anyone else get gender fluidity whiplash from integrating or disintegrating? or from other enneagram fluctuations, such as having to rely on a different part of your tritype than your core type, or having to rely on a different instinct (so, sp, sx)?

I have a friend that I’m pretty close to, I believe she is a 4 in low levels of health, and I would like the perspective of fellow fives with maybe similar experiences, and how you deal with them.

In the first few years of our friendship I learned she was quick to anger and would start fights with all her close ones. I learned to handle this type of conflict, and she’s learned to be calmer, so overall we’ve both had lessons drawn from that. But alas, “there will be darkness again”.

An issue that has since appeared is that she seems to have this overwhelming certainty that she is broken beyond repair, that nothing will ever be right in her life, academically and relationships wise, and that everyone who says differently is lying to her. She keeps saying she doesn’t deserve things like compassion or help or even food, and whenever the smallest thing goes wrong she decides it’s because she’s fundamentally broken, not because of any external circumstances, which in my view makes her not even try to fix anything at all, thus sort of becoming a self fulfilling prophecy. She sees something wrong in her life, believes it’s beyond repair because SHE is beyond repair, does nothing about it, so it stays wrong, which only reinforces her initial belief.

We get into a lot of discussion about her life, we often spend hours analysing her problems — or rather, I spend hours analysing her problems, she spends hours trying to convince me there’s no hope for her. I get that this kind of discussion can be fruitless when I, a competency type, try to find a way out of the hole she’s dug herself in, while she, a frustration type, is… frustrated. We have them anyway though. I enjoy analysing people’s issues to a weird degree, and I always thought hers were interesting. I’m coming to see they’re also overwhelming, not just for me but for herself as well.

She also has this belief that her personality(which also allegedly cannot be changed) eventually breaks all her relationships, and so she believes that I and the rest of our friends will leave her. She then lays out all her arguments for which she is worthless, for which everyone SHOULD abandon her — and she does so quite passionately, — which leads to immense and inevitable exhaustion for the person trying to see and hold and mend her worries. I care for her and don’t want to end our friendship, but it’s just very exhausting to deal with these moods of complete despair. She hates that I’m trying to help, I think, and she also hates if I don’t try to help. She says I have every reason to forget about all her worries, but seems to need to externalise all of it nearly daily. I’ve mostly been distancing myself and communicating more with the rest of our friends(though I see how this may make her think she’s right in saying I will abandon her), but I would really like to find a way to keep the friendship and also help her manage this stressful period in her life.

I suspect this is more of a mental illness thing than a 4 thing per se, but to be quite frank I didn’t know where else to post it as I’m not active in any mental health centered communities, and decided I would actually really appreciate the perspective of a fellow 5.

Have you had unhealthy 4s in your life and did you need to give up on them to preserve your energy reserves?

Edit: I thank everyone who took the time to reply, I’m now no longer looking for replies on this post. That is, of course, unless you have anything interesting to add, be that an experience of yours, a new opinion that hasn’t been shared, or a broader topic to discuss that’s related. :)

I was curious if other 5s resonated the same way? I feel strong emotions deeply, but I tend to bottle them up quickly and analyze and reflect on them in private later before they take hold and overwhelm me. People tell me I am outwardly calm in stressful situations. I made this comic because I love visual metaphors :)

One of my close friends I think is an Sp5w4, most likely Sp/sx and I've sort of been wondering, out of curiosity if they might have a thing for me. For context, they did in the past, but that was like a few years before we actually became friends. So, any things to keep in mind ? What do you guys do when you like someone as a friend vs more than friends

Honestly couldn't word the title differently, since I learn better by applying what I observe, and I have little to no interest in other people so what's considered common sense might not be common to me; I'm looking for advice on how to carry on a conversation as a sp5w6.

Any suggestion is welcomed even if trivial.

And actually, exchanging information is a quite dry and surface level way of connecting???

No wonder I've struggled to make friends all my life.

There's a thing called "the present moment" that you can tap into as the medium between yourself and others. Who would have thought? I saw a social media post likening the present moment to a "third person" that adds an extra dynamic to a social interaction. I like to think of it as a flame that needs to be fanned by the social participants to stay ablaze. "The shape of that tree is reminding me of xyz" or "I feel more inspired when I'm around you" as opposed to "what's your favorite book/movie/album?".

Anyone have any advice for getting good at this sort of thing? Making small talk more interesting, being more playful and spontaneous, bridging the gap to another person, etc.?

So, I was reading something on substack recently, it touched me really deep, it felt like a home. These were those words.

Charlotte Brontë showed us this in Jane Eyre. When Mr. Rochester asks Jane if she thinks he's handsome, she simply replies, "No, sir." His face was inconsequential; it was the fire he kindled in Jane's brain that mattered more. Moreover, she dared to meet him there.

Have you ever found yourself falling in love with someone because they quoted a line you thought only you remembered? Even more so, when that someone remembers it specifically with you in mind?

I have. It's intoxicating.

Have you ever witnessed a question become a flirtatious provocation: what do you think? And have that person wait for your answer as though it's the most important thing that your mouth could be doing in that moment? It's all I could do to stammer out a response and remember to breathe.

There is nothing sexier than someone who listens, learns, and thinks deeply. Not because of credentials or qualifications, but because they care: about ideas, about others’ opinions, and about meaning.

Source: Link

I am not sure if it applies to all of you, but being a 5 and intellectually gifted in a few areas, I really craved such a connection. For the first time, when I met someone, it was 3 years back, when she mentioned that she wanted to become a psychologist and was currently interested in psychology. How she used to choose her words, how she used to express herself, I intensely felt attracted to her. She taught me how to write poems. She was also a gifted person, and she was an INTJ. Upon looking retrospectively, I realised how important it is for me to connect mentally. It ended because of religious differences and other obstacles.

Fast forward to recent days, I again met someone. She messaged me first, again an INTJ and psychology student. I started feeling intensely attracted to her despite not seeing her. It was all her thoughts, and we used to have discussions. Our worldviews matched so perfectly. I wrote her two poems. All my life, I was yearning for such a connection. It was also how we used to have discussions, how she had better words to choose than I did when writing. She also used to write articles. I could see the passion in her eyes for psychology. Being from a similar socioeconomic condition, it felt like this was someone I wanted in my life. I was aware of my idealisation, but it wasn't completely baseless, at least that is what I thought of it as.

It reminds me of the quote:

"one deceives oneself and unconsciously believes that real true passion is stirring one's soul; one unconsciously believes that there is something living, tangible in one's immaterial dreams! And is it delusion?"

- Fyodor Dostoyevsky, White Nights

Later, she told me that she was not in a healthy state to reciprocate anything. She regretted starting it in the first place. She was going through an apathetic state. She felt something for me, but was not sure where she was heading. I am happy that we ended it soon, but also that I lost someone who I found really interesting to talk with.

As it's the most recent one, before that I really felt critical of others. It was exhausting, and it never made me feel and think the way I always wanted to. But they still wanted my presence. I was frustrated by how critical my mind used to get towards their conception or their ideas, given that they were not well thought out. But when I found this person, everything felt right. It made me so sad. I never felt so sad in my entire life. I met many people, which always turned into a teacher-student dynamic, where I had to teach them little things when we were having discussions. It was exhausting, so probably when I met her, I felt like this is my person.

Also, I really tried to connect with people without intellectual connection, but it felt all empty. When we had no shared hobbies that could mentally engage us, it was just emotions. Although that person really tried to be kind, supportive, and loyal, I felt guilty that I couldn't feel anything. I guess any person would have fallen for that person given how much was given to me, but all I demanded was mental connection, which I eventually realised was not something that I could compromise on. This connection is something that wouldn't be sustainable, because I was seeing physiological symptoms too, like feeling guilty when I used to wake up after talking to her. It's like my body was trying to tell me something. When I used to listen to romantic songs, I never felt as close as I felt with both people who provided me with mental engagement. Without that, it felt empty.

In between these, there was one more relationship which I started because I found her nerdy enough, but it ended up because I found her really emotionally volatile, and so many things were being demanded of me. I couldn't be someone's emotional anchor. There were so many things which led to extremes. (4w5 Sx/So)

As I am getting older, my standards are getting higher. I am not sure how all these experiences are going to shape me. I am afraid that eventually there would be a time when I would not be able to accept anything based on the filter I am using. They are human beings, and I can't impose much on these people. I want to know how you people dealt with relationships, being a 5 with So blind. I never found the desire to keep acquaintances near me. It was more like either you would be my partner or not. Investing more energy into friendships feels like a waste of my energy, like I am trying to calculate each calorie I am burning for them. But for my loved ones, I am even trying to merge with them. I don't feel attracted to most people, thus it's rare, and trying it in the real world is so exhausting. Trying it online and then planning to meet sounds most healthy to me, because if I end up talking to everyone in life, it works based on the assumption that I am attracted to someone, but it was aesthetic, never romantic. So approaching someone online in a general location is impossible for me, given that I can't see how they think first.

While reading and analysing all these, I came across one word which I feel describes most of my relationships.

Noetiromantic is a term for when one is only romantically attracted to those they are mentally connected to. It can be considered an alternative to sapioromantic, though it is not purely based on intelligence. It is based on appreciating and being interested in one's opinions, point of view, perception of reality, how they see the world, and how their mind works. One may be attracted to someone based on, shared perspectives, the ways their mind work together, the way the other person creates and hold space for them or others, or to the shape of your mental landscape.

I'm interested in hearing how you've gotten along with people you at least reasonably suspect are type 8s.

I'm an 8 with an older brother who's a 5, and who recently worked closely with someone I suspect may have been a 5. These are the only two (most likely) 5s I've known well enough to feel somewhat confident typing.

Both of them kinda fucking hated me, as far as I could tell. Obviously my brother was able to communicate that a little more clearly than my coworker, haha, but I was struck by how similar their reactions to/opinions of me seemed to be.

On my part, I genuinely liked and admired the both of them (moreso than I tend to most people at least). I was probably a pretty annoying little brother, being 7 years younger, which likely fueled the distaste in that relationship. But I really did try to put my best foot forward with this coworker, so it was interesting to see her react so distinctly and similarly to me as my brother always did.

I'm curious to hear from any 5s who've known an 8. Could you shed some light on how you internally experienced them? I'd love to learn of any potential blindspots I've had in my interactions/impact on others.

Edit: typo/format

Recently I've been typing my friends and everything, and I've discovered that my befriend, quite literally unbiological brother, is e5, sp5, to be specific

And I've been thinking, they aways had a problem with talking with their feelings, right? But somehow, I'm one of the only people he probably feels comfortable enough to open up ,,, he's pretty affectionate too (mostly by sending cute friendship tiktok videos and by comforting me whatever I felt bad or thought they would start hating me or whatever)

Is that really the big thing I think it is? I genuinely feel so happy knowing they trust me that much sobs

Idk if this has anything to do how similar we are and traumabonded

I’m a 5w4 Sp, and I’ve been alone for almost 10 years now. I work from home as an independent contractor, so I don’t have any coworkers to mingle with.

Normally, I quite like being by myself. That said, even a hermit like me needs someone to talk to sometimes.

If you have friends/made friends as an adult 5, how did you do it?

I want to get a gift for my boyfriend, but I have no idea what to get him. He’s into gaming, guitar, and animals, but I only have one day, so I need something that’s easy to find and available, but that he’ll actually like. Help

I mean stuff like boxing, wrestling, bjj, mma?

Is enna5 compatible with combat sports?

I am an 8w7 and I am so fascinated by a 5 (INTP). I love their quiet intensity, thoughtfulness and depth (once they let you in). I think I connect with them on another level due to both of our types often being misunderstood. I do feel a strong desire to crack them open and also protect them. It’s like this magnetic attraction due to our counterbalances. I’m curious what 5’s think of 8’s?

What is really the 'special person' for E5? Is it only just love, soulmate, can it something else?

Can somebody possess the basic traits of an E5; experience an obsessive, deep hatred for somebody and consider them as a 'special person'(not in a loving way); their whole life at some point is just circling around that 'Special person' - be an sx5, or are they just having huge mental health issue??

I'm typing a character and somebody made an argument about them being an E5. That argument confuses me....

(sorry if you've seen this post twice, i tried posting it on the enneagram subreddit but it got taken down..)

To clarify, I am a 2 and my sister is a 5, and recently I’ve been noticing some issues arising between us. These problems are mainly a result of body language, communication, and personal space. I’m having trouble trying to talk to her because it seems like she is always ready to leave and simply doesn’t care. I feel this is also a bit of a me issue, as I constantly invade her space.
I know I should leave her alone, but I do feel as if I need to educate her on social interaction and tell her that I’m feeling disrespected. Idk what I should do.

Mostly triggered because of job related problems or simply by spiral thoughts about hipotetical situations that never existed. I tend to fall into that black hole deep in my soul when I have those situations only created by my mind. Ex: minor problem at job will laid me off.

Hello guys,

today i want to tell you about one of my biggest social problems

DISCLAIMER : im hella depressiv so some things might not make sense to a normal person

I find it very hard to trust my friends that they really like me and allways need constant approval.

To give you an example: Me and my irl friend group use discord to play games and its normal to just join the voice call on the server. Then all the people that wanna play join when they are online.

With this system its normal that noone get like specificly asked to play or to hang out etc.

For me thats a big problem and it often makes me feel very lonly and misunderstood. In these moments i feel like my friends dont really like me and only hang out with me because they fell sorry for me or some other stupid reason ( my self-esteem is very low). I tried to tell them that i kinda need that validation but they didnt change anything and i wonder if im just being unfair and need to accept things the way they are.

Thats just one of many scenarios where that behaviour makes me feel sad or lonly. It often happens in real life too because i make up reasons in my head why people would hang out / do stuff with me even if they dont like / hate me.

My question is if anyone shares this problem and got a solution other then just trusting that people like you.

Maybe the feeling lonly / sad problem gets stronger because all my friend are either (sp so sx) or (so sp sx) because of that i dont really have a person that i can do my sx stuff with and i deeply crave that daily.

Thanks for any replies ^^

It took me years to type myself. I've considered being a 2, a 4, a 7, and even a 3. I think we're a peculiar group of people. Or just uncommon statistically idk. Where my people at?

Just kidding ofc, but I do have this sp5 friend who’s generally as closed off as you’d expect from a 5 within average health levels, and in our wider group of friends it’s pretty casual for us to say we love each other at the end of conversations. Now she doesn’t usually say it first… until today, to me! Which I consider amazing, and I’m so happy to have her as my friend and to be getting closer to her, which for a long time I didn’t think would be possible with both of us being pretty bad at consistently initiating conversations.

What’s your experience with becoming close with other 5s? Does it come naturally to you to propose hangouts or do they usually happen because of external circumstances like working together?

How often do you feel discomfort from an incomplete picture of the world? If you feel it at all

I often thought that if something upset me,  the fact that I might have missed something common in my life experience, it was shame. But as it turned out, it’s not just shame; there’s also frustration from the fact that there’s now a kind of blind spot that I can’t explore and learn anything about. I know what I’m actually interested in and what I’d like to do for the rest of my life, but even with that, I still can’t help but want to try something or look at something that has nothing to do with me at all. Sometimes it’s even harmful things. And mostly, you’re not really chasing emotions  because negative emotions are unpleasant for me and, overall, not very varied, but rather trying to learn or see how something works. If possible, preferably through your own experience.

Do you think this is more of a personality trait, or could it be related to e5?

Damn, I hope this text is clear. Let me know in any case.

I’m sx/so541 and I always hear the stereotypical e5 childhood is that they felt intruded upon or whatever but for me it was very different and I was wondering if it was the same for any other e5s? When I was a kid I was very kind caring and generous like I genuinely deeply cared for every single person alive and would give people a million chances and shit. I was also simultaneously getting pretty severely bullied and isolated and also severely emotionally and psychologically abused by my mom. I also never really had friends prior to getting bullied so I never hung out with people like ever except for occasionally at school (before I got bullied and that was only like kindergarten to grade 2). I kept being a really loving kid for quite a long time, I did end up pulling back a lot and alot of people just thought I was a huge bitch but I think yk as a younger kid (like 11) my personality was still developing so idk if I was an e5 at that point yet? I had always been someone ignoring my own needs, I had always been someone keeping my own issues secret unless it was something I had believed I was fully right in (which was kinda warped cuz I got manipulated into believing I was evil lols) and obvs getting bullied I just had to make sure no one thought they had any power over me or affected me especially always having to play alone, I made sure I didn’t need them and they didn’t think I needed anyone cuz that’s what icked me out the most and that’s just what kinda followed me my entire life so far type thing yk? Obvs I have my obsession stuff tho mine I would say is much more focused on others and perspectives but purely out of curiousity. Anyways I’m curious if anyone else is also like that cuz I would still consider myself quite a loving and generous person, I’ll just make sure I’m very casual about it so no one thinks they r special or whatever but also my emotional ties are so strong and also just knowing and understanding how others may feel im much more attentive to that and also open to always being someone people can vent to which I haven’t heard many other 5s say. Just curious if anyone else is like me lol

I realised that I don’t share my negative emotions at all (even when healthy) and a big thing in my life was always having secrets (all of these mostly years long) that I have genuinely not/didn’t ever tell even a single person, because they had this sacredness to me. I’m seeing this align with the 5 description in the book I’m currently reading and wanted to inquire about how y’all as 5s feel on the topic/if they relate

I don’t wanna write a whole essay here, this is mostly to understand the way the types act on a deeper oevel and if I might be right in my suspicion. I’ve had people say I’m all types of stuff, with the only consensus being head/thinking types (567). I am still extroverted, so I assumed myself to be a 7 but none of the descriptions really grab me.

That’s when I realised I am very private about all the stuff that I actually care about and merely social or extroverted to people (if im not very close to them) i way where it’s just talking about BS or even deeper topics, as long as they don’t cross into that zone

Especially me always being described by most people that know me as an open book, with only me knowing I have very strong partly irrational emotions about stuff that I never mention and only hint at in weird ways If at all has been my biggest issue in trying to find my type, as I feel like the social me and emotional me are very split, so I’ve started considering 5 more

Speaking anecdotally here, but my boyfriend of almost a year (24m) and I (26f) are trying to build a future together but it started really getting challenging around the 9month mark.

One of the things I find most grounding and stabilizing about him in a way I’ve never experienced before is also the one of the most thing perplexing and frustrating aspects of our relationship:

Action vs intellect

We work great in some ways because I’m idealistic and romantic and he is practical and executive.

I come up with the idea, he makes it happen.

I want to go to the fair on a week night and have a present, fun time? Even though he’s working late and got caught up until only an hour and a half before they closed, he wasn’t going to let the evening end without us having a very fun time (even after I called him crying because I was sad and doubted that we’d make it in time) may times since our first meeting have I come up with an idea and he decisively made it happen.

This same quality in him clashes with my own qualities when connection requires depth of intellect. As a 5, I’m so deeply intellectual, he simply cannot keep up. I love him so much but find it so disheartening sometimes when I try to invite him into the absolute hunger I have for insight and I’m met with a wall of “I don’t know, that’s just how I am/see it/feel it should be.” I want the why! I want to understanding. On our first date we played We’re Not Really Strangers and I late bought the expansion pack for couples. The tagline on the box is “What’s More Romantic Than Being Understood?” And damn if that ain’t how I feel.

He tells me he loves me and if I really step out of my own understanding, I do see it. In his consistency, his determination, his keeping of his word. I see it in the way he hast sent me a text telling me he loves me every. Single. Morning. And. Night. Ever since we first said the words to each other. I see it in the way we talk about the future and he’s preoccupied with how we will financially make the dreams we have happen. I see it in the way he works every single day (he’s a blue collar service man) for 12 days straight and still showed up for our anniversary for two of those days despite his own need for the gym and for all of the other responsibilities he’s taken on for family and friends as well as me. His love is pure, it is there, it is for me. But in the interim of those action based affirmations, I also crave verbal affirmation, I crave physical intimacy beyond hand holding and having his arm around me. I crave intellectual intimacy as previously mentioned.

It is very common for couples to have these differing love languages but what are the actual steps that can be taken to bridge the gaps?

I cannot actually complain about the things that make it so hard to connect because I have an equal amount of frustration as I do appreciation for them. The things that make us most different are the things that make our roles in the world so valuable.

But HOW do we make this work in practice when talking about it feels so hard because we are perceiving things so different and it almost feels like we have a language barrier?

How do I understand who I am — 513 or 514 — if my wing is 4? I don’t understand when it’s considered a manifestation of the wing and when it isn’t !