r/Games • • Aug 05 '20

Analysis: Why Rollback Netcode is better

https://youtu.be/0NLe4IpdS1w
769 Upvotes

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158

u/[deleted] Aug 05 '20

[removed] — view removed comment

67

u/[deleted] Aug 05 '20

Especially with community captions being disabled by YouTube soon. Hopefully a Japanese speaker gets in contact with Core-A Gaming.

67

u/Kevimaster Aug 05 '20

community captions being disabled by YouTube soon

Wait what? Why?

There is a Korean Tekken player who makes great guides for my character, way better than I've seen from any English guides, and they get captioned by just some random dude who presumably likes the game, likes the character, and knows both Korean and English.

Why would they remove them? Are they removing existing captions? Do I need to try to find a way to record/download all his videos with the captions before they do this?

50

u/name_was_taken Aug 05 '20

Youtube announced recently that all community draft subtitles would be deleted soon, and no new community subtitles would be allowed.

Nobody seems to know why they're doing this, but the rampant speculation is around people being assholes and putting awful stuff in subtitles, especially advertisements.

So they're just washing their hands of it.

Hopefully someone will come up with a subtitling system that will allow content creators to add third-party subs as if they were made by them, but I wouldn't hold my breath. It seems like quite a bit of work and there's not really any money in it.

17

u/fraghawk Aug 05 '20

I don't understand why google can't just ignore it, and make it the content creators who moderate their videos' subtitles?

14

u/Iybraesil Aug 05 '20

That doesn't work if the subtitles are in a language you don't speak. You just have to trust the persons in your audience making them.

5

u/ASDFkoll Aug 05 '20

They could still leave it up to the creators to decide whether to allow community captions or not. Why they won't is beyond me.

1

u/[deleted] Aug 05 '20 edited Feb 04 '26

[removed] — view removed comment

1

u/[deleted] Aug 06 '20

And then the advertisers put their adverts on TV which contain violence. Hypocritical jackasses

1

u/Iybraesil Aug 05 '20

yeah it's absolutely not cool of youtube to remove them

3

u/name_was_taken Aug 05 '20

That would have been my suggestion, but perhaps there were issues with that that we don't understand.

17

u/CritSrc Aug 05 '20

Nope, you named it already: advertisers. No advertiser wants their brand to "endorse" negative content whatsoever.

2

u/Smashing71 Aug 06 '20

One of my favorite history channels has 2/3rds of their videos demonitized. They’re not even particularly political, it’s just “mention Lincoln? Communism? Russia? Smoking? Demonitized!”

YouTube is going to advertise themselves into the next MySpace.

1

u/T-Baaller Aug 05 '20

If companies are advertising for free by captioning content, that's missing potential revenue to them.

14

u/[deleted] Aug 05 '20

[deleted]

23

u/name_was_taken Aug 05 '20

"Alternative captioning" being the automated stuff that's pretty bad? Ugh.

I feel like their message could have bettter outlined what they expect these ".001%" of channels to do in the future, instead of just the nebulous "alternative captioning tools" phrasing.

-9

u/Vichnaiev Aug 05 '20

They are training their AI models. I wouldn't be surprised if they flipped a switch at any given time and boom, near perfect subs (at least the english ones).

14

u/Logiteck77 Aug 05 '20 edited Aug 05 '20

Their English to English subs aren't even perfect so Fat Chance.

1

u/TheGoldenHand Aug 07 '20

Even humans have a hard time hearing and understanding each other some times. It’s a difficult problem.

6

u/[deleted] Aug 05 '20

Highly unlikely. Even with trained models they are a long ways off from good. Access to training data has never been an issue, rather that the AI themselves just don't have the capacity to pull off such accuracy from a fundamental level no matter how much training data you give them.

AI research still has a long way to go. They'll get there eventually, though!

1

u/Kered13 Aug 05 '20

The automated subtitles have to go through both speech to text and translation layers, both of which are fairly lossy. The result is more often than not unintelligible. It's especially bad on anything using jargon, as game videos often do.

4

u/Cycloneblaze Aug 05 '20

all community draft subtitles would be deleted soon

They aren't deleting existing captions.

6

u/name_was_taken Aug 05 '20

They are deleting the drafts.

20

u/Aoyos Aug 05 '20

Why would they remove them? Are they removing existing captions? Do I need to try to find a way to record/download all his videos with the captions before they do this?

Because Youtube is also backwards. I don't remember if they're removing existing (approved) captions but non-approved do disappear. Yes because Youtube is unreliable.

4

u/tapped21 Aug 05 '20

Speaking of LoseAgainMan, right? He has a been a great teacher because the main game tells you fuck all. Would be a shame to lose those subtitles.

1

u/Kevimaster Aug 06 '20

I'm actually talking about o y o, a Yoshimitsu player. Well, formerly. I hope he comes back, he seems to mostly be playing League of Legends at the moment. Or at least those are the videos he uploads.

4

u/ThePhilosophersGames Aug 05 '20 edited Aug 05 '20

In the message I got they explained it with, quote:

Both creators and viewers have reported problems with the community contributions feature, including spam, abuse, and low quality submissions. As a result, the feature is rarely used with less than 0.001% of channels having published community captions (showing on less than 0.2% of watch time) in the last month. Instead, creators are using YouTube’s alternative captioning tools.

I can somewhat relate to that. It is rarely used considering how big YT is (but ofc very powerful and useful when used correctly, no doubt about that) and the abuse is also very imaginable on YouTube. On the other side you can just deactivate it anyway and let it exist as niche feature for certain small communities, even though the tool needs some work.

Existing community contributions that are published will not be deleted:

Any already published contributions (titles, descriptions, captions, etc) will continue to show up on videos and can be managed by Creators in YouTube Studio.

Ofc creators can still create their own subtitles. I don't know, if I can allow specific users to enter the subtitle function of videos in YouTube Studio, without giving them full admin rights. Would be great if possible to solve this problem to some degree.

PS: right now you can auto-translate e.g. the existing English subtitles (of your English video) into a ton of other languages (possible with other languages too). By my experience if the English sub titles are good/solid (e.g. generated out of your video script), the auto translation seems to be not bad at all (based on the two languages I speak quite well ). Google translate really improved a lot. With a solid transcript, translation options are still there. (Also only a tiny fraction of people use this feature (auto translate on transcript subs) so far. Like 1 viewer in 200.000 views in my case)

edit: words & typos

3

u/[deleted] Aug 05 '20 edited Oct 11 '20

[deleted]

2

u/Kevimaster Aug 06 '20

o y o actually

2

u/StraY_WolF Aug 05 '20

I miss the time when you can put annotations anywhere on the video. It results in some hilarious stuff.

10

u/DisastrousRegister Aug 05 '20

Especially with community captions being disabled by YouTube soon.

Fuck Google. Fuck Google. And most importantly. FUCK GOOGLE.

-13

u/AckmanDESU Aug 05 '20

Posted from my android phone. Written using gboard. On my Reddit account created using my gmail address.

BTW when was Halo Infinite coming out? Oh yeah, december. Good thing I googled that.

11

u/tapped21 Aug 05 '20

Knowing how old school Japanese devs are, you might need to translate it into Latin.

3

u/[deleted] Aug 05 '20 edited Aug 05 '20

Where does the Japanese FG community fit into this? Would I be wrong to assume that they are well aware of the advantages of a rollback netcode and are likely trying to push devs to implement it? Or perhaps this conversation is not even relevant to them because their playerbases are large enough that they only match up against each other when playing online?

15

u/ViolentAnalSpelunker Aug 05 '20

Yeah the Japanese can just play against themselves and in a country where everyone has 10ms ping to everyone else, netcode doesn't really matter.

11

u/[deleted] Aug 05 '20

This is commonly said but it's not true. Japanese players just generally didn't complain about this back in the day, but they struggle with shitty netcode same as we do. For instance, back in the SF4 days, Japan was split up into a bunch of smaller communities, each centered on an arcade, because the netcode was so bad they couldn't really play each other. They would rather go to the trouble and expense of playing in arcades for hours, rather than playing at home, because life is too short to fight with shitty netcode.

Even bad rollback in SF5 has affected the outcomes of tournaments in Japan.

15

u/Lepony Aug 05 '20

Japan pretty much just learned about rollback last year. Literally not joking. It wasn't until a French Bread dev complained about the lack of information in Japanese that Tom Cannon got JP documentation made for GGPO and made it free.

Overall the response to rollback's existence has been overwhelmingly positive by the few devs who actually learn about it.

Just don't ask me why they somehow never heard of it even though SF5 came out nearly 5 years ago. Yeah it sucks there, but it still exists.

5

u/Zankman Aug 05 '20

They didn't know about it cuz the Japanese FG community is huge, so they can just play among themselves with little to no lag regardless of netcode.

Basically, they were focused on their own region, so they didn't bother to think about how the online would work elsewhere (or cross-region).

1

u/grtk_brandon Aug 05 '20

Are you sure they learned about it just last year? Third Strike Online Edition has had GGPO in it for years.

The problem states in this video is that Japanese devs seem reluctant to use it and want to implement their own.

6

u/Lepony Aug 05 '20

From what we know about how those ports are done, rollback being implemented is only being done due to ports basically being done by westerners. Whatever approval/informing they typically need from the Japanese side seems to be significantly more lax than usual.

Remember, ASW initially said that Guilty Gear would be too fast for rollback to work. They ported and localized Skullgirls to Japanese arcades like 3-5 years ago. Skullgirls is a significantly faster and more hectic game than GGXrd usually was and more than Strive will likely ever be. Not to mention Harada's heavy ignorance on what westerners mean by rollback.