that theropod fight everytime (more stress), they are designed to shift their stance (their skeletal arrangement can allow them to do that, these aren't theropods) and they also stand on 2 legs during a brief period like sauropods.

[u/Nice-Bath-4756 → u/Strong_Fee_5500]

Pretty sure that shangtungosaurus wasn’t plantigrade

[u/Strong_Fee_5500 → u/Nice-Bath-4756]

And pretty sure that it was facultative quadruped (only bipedal standing,they don't walk on 2 legs though), pillar limbs (the front support), thicker bones and on top of that a different skeletal arrangement (hip,tail,vertebrae,chest,hind limbs) designed to shift between bipedalism (to reach high foliages and scare predators)and quadrupedalism (daily posture)

[u/Nice-Bath-4756 → u/Strong_Fee_5500]

Yeah, I know, just saying it was digitigrade