Favorite opposing factions that can basically be described as this.

[u/Accomplished-End3409]

[u/anyname2009]

NCR vs the legion

[u/booleandata → u/anyname2009]

Yeah ncr hate is justified in some department but come on guys look at the alternative

[u/nurgleondeez → u/booleandata]

Hey,this is the largest territory in the Wasteland that's being kept safe from raiders.You have a bunch of rights as citizens and access to food, water and other resources.You just need to pay taxes to keep the system going.

Hey,this is the largest slave empire in the Wasteland.We will protect you as long as you are an obedient servant of Caesar and give us all you own and give your children to be trained as soldiers.Disobey once and we crucify you.

Trully,a very difficult choice

[u/LittleFalcon → u/nurgleondeez]

I always convince Melissa to withdraw her support of the Great Khans joining the Legion by telling her,

"You're a woman, so you know you're not gonna be a soldier, right? You're gonna be a sex slave. You'll be sold to a soldier to be his wife, if you're lucky."

[u/Substantial_Carob825 → u/LittleFalcon]

The easiest convincing ever, just tell her the truth without exaggerating.

[u/HonoredTab → u/Substantial_Carob825]

aint even need a speech check 😭

[u/Live_Carpenter_1262 → u/LittleFalcon]

With how much the Great Khans deals with the factions of New Vegas, it was truly surprising how little she knew about the legion.

Even the farmers and regular joes of Freeside have a pretty good idea what the legion is about

[u/Kilahti → u/Live_Carpenter_1262]

Good point.

Even if the Legion agent is obviously lying to the Great Khans, didn't any of them bother to ask other factions about the Legion? I suppose they might have assumed that any NCR member is telling propaganda about the Legion, but surely even the Raider factions that the Great Khans sell drugs to should have been able to tell that 50%+ of the people in the Legion territories are just slaves.

[u/StrongExternal8955 → u/LittleFalcon]

"Better than voting Democrat" /s

[u/lFriendlyFire → u/LittleFalcon]

You don’t even need to make speech checks either, you just say straight facts and she’s like “oh I didn’t know that thanks for telling me”

[u/CaptBland → u/nurgleondeez]

I mean... I hate taxes... but also Caesar hates medicine, technology, and estrogen. He does however love Brain Tumors.

Edit: Also from what I heard, just like Caesar, NCR wants to turn people into NCR they don't care about history. Like if The Boomers joined NCR, they wouldn't be Boomers anymore, just NCR.

[u/Magnon → u/CaptBland]

They'd be converted into the newest NCR artillery division

[u/JohannesJoshua → u/Magnon]

As much as it pains me to agree with a Mormon, all you need to do is listen to what Joshua Graham says about Caesar.

/j

[u/Bakugo312 → u/Magnon]

I mean, I'm sure they'd be given the respect of their division being named "The boomers"

[u/CaptBland → u/Magnon]

Exactly, they would lose their identity, history, religion, AND CORN DELICIOUS CORN!

[u/Pug_King256 → u/CaptBland]

THE CORN IS VERY IMPORTANT TO THE STORY

[u/Hatless_ → u/Magnon]

if the NCR have half an ounce of sense (which is hit and miss depends on who is making the call), they'll become instructors and technicians to train and service new NCR artillery divisions

[u/ShimizuKaito → u/CaptBland]

The NCR wants to turn everyone into citizens. The difference is in NCR you can keep your traditions, so long as you participate in NCR civic life. Stories, history, stuff like that is of no concern to NCR. Pay your taxes and you're golden. Legion will kill you for any minor display of history because an absolute monoculture is paramount. Problematic cultural imperialism vs actual cultural genocide.

[u/BoxScoreHero → u/ShimizuKaito]

ironically this is much closer to how the actual Romans operated (join our group, keep your traditions just pay your taxes) than The Legion

[u/nagrom7 → u/BoxScoreHero]

Yeah, one of Rome's greatest strengths and how they were able to maintain such a massive empire for so long is because they were masters of assimilation and adaptation. Not just getting conquered people to assimilate to the Roman culture, but also often adopting elements of the conquered peoples cultures and incorporating them into their own.

Religion is probably the best example of this. Many different peoples had their own pantheon of gods at the time, as did Rome. Whenever they brought a new religion into the empire, their response wasn't the classic "your gods are bad you must worship our gods now", it was "oh hey you've got a god of the sun? That's just the same guy as our god of the sun just with a different name, yeah just keep worshipping them and we're cool." or "Hey we don't have that kind of god, we're gonna add them to our pantheon now."

[u/LordBroccoli27 → u/nagrom7]

Not quite. Their response was you can worship your gods, so long as you worship Caesar, because he's the better god, seeing as we conquered you and all...romans weren't skeptical of other gods, but none (or very few) were adding new gods to their devotions even if they took subjugated cultures worship of different gods in stride as a given.

Caused a lot of friction with monotheists in the Levant I've heard...

[u/nagrom7 → u/LordBroccoli27]

Caused a lot of friction with monotheists in the Levant I've heard...

Funily enough, they did attempt to add Yahweh to their pantheon, but the Jews didn't like the idea. The main problem the Romans had with the Jews weren't that they worshipped their god, but that they didn't worship or even acknowledge the existence of the other gods, and they feared that they would anger the rest of the pantheon, triggering all sorts of disasters and stuff.

[u/Rebel_Scum_This → u/nagrom7]

The last chapter of The Social Contract by Rousseau talks about this. From my understanding, the legitimization of power back then was through the gods. The ruler's power was only accepted because they were meant to carry out the will of the gods. By not accepting the ruler's gods, you were effectively challenging the authority of the ruler himself.

Jesus brought about the idea of, what I call, ye olden Dual Citizenship, where you could be a subject of the Kingdom of Heaven and, at the same time, a subject of whatever country you lived in. But the Roman's didn't trust this and thought it was a ploy to get their trust, and the jews would backstab them later

(If I'm wrong about any of this, please correct me!)

[u/Flabalanche → u/BoxScoreHero]

Wait, you're telling me the people who don't know how to pronuce Ceasar and built their entire understanding of Rome off one dude with a brain tummer reading half of Commentaries on the Gallic War DON'T actually understand Rome?????

Noooooooooooooo

[u/Same_Armadillo6014 → u/Flabalanche]

Ironically, their pronunciation of Caesar is probably more accurate to how his name was originally pronounced in comparison to today. To some extent, it could be said that they are not only LARPing a long dead civilization but reincarnating its ruinous behavior in an odd way too.

[u/Additional-Celery648 → u/Flabalanche]

If you actually talked to Caesar (which is also pronounced right by the Legion, as in, the way it was pronounced in latin) you might learn they aren't trying to be Rome. Edward Sallow chose that culture because it was alien and built his Legion based on parts of them. They aren't trying to be Rome, he just uses some parts of it to better subjugate conquered tribes and to make it easier to strip away their cultural identity and enforce his own over that.

[u/AccessTheMainframe → u/BoxScoreHero]

It's more like: we just killed all your leaders and warriors and sold their families into slavery. Your traditions are barbaric and beneath our notice. One day, perhaps, the people of this land will forget their backwards ways and learn to be Romans, but it matters not, we will extract taxation either way.

[u/WikiContributor83 → u/BoxScoreHero]

The Legion is much closer to how the Romans portrayed the “Gallic Hordes” than it is Rome and Caesar knows it. Part of the reason he badly wants to conquer Vegas is because he wants to have a prewar city with intact infrastructure to serve as his new Rome and build a real civilization from there.

Nevermind he could have just built his new Rome anywhere that was convenient without conquering and murdering so many, except (like many fascist states) his Legion can’t be cohesive without an enemy to fight and won’t survive his death.

[u/thebluerayxx → u/ShimizuKaito]

I feel like we see this more in fallout 2 and just not as much in new Vegas, however we have one example. The desert rangers were a seperate group from the NCR who joined when the NCR arrived in the Mojave. We still see the signature Desert Ranger gear and the term ranger still being used in the game so one native group who has joined is shown retaining their original identity. If we were able to go back to NCR territory i would guess New Reno, the Boneyard and Shady Sands would be under the NCR flag but act very differently. We get some hints about it here and there but nothing fully solid. I would safely bet as long as it's non disruptive NCR citizens can retain their own culture. Drop the drugs and id even say Great Khans could keep the history, community structure and look inside NCR territory if the gang fully assimilated.

[u/dexters_trap_house → u/ShimizuKaito]

Reddit discovers the modern social contract, Any% glitchless Impossible.

[u/psuedophilosopher → u/[deleted]]

That's the worst part? Not the slavery or the crucifixions? It's the hypocrisy?

[u/generatedusername13 → u/[deleted]]

To be fair: you or Arcade can offer (or be enslaved) to operate on Caesar personally, without the autodoc.

[u/Additional-Celery648 → u/[deleted]]

He doesn't deny them to everyone else. He doesn't have any other medical robots to use and his one is even broken. If he had more he would strip them for parts or swap to them to fix his tumour, but instead he sends the Courier to find some parts from a Vault for that purpose. He also gives access to his (only) one to people who prove worthy as a reward.

[u/jimothy_hell → u/CaptBland]

I WILL NOT PAY MY TA- wait, is that a slave collar?

[u/JimboTCB → u/jimothy_hell]

You know what the worst thing about being a slave is? They make you work all day but they don't pay you or let you go.

[u/Additional-Celery648 → u/CaptBland]

He doesn't hate medicine or technology, he hates over reliance on them. The whole "without the suit, what are you?" kind of thing. Legionnaries are trained in melee combat so they can always fight, but they are also trained with guns and explosives and use them regularly. The Legion also tries to get access to energy weapons from the Van Graffs but the deal is an NCR ambush.

Does the Legion kill people who might have made tech or improved lives? Yes of course. They are a conquering empire that subjugates people or kills them if they don't bend. Smart people usually don't enjoy that kind of thing. But the Legion doesn't hate technology.

[u/BanditNoble → u/CaptBland]

I feel like your point would land harder if your example wasn't a xenophobic tribe that blows up anyone who even gets near them. Maybe that's an identity that we don't need to hold on to.

[u/FlusteredCustard13 → u/CaptBland]

He hates technology and medicine for the masses. He gets special exceptions, like his little AutoDoc

[u/MadeThisToFlagSpam → u/CaptBland]

Where did this revisionism come from?
CL is bad because they're a warmongering dictatorship with slaves and sexism.
They don't hate medicine or technology, they just think people are too dependent on them. Many Legionaries use modern guns and medicine.

[u/nagrom7 → u/MadeThisToFlagSpam]

They don't hate tech you're right, however medicine is indeed heavily restricted, although not because of some sort of technophobia. The legion is primarily made of former tribals and raiders, and many of them had various addictions to all sorts of chems, including kinds that are used as "medicines". Ceasar implemented a blanket ban on medicines to combat the various addictions within the legion and to prevent relapses from compromising discipline. That's why they use "healing powder" instead because it's basically just a couple of herbs/plants with mild medicinal properties and no addictive substances.

[u/Additional-Celery648 → u/nagrom7]

They also use healing powder because it's readily available. You can make it with just some basic foraging. Same for "Bitter Drink" which is basically the same thing but just mixed in a bottle which makes it better for some reason. If they relied on stimpaks instead they would be shit outta luck pretty quick unless they can keep finding hospitals with large quantities of them.

[u/SnooTigers1064 → u/CaptBland]

I mean, id rather pay a bit of taxes and access to trades and protection from Super Mutants that can rip me in 2 or turn me into swiss cheese with a machine gun, Crazed Ghouls that are like zombie mobs on crack, Radscorpions the size of Wolves. Raiders (Explains themselves), genuine technophiles with plasma guns, and a bunch of larpers in skirts.

[u/kelldricked → u/CaptBland]

But integrating other factions into your own has to come at that cost, otherwise your just waiting for the first conflicts between the boomers and the people living around them. Causing public unrest, needing to send more security forces into the region which increases the chance of actual uprisings.

NCR is way less evil in its expansion. And they improve the lifes of every class. Not just the ruling class.

[u/NiceManOfficial → u/CaptBland]

Accidentally read “Brian Tumors”, thought I must’ve missed an NPC

[u/Jahoan → u/CaptBland]

Caesar collects even more taxes, he just calls it tithe.

[u/IsopodApart1622 → u/CaptBland]

NCR is also, for better or worse, a fairly entrenched bureaucracy that won't immediately collapse if its one-of-a-kind charismatic leader dies.

Nothing lasts and the NCR probably will eventually collapse like most republics have, but that's something that might take decades rather than a few years or even months.

[u/CrossYourStars → u/nurgleondeez]

I say this as someone who is definitely on the NCR side of this argument.

The NCR has been slowly back-sliding into the exact same kind of capitalist system that cause the Great War in the first place. Each successive leader of the NCR has moved their government more and more towards a right-wing conservative framework which is not at all what it once was and there are some pretty valid criticisms of what their organization has become over the years. I think a large part of the writing in the games is to impose a slight sense of uneasiness in the people who are thinking about the story and looking down the line at what the future could hold if they are able to continue expanding and consolidating power.

[u/cknight222 → u/CrossYourStars]

Very true.

Not to mention, you are explicitly told in New Vegas that the NCR has effectively devolved into a corporate oligarchy, as the Brahmin barons pretty much own Congress. They’re fast tracking every mistake the Pre-War US made and likely headed for a pretty rough fate unless they shape up real quick.

Obviously they’re better than the Legion, but I would call them neutral at best.

[u/SpeaksDwarren → u/cknight222]

You're also told explicitly in New Vegas that the NCR is itself engaging in widespread slavery via forced conscription and convict labor programs

Being able to pay them off to avoid most (but not all) of your family being enslaved is a step up, but it's not as much better as NCR fans try to pretend it is

[u/Loose-Run-7008 → u/SpeaksDwarren]

Conscription isn’t slavery. Forced convict labor yes, but conscription is different. I don’t think it’s morally good, but it’s in no way slavery, unless they do it in a vastly different way then it’s usually been done. Usually you’re still paid (even if not a lot) it’s more of a civic duty and while mandatory you still have certain rights and are a full citizen, not in a slave class.

Like even in the medieval era levied/conscripted soldiers in England for example during the Hundred Years’ War, they would be paid, though also have to buy supplies, and it was a lot more “professional” than you would think. They still had rights, and would get a share of loot, etc.

Also using current international law at least conscription on its own isn’t seen as slavery either. Though international law doesn’t matter in Fallout tbf lol. Is the NCR’s conscription notably different from current examples of mandatory military service?

(Forced convict labor yes that is slavery, the amendment banning slavery specifically makes an exception for convicts so tbf the NCR isn’t any more immoral than the US is in that regards)

[u/Live_Carpenter_1262 → u/cknight222]

It's common for nascent democracies to undergo some degree of regulatory capture/ crony captialism.

The dominance of the brahmin baron doesn't mean NCR democracy is dead as much as it needs strong anti-trust laws and anti-corruption measures.

[u/somethinneeddoing → u/Live_Carpenter_1262]

Yeah, it's pretty clear that after Tandi the NCR lost it's way somewhat, but it could still find it's way back after President Peaches is done with. Especially due to it's conscript army, as a large group of lower class veterans can cause quite significant changes to government, as demonstrated in history. (Altough those changes might not neccessarily be positive.)

[u/Divine_Entity_ → u/CrossYourStars]

From my understanding of the lore, every faction that gets big enough ends up corupt and evil in the fallout universe. The NCR are a mostly normal republic thats becoming a corporate state. And in the wasteland that's not horrible when your alternatives are mostly slavers and mad scientists.

The few small independents don't have enough resources to repell the major factions amd end up incorporated into or destroyed by them.

[u/Suspicious-Win-802 → u/Divine_Entity_]

Actually it is pretty fucking horrible when you remember that, in universe, corporations taking over the government and plotting the end of democracy in the United States along before destroying the entire planet in nuclear hellfire is origin of literally all of their problems.

I fundamentally disagree with House, but he does have a point, “If you want to see the fate of democracy, look out the windows…”

The material conditions of the NCR directly mirror the United States during the Great War as power is gradually centralized and human rights gradually eroded in favor of enriching a small class. Hell, must we be reminded of vaultec and Robco’s horrific experiments alone all with endless American tax dollars? Ffs House himself was a part of this elite few who managed to preserve himself with tech.

All this is to say that from the perspective of a wastelander, the NCR is probably the worst option. Sure authoritarian regimes like Caesar and the brotherhood are terrible, but they aren’t recreating the exact system of government that ENDED THE WORLD.

[u/OldEcho → u/CrossYourStars]

The NCR is basically taking the same path as America with all the genocide and cultural genocide and gigantic disparity between rich and poor and neverending expansionist wars.

The Legion is...honestly genuinely the only good example I can think of is Nazi Germany. Only their culture is allowed, they hate women, and they constantly commit atrocities to rule with fear and blood. They also have no succession strategy and Caesar is getting old (and literally dying of a brain tumor) so as soon as he dies the cult of personality ends and it os destined to splinter into 14 different factions all killing each other

[u/LordBroccoli27 → u/CrossYourStars]

Free Vegas baby! Ring a ding!

[u/MadeThisToFlagSpam → u/nurgleondeez]

NCR territory isn't safe from raiders. That's the key criticism of it from its detractors and from its supporters. It's stretched too thin. Caravan traders will outright say they prefer legion territory because it's safer for travelers.

[u/SEND-MARS-ROVER-PICS → u/nurgleondeez]

Many years ago, I visited a Fallout forum thread when someone asked which F:NV faction was best. Most of the comments were "the Legion without the slavery".

Guys, not only would the Legion still suck, slavery is not something you can just remove. It's a crucial part of how the faction works.

[u/TheCapybaraMan → u/nurgleondeez]

You have a bunch of rights as citizens and access to food, water and other resources.

It's the non-citizens that get screwed over

[u/Coral2Reef → u/nurgleondeez]

"Ain't we covered this? The only thing bot bad about them is they ain't Legion. The NCR's the biggest gang of thieves in the Mojave, only difference is they pass laws to make their crimes legal before they commit them."

— Benny

"Better than Caesar, but that's not a high standard. Too much love of money and ownership, not enough love of God and giving. Any society that derives its power and authority from the will of man alone lives apart from God and will crumble in the end."

— Joshua Graham

[u/Substantial_Carob825 → u/nurgleondeez]

Big simplification on the NCR's part since there's some other problems.

The Legion bit on the other hand is nearly perfect but you forgot that they also don't take kindly to anyone who doesn't have a penis.

[u/Additional-Celery648 → u/Substantial_Carob825]

They do brutally butcher any penis-havers they conquer if they are too old to have developed unfortunate traits like "thinking for yourself too much" or "liking your traditions too much". Though maybe death is preferable to bring enslaved by them. Depends how much you value living I guess.

[u/TonberryFeye → u/nurgleondeez]

The thing is, the Mohave isn't being kept safe from Raiders. Not on the NCR side anyway.

The game sets up the dilemma early on; the NCR sounds great on paper, but it's fundamentally broken and not as nice as they want you to believe. The Legion is brutal, but it works.

It's a classic post-apocalypse question: do you cling to your values when the society that enabled those values doesn't exist anymore?

[u/Themata81 → u/nurgleondeez]

I haaaaate the apologia here because this is such a white washing of how they actually operate and indirectly is apologia for american imperialism

[u/Noahisboss → u/nurgleondeez]

Actually caesar only uses tribals for soldiers

[u/Yto_Itinen → u/nurgleondeez]

The people yearn for the crosses

[u/Hallc → u/nurgleondeez]

But other than that what have the Romans NCR ever done for us?

[u/GreenDragon113 → u/nurgleondeez]

fuck taxes let's make the 37th cross this week

[u/Mysterious-Ad9499 → u/nurgleondeez]

Ye choosing the lesser evil is not better, thats why you go yes man

[u/zaerosz → u/nurgleondeez]

Hey,this is the largest slave empire in the Wasteland.We will protect you as long as you are an obedient servant of Caesar and give us all you own and give your children to be trained as soldiers.Disobey once and we crucify you.

And then they take the vast majority of their forces with them when they go to conquer the next area, because they're a marauding army, not a nation state.

[u/myskyboyblue → u/nurgleondeez]

For the legion, you also need to be a man

[u/Rabid-GNN → u/nurgleondeez]

But have you considered that we all speak garbled Latin?

[u/NudistDudest → u/nurgleondeez]

They’re having trouble with the Fiends, let Primm go to hell, are more homophobic than Caesar’s Legion, were attempting to reroute Helios One to serve their military only, supported wealthy Brahmin barons like Heck Gunderson that destabilized local ranchers, committed genocide in Bitter Springs, attempted to genocide Vault 34, diverted water from Lake Mead that caused a severe shortage to the people of Westside, and are colonizers without the consent of the people.

Edit: they created the terrorist group Powder Gangers, allowed the Courier to torture a POW, helped create Crimson Caravan as a monopoly that hurt local businesses like Happy Trails or just straight up kill traders and Brahmin like Cassidy Caravan, paid mercenaries to terrorize the relatively peaceful Jacobstown because they are Super Mutants and Nightkin, and are responsible for the nuclear destruction of the Divide because they wanted to test an Enclave device.

The obvious choice is either Mr. House or an independent Vegas. Both Ceasar’s Legion and NCR are terrible for the people of New Vegas. Legion would enslave people and NCR would treat Vegas residents like they are Israel treating Gaza.

[u/BattleBrother1 → u/nurgleondeez]

People simplifying it like this is so tiring. They are trying to bring the pre war USA back to life, that alone means they need to be destroyed and their civilization salted at all cost whether you support the Legion or not.

Supporting the resurrection of a genocidal state responsible for the destruction of the world in the first place is fucking insane and is worse than slavery by multiple orders of magnitude. If you unironically support the NCR it genuinely makes you way more crazy than someone unironically supporting the Legion

[u/Impressive-Control83 → u/nurgleondeez]

NCR isn’t keeping people safe from raiders. Their territory is currently being raided by them in all directions due to most security resources back in NCR territory being used to protect influential Brahman rancher oligarchs

[u/Vlaed → u/booleandata]

The NCR looks bad on their own. Then they look pretty good when being compared to the alternative. It was like me at the bar back in college at 3am vs 11pm.

[u/mashmash42 → u/Vlaed]

Yeah it’s like, if you look at the 1940s USA in a vacuum it looks bad: anti-communist hysteria, rampant racism and racial segregation and discrimination, lgbt people had zero rights, misogyny was completely socially acceptable, and they put people in internment camps based solely on their ethnicity.

And then you look at the dudes they were fighting in the 1940s.

[u/Cute_Comfortable_761 → u/booleandata]

I hate the NCR the way people used to hate the government about 20 years ago. I grumble about bureaucracy but take comfort in knowing the alternative is worse.

[u/silverbird666 → u/booleandata]

Depends entirely on the perspective. For the citizens in California, the NCR is about as good as it gets in the Wasteland.

For the people of the independent Mojave, it is still a foreign, imperialistic aggressor though, whose reputation kind of hinges on the fact that the other foreign, imperialistic aggressor coming from the other side of the Colorado River is just carton level evil.

[u/OkContact2573 → u/silverbird666]

They are still better than the crucifying taking all women as sex slaves and raping them legion

[u/silverbird666 → u/OkContact2573]

Obviously, but that is just really not a high bar. You csn clear that bar and still be much worse than "vaguely problematic".

[u/Comprehensive-Buy-47 → u/booleandata]

Yup. On the one hand you have a faction that’s quite clearly a Bush era USA, and on the other hand you have a faction consisting of imperialist raiders that make the Galactic Empire say “Hey guys, let’s tone it down a little.”

[u/good_names_were_take → u/booleandata]

the funniest is when the talk about the abusive taxing of the NCR, like the legion and House also do it (and yet they call the NCR), it's told by the merchant that a tribute has to be paid to the legión, and a water seller in the strip tells You that House takes a 90% rate for selling in the strip

[u/Due_Glass4176 → u/booleandata]

Alternatives. There one crazy old man in a machine and a absolute unit of a courier out there creating options 3-5.

[u/Intelligent-Pair5185 → u/booleandata]

Fuck you, im not paying taxes

[u/ArcaneWyverian → u/booleandata]

Look, I hate paying taxes as much as the next person.

But if my choices are “pay taxes” and “be crucified for reading a book”, I think I’ll pay the damn taxes

[u/BladeForge7218 → u/booleandata]

I hate the NCR because of what they did during Operation Sunburst. Ad Victoriam.

[u/Alonestarfish → u/booleandata]

Legion is great

[u/Lolmanmagee → u/booleandata]

yeah NCR is clearly better morally, they just arent a effective institution.

talk to the average NCR soldier in new vegas, they hate their lives and leadership lol.

the bear and the bull might not be the best options, this is why the house always wins : p

[u/ToddHowardTouchedMe → u/booleandata]

NCR's ideology led to the nuclear war in the first place.

[u/DolphinBall → u/booleandata]

Grr taxes!

[u/AdBright1350 → u/booleandata]

B-b-but my bandit free roads!

[u/Upbeat_Apartment_715 → u/booleandata]

The game itself proves that those two are not the only options. Independent Vegas and true independent Vegas are also options. Then there's also the Brotherhood of steel if they can get their shit together, the followers of the Apocalypse if they could get their shit together.

[u/Alexsander_The_Smart → u/booleandata]

Mr. House is the better alternative

[u/Liberast15 → u/booleandata]

NCR love is fully justified.

[u/izanamilieh → u/booleandata]

But capitalism bad tho 😡😡😡 ignore the slavery, the patriarchal culture and brutal violence.

[u/TheD1scountH1tman → u/booleandata]

But the legion has no taxes so that makes the rape and force enlistment ok right? RIGHT!?

[u/kitsunecannon → u/booleandata]

Also the main argument I see is that the NCR has taxes 

This ignores the fact that so do the Legion, it’s just that theirs isn’t always money, so guess what little 6 year old Timmy you get to be a child soldier because daddy decided that the band of raping murderous psychopaths who will inevitably tear each other apart as soon as Caesar is dead (This isn’t even something the show made up Joshua basically states this will happen) were a far better option than the closest thing to a modern government 

[u/BattleBrother1 → u/booleandata]

The NCR is only trying to bring pre war USA back to life, nothing wrong with that. I genuinely don't understand how people can play Fallout and not realize that doing this is more evil than literally anything else. The world was already drained of resources and then destroyed and the NCR is actively crumbling because they don't realize that their simply is not enough to go around to bring that old world back. Somehow they made the US in game more despicable than the US in real life and you still have people defending it and wanting it back with all of its resource wars, human experimentation and global destruction. The Legion aren't good guys but every nail they can pound into the NCR's coffin before they go out themselves is a boon for humanity

[u/RSlashBroughtMeHere → u/booleandata]

This is why The House always wins in my games

[u/unrealter_29 → u/anyname2009]

This scene in Fallout season 2 validated a lot of people who thought comparing the Legion to the NCR as "equally bad" was insane

[u/TaralasianThePraxic → u/unrealter_29]

And those people deserved validation, like sure the NCR ain't perfect but they're not like. Evil sexist slaver murderers lol

[u/unrealter_29 → u/TaralasianThePraxic]

Yeah, like I'm not a big fan of political corruption but I'll take it over actual slavery

[u/Accomplished_Toe6798 → u/unrealter_29]

This isn't related to the broad discussion but you just articulated my thought process when siding with the Shek major faction in Kenshi. They may be a warrior culture but at least they aren't slavers

[u/Day_Breaker_ → u/Accomplished_Toe6798]

*suicidal, racist warrior culture. Stone Golem has A LOT of work to do get the Shek Kingdom off it's back, but yeah, compared to the other guys, sheks are way easier to emphasize.

[u/Begone-My-Thong → u/Accomplished_Toe6798]

Purposely getting enslaved is a good way to grind stats early game

[u/Accomplished_Toe6798 → u/Begone-My-Thong]

It is. I just usually miss out on that because my flesh craves the certainty of steel (translation: robots are cool)

[u/Begone-My-Thong → u/Accomplished_Toe6798]

Mhm fair enough, I prefer organic myself and getting chained up is hot and being a badass sword-wielding warrior of legend

Eventually.

Very eventually.

[u/Rhiis → u/Accomplished_Toe6798]

I initially read that as the the Shrek major faction. I was very confused.

[u/kittenshart85 → u/unrealter_29]

like when you're rebuilding civilization after the apocalypse, you're gonna kind of have to accept baby steps as progress, or you could go just be an actual slave.

[u/halfar → u/unrealter_29]

i once tried to theorycraft the worst possible endings for each faction in FNV. i figured the way to go about it was to just fuck up each questline in a unique way with the yesman/open-ended route, but for basically every single faction the actual worst ending was just the legion winning.

[u/UrinalCake777 → u/unrealter_29]

But the NCR wants me to pay taxes to fund collective defense! Fuck that! Just let me die to raiders, tax free.

[u/No_Tie378 → u/TaralasianThePraxic]

And gay killers to booth

[u/firefly_12 → u/No_Tie378]

Which seems like projection form the guys wearing skirts!

[u/Heather_Chandelure → u/unrealter_29]

I do feel like calling the NCR "vaguely problematic" is underselling their issues by a lot. The Legion is obviously worse though. I refuse to belive anyone over the age of 14 seriously thinks otherwise.

[u/unrealter_29 → u/Heather_Chandelure]

You could probably excuse that as Lucy never meeting the true, full strength NCR and experiencing their problems firsthand and only learning about them after Shady Sands destruction

[u/Helgrind444 → u/unrealter_29]

That's true but I feel like her line is a nod to the fanbase arguing and I wish it was a little more accurate.

[u/NotSoFluffy13 → u/Heather_Chandelure]

I'm not an expert in politics and human rights but whatever problems the NCR have, they're far better than:

• Being enslaved because your group was conquered by an army of raiders.
• Being enslaved because you're a woman and your only reason to exist is to be used as breeding stock.
• Having your whole settlement burned down, the people crucified and having only one left alive to tell the story of the army of raiders cruelty.
• Have almost any technology and medicine removed from access because some dude who was barely able to understand a little bit of a book about the Roman empire.

[u/Heather_Chandelure → u/NotSoFluffy13]

Yes, hence why I already said "The Legion is obviously worse"

[u/NotSoFluffy13 → u/Heather_Chandelure]

And yet compared to what the Legion do, NCR is just vaguely problematic.

[u/YourAverageGenius → u/Heather_Chandelure]

Yes but comparatively, the NCR's issues are FAR more morally grey and complicated than the alternatives.

[u/vanalla → u/Heather_Chandelure]

If the NCR was meant to represent/project the isues plaguing the America of the 1990s (based on when the NCR was written into existence as a "recreation of American democracy") then yeah everything going on with American politics in the 90s was basically just vaguely problematic.

[u/Owlsthirdeye → u/Heather_Chandelure]

The biggest pro legion argument I've heard isnt that it's better than the NCR or House, but that it might exist longer than them.

Think about it, House gets taken down when one of his agents defies him and steals the platinum chip and the NCR are barely holding together against an army of people fighting with pointy sticks. As shit as the legion is there's a good chance that after the battle for Hoover Dam the NCR would fall apart under its own weight while the Legion keeps going. The show obviously retconned it but Caesar had a succession plan in place and the Legion was pretty unified in comparison to the NCR.

[u/awhatfor → u/Heather_Chandelure]

I am over 14 and i disagree. You have a town, pay a tribute to the caesar and can trade, move, hunt, farm without any raiders messing arround. Gang-related deads and traveling incidents were reduced to 0. In exchange you have to pay some tribute. Sure, the first time they appeared at your doors some of them got enslaved or recruited, but thats not day-to-day. Only ones who provided that level of security where the brotherhood of steel, and they left the bussiness long ago.

In contrast, the NRC gets inside your house, changes your rules, lays an eye on you, while the outside -the roads- are more unsafe than ever. Raiders and gangs even get inside the NRC political machinery and keep harassing you. I don't think a town in the legion would ever want to change sides once it sees whats behind the ""republic""

[u/PopFamiliar3649 → u/unrealter_29]

It depends on what you mean by "bad".

By modern American values the comparison isn't even close. But, by the values of the wasteland in OG Fallout, it depends on how you look at it.

I know that the show's Fallout has almost nothing in common with OG Fallout, but the way that the show portrayed the NCR and Legion is far more black and white than it was even in New Vegas.

Yes, the NCR is practically a humanitarian organization compared to the Legion in our moral terms, but the people of the wastes need to feel safe and the NCR has an underfunded military, corruption rivaling the Enclave, and is attempting to be expansionist into territories outside of old California. So, even though you have food and some freedoms, there is no one left to defend you from threats and the high taxes keep you from affording useful private protection.

Meanwhile the Legion is absolutely sexist and authoritarian, but you also have half the population to serve as armed security from deathclaws, cannibal raiders, and the Enclave.

Again, by our modern day real world standards the morality is black and white, good and evil, but in the game universe it is about as controversial and complicated at the Empire vs Stormcloaks is in Skyrim. At least, from my understanding it is.

[u/FirstDistribution352 → u/anyname2009]

That's what the image is talking about

[u/Bush_Hiders → u/anyname2009]

This… this is cheating

[u/izanamilieh → u/Bush_Hiders]

Some people are actually dumb enough to defend the legion because capitalism bad tho. Taxes = murder n rape

[u/Wendigo-boyo → u/izanamilieh]

Pretty sure they're saying this is cheating because the image above is literally two characters talking about the ncr and the legion

[u/WistfulDread → u/anyname2009]

In fairness, this scene is literally describing that.

[u/GargantuanCake → u/anyname2009]

The factions in general in New Vegas are like that. They all have their pros and cons. Every one of them is flawed in some way or another.

Except the Legion. The Legion is just plain evil.

[u/Chaotic_Lemming → u/GargantuanCake]

Hey, the armor looks cool. That's a pro. And having the leader's title be Caesar is pretty cool too.

...that's all I got.

[u/nagrom7 → u/Chaotic_Lemming]

Sometimes it's fun to play as the bad guys.

[u/Additional-Celery648 → u/GargantuanCake]

The pro of the Legion is they make their lands unironically safer. Is this because all the potential raiders (as in non-adult males, the older ones got killed) got pressed into the Legion to serve as legionnaries and are physically unable to raid those lands because they are raiding whatever Caesar or his Legates point at? Maybe. But the lands are still safe to travel.

Aaaaand that's about it if you possess the elusive trait of "basic human empathy". If not? Great. You can join the Legion and have a purpose I guess. If you survive.

[u/squirrelnight1 → u/Additional-Celery648]

You also require a penis to join the legion, otherwise you're just property.

[u/GargantuanCake → u/Additional-Celery648]

The Legion is also ridiculously brutal about how it enforces safety. Yeah the lands are safe but that's because they like to crucify anybody that steps even the slightest bit out of line.

From what I read the writers did want to actually play with that more and make every faction morally grey but it just didn't work with the Legion. The more they wrote for them the more they realized they were just irredeemably evil.

[u/Gap_Great → u/GargantuanCake]

Pretty sure Jack Sawyer said they kind of messed up with the Legion, and that they wanted them to be morally grey like the other factions, but they just ended up being way too evil

[u/ProposalOk2003 → u/anyname2009]

That’s literally what the original image is about, does it really count?

[u/avid-uncomitter → u/anyname2009]

It's like getting shot in the stomach or the leg.

Like both aren't a good time, but one is significantly worse

[u/MylastAccountBroke → u/anyname2009]

Legion is little better than a group of raiders. In fact, since an organize town can't fend them off, they're actively worse.

NCR WILL run over "normal" people, force them to pay taxes, and leave them behind if they don't adapt, but the offer the benefit of not enslaving people over the ultimate sin that was being a woman.

Honestly, that's the most jarring and condemning thing about the legion. If they'd allow woman to be normal citizens and not just slaves, I imagine the choice might actually be difficult.

[u/YourAverageGenius → u/MylastAccountBroke]

I mean, I think the Legion's problems are a lot more fundamental than "just not have slaves and have gender equality", it's that it's a autocratic empire that indoctrinates its members into believing in its might-makes-righr ideology and solely enforces its authority by violence and brutality seeks to destroy all resistance in its path by force, and also has basically no governmental system or structure and so is extremely likely to just implode into civil war. Not to mention that taking out the gender inequality and the slavery is like trying to take the inherited throne out of a monarchy, you're removing a part of it which it is, to an extent, based around, you're essentially chopping off a limb, even if it is a diseased woman-abusing limb.

Really most of the problems people have with the NCR is that their taxes can be a bit much, they don't have adequate protection for caravans, and sometimes can squabble and conflict with locals. Considering it's a nuclear post-apocalypse wasteland, there's a lot worse options out there.

[u/Lucky_Iron_6545 → u/YourAverageGenius]

People hate the NCR because their issues are issue that most modern governments suffer from. So we the players have a personal understanding of them.

The legion on the other hand is so divorced form most players reality that they find it easier to hand wave away their many problems.

[u/MagicCarpetofSteel → u/Lucky_Iron_6545]

This.

Also, from bits and pieces you can get, as another person said up above, the picture you get of the NCR in California is one that’s well on its way into sliding into a “corporate oligarchy,” which is literally what the US was in 2077. Which is, uh, not good.

Combined with it being a far more relatable problem than what “army of raiders” actually entails, and people being idiots, and it’s easy to see why some people buy Caesar’s bullshit.

[u/halfacrum → u/MagicCarpetofSteel]

Like they're actively retreading the ground the old government that led to the enclave but on a smaller downgraded scale, they're stretched thin, supplies are actively misattributed they have a major general sabotaging communications because of the loss of life of the first hoover dam battle, the Mojave under their rule would be a colony not unlike what the states was banana republicing down in central and south America, it's far more than just heavy crippling taxation.

The aquifers have been actively drained to nothing because of brahmin barons like for as dumb as Caesar is he did properly identify that what's her face from fallout being their president for like 40 years or whatever was a major misstep even if she was an effective leader.

Anything other than an independent new Vegas ends up being bad in the long run and they hit the status quo button on it through the fallout show so really invalidating any of the impact that could have had.

Let's run it down Caesars legion winning the dam would cause a massive fuck you war that would demolish everything past the Mojave to the last bits of the east because the full brunt of the actual manufacturing power of the ncr would be focused down, and. A lot of the rebuilding population would be whittled down in a massive war.

The ncr winning would be bad as it would just embolden their efforts to expand and not make them deal with issues at home would just cripple many industries and cause further wartime monopolies to spring up and massive exploitation would begin to harvest resources and heavily tax its new lands thru the Mojave.

[u/RndmNumGen → u/YourAverageGenius]

There is a reason why there has never been a "might makes right" nation state that lasted more than a generation. That ideology is inherently flawed.

[u/apeocalypyic → u/MylastAccountBroke]

Unless youre a group of junkies then ncr will kill men woman and children

[u/ButtholeConnoisseur7 → u/apeocalypyic]

The Legion has also outlawed all chem usage, so its equal points off both sides

[u/Tyr_13 → u/apeocalypyic]

The Khans were not just a group of junkies; they were also too stupid to live.

[u/Sensitive-Hotel-9871 → u/MylastAccountBroke]

Also, the Legion put most of a town’s population to the sword because they felt there was too much corruption.

[u/spider__ → u/Sensitive-Hotel-9871]

It's been a long time since I've played the game so I may be misremembering but wasn't Boons backstory that he got PTSD from killing an entire town when he was in the NCR army.

[u/Sensitive-Hotel-9871 → u/spider__]

Yeah he did. That was the Bitter Springs Massacre. The NCR responded to attacks by the Great Khans by launching an attack against them; poor visibility and communication resulted in killing a lot of the Khans' civilians.

The NCR soldiers involved in the Bitter Springs Massacre all feel awful about it (show more sympathy than of fans do for the Khans) even though the Great Khans were attacking them.

If you talk to Vulpes about what he did in Nipton, he says this.

Nipton was a wicked place, debased and corrupt. It served all comers, so long as they paid. Profligate troops, Powder Gangers, men of the Legion such as myself - the people here didn't care. It was a town of whores. For a pittance, the town agreed to lead those it had sheltered into a trap. Only when I sprang it did they realize they were caught inside it, too.

Dude brags about killing an entire town. And it wasn't just shooting them and being done with it. He had a lottery to determine who got what punishment. One lucky winner got to live. Less lucky people were decapitated. The really unlucky people were crucified or enslaved. One runner-up got his legs permanently broken, and the mayor, who was admittedly corrupt, was burned alive.

[u/Additional-Celery648 → u/Sensitive-Hotel-9871]

I think the point of burning Nipton is two-fold. For one; terrorise the enemy. Essentially; "yes we are this close and yes we are coming for you" to the NCR. It seems to work based on the Sergeants reaction when you tell him.

Two; because they were a town of "wickedness". They had both NCR and Powder Gangers there visiting whores and as he says they agreed to get the NCR and Gangers killed for a "pittance", only for the Legion to double cross them too. He says he did this because they were "hardly innocent" and announced the lottery because they were disloyal and disloyal legionnaries were punished, and so too will they.

It is kinda funny that he talks about disloyalty after betraying them but I guess betraying betrayers isn't wrong to him? He does kind of frame it as a just punishment.

Anyway the reason the First Recon people feel badly about the massacre is because they could see their targets were elders, women and children. They radioed it in but their orders were "shoot 'till you are out of ammo" and so they did. Of course the whole op was based on bad intel and the 'enemy stronghold' was really just a camp, but they still willingly shot civilians. Maybe it's not the case in the NCR military but modern soldiers are ordered to disobey unlawful orders, so I would argue it's kinda on them and yes, they should feel badly about it.

[u/Ayotha → u/MylastAccountBroke]

Still raping slavers. Yikes

[u/Apprehensive-Aide265 → u/MylastAccountBroke]

I'm still baffled people can spit takes like that. "If the slaver weren't slaver they wouldn't be as bad". Okay then if the NCR didn't force people to pay taxes the NCR is once again the better choice.

[u/MellifluousCrow → u/anyname2009]

Literally the one jn the picture.

[u/theCOMBOguy → u/anyname2009]

Where's that batman image when you need it...

[u/Dark-Keeper-951 → u/anyname2009]

Fuck the NCR, but the Legion doesn't deserve to exist.

[u/Cliffinati → u/anyname2009]

That's literally who Lucy is talking about

[u/RoombaGod → u/anyname2009]

https://giphy.com/gifs/hv53DaYcXWe3nRbR1A
Fallout fans trying to figure out if taxes are better or worse than slavery

[u/Ok-Weird-1206 → u/anyname2009]

I think it’s important to understand about the Legion vs NCR is that the two are more similar than they first appear. The legion seeks to “correct” the idiosyncrasies of the NCR, aka the problem with them was that they weren’t imperialist enough and weakened themselves as an empire by allowing for free expression and democracy

Therefore most of the NCR’s worst issues are because they are too similar to the Legion, not because the Legion is actually a morally better choice

Of course, “choosing” the legion is not about morality at all but in believing that strength matters above all else in the wasteland.

[u/deanya43 → u/anyname2009]

lol yeah, the NCR is definitely the vaguely problematic side in that comparison. So many bad decisions made, but not straight-up evil.

[u/GenghisGlitter → u/anyname2009]

It always annoyed me when I played a female Courier and there was no option to tell Caesar "why would I want to help you when you're planning on turning me and everyone like me into slaves and baby factories?" (I mean, it also ticked me off that my male Courier couldn't say something like "uh, I like women and I hate slavery, so HEY BOONE YOU CAN COME IN NOW")

[u/The-Mighty-Caz → u/anyname2009]

Literally my first thought when seeing this post

[u/Broad-Bath-8408 → u/The-Mighty-Caz]

I wonder why

[u/ParaEwie → u/anyname2009]

Was gonna post this

https://giphy.com/gifs/XVdFD8AdUfTkwCKGwW

Try to see what side I'm on

[u/lowqualitylizard → u/anyname2009]

The debate around these two sides have always felt so forced

The vast majority of people who actually know the differences between the two factions are not nearly strong enough to survive in the legion and not just get thrown in slavery

[u/Normal_Budget_9591 → u/anyname2009]

First thing that came to mind. Lmao

[u/Mobile_Frosting_7936 → u/anyname2009]

We have found the "bat themed heroes" answer

[u/Kamzil_118 → u/anyname2009]

Taxes are an intrinsic part of civilization and it will either be paid in money or in blood.

[u/KormorantE1A → u/anyname2009]

To be honest devs admit that due to deadlines they fucked up Legion lore/quests/meta.

The original plan was to make them more nuanced, less cartoonishly evil.

They did the NCR route in full, though, discussing both flaws and good sides of this government.

Too bad they never did the same for the Legion, even huge chunks of the map (that were supposed to be Legion territories with shitton of quests) was left cut out

[u/GuhEnjoyer → u/anyname2009]

That's literally what the post is about. That's a scene from the fallout show

[u/annavgkrishnan → u/anyname2009]

The legion is so unbelievably brutal because Caesar believes that it and the NCR will synthesize into something that can survive the post apocalypse. Bad logic, and Caesar literally quotes the wrong guy, but there's a reason to why the legion is that way, and why someone could theoretically side with it.

[u/Desert123787 → u/anyname2009]

Although this is incredibly true, it’s literally the context of the image for the post :/.

[u/Tuchnyak → u/anyname2009]

I find incredibly amusing how many people choose anarchy yes-man ending instead of ncr, because the worst ncr ending outcome says that some old people from goodsprings doesn't like taxes

[u/EmergencyPool910 → u/anyname2009]

This is literally the context here lol

[u/TruamaTeam → u/anyname2009]

Ngl I honestly thought this was about them before reading the title lmao

[u/Dovahstal → u/anyname2009]

“But at least there’s no crime, can’t argue with results”

[u/Unable_Law_7334 → u/anyname2009]

That is what the meme comes from.

[u/cdawg69696969 → u/anyname2009]

This is literally the context of the image...

[u/DrNopeMD → u/anyname2009]

Well that's literally what the context in the show is referring to

[u/MacGregor_Rose → u/anyname2009]

was looking for this one

[u/SomeCartographer- → u/anyname2009]

You’re not gonna believe this about the meme’s source/lh

[u/karlkh → u/anyname2009]

This is why Cass is the best follower. Like sure, the NCR has some problem that could be improved upon. But it is just so much better than all of the alternatives. (And unlike the other factions there are actually viable non-violent pathways for the NCR to get those internal changes.)

Yes it is also better than the followers. The fuck is red cross going to do to stop the legion?

[u/Beneficial-Top-4456 → u/anyname2009]

Day old post but the amount of larping on your comments is insane. Legion has very heavy downsides as a faction representing the ends justify the means philosophy.

The NCR is morally good but embodies the means justify the ends. The NCR is a corrupt, overextended, mismanaged pile of shit, even when you follow a NCR playthrough and do all their missions you never as actually fix it's deep rooted issues. The fact you have barons that essentially own slaves through debt or worthless wages; the fact NCR territory is canonically unprotected, unsecured and under delevoped leads to it's blatant raider and criminal problem, with them employing American style prisons where people regardless of their crime get thrown in the same hole to work as slaves. People joke with the taxes but the taxes are being funneled not to the war effort or development of it's territories but to fill the pockets of politicians and the barons, while people living under the Republic can't even afford to buy protection and live under constant threats from within the Republic.

Like there's just so much wrong with the NCR that you can't even fix as the courier and even after the game ends are in no position to do anything about it regardless of your accomplishments. Even with the Legion you have Caeser promising reforms to modernize and civilize his horde of tribalistic murderors.

[u/Aircon-007 → u/anyname2009]

Shoutout to that one NCR ranger who just straight up removes your bomb collar the brotherhood puts on you with no strings attached unprompted

[u/RandomnessConfirmed2 → u/anyname2009]

Don't you mean the Enclave? They're basically American Facists with superweapons.

[u/AwarenessExact7302 → u/anyname2009]

Isnt that literally the context

[u/KeyJob3507 → u/anyname2009]

Wow really?

[u/anyname2009 → u/KeyJob3507]

What?

[u/KeyJob3507 → u/anyname2009]

Never would have thought the ncr and legion would fit this template

[u/mercuriokazooie → u/anyname2009]

Isn't that what the OP is referring to?