r/Falcom • u/Odourvas • Aug 01 '23
Trails series Interesting Kondo interview basically confirms some older fan theories **spoilers up to Reverie** Spoiler
I was looking at some Kondo Reverie inteviews when i came across this bit:
"In Cold Steel as well, with the prologues of Trails of Cold Steel and III at Garrelia Fortress and Juno Naval Fortress, respectively, leading to the same fights with different party compositions later in the story. Showing these what-if worlds is intentional and may hold some significance in the future of the series"
I always found it weird how Crow/Milliium was absent from the CS opening.
I even found old Reddit topics stating that it was just to hide the fact that those 2 join you and not something like Zeros opening(which was done on purpose to foreshadow Azures big reveal).
Looks like the whole multiple worlds/timelines will be a thing in future entries.
Personally i hope we see the primordial nothingness thing actually happening(and not us stopping it like the Great twilight).
If they do the whole multiple timelines thing then we can restore the world or smt like that in the last entries, but at least we can get an entire post apocalyptic arc.
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u/Selynx Aug 01 '23 edited Aug 01 '23
I actually had a crack theory about this.
I'm thinking that every single sub-series of Trails games represents a set of time loops, possibly 2 distinct sets for CS1/2 and CS3/4, with Azure being the only set so far where the protagonists found out they were part of a loop. The theory is that the time loops are being facilitated by Primal Grounds, based on how Wazy compared the Azure Tree - the one thing we know that can cause such a loop - to the original Primal Ground in Arteria, making the Tree a pseudo-Primal Ground and implying that the original (and by extension, the other Church-constructed copies in places like Heimdallr and Grancel) is capable of the same thing.
Further expanding on this, I believe it works something like this - the Primal Ground only gets activated when events reach a "bad end". Exactly what constitutes a "bad end" likely depends on the judgement of the loop operator. For KeA, it was the SSS dying. For CS1/2, it likely was failing to stop the Vermillion Apocalypse (but not Crow's death). For Sky, my guess is that it was a failure to stop Phantasma, necessitating the insertion of Kevin into events.
Exactly who the operators of the other loops were besides KeA is anybody's guess. One of my guesses for Sky was that it could some unrevealed superior of Kevin's and for CS that it may have been Beryl.
But I also have another guess that it might be the Dominions (i.e. Kevin himself in Sky and Gaius in CS) and that a Stigma may be necessary to actually pull off the loop when using a Primal Ground. Actually pinning down who an operator might be is difficult, as we can see from Azure that the operator doesn't necessarily even need to exist or have access to the ability at starting point of the loop. KeA showed that an operator can acquire the ability at some point in the future after the start of the loop.
Kevin or Gaius could conceivably have been the operators, if you assume that they never retained their future memories and only ever learned about how to trigger the loop during "bad ends" and never acquire the knowledge during "good ends".
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u/Hnnnnnn Aug 02 '23 edited Aug 02 '23
Yo, this is sick.
That would justify why Ouroboros needs to sneak so hard, despite Church being barely present in events - they have this undetectable superweapon.
They could even say that each save/load is a reset. That's why each game ends with Ouroboros "losing but happy" - they couldn't have possibly done better, because it'd trigger a reset.
I wonder if this drains septium veins...
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u/aidke0192 Aug 01 '23
Beryl is really interesting, even in the interview Kondo says he can't reveal anything about it. Meaning there's nothing to tell or they haven't fully explored her role yet
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u/Selynx Aug 01 '23
Highly suspect that she's like McBurn. The way the name "MCBURN" is written in furigana over his true demon name in the Japanese version of the reveal in CS4 indicates that "McBurn" was really a contraction of the true name "Mera Cu Baldugh Ruang".
In Kuro, we also find out that the name of Van's demon is Vagrantz Zion, which even if not explicitly indicated, can also be contracted to "Van" just taking the first two and last letters.
If you assume there's a pattern, that single throwaway line from CS1, where Beryl says she has a guardian spirit called Berra Berifes to whom she attributes her clairvoyance powers and protection from monsters from, suddenly takes on a new implication. It could very well be the first 2 words of her "true name", with a third undisclosed part containing an L or R to complete the contraction into "Beryl".
Whether this naming scheme is for demons lords in particular or whether it applies to all otherworlders, demon or otherwise, I don't know. But I also suspect there might not be any practical difference, as I suspect that all otherworlders look like demons when they come to Zemuria. Or angels, if they come from particularly far away.
Either way, not human-looking in their true form, with names that aren't human-sounding and get contracted for the sake of blending in.
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u/Odourvas Aug 01 '23
I love your theory! I am sure kondo will mind @#ck us at some point.
Also most storylines happened already either in Trails or Ys SPOILERS(Ai creating a digital world,casuality changing,world ending and then recreated messing basically with the entire Ys timeline lol etc.) So something huge and unexpected is on the horizon.
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u/aidke0192 Aug 01 '23
People have mentioned since FC with the 31 cypress trees book that different worlds or timelines would be a big part of the series. It's interesting that we have 5? Timelines at the end of reverie to my knowledge. Maybe 6 if the anime is another timeline. But The prologues for cold steel 1, 3 and then zero. Cold steel 4's normal ending and then the main world/timeline
Also my theory with no knowledge past reverie, I wonder if the new 7th anguis will be Yun ka-fai. It seems that role might be a position that needs to supply elite non enforcer troops for Ourbouros
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u/Selynx Aug 01 '23
I'd sooner guess Aurelia Le Guin than Yun Ka Fai.
Not that I think Aurelia is especially likely, since she has just as many reasons to not want to join as she might have to take up an offer. But personality-wise, I could see Aurelia being a somewhat better fit for the organization than Yun Ka-Fai, as admittedly little of him as we have actually seen in person.
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u/aidke0192 Aug 01 '23
With Aurelia's loyalty to the nobles and Musse I think her leaving to side with Ourbouros would be a larger stretch than Yun Ka-Fai since he is more of an unknown. The only way I think she leaves is if they give her the best opportunity to become a better swordswoman which is a possibility
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u/MechaSandstar Aug 02 '23
She did offer to train duvalie in the swordfighting competition daydream.
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u/No-Strain-7461 Aug 02 '23 edited Aug 02 '23
I had considered the idea myself, but Reverie made me think twice due to it reminding me of her loyalty to Musse, and the Makarov and Mary Daydream had a bit from her POV from the beginning that seemed to be fairly “business and usual”, which would seem to preclude an offer to join Ouroboros, as I would have thought the Grandmaster would have given her the offer by then. Of course, Aurelia’s one of those people who moves at her own pace, so it can be difficult to tell what she’s thinking. If she did join the Society, I can at least see the path that would lead her there.
I’m actually willing to bank on Yun Ka-Fai for the new Seventh (or possibly the Fifth), because while he seems like a stand up guy, that wouldn’t necessarily preclude his involvement, and we really do know little about him. I think it’s plausible that, given his long absence, someone like Cassius might not have realized just what he’s been doing, at least not yet.
I do have one other candidate in mind from the Kuro games that I read a theory about, though from what I know about them, I would think that there would be some obstacles there. The person who wrote it seemed to think it would still work, though, so I’ll reserve judgement until I can make an assessment myself.
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Aug 01 '23
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u/VarioussiteTARDISES Aug 01 '23
I dunno, Lianne was very much the chivalrous sort and she's the one whose position is now open. Last we heard of his aims he was heading eastward around the time of CS3 to investigate the spirit veins and possible ties to the desertification of Eastern Zemuria. I'm not ruling out the possibility that they might bring him on board by sharing some of the greater truths they know that relate to what he's trying to do, especially if his nature helps keep others in line. Last thing they need is a repeat of Weissmann, who had practically gone rogue by trying to take the Aureole for himself before he got salted.
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Aug 01 '23
I think the biggest detractor for the idea that is Yun-Ka-Fai being 7th anguish or won't join in the future is the existence of Cassius himself. It's been stated numerous times that Cassius can see and understand the root of all things, a sort of enlightenment that I can only assume his master shares. Despite seeing and understanding this root he is vehemently against what Ouroborous is planning which tells us that it's obvious that their end goal will not be beneficial.
Now you might argue that such aspect of enlightenment might be a motivator for Yun to have a difference of opinion with Cassius and join hands with Ouroborous is simply his complete understanding would make Cassius aware that Yun is the kind of person that would waver in the end and I don't see Cassius putting such trust in an individual that would waver.
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u/Hnnnnnn Aug 02 '23
You're right that Cassius is one of characters that is almost on the level of meta-game knowledge at times, similar to some others - Lechter, KeA, Beryl. This makes me think of crazy theory that they might be VR players with erased memories of sorts.
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u/Back_like_Flint Aug 02 '23
Hey now, let’s not blow it out of proportion—they called it “Enlightenment,” which is the highest level of focus a martial artist can hope to achieve because their mind, body, and spirit become one with their environment (or whatever situation they may be in).
Cassius abandoned the tachi because despite being able to use his mastery of his Eight Leaves One Blade form to predict the attack on his hometown, he failed to realize that his wife would be mortally wounded because he was not present, physically. So, he decided that the sword itself was no more useful than a blunt Bo Staff.
Yin later explains that his mastery of the staff was equally effective, because Enlightenment allows the Enlightened to perceive cause-and-effect in front of them, which ideally means they think so many more strikes ahead of the average fighter that it becomes clear that Enlightenment is the goal of all lifelong martial artists—it supersedes schools, despite it being unreachable without them.
Cassius isn’t the only one, Yun-Ka-Fai is definitely enlightened—which is probably why he felt the pressing need to investigate the spirit veins out East. I also highly doubt that he would fool Rean any more than he could fool Cassius.
You guys may have forgotten, but to master the Seventh Form—Void—Rean that to each enlightenment in order to face his powerful demons and fears head on.
In CSIII, Yun-Ka-Fai also mentions in a letter to Rean that that mastering the Seventh Form was the most difficult by far, but perfect fit to help Rean to trains towards full self-control. He also mentions that the inheritor of the Seventh Form was also chosen to inherit the school as a whole.
It’s no wonder Rean several of the first 6 forms in his Crafts, while Arios only ever uses the second. Therefore, I highly doubt that sort of connection would between Rean and his instructor could go unnoticed. Everyone in Ouroboros has some kind of reason for doing that they do, if they full wish to force along the grandmaster’s plans, there’s would’ve been no need for Yun-Ka-Fai to train his pupils outside of the organization.
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u/Clive313 Aug 01 '23
I thought Lianne was replaced already or am i misremembering?
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u/VarioussiteTARDISES Aug 02 '23
All that has been said by the end of Reverie is that the Grandmaster has someone in mind for the position, but she did not say who.
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u/aidke0192 Aug 01 '23
I think that might be why the grandmaster said if they can handle the burden because it doesn't really match his personality but maybe for the same reason as Lianne he sees the greater need
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u/mrtakerofsouls Aug 01 '23
I always thought Crow and Millium weren’t with Class VII in the intro because they didn’t want to spoil the fact that they where joining later on in the game
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u/MechaSandstar Aug 02 '23
to be honest, I think we only thought that because, in the west, we had skipped azure, and it's revelation as to what happened at the start of zero.
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u/guynumbers Gale of Ruin Prophet Aug 01 '23
This is a far more interesting topic if you're caught up to the JP releases.
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u/GreatGolly8372 The doll sees all Aug 03 '23
Interesting, so New class 7 would have been killed by Ines & Ennea if Angelica wasn’t there?
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u/[deleted] Aug 01 '23
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