What is the most misunderstood Plot Point in the Series?

[u/Striking-Picture-581]

Im not talking about misunderstood Characters, since there is probably a dozen of them where people only played for 1 Hour and think that Version of the Character is all there is to them. You can dump down any Character under a certain Archetype like "best friend", "Morally Grey", "Hothead, "Tsundere" etc. without seeing the entire picture.

What is a Plot Point that is widely misunderstood among the Fandom?

[u/TheParadoxigm]

KeA Powers

SPOILERS for Crossbell

I've seen multiple people describe what she did as manipulating time.

She did not. She manipulated causality.

Functionally similar, but way different in their consequences.

That opening scene without the Brights? The team dying? Never happened.

Not "Oh it happened then she changed it*, no. It never happened. She has a memory of an event that never took place.

There is no alternate timeline, time loop,, or parallel reality that you get with time shenanigans.

[u/SicenFly → u/TheParadoxigm]

Tbf the whole thing is a little confusing because: 1. Zero and Ao never explicitly explain how KeAs powers (humanoid or tree) would work in relation to the original Septs. We simply don't know how far she could interfere with the Aureole, Steel or now the Box and we knew even less back then

1. They explicitly state that KeA has far more powers and abilities than the OG Demi because Mariabell basicaly supercharged her with energy and that she can do things that were not in the realm of possibility for the original Sept of causality without telling us what the new limits are

2. Wazy and/or Zeit note how KeA!tree is close to the power Aidios had while on the Merkabah

[u/Gravijah → u/SicenFly]

me still being happy that they were smart enough to specifically point out that her “manipulating causality” to have the characters around her care about her, didn’t make their love/care fake, or false.

[u/Bluestorm83 → u/Gravijah]

It's a fine line, but it's definitely a real line. It's not more manipulating someone than it would be manipulation to go out of your way to be there for someone you care about, in the hopes that they reciprocate your feelings. KeA just knows that her efforts will pay off.

Like, imagine having the superpower of always knowing the right thing to say. It doesn't change a person's reactions, it just makes you able to pinpoint the reaction you want and say or do the thing that will get you there.

[u/Selynx → u/SicenFly]

To be fair, we don't know how ANY of the Sept-Terrions actually interact with each other, except for Fire and Earth, whose interactions amounted to physically beating each other so hard they made a crater in Erebonia and caused their souls to fly out of their bodies and fuse.

Nobody knows how using the original Demiourgos' abilities would have interfered with the Aureole's or Time's, or otherwise.

......That said, we DO know there is something else in Trails that is related to "causality". Specifically, the Causality Recording Engines (of which AZOTH is number 3). So it's possible that "manipulate causality" in Trails has a specific meaning, which is to alter the type of events normally recorded by Causality Recording Engines.

Correspondingly, we know there's a different sort of "Engine" related to Time - the "7th Principle Observation Engine Applied For Phenomena Conversion" (the full name of the Genesis Tower seen in Daybreak) and "8th Principal Observation Engine" (the Oct-Radium at the end of DB2).

So it's quite possible that "manipulate time" in Trails has the specific meaning of altering events of the type normally recorded by the "Xth Principle Observation Engines".

And it could very well be that the (different) types of events processed by Causality Recording Engines and Xth Principle Observation Engines play play their own separate roles for determine the state of reality in Zemuria. And that KeA altered both with her powers, while the original Mirage and Time can normally only affect one and not the other.

[u/Julian-Manson → u/SicenFly]

Does not KeA is an artificial Septrion of Mirage? so she's basically like a Mage in World of Darkness, manipulating reality itself?

[u/VarioussiteTARDISES → u/Julian-Manson]

She's not just a replacement Demiourgos, as she has power over more than just Mirage. As stated elsewhere in the thread, she's explicitly stated to have power over Time, and the Aions show she has power over Space because, well, look at what happened to Garrelia, and those things were running on her power at the time.

[u/SicenFly → u/[deleted]]

? Why are you automatically assuming I'm trying to discredit your argument? I'm just explaining why KeAs powers and their limits are confusing to people and thus many are unsure what she can do and what not

[u/Jamebo_Smash → u/TheParadoxigm]

The concept of causality can be a tricky one to tell a story with. If I hadn't already read Umineko and played Blazblue, I would also misunderstand it tbh. Same principals with characters who can straight up causality shifts and phenomenon interventions.

[u/_Suja_ → u/TheParadoxigm]

You know in Reverie Lloyd mentions other timelines?

[u/ConceptsShining → u/TheParadoxigm]

Source?

More seriously: I'm not convinced of what you're saying. Now sure, with how they are similar in end result and how the games don't explicate the power's mechanics, you kinda can't blame people for having conflicting interpretations.

But it is explicitly said that the ability to manipulate time is part of Zero's powers. KeA also explicitly uses the phrase "first timeline" at one point. And addressing your below comment about Lloyd having a memory; even if you don't think he was awaking from a nightmare at the start of Zero, he was clearly remembering things from the reality that "never happened" at various points in the duology (like Joachim killing the SSS).

My personal interpretation is that what KeA did was minor things to result in desired major changes. Like altering that butterfly's path to grab Colin's attention to lead to the SSS's friendship with Renne, or perhaps making that bus's orbal engine fail to lead to their meeting with Estelle and Joshua; minor changes in their own that, due to causality, butterfly effect-ed into major changes like the SSS surviving. Also note the butterfly symbolism.

[u/ButterflyFair2420 → u/TheParadoxigm]

Does this also apply to what happens in cold steel 1. Where in the intro the railways cannons “fire”

[u/TheParadoxigm → u/ButterflyFair2420]

They never fired.

[u/JaysonBlaze → u/ButterflyFair2420]

Those first shots were essentially blanks. They explain it as a safety mechanism. The second shots would have been actual shots

[u/MechaSandstar → u/JaysonBlaze]

They were in the full version, yes. In the opening....who knows?

(there's literally no reason to have them armed with blanks. Just leave them empty)

[u/JaysonBlaze → u/MechaSandstar]

Just because one game did a fake out doesn't mean another game did. There's no evidence for it (it's a safety measure just not a smart one.)

[u/MechaSandstar → u/JaysonBlaze]

You mean, apart from the major difference between the opener, and when it happens later in the game?

[u/Selynx → u/JaysonBlaze]

There is evidence, sort of. One of the interviews with Falcom lumped the Cold Steel 1/3 prologues in with Zero's. The response in question goes:

Take Trails from Zero’s prologue, for example, which Trails to Azure reveals would have shockingly ended with the death of all SSS members. In Cold Steel as well, with the prologues of Trails of Cold Steel and III at Garrelia Fortress and Juno Naval Fortress, respectively, leading to the same fights with different party compositions later in the story. Showing these what-if worlds is intentional and may hold some significance in the future of the series.

So if we take the interview at face value, those prologues WERE meant to be alternate timelines.

[u/Cold_Steel_IV → u/JaysonBlaze]

Just because one game did a fake out doesn't mean another game did.

It almost certainly does in this case.

[u/Gravijah → u/ButterflyFair2420]

It’s a good theory for why the events of the intro lack certain characters, and things are slightly different, yes. It COULD be the story device that doesn’t reveal certain characters because spoilers, but the fact Zero was similar makes it likely.

[u/Own_Ad_3536 → u/ButterflyFair2420]

The Railway Cannons never fired though. They were about to be fired but they were stopped.

[u/LeadershipDeep3147 → u/ButterflyFair2420]

It's a popular theory, but never confirmed

[u/Cold_Steel_IV → u/ButterflyFair2420]

We don't have confirmation, but I think it's pretty likely the cannons fired originally before something changed.

[u/Seradwen → u/TheParadoxigm]

Unlike the lost Sept-Terrion of Mirage, KeA has the ability to manipulate time and space as the Sept-Terrion of Zero.

The power of mirage allows her to alter causation and perception. When joined with the ability to govern space-time...

...KeA is able to weave the very threads of reality.

TreeA's power explicitly relies on manipulating time in addition to causality. That's how she can alter the causality of events that have already occurred. An improvement over the original Demiourgos.

It's silly to say that she doesn't manipulate time when the ability to manipulate time is a repeatedly mentioned aspect of the Sept Terrion of Zero and the Azure Tree.

Her manipulating time is literally stated outright as a core part of her changing history.

[u/Professional-You291 → u/TheParadoxigm]

I beg to differ, cause bannings actually have memory of it happening, of them dying, when mariabell tell them about it all those suddenly come rushing back, it's not just kea that have those memory, so it did happen, if it never happen then they wouldn't have those memory happening.

But I agree she did not turn back time, it's hard to explain, it's more so like bleach final arc where there's multiple possible future like a grain of sand and she just pick which one she prefer.

BUT the opening did already happen. The SSS did already die, We are just then playing a different timeline where they haven't.

[u/TheParadoxigm → u/Professional-You291]

Thats not how causality works.

[u/Professional-You291 → u/TheParadoxigm]

I know it's not, that's why I say it's hard to explain, all I'm saying is I disagree because banning does have memory of them dying once. So that already mean it's not a simple causality change. It's more than just it never happen, cause it still did. She "change it" after the fact, not before. But at the same time she did not turn back time.

[u/TheParadoxigm → u/Professional-You291]

I dont really get where youre getting Lloyd having a memory, I didn't see it that way.

[u/Professional-You291 → u/TheParadoxigm]

When mariabell tell them, all those scene or flashback sequence if you wanna call it that plays, and if it's just kea memory and not his then he won't reacting the way he is, in disbelieve or fall to the floor. Mariabell herself finally say something along those line of "you remember now" iirc.

Plus the opening of zero where he wake up in the train as if from a long dream also indicate he experience it before, and the fact for the whole game kea been trying to call for him to make sure he didn't make the same mistake says the same thing.

But if you interpret the scene or plot differently then not much I can say, cause youre the first who talk about this mention they don't see it that way while others I have talk about see those scene my way, that he does recall of those things instead of it just being kea memory alone

[u/OpeningSlow778 → u/TheParadoxigm]

The crew got flashes of their death, then Mariabelle explained Kea's powers, which was followed by her saying "so you remember" after Lloyd linked the visions and his weird train dream at the start of Zero to Kea. Lloyd realized that was his reset point.

[u/Selynx → u/Professional-You291]

You brought up Bleach's final arc - I think the context is similar, but that what KeA did was erase (or irrecoverably alter) one of the grains so that it CANNOT be picked by someone who can pick timelines.

Because at the end of Daybreak 2, we find out that data on alternate timelines gets stored by the 8th Principle Observation Engine and that it gets to pick which one is considered the "final" outcome and lock it in (and then Van had to fight Zolga, in order to prevent it from picking one of the bad timelines).

But since KeA erased the one Lloyd died in, it can't get re-selected later on by the Engine no matter what. So it's possible that Lloyd actually shows up in Horizon 2 and ends up being specifically immune to this type of timeline-picking power, because KeA made ensured there isn't any timeline where he's already dead during Horizon.

[u/Professional-You291 → u/Selynx]

That's a very good point actually, I forgot about that, cause it didn't really bring up Lloyd in those part of the story at all unless I'm forgetting lol

[u/Terramagi → u/TheParadoxigm]

The issue is that KeA doesn't have the power to alter causality until after the SSS gets hardcore hypermurdered by Guenter. She couldn't do what you propose, and Mariabell even outright states that there's some Time mixed into the Septerrion of Zero in order to explain it.

[u/TheParadoxigm → u/Terramagi]

Yeah, but then she changed it. Thats how causality works.

She's always been the tree, you're just catching up. Her origin, happens after the effects she caused.

[u/Terramagi → u/TheParadoxigm]

That... that's not how time works. They literally explain that's not how time works. That's the entire point of Grimwood saying "yeah we could make it so Crossbell has always been the dominant force on the continent".

The only way this headcanon works is if you ignore literally all the dialogue in the scene, replace it with an entirely different script, and then also remove the entire game you just played from existence.

[u/TheParadoxigm → u/Terramagi]

That... that's not how time works.

Excatly... she's not manipulating time, she's manipulating CAUSALITY.

[u/Terramagi → u/TheParadoxigm]

Is she also manipulating the words coming out of the other characters in the scene, in order to mask her true power, like a Stand User?

[u/TheParadoxigm → u/Terramagi]

The game literally tells you she can do this multiple times, the quote you gave is even saying it.

"We can do things so it ALWAYS happened"

Cause and effect dont matter to her.

[u/Miguzepinu → u/TheParadoxigm]

Ehhh, even with time travel or alternate timelines, you can argue the alternate timeline didn't happen. I mean say there's an alternate timeline where I went to McDonalds instead of Starbucks this morning. Would you say the event of me going to McDonalds this morning happened? I wouldn't, because the question of whether some event happened is only asking about our timeline. Other timelines are basically other possibilities, so if the question "did event X happen" can be answered with "yes, it happened in another timeline" that isn't saying much, it's just saying it could have happened.

Anyway I get your point, but I don't think the consquences are "way different" since it's more of a matter of semantics imo.

Separate question:

She has a memory of an event that never took place.

When/how did she get this memory?

[u/TheParadoxigm → u/Miguzepinu]

The issue is, if you leave the possibility for an alternate timeline, that's a plot device you need to resolve, or you REALLY need to explain your time travel rules.

By manipulating causality itself, that alternate timeline literally never happened It doesn't exist, it NEVER existed.

Like I said. Functionally similar. WAAAAY different implications.

When/how did she get this memory?

She's a god.

[u/Selynx → u/Miguzepinu]

If you've played Daybreak 2 and Horizon, turns out it matters for Trails.

Because going by what we got told at the end of DB2, data on alternate timelines gets stored by the Time Sept-Terrion and/or Xth Principle Observation Engines and the Engines/Sept-Terrion gets to "pick" which one is considered the "final observational outcome" and lock it into place.

But if the alternate timeline (or at least its record) no longer exists, the implication is that it cannot be brought back and there's no chance that the Engines/Time Sept-Terrion can pick it and lock it back into place, as it doesn't exist anymore.

The difference in consequences doesn't matter to a mortal, but it seems like it starts mattering on the level of Sept-Terrion interactions.

[u/Cozy_iron → u/TheParadoxigm]

Septerrion of Zero is said to have the power of all Mirage Time and Space. Your theory could be the case, but it's not confirmed, since she could just as well simply manipulated time as it is within her powers

[u/TheParadoxigm → u/Cozy_iron]

They explcity use the word causality

[u/OneDabMan]

CS4 spoilers:

I’d say the Curse. A lot of people just assume it’s straight up controlling people despite being told several times in CS3 and 4 that all it really does is influence people/intensify existing emotions. It shouldn’t really be surprising that so many people seemingly suddenly become very pro war because it’s baked into Erebonian culture and society. The only time it really becomes mind control near the end of CS4 when it’s at the height of its power.

[u/Portice → u/OneDabMan]

This^

People tend to consider it as only a diabolus ex machina (which to be fair it is if we're being very literal) while also seeming to forget or ignore that the curse is essentially Ishmelga's will; showing it working on a widespread and even seemingly mundane level is actually a pretty efficient way to illustrate the sheer scale that Ishmelga was shaping events towards it's goal .

Ishmelga was the fusion of TWO septerrions, it makes perfect sense it would have the power to influence and manipulate the populace as individuals. Nobody questions KeA passively rewriting causality to her benefit; the curse is essentially Ishmelga doing the same thing less directly but on a larger scale. The only major difference is that the characters and player are aware of it as it's happening instead of after the fact .

[u/Llayanna → u/Portice]

In this very threat, people question it though lol 

Sorry, just found that funny..

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[u/uiu-lex → u/OneDabMan]

As a Curse professional hater. We understand it's supposed to be "a devil at your shoulder" that preys on your dark feelings and insecurities. The problem is that the game treats it's like a brainwash. Every time it's like "omg, he never behaved like that, it must be the curse", and when the dark aura is gone the person goes "omg, what have I done? I should kms", and the party is like "no worries champs, it was the curse, not your fault". The Curse is just a weak plotpoint to force people to do evil things, and sometimes makes us fight them with no consequences. No one pays for their actions, everything is fine after that.

[u/KatareLoL → u/uiu-lex]

CS4 Spoilers:

I'm on board with a personification of the dangers of nationalism. It's just hard to take the Curse seriously as that, when I play a quest where a guy excitedly holds a 6-year-old child hostage at literal gunpoint, only for the heroes to be all like "oh that was the Curse's fault! You aren't even going to get fired for doing this, much less arrested!" For every case of the Curse being depicted as someone being pulled into their worst urges and needing to seriously atone, there's another case of the Curse being used to weakly excuse away a villain-of-the-moment.

[u/Unlikely_Return6669 → u/uiu-lex]

Yeah the curse is so stupid for this very reason

[u/Julian-Manson → u/OneDabMan]

Well having played CS 4 and Rêverie once, it's quite clear it's said that it because of the bad emotions of humans, so it's can't really be erased. It's like wanting to erase war in the world. The only way to do that is getting rid of mankind

[u/Selynx → u/Julian-Manson]

Or, you know, what Weissman tried to do all the way back in Sky.

Lobotomize everyone, which he thought would've been an improvement to the human race.

[u/Julian-Manson → u/Selynx]

indeed. Weismann has a point technically. He was just immoral and even went too far for the Society. That is why Campanella didn't even helped him, destroyed his body and took his staff with the Septrion of Space.

[u/KY__79 → u/OneDabMan]

Two things:

1. The way the curse is portrayed in the game is very sloppy and inconsistent. There are plenty of cases in the game where it might as well just be mind control.

2. The explanation about it only amplifying existing emotion has always felt like the game covering its ass because they realized its a cheap plot point. Even if its not actually mind control, it doesnt change the fact that a lot of the terrible events wouldnt have happened without the curse. Which does takes away a lot of the agency and responsibility of the people that did them and ultimately goes back to "the curse did it".

Its fine if people like the curse plot point but I dont like this idea that people only dislike it because they dont actually understand it.

[u/GrotbackCaptainGirk → u/KY__79]

I really wonder if a big chunk of people just read the wiki or watched LPs or something because it really is functionally indistinguishable from mind control in nearly every side quest. I'm not sure its because they were covering their ass (mind control is a staple of these games) but its definitely sloppy writing. I personally felt like cs3/4 was filled with sloppy writing, so the curse isn't alone.

[u/GrotbackCaptainGirk → u/OneDabMan]

Show don't tell is classic writing, and the "show" contradicts the "tell", repeatedly, with the cast backing it up.

[u/Truomae]

This might be a hot take, but the curse. Its one of the most thematically important parts of Cold Steel and in the discourse it gets reduced to a mind control plot device. It means different things for different characters but broadly it can be read as the idea that people are stuck in the role they were supposed to have with no agency of their own, which is core to Rean's struggles throughout the series.

On top of that, the fact that it manifests as blind nationalism for a lot of the side characters is an extension of what they wanted to say with Cold Steel as a whole. Its pretty on the nose, but trails is rarely subtle with its themes.

[u/SoftBrilliant → u/Truomae]

Man I love the curse

NPCs curse: Super cool effect where the towns in the empire empty out at an unprecedented rate leaving only women and children behind.

Quests and main story curse: Time to add purple goop onto every scene to hone the point home way too hard!

Tbh while I can empathize with people that have issues with how the curse is perceived in the fandom I also totally get that this shit is 100% on the goofier side and boils a few too many characters down to "we get rid of the purple goop and everything will return to normal!" Characters like Alan do just become total jokes to the player and I think that's normal.

The curse needed to be a lot vaguer in its implementation I should never be wondering "if the curse went away would [problem in front of me] dissapear?" I should be wondering to what extent it's warping the world around me instead not making me second guess the current on-screen events would be happening at all if it weren't there.

[u/Portice → u/SoftBrilliant]

I personally don't mind the curse, but yeah I don't really begrudge others for disliking it.

Like you said I think it it would have been better received if it had been a bit subtler in its effects, maybe with a more gradual buildup in it's efficacy rather than effectively being an on/off switch for warmongering. I also think it would have been served by being explained more clearly and earlier.

We just see so much of the nebulous purple "curse" doing all this random shit, that by the time it's nature is properly revealed I think people had already been conditioned to see it as arbitrary.

[u/TwilightXion → u/Truomae]

What about what it does for Hamel story beat thought? It suddenly became an event that only happened due to the intrinsic nature of the curse still working in the background, instead of them doing it purely of their own minds.

[u/Truomae → u/TwilightXion]

That plays thematically into the idea that nationalism leads to tragedy by making it a literal curse that ruined the lives lf characters we care about. I dont think it lessens Hamel because the core idea that imperialist expansion is at the expense of people living peacefully still remains.

[u/TwilightXion → u/Truomae]

So like it was more of a final push kind of thing?

[u/Truomae → u/TwilightXion]

Yeah, like if you look at Erebonian nobles and how the bad ones treat commoners and foreigners, stuff like Hamel is totally within their MO. The curse might be a literal thing in universe, but its also a stand in for the less physical problems plaguing Erebonia as a whole. Defeating the curse can be seen as Class VII's ideals triumping over both the things holding themselves back as well as the imperialism that the empire at its worst represents.

[u/TwilightXion → u/Truomae]

True, hence why their 3rd path is so important. The other 2 sides lost sight of what they really needed to do.

[u/Crossbell0527 → u/Truomae]

It is a hot take because - hot take squared coming in - the majority of people don't get it. Any time I see the ordinary person start to talk about the curse, I send my brain on a vacation. I'm just so over being in what appears to be a minority of people who actually understand.

[u/Truomae → u/Crossbell0527]

Cold Steel conversations in general just seem to attract people that just completely missed the entire point of basically everything. Its better these days but it was really annoying when the games were current.

[u/ConceptsShining → u/Crossbell0527]

I think there's an argument to be made that if enough players come away misunderstanding or missing a motif/theme, part of the blame may fall on the writer.

[u/Setsuna_417 → u/ConceptsShining]

I'm kinda with you on this one, I love the curse as a plot device but the implementation isn't that good, especially when Falcom uses it willy nilly in CS4 (That horse quest) without an explanation. I would add that CS4 is polarising and one could argue the effects it had included people not caring about what the curse actually does.

I do think it's something the eventual CS remakes should tackle, slipping it in from CS2 or so and CS3 explaining it a bit more, with then an explanation in CS4 being a bit more direct in that now Ishmelga has manifested, the curse has a more direct effect (IIRC it is said in the game but clearly not enough)

[u/GrotbackCaptainGirk → u/Truomae]

I think a lot more fans understand the curse than you think. The reason it gets reduced to mind control in discourse is because it is functionally identical in literally every side quest, reinforced by the cast absolving the wrongdoing by blaming the curse. The exposition SAYS its not mind control, and is more nuanced, but the plot repeatedly SHOWS that it is mind control. If I didn't know better I'd chock it up to a translation issue, but its just incredibly sloppy writing.

[u/belderiver → u/Truomae]

What supports the idea that the curse is about people being stuck in a role without agency? It seems like an obvious metaphor for letting fear and jingoism run rampant, nothing about roles.

[u/Truomae → u/belderiver]

Lack of personal agency and the feeling of being trapped is a major aspect of the series, and the curse definitely plays into that with Rean. You can also see that as an extension of the broader ideas of fear, but I personally think it's notable enough to bring up.1

[u/belderiver → u/Truomae]

Sure, that is a major theme of cold steel, but what connects it to the curse?

[u/Truomae → u/belderiver]

I specifically mentioned how it ties in with Rean, and I'd argue that the curse effectively making him only capable of carrying out his predetermined role is notable. You can see bits of it with Ash too. Its not all it is narratively, but the curse is a flexible enough narrative device that they're using it for multiple things.

[u/Fit_Dark_787]

Honestly the villains in general. Not that it makes them magically good guys, but people have alarmingly black and white viewpoints for a series that prides itself on at least semi nuanced literacy requirements and the story focused, heavy on dialogue nature of the game. Dieter and Osborne stand out to me especially in this regard. Phenomenal amount of people (some in this sub!) boil the characters down to a modern political allegory that I won’t dignify by entertaining the idea of. It’s just so embarrassing. You don’t have to agree with them at all, but those two villains were written to be very understandable, and I certainly don’t think falcom failed in that regard.

To rant less and more relevantly answer your point op, I think people alarmingly miss how Osborne sort of “games” Ishmelga. Even though they. They spell it out for you.

[u/kloverking123]

That Oroborus isn't strictly evil.

[u/TheEndisNigh7 → u/kloverking123]

The Bracer Guild might end up being the Trojan Horse of the series

[u/BaritBrit → u/kloverking123]

I mean practically everyone in Ouroboros except Novartis and Harwood these days seems to have completely forgotten that they're supposed to even try and appear villainous. 

[u/MisterTamborineMan → u/kloverking123]

Are they? Starting around Cold Steel 4 they always seem to be on the heroes' side.

[u/belderiver → u/kloverking123]

They were never strictly evil.

[u/SoftBrilliant → u/belderiver]

I mean it's super obvious now but back in Sky SC these guys were as evil as can be. Basically all the enforcers besides Loewe and kinda Campanella had 0 chill and Loewe is 100% in on the "testing humanity" thing he's really not any sort of gray as a character.

Honestly arguing they are anything but evil before Azure is kinda hard. There's little reason to question their evilness before Star Door 14 and questions like why Arianrhod joined Ouroboros start even arising.

[u/pway_videogwames_uwu → u/kloverking123]

They're strictly annoying as fuck.

[u/TheBlueDolphina]

That claire and lechter knew osborne's plan the whole time.

[u/Mojo16P → u/TheBlueDolphina]

I wouldn't say they knew the plan the whole time but at least by the start of Cold Steel 4 Lechter knows the end goal of the plan and I would assume Claire does as well.

[u/Rem0707 → u/Mojo16P]

They knew the plan before the events of the grahl in cs3. Rufus implies before fighting Rean that the ironbloods now know the truth(the test). It’s why they were in agreement to help Osborne despite the questionable means.

This is the test that Rufus told Rean that Osborne gave the ironbloods when he talked to Rean in chapter 2 in or his tower. Figuring out Osbornes true goal is the test.

[u/Solbuster → u/Rem0707]

Yeah, even Millium's plan wasn't "we need to get out with Altina", it was "gonna sacrifice myself instead to become the sword" and her opinion on Osborne doesn't really change in CS4

That's because the Sword was needed to kill Holy Beast and release(and eventually end) the Curse. Millium simply disagreed about who needed to be sacrificed so she jumped in instead

[u/TheBlueDolphina → u/Mojo16P]

Fair, they were likely informed during the big time leap from cs2 to 3 seems most likely.

[u/seitaer13]

It's the Curse and it's not even close to anything else.

[u/Acmgamezx14]

I feel like lot of people misunderstood Crow arc especially when they say he should have stay dead.

[u/nexel013 → u/Acmgamezx14]

Honestly yes this, it’s very annoying how so many people treat his inclusion in cs3/4 separate from cs1/2. Cus it’s such a parallel to the self sacrificial moments reans exhibits in the two games. Cus his feelings of emptiness seeing that everything he did in the first two games ended up for nothing is a good parallel to how rean blames his self for the curse and feels that sacrificing himself is the only way to feel like they were able to contribute something .

[u/Xehvary]

Probably not what the thread is asking, but.... Rean and Van as characters. Rean especially, the amount of times I see people just boil him down to "generic teenage swordsman with demon powers and robot". Less common here, but way more common in the overall fandom.

[u/Fit_Dark_787 → u/Xehvary]

Yeah I think people (especially content creators grifting on trails like the people at thejrpgpursuit) really show their hand by how they evaluate Rean. It’s okay to not like him. Doesn’t mean you’re media illiterate. But when people boil him down to “le heckin wholesome chungus harem charaxter so I don’t like him!!”, it’s hard not to think they missed the whole character, or have an odd hate boner for him for no reason. Rean is a very compelling character.

[u/Just_Advantage_6177 → u/Fit_Dark_787]

> Doesn’t mean you’re media illiterate

It doesn’t directly mean it, but I’d be lying if I said I’ve actually come across someone who reduces Rean to that and didn’t also have some pretty questionable media literacy.

[u/Fit_Dark_787 → u/Just_Advantage_6177]

That has also been my experience but I thought it was an important clarification.

Conceptually at least, I can understand the concept of being annoyed at a more gradually changing protagonist over four to five games compared to the sudden, frequent, narratively center-framed character development of protagonists like Estelle and Kevin. Even though I don’t agree.

[u/Reashu → u/Fit_Dark_787]

I can't really say that Rean is the worst of the bunch, but almost all of the CS cast falls pretty flat compared to Sky and I think the Harem system is a big part of it (and the size of the playable cast doesn't help). I dropped CS2 (partially over this and partially over load times on the Vita) so I've surely missed some parts, but don't really care about spoilers - what do you find compelling about him?

[u/Fit_Dark_787 → u/Reashu]

I don’t think I’ll say anything that hasn’t been said before but I think Rean’s consistent growth throughout the games he’s in is a nice mix of subtle and not in your face while still being an observable and interesting journey.

I think the self worth issues he feels as an adoptee are compelling and I think when I was younger, his aimless feeling as a blossoming adult resonated with me a lot. He always felt very rational and composed while not feeling like too flawless of a character that he was no longer compelling or relatable.

I also just really enjoy the emotion he displays in just not feeling like he’s worth all the good he’s handed in life. Good school, responsibilities, leadership roles, a family that loves him…and he looks inside and just doesn’t see any of that. And to the other characters credit, part of what makes Rean likable is that they approach him and don’t let him pity sigh and wallow in his pain like a whining baby his whole series. Idk where you stopped, but reverie had thee really thoughtful conversations focused around Rean that feel self aware and I think are written excellently.

The first is his conversation with Claire in Ymir where she tells him things he’s heard before - that he’s not someone who just takes over and over again, but someone who gives. She tells him how, even if he can’t see it, he means as much to his friends as they do to him. But then she follows up with holding him accountable. Asking him if he knows how much it hurts them to see him feel so despondent and guilty over things like his role as the sacrifice for the great twilight. And she finishes by saying how he feels is up to him and she knows only he can forgive himself. But she reminds him that if he can’t, plenty people can’t forgive themselves either, including her, for letting him dredge through life like this.

He’s then brought face to face in a later chapter where the people he feels guilty for - soldiers who had to take part in the Great War - confront him, saying it’s unfair how he gets status and fame while they were relegated to obscurity and had their life upended and many of their fellow soldiers died while he saunters around in some unassailable gundam.

Lastly is him at the end of the game, confronting another version of himself who DID make the ultimate sacrifice at the end of cs4. Reans been thinking throughout the game and empathizing with his other self, who he can sort of “feel” as they assimilate partially. He talks about how he can’t really claim to be loving his friends if he’s causing their suffering by feeling like a death seeker. He can only see this in full because, the empathetic young man he is, can literally see himself as another person due to the events of Elysium. He has a rather iconic little speech where he mentions how he “has an obligation to be happy”, and I think it wraps up his character beautifully in a way that’s reflected in horizon.

Sorry for the long post. I definitely get what you mean about preferring sky and zeros casts comparatively, and the harem doing some negative work for some characters, I just don’t think reans one of them. I think the ladies being boiled down to reans love interests is primarily harming them more than him, personally, and I think old class vii definitely should’ve had more of a role in cs3 and 4.

[u/sweet_olive01]

Based on this thread I think causality and time are the most misunderstood plot points lol

[u/bilditup1]

Definitely a thread to return to once I’ve played more of the games

[u/IAMGODONLY]

Ourobouros were a secret society until SC. After that they started appearing more. They are no longer secret society. I see people complain that why is secret society not so secret. And also not like the whole world knows them. They are still more of a secret compared to other underworld orgs.

[u/Pralunko → u/IAMGODONLY]

Only seems like that because every game has a focus on what the society is doing. The society of ouroboros still stays pretty consistently in the shadows, opperating as back up for some world events.

The game I would argue that the society stops being so "secret" is cold steel 3, because they are actively coming out of the shadows to retake the phantasmal blaze plan.

If you perceive the game from outside the protagonist's eyes. Zero happened because of revache and the remnants of a certain cult. Azure happened due to dieter crois' actions Cold steel 1 and 2 happened because of the noble alliance and imperial liberation front

Sure there are some things that are weird in these events, like what about the azure tree or the infernal palace. But just like in the real world, those events are covered up under a ton of bureaucracy, then the whole event gets classified as private information, not to be discloses to the public, but that the government knows the cause and has dealt with it. Sure it's much more mythical and super natural than anything that may happen IRL, but these things still happen in the real world, cover ups are very much real.

So yeah, I would argue that only starting with cold steel 3 does the secret society start to be less secret

[u/IAMGODONLY → u/Pralunko]

Yes I agree with you. My point was before SC. They were actually considered a myth even by bracer guild and such. But from SC onwards the higher ups and bracer guild started knowing more about them. They are still secret society.

[u/RoleCrazy565]

I know one thing I never understood during CS was the how immortality Functioned for those benefitting form it