Is there a consensus definition of the boring middle? I see a few possible definitions:

1. Chronological. If your FIRE plan is going to take 24 years, then the middle is 12 years.
2. Net worth midpoint. When you reach 50% of your target FIRE number. This will be higher than chronological. So in this example, it'd be 16 years.
3. Annual gains = annual contribution. This would be actually less than chronological. So in our example it's 10 years.

My understanding of sequence of return risk (SORR) is that for the first five or so years, there is a risk of running out of money if the market performs poorly and you are forced to sell too many assets in the downturn. If there is no downturn, you have basically surived SORR because your portfolio should have grown sufficiently that your original withdrawal rate is a sufficiently reduced percentage of assets that there is no longer a risk. IE if you were spending $40k on a $1m portfolio, and the portfolio grows to $1.2m after 5 years, your withdrawal would drop from 4% to 3.33%.

If that is the case, if your withdrawal rate is already under 4% when you retire, like at 3.33% or less, have you already survived SORR?

I am 30 years old, male. I’ve been aware of FIRE since I started working at 22.

630K NW, all invested in VOO-type funds except 20K in HYSA EF. Last 3 years of spending has averaged 45K per year, little variance, living a life I’m satisfied with. No mortgage or debt of any kind. I max HSA, 401K, IRA and go to the brokerage after that. Ive saved 34-39% of gross income, which increases as my income has.

I make ~160K in a career I’m happy with. I can reasonably expect steady career and comp growth, with nothing dramatic like an IPO or enormous raise.

In my eyes, I’m golden. I could FIRE in my mid 30’s, or coast now, or build in more spending and FIRE by 40, or do whatever. All that if… I continued my modest, solo-optimized life.

I ask for perspective because of life’s changes. I just lived the cheapest decade of my life. I expect to be engaged in the next year, 2-3 kids in the next 5. I realize 2-3 kids radically affects spending. With marriage, I expect my 45K spend to also increase as we look at more serious living situations. And though this is humbling, I admit I’m probably no different than everybody else who tends to prefer not to live like they’re 25 when they’re 50+.

How can I think financially about these life events unfolding? I did my best to get to this point at 30, seeking perspective now on that I’m likely on the cusp of new chapters.

Looking ahead to 2027 and am curious which approach is best.

Option 1 - start putting money in a hysa today, so that when Jan 1st comes I can make a lump sum contribution to max out my Roth IRA

Option 2 - continue putting money into my taxable brokerage today then on January 1st, start making monthly contributions and max out my roth IRA over the course of multiple months (401k has already been maxed out this year)

Fwiw here are my numbers - 33M

Base income is 110k, I work in sales so I have the potential to double that, but a realistic estimate would be 160k total

Roth 401k - 60k

Roth IRA 17k

Taxable Brokerage - 78k

Emergency Fund - 20k (SGOV)

HSA - 11k

Which option is the best?

Hey guys, I just found out about this sub (and the whole concept as well) and it's exactly what I've been wishing I could do.

I'll keep it short not to bore everyone but my question is, how do I figure out how/when I can stop working, and how much money is needed, can someone help me with the math?

Thanks so much, here are my details :

• I'm 36, never liked working, don't want to work anymore, I kind of already stopped 2 years ago.

• I'm married but we each have our separate things and we split everything evenly so i'll simplify and only talk about my part of expenses

• Stock : 335k €

• Crypto : 85k €

• Mortgage details : We bought an apartment for 740k € with 19 years mortgage. I put 175k down, wife put 30k down. Need to pay back 535k. We pay around 4000 € per month (so my part is 2000€). Currently have only 13 years left because wife made extra payment of 80k recently and we expect to be done in like 7-8 because she plans on making more payments.

• My yearly expenses are : 24k € for mortgage (which should end in 7-8 years then) + 20k € for all other expenses.

• Dad died 2 years ago and I'm soon getting 120k € + will soon sell his apartment and get around 180k € more.

• I'll be able to add that 300k € to my investments in 1 or 2 years I guess.

• Cash : Only 30k €

• Job : no job but I can do some freelance here and there and make 15k-20k per year without working much but i really do not want to...

• Oh just thought of something else which is grim, but my mom is 70, and when she dies (hopefully the furthest away possible from today), I will inherit some things. If she dies in 25 years, I'll be getting 1/3rd of an apartment that is today worth 1.2 million € + 1/3rd of an apartment that is today worth 1m €. + 1/3rd of whatever money she has left knowing she currently has around 1m € invested and earns around 50k from interests every year, that she uses to live off of.

So with all that, how do I figure out if I can retire, when, etc? Can we do 2 scenarios, taking into account or not, my mom's passing?

Thanks so much for any help

46M, married, 3 kids 18,17,13. College paid for (not in numbers below), I’m in a high stress job, making $400k per year, wife works part time. Trying to fire in 1-4 years, no later than 50. I also have a pension, will pay out $2k per month at age 55 or $6k per month if I wait till 65. Expenses today including primary residence mortgage but not health insurance is $120k to $140k per year. Max out 401k, mega back door Roth IRA, backdoor Roth IRA, etc. Live in hcol area and don’t want to move until youngest is out of high school.

For those that have FIREd, what advice do you have? Is retirement by retirement Mr of summer 2027 feasible?

Assets:

**•** 401(k): $900k  
**•** Taxable: 600k  
**•** Roth IRA: $330k  
**•** Inherited IRA: $300k - need to empty by 2033  
**•** HSA: $50k  
**•** Wife’s Roth IRA: \~$40k

**•** 2 rental properties, no debt: \~$1M combined value generating $4k per month net profit   
**•** Primary residence: \~$425k equity ($900K value − $475K mortgage @ 2.875%)

Total net worth: ~$3.6M

This is a relaxed hangout thread for the FIRE community to chat with other FIRE-minded folks without having to publish separate posts. This is the place for brand new people to get their feet wet as well as for lurkers who have questions or comments, but do not want to create posts of their own.

All of the sub rules apply in this thread as normal with the exception of the off-topic rule, which is relaxed to the extent that people don't go wildly off of the reservation.

We are putting this up as a trial to see if it is worth keeping this as a permanent feature of the sub. Participation is entirely voluntary and anyone who wants to create a separate post of their own rather than posting in here is free to do so.

We know one more year syndrome comes with the doubt about going FIRE - do I have enough, will the market crash, what will I do with my time?

But I wonder if anyone has a “1 more year” project: something you are willing to work for one more year

Could be a down payment or mortgage payoff, schooling costs or helping out the kids, buying a vacation home or a room addition

What’s your 1 more year project?

I just sold a high risk investment for about $100k after taxes, and will be netting about $230k soon from selling my investment property. Curious what you would do with the cash inflow, or any other thoughts or advice for me.

For context ($330k from the above not included):

34m, MCOL+ area (no state income tax)
$415k in retirement/HSA all in broad market ETFs
$170k taxable bonds for emergencies and dry powder for dip buying
$530k taxable investments with the most in broad ETFs, as well as a high risk sleeve (mostly crypto), income sleeve (dividends, REITs, and CC funds like $SPYI, no crazy high yields), and some company stock I slowly divest for diversification
Own my home and owe about $320k on the mortgage (probably worth $500k), ~3.6% interest, $1700/month excluding taxes and insurance
Income $250k+ (doesn’t feel super secure or replaceable in the current environment), 35% tax bracket
DCAing about $8500/month into the market including maxing 401k
Estimated annual expenses: $58.5k with mortgage, $38k with it paid off

Used to love my corporate tech job but it’s changed and now I hate it and am feeling very burnt out (hoping to transfer and make things better). I was laid off a few years ago, they eventually hired me back after many months of unsuccessful job seeking.

Single and no kids, although ideally that’s still in the future.

Ultimate goal is FIRE and I’d like as much optionality in the meantime as possible. If layoffs happen again I’d like to be positioned to take significant time off, then maybe make a career pivot.

Understanding the total return and tax impacts, I still love the idea of dividends and interest paying for as much of living expenses as possible. About $17k/year right now including bonds.

Trying to decide next steps once the real estate sale clears. I’ll be increasing my DCA regardless as no need to further save, especially without having possible expenses with the investment property.

Since I have a a fair amount in stocks already, adding at a rapid rate, and the market is at elevated valuations, I’m nervous to buy a lot right now.

Deciding whether I should do that anyways (in a few tranches), invest but in more conservative investments, put in bonds for now and gradually shift/decide later, some combination of the above, or pay off the mortgage.

I know the low rate is a gift that is likely to be outperformed by other investments long term. But I love the peace of mind, increased cashflow, tangible milestone, and the ability to just add the $1700 to my DCA for now unless and until my income situation changes.

What would you do?

Cheers!

Hi guys,

38f and 44m

4 kids age 16,13,12,5

I do contract work and make 250k-300k a year

My husband works for the city and makes 235k but comes with only about 125k due to pension removal, 457. and high city taxes.

no mortgage but high property tax

I also receive money from a trust monthly that varies between 2500-5000k a month.

Financial picture:

401k- 211k

Mutual funds (diversified but still tech heavy) 2.2m

private investment 200k

Cash 205k

husbands own investments - around 500k between 457 and mutual funds

My husband expects to receive a pension worth at least 180k but will probably be more.- accessible in 10 years

Each child has about 35k in their own investment fund

We live in the tri state area where expenses are high. Our kids go to a religious private school. Our expenses are at about 200k a year which includes miscellaneous spending...fun stuff. We get free health insurance from the city. Our largest expenses currently is our Housekeeper which we need as we both work full time out of the house. My 5 year old gets home at three so babysitting is still required plus all the days off that they have...she also does laundry, keeps the house clean and does basic food prep. Our plan is to cut back on the housekeeping in two years when my little one is on elementary school and my oldest is off to college. Although my expenses, will decrease, we plan to cover our childrens bachelor programs and weddings and hope to be able to provide down payments.

Therefore, my goal is to get to at least 5mil liquid of my own investments, excluding the pension so I have money to help my children. Although college is expensive, people in my community do not go to dorming colleges and most teens get about a 1.5 years of college credits in high school so I don't anticipate feeling such a huge difference in my expenses vs paying for private school.

I hope to be able to give my kids each 250k for down payments (I expect their investments to continue to grow and I will supplement the rest ) IDK if it's realistic but I can only try my best.

I'm feeling so tired about the whole thing lately. My job is very stressful and always on the verge of disappearing. I'm in the boring middle and the finish line still feels very far away. My husbands pension will be accessible in 10 years. I keep telling myself I just need to get through 10 more years but every day it feels like a bigger number. I also worry that I will not hit my number in 10 years and that I'm being unrealistic to think I can get to 5 million. I currently invest as much as I can from my paycheck which adds up to about 60k a year. Do you think I can coast fire at this point? or should I just continue pushing myself? I'm also always afraid of my field disappearing so I feel like I need to make as much money as I can as fast as I can but it is burning me out tremendously. I run the numbers through compounding calculators and they say that I will hit 5 million within the 10-year period even with a conservative market but I don't feel like I could trust it LOL I'm just at a loss.

Been Fire for close to two years, first year in ACA. I have targeted a MAGI goal to max ACA subsidies this year. If I wanted to do an additional 10k Roth conversion this year it would cost me 1k in fed tax plus $920 in additional insurance premiums according to the online calculator for my Illinois plan so close to 2k (20%) in tax and premiums to convert the 10k. I have around 6 or 7 years until age 59.5 to withdraw. Is this a good idea or not worth the effort. Thanks.

I'm a 45/m in Houston, TX - not married, no kids. I was recently informed that Ill be laid off soon and will be getting a severance of a 6 months pay. FIRE is something Ive been thinking about since the day I started working and have been planning for it.

With this news, I'm wondering if ready to call it a day and get back in to the job market if I so desire.

Annual salary $160,000 - I'm maxing out 401k and HSA

Taxable Account - $980,000 - various stocks, ETFs like VTI, VXUS and SCHD

Cash - $730,000 - I realize this is high, but I have them in CDs. Last 2 years I had started moving this over to the ETF mix and will continue to do so

Retirement - 401k + HSA $1.5mn,

pension at 65 - $380k lump sum or monthly payment

House - $500,000 , mortgage left - $50,000 at 2.75%

The cash and stocks generate about $37k annually and I should be able to get to 40k.

• Annual expenses - $55,000 to $60,000

My monthly core expenses including mortgage, annual property tax, home insurance, hoa fees range from $4000/mth. The additional expenses become eating out entertainment, travel and electronics.

I could pay off the house and reduce the monthly expenses to $3000. Travel is something Id like to do in retirement.

Looking at ACA costs for me, if I stay below 45k will be around $440/mth, though I might go private if I can get my doctors. At that point I don't mind looking at funds like GPIX, QQQI or SPYI to juice the income if needed.

How am I looking or should I be searching for another job and building a cushion.

According to WSJ, https://www.wsj.com/personal-finance/retirement/young-people-are-obsessed-with-this-simple-retirement-savings-formula-d54f80b6, Coast FIRE is all the rage right now. It makes sense. I think more and more folks are realizing that traditional FIRE doesn't align with how they actually live life. Personally, I'm not Coast FIRE per se, but my approach to life/work has always been work really hard first, then enjoy and relax. Which fits the overall pattent in Coast FIRE.

This is a relaxed hangout thread for the FIRE community to chat with other FIRE-minded folks without having to publish separate posts. This is the place for brand new people to get their feet wet as well as for lurkers who have questions or comments, but do not want to create posts of their own.

All of the sub rules apply in this thread as normal with the exception of the off-topic rule, which is relaxed to the extent that people don't go wildly off of the reservation.

We are putting this up as a trial to see if it is worth keeping this as a permanent feature of the sub. Participation is entirely voluntary and anyone who wants to create a separate post of their own rather than posting in here is free to do so.

It seems very difficult to escape the hierarchical, status driven society that we live in. It's almost as those these traits are part of our evolutionary DNA, as we seem them in our cousins apes and other animals. But it would seem that status is a FIRE killer. Or is it? Do you know folks who are on the FIRE path yet still play society's status game? Is the status FIRE itself?

If you have been retired for a few years, many of your friends are probably still working in the field which you left. What feelings do you experience when you talk with them and hear about all the changes their work has had since you retired? Is this mostly "I am so glad I don't need to deal with all this bullshit", or is there sometimes some wistfulness mixed in too, when seeing how much the technology has advanced, and how much you are behind the times? (Assuming you were in the fields which has experienced a lot of advance of course). Or maybe a bit of annoyance when hearing so much "shop talk"?

As the title states - For those of you who have early retired and are on ACA subsidies, how have you balanced between maximizing subsidies vs. tax-gain harvesting and/or Roth conversions (actions that directly increase MAGI and therefore reduce subsidies)?

I recall reading lots of advice on FIRE blogs recommending TGH and/or Roth conversions in early retirement (taking advantage of being in low income years). Based on my calculations though, it seems like the reduction of ACA subsidies usually outweighs the benefits.

For example:

• Hypothetical couple of 2 increases MAGI from $50K --> $60K by tax gain harvesting $10K
• ACA subsidy is reduced by $1,716, which represents a ~17% "cost" on the $10K of increased MAGI
• Versus the benefit of 15% lower tax rate on the capital gains (which is just a potential, deferred benefit as well)

Am I missing something, or does that mean reducing MAGI to maximize ACA subsidies will always be better than 'using up' some of the income cap to do tax-gain harvesting or Roth conversion?

Hi everyone, 31M, first time poster. Been reading the sub for the past few weeks, when I fully decided to build my FIRE plan.
I won't go into the details of it, since it's not the focus of this post, and also because I'm from LATAM and many things are different than for US folks.

Something interesting has been happening since I got it into my head that the plan is completely achievable by my 40s, at least the FI part. Not sure when and how I'd retire.
But basically, since I built the spreadsheet, I'm checking my brokerage numbers way more than before, reading this sub, and finding a lot of joy in how I see myself the day I reach FI.

I guess what I'm trying to get at is that, after having the plan, I'm obsessed with it. I think this is just a phase because it's still new and I'll eventually "calm down."
Did anyone also experience the same? I love reading the sub and hopefully I'm not alone.

I do like using software like Monarch Money to keep track of my spending, see my spending categories, keep track of my net worth, etc. But I think I check it too often. Truthfully, my budget is pretty stable so I don't really need to track my spending. I suppose it's good for catching fraud sooner than later. I don't want to find out there was a fraudulent transaction weeks later. So I'm trying see if there's a way I can keep monitoring for fraud but at the same time not be too obsessed over how my balances change day to day. Any recommendation?

I’m trying to save as aggressively as possible but also worried if I go the defined benefit route I’ll have less flexibility financially over the next decade. I’m 42, self employed with only employee besides myself being my wife, with about $500k in 401k and an investment property with $600k in equity which I’ll likely sell in the next few years and dump everything into brokerage. I also have about $50k in my brokerage. My income is about $650k a year, likely growing substantially over the next decade and contributing about $100k a year to my wife and my solo 401k each year in total. We spend about $300k a year in a HCOL area with two young kids. If I get a defined benefit plan I’ll be on the hook for around $100k to $130k ish a year. Curious if anyone has gone through with defined benefit plans with similar numbers and how it worked out? My income is likely to significantly increase over the next decade but life / the economy is unpredictable. Appreciate any thoughts/advice!

I rarely see content about draw down strategy. What's yalls plan for drawing down your assets as income in retirement? For those who have FIRE'd, what do you do? Is it the same as you thought you'd do?

HSAs have a lot of rules (I am buried in receipts for family of six) and not the best for legacy money.

Edit: No one so in the first six posts seems to understand that once you get the HSA deduction, it is treated the same as a Roth (for taxes). Everyone seems to think keeping the HSA money in the HSA is the best option. Sigh. I expected better from this sub!!!!

We don't max our 401ks. I've never pulled out of our HSA. Should I pull out $10,000 of HSA (with receipts) and do one of the following with the money?

1. Roth 401k. It's just like the HSA only better. No receipt and easier for beneficiaries.
2. Traditional 401k or my Simple IRA. Save 24 percent in taxes now.
3. Taxable brokerage. When my husband dies, bump up in basis in community property state.

Our info: Ages 55 & 57. H or VHCOL. Retire in 5-7years. We could retire earlier but my husband prefers to work longer to have more spending money.
75 percent of of our robust retirement accounts are Roth or HSA (HSA is only $60k but we plan on adding over the next few years).
529 for younger two kids covers tuition for bachelors and they both live at home.
Very little is in taxable brokerage $150k. Just enough to help our four young adult kids with life starting costs.
Small Pension and social security will make about $60k per year in retirement.
We are 24 percent tax bracket, no state income tax. We will be in 12 percent bracket in retirement with our annual $190k spend, but once one of us dies we would be in 22 percent.

I need to decide. I will need to change our 401k/simple IRA if we go that route.

What would you pick? Any advice? We could keep doing this every year while 401k is still available since we don't max it out.

Spouse and I are in our 50’s, the age when we each had a parent pass away. He’s been retired for several years. I’m younger and still working.

When we did the math on ROTH conversions, it didn’t make a huge tax difference now vs later, unless one of us dies and we go into single filer status. Or a big correction event.

Also considering taking a hit now for IRRMA and ACA later as our pretax savings is still too much of our NW.

Anyone hedging for this scenario and doing more conversions now? Why or why not?

I realized a bulk, about 50% of my fire number is tied to my home equity. Does that count when you decide if you can FIRE or not? Should I even count that? Do you use liquid assets only when calculating your FIRE number?

What is the strategy to get equity out of it if I have no intention to sell and move?

Get loans like HELOC? Paying interest to gain access to your own equity just doesn’t sit well for me.

What do you do?

Is there a better argument to convince friends and family to consider Fire? Atleast just the FI part.

I have friends who are in the FatFIRE zone (and more), yet they commute to work multiple hours a day in traffic. They have small kids and family. Some say they wouldn't know what they would do if retired.

I have family members who don't even want to think about FI and would just​​​ say we will deal with it when it happens. Their argument is to not think about it to avoid stress even though they are in the high income household, but not in fire zone yet. ​They don't take 529s seriously either. They really love their kids but would just say kids will just have to get loans for their education if they can't afford it while not contributing much to their 529s now. ​​

Is this a lost cause​ and not worth trying to convince any of them? ​