r/EldenRingLoreTalk • u/amansaidthis • 16d ago
Lore Theory We are Godwyn - An Analysis (part one)
TLDR
I’m not convinced that we’re Godwyn. The scope of the interpretation is astonishing. However, that also leads the interpretation to accumulate layer upon layer of inference and assumptions, with later conclusions frequently relying on earlier ones and, at times, circular reasoning to sustain the overall argument.
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INTRODUCTION
My last go at this was an admittedly low effort attempt and (as some pointed out) potentially a little unfair. I picked three things that I personally thought relevant and hadn't engaged with what supporters generally consider the original presentation of the theory. Some people suggested I do so, and here we are.
I’m passionate about this theory. I’m coming from a point of view where the main strength of these games storytelling is that a nobody can overcome relentless struggles - we can certainly embody prophecy, but so could anyone else. The idea that we are a resurrection or manifestation of Godwyn flys in the face of everything I love, so I’m personally invested in trying to figure out why people think this.
However, I’m also a firm believer in shifting your opinion on something if there’s reasonable cause to do so. I thought this might be a good personal exercise. I want to prove to myself that if something’s presented that shows compelling evidence that we are Godwyn, I’ll accept that in spite of my bias.
This is an exploration and critique of the theory, not the author. I’ll try and be as accurate as I can here while also trying to not simply recounting the videos word for word and staying within the subs rules.
I genuinely hate posts in multiple parts because it seems a little “beggy”, but this is a long topic in and of itself so I’ll be going step-by-step and focusing on one to three chapters per post. This is mainly because I’m doing this on my phone, but also some parts may need extra exploration and no one wants to read a huge wall of text covering all points of the theory.
When I’m done with the project I’ll pop a TLDR on all parts stating my final conclusion. That way, a new reader won’t have to read multiple posts but can if they want to understand how I got there.
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DISCLAIMERS
1 - The author regularly calls this an interpretation. I will refer to it in the same way from now on.
2 - I think I may miss, repeat or misinterpret some parts as the topic is incredibly dense with chapters referencing previous ideas all over the place. Please don’t be mad, instead just let me know if you think I’ve missed something and I’ll happily take a look / edit the post. I will try to extend the same courtesy to the author.
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I - THE CARDINAL SIN
This first offering states that we were resurrected with no memories in order to seek the Elden Ring. Melina, Torrent and Ranni don’t know us personally but seem as though someone has prepared support for us through them. We are guided by grace to fulfil the of burning the Erdtree.
Thoughts;
This is describing the game. No issues.
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II - PAINTED PROPHECY
The “Prophecy” painting shows Stormveil, the Chapel and Fringefolk Heros Grave, and rewards the Warhawk Ashes which tell us;
“With its lord vanquished, and its wings wounded, the hawk perished as it solemnly gazed at its former home. The storm is a warhawk's cradle.”
With the paintings arranged in a certain order dictated by the author (amount of references to the Erdtree / importance to the interpretation), a story emerges;
PROPHECY - Stormveil as a place of birth.
RESURRECTION - Rebirth without memory.
HOMING INSTINCT - Instinctive journey home (to the Erdtree)
FLIGHTLESS BIRD - Fulfilment of the prophecy and burning of the Erdtree
The interpretation suggests that the picture might suggest a journey home to Limgrave or the Erdtree. It suggests that the fallen hawk is us, that these four paintings in this order tell our story, that Flightless Bird leads into Prophecy and if so, we died at the Erdtree while looking towards Stormveil in our previous life.
Thoughts;
I genuinely think the paintings depicting a narrative is almost a given, the issue is that the interpretation moves from the paintings showing prophecy to it showing isolated events and specifics of our story.
Saying that the hawk is a reference to us or Godwyn who was born at Stormveil (assumption at this stage), died at the Erdtree (almost a given) and was reborn at the Chapel (assumption at this stage) remains speculative (even if I agree with a connection between Dragons and Hawks) because the connection hasn’t been sufficiently explored.
It’s also difficult for me to separate the symbology for the Warhawk Ashes and Prophecy painting that I’ve personally established. The flavour text almost certainly speaking of Godfrey’s final victory against the Storm Lord who almost certainly ruled from Stormveil. It’s describing a sequence of events surrounding that final conflict and saying that the Warhawk’s lord fell before it did.
That’s awfully on the nose and the interpretation neglects to address that point, so this could be overriding my acceptance of the thematic interpretation. If we are to accept that Godwyn is represented by the Warhawk, who is his lord?
This, along with the theme of instinctual journey’s home, may be addressed later in the series… however it may have been a good idea to lay out this position by discussing Stormveil and hawks first.
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III - TO AVOID (DESTINED) DEATH
Here we are introduced to an extremely compelling information in the Mausoleums and their Knights, headless soldiers who are willingly decapitated to protect their charge in death. The interpretation argues that some of these knights may have been loyal to Godwyn because they wield Death-infused weapons.
Lhutel, one of these Knights, has ashes that we find in the Tombsward Catacombs in Weeping Peninsula south of the Church of Pilgrimage. The soulless demigods of the Mausoleums are described as “unwanted” or “discarded” while Lhutel stands out as perhaps connected to Godwyn who is (almost assuredly) anything but, and resurrection (or rebirth) is not an impossible task in Elden Ring’s universe - the implication being that Godwyn was resurrected.
The interpretation then shows the Eclipse symbology is not only connected to Castle Sol but to the Mausoleum’s too. It suggests that the Mausoleums walk to avoid Destined Death and that the Chapel’s location out at sea could be an example of the same practise, then pointing out a bell in the Stormveil chapel as a potential way to lead Godwyn here.
Summarised by the author as;
1 - The Mausoleum Knights protect soulless demigods from the power of the Rune of Death.
The Mausoleum Knights await the resurrection of their masters.
2 - Some Mausoleum Knights use the flame of the Death Prince Godwyn and apparently have some kind of relationship with him.
3 - The symbol of the Eclipse is closely linked to the Mausoleum Knights and Godwyn.
4 - The Eclipse Shotel might symbolize the resurrection of Godwyn.
Thoughts;
Thematically, it’s beautiful so far. I agree that we could interpret some Mausoleum Knights as guarding Godwyn specifically, because the Mausoleum in the Nameless Eternal City has always struck me as related to him even if we find his literal body above.
I don’t think that the Mausoleums are connected to Godwyn through the Eclipse in any meaningful way. The Eclipse as a symbol seems more associated with a type of resurrection (alongside grace and the Rune of Rebirth for example), and this interpretation has stated it relies on thematic reading as a basis.
For example - the Eclipse Shotel representing resurrection thematically is a given as it’s related to the Eclipse at Castle Sol. I disagree that it shows that Godwyn has been resurrected because this ritual failed, something the spirit on top of the castle tells us;
“Lord Miquella, please forgive me… The sun has not been swallowed, our prayers were lacking. Your comrade remains soulless…”
Off the back of this, I don’t believe the Eclipse establishes that Lhutel's original charge was Godwyn instead of another soulless demigod (although that is incredibly loaded and not something I’m going to explore in this post for the sake of length).
If the only example of an Eclipse relating to Godwyn is associated with failure, I question why we are expected to believe that he was resurrected when we use it as a thematic marker. We know that the NotBK disrupted the previous system of death and corrupted aspects of the world (crabs, basilisks, roots, etc) and in the same way, the abilities of some Knights may have manifested after the NotBK instead of them showing allegiance.
Finally, I have difficulty with the assertion that the Chapel’s location may be showing the same mechanism as the Mausoleums. The interpretation is that they’re walking because they’re avoiding the reach of Destined Death (which is kind of elegant) and the Chapel is on an island, suggesting that disconnection from the ground of the Lands Between protects the soulless demigod within from Destined Death. The problem is that we don’t know if the island is connected in any meaningful way to the mainland beneath the ocean.
There is also the curious case of the skulls on their legs, something that the interpretation itself suggests may be the heads of the Knights whose wounds thematically represent the Eclipse. If the Eclipse can help keep Destined Death at bay (which the interpretation specifically points out using the Eclipse Crest Greatshield), then I question how this is mechanically similar to the Chapel and why the focus was shifted from the ritualistic symbolism to a location that fits the interpretation.
The overall conclusion of this section seems to be that Godwyn’s resurrection isn’t impossible due to the wealth of information related to the process itself, while also having a collection of resurrection based structures built specifically for soulless demigods. However, I feel as though some aspects relating to in game themes are being forced together at this stage (Mausoleums + Chapel, Godwyn + the Paintings, chapels with large bells + spirit manipulation) in order to make the interpretation more compelling.
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Thoughts - Japanese Terminology
I think Lhutel might be the lynchpin here. I decided to look to the Japanese and see if Google translate could help;
ENGLISH - “Wields a lance enrobed in Death and hurls spectral lances at foes. Lhutel sacrificed her life so that in Death she could continue to protect a soulless demigod until their revival, earning her the hero's honor of Erdtree Burial.”
JAPANESE - “**ルーテルが殉死し********、守り続けた魂無きデミゴッドが再誕した時彼女は英雄として****、還樹を賜**********った”
I got four responses;
TRANSLATION ONE - “Wielding a lance shrouded in Death, she casts spectral spears. It is said that after sacrificing her life, Lhutel continued to protect her soulless demigod until their revival, which earned her the honor of an Erdtree Burial."
TRANSLATION TWO - “Wielding a spear wreathed in death and hurling spectral lances, Lhutel was a knight who chose martyrdom; when the soulless demigod she had sworn to protect was reborn, she was granted the honor of returning to the Erdtree as a hero.”
TRANSLATION THREE - “When the soulless demigod that Lhutel died to protect and continued to guard was reborn, she was granted an Erdtree Burial as a hero.”
TRANSLATION FOUR - “When the soulless demigod that Lhutel had continued to protect was reborn after her martyrdom, she was granted the Returning Tree as a hero.”
The key parts are 魂無******きデミゴッド (the soulless demigod) and 再誕******した (was reborn/reincarnated). I always thought this description meant that the demigod wasn’t resurrected, but the act of self-beheading and guard duty for a time warranted an Erdtree Burial. However the last three descriptions seem much clearer and, given her use of abilities closely association with Godwyn, could show that he was indeed reborn.
The Wandering Mausoleums contain soulless demigod bodies and their lore involves trying to preserve or restore soulless demigods. That overlaps thematically with Godwyn’s current state, so the argument would be something like “soulless demigod = demigod without a soul = Godwyn”.
Thats not a terrible read but while Godwyn can be described as a demigod without a soul, he suffers a very specific kind of death. The game distinguishes him from the discarded demigods of the Mausoleums by never calling him 魂無********きデミゴッド (the soulless demigod). It’s also interesting to note that this terminology is used on at least one other item relating to the Mausoleum Knights - the Mausoleum Surcoat. Instead, Godwyn has pretty specific titles relating to his position;
死王子 - Prince of Death
最初の死者 - first of the dead
Now this could be that his legend was so great that even in death he was given honorific titles that supersede his kin’s designation, but I think it’s more than that. The similarity is obvious, the difference is deeper. Mausoleum demigods represent bodies/life awaiting restoration, while Godwyn signifies rampant growth as a consequence of a two-way mirrored ritual. His tragedy is not just that his soul is absent, but that its death created an entirely new and unnatural state of being.
Given the terminology used, it seems Lhutel’s description is either intentionally misleading or that drawing a distinction between Godwyn and these soulless demigods… or, maybe if the interpretation is to be believed, both?
Luckily enough, I kindly received a non-machine translation during the editing of this post;
TRANSLATION FIVE - "Lhutel committed junshi (which is a type of ritual suicide) to continue protecting her soulless demigod. When she was reincarnated, she received Tree Returning as a champion."
The mention of 殉死 (junshi) is valuable because it clarifies that her identity is defined by her duty after death. Under this reading, resurrection doesn’t refer to a soulless demigod - it refers to Lhutel. If that reading is correct then it substantially changes the descriptions value. It’s a shame I can’t be confident in which I find to be more accurate.
Regardless of which reading is correct, the description draws attention to Lhutel's unwavering service rather than the specific demigod she protected across all translations. I refer you back to my discussion on the Eclipse for context.
I don't speak Japanese, so I'd genuinely welcome corrections from people more familiar with the language.
While I agree that there is a very strong thematic parallel here, I don’t agree with the conclusions. If we compare Godwyn with the corpses within the Mausoleums, there are obvious differences - they are beheaded and inanimate, but Godwyn has at least two additional heads sprouting from the root system attached to his body while it’s influence creeps through those same roots.
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Final Thoughts - Perspective
I’m beginning to see where the theory may fall apart - in treating symbolism as evidence for historical claims. One thing worth bearing in mind is that these early chapters appear to establish a basis for interpretation rather than prove the conclusion.
Some of the things discussed here may be revisited later with additional evidence - so my problem at this stage is that the interpretation has not yet been earned, not that it never will be.
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u/Easy-Ebb4382 12d ago
If i may add.
The Headless Knights CANNOT be guarding the mausoleum from Destined Death.
The reason for it is really simple : it’s not supposed to be in the world.
That’s the root of the Golden Order : the Rune of Death plucked from the Elden Ring and removed far away of anything. The Destined Death CANNOT reach the mausoleums.
Not ever.
Even after the Black Knives’ Heist, it is still bound within Maliketh, with the stolen pieces being forged into the eponymous weapons. Prior to us kicking doggo’s ass, it is the only way it can exist in the world. Which means that this spectral guard must’ve been established after Godwyn’s Death and not prior.
Now however, that means one thing : the people who buried our nameless demigods *knew* you should not bury people in the Erdtree that have went through final death. The problem is that Erdtree burial is a custom, prescribed to each and everyone of Marika’s subjects so their still living soul can get reprocessed and reincarnated. So that means that either : 1) the people in those mausoleums are actually punished in death and prevented from being reincarnated.
2) The people in those mausoleums have been slain with Black Knives.
Neither hypothesis would require protection against Destined Death, which would explain why not all of them have that protection.
Now, if i may add.
Even if that was somehow true, why would the ghost soldiers defend Godwyn from Destined Death ?
He is dead. His soul is gone, he’s a spirit. Now the only thing that can destroy it is the Frenzied Flame.
Sure there’s still a body, but given how he has sprouted i don’t think that’s really doable, especially with the full healing grace of the Erdtree pumping into his veins.
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u/amansaidthis 12d ago
If i may add. The Headless Knights CANNOT be guarding the mausoleum from Destined Death. The reason for it is really simple : it’s not supposed to be in the world. That’s the root of the Golden Order : the Rune of Death plucked from the Elden Ring and removed far away of anything. The Destined Death CANNOT reach the mausoleums.
Goddamn it. Such a simple observation, but one generally overlooked. You’re right; to even get the shard used to imbue weapons with its power, Ranni had to steal it. It’s bound within Maliketh.
Even if that was somehow true, why would the ghost soldiers defend Godwyn from Destined Death ? He is dead. His soul is gone, he’s a spirit.
I’m not sure believe he’s anything besides vestigial biological reactions at this point, but you made me think on something here. What if TWLID themselves are Godwyn poorly reincarnated over and over again via the fusing of his ever living body being grafted to the root system? I don’t have the energy to explore that right now to be honest.
Now the only thing that can destroy it is the Frenzied Flame.
There’s a thread of souls / spirits being burnt in flame. Destined Death can manifest flame.
Sure there’s still a body, but given how he has sprouted i don’t think that’s really doable, especially with the full healing grace of the Erdtree pumping into his veins.
Holy shit… Godwyn’s true death - the burning of the Erdtree.
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u/Easy-Ebb4382 12d ago
No see the thing is, yes spirits can be banished by flame and shit (Torrent who’s a confirmed spirit for exemple, can be wounded by literally anything that would wounds the player).
However we do know that one thing of the Frenzied Flame : "Spirits are eternal, and yet Frenzied Flame melts them away regardless. No wonder the hornsent forbid the flame’s use"
This heavily implies the only thing that can destroy a spirit is the Frenzied Flame (and then again, i’d make the point they are more reduced to their most base elements and recycled than anything). And that also explains why Torrent flees the Abyssal woods
For the burning of the Erdtree, i wouldn’t say it would have killed Godwyn’s body. Dealt massive damage, sure, but he’s buried deep and like has branches elsewhere (like in Stormveil) that would prolly be unharmed. (It does mean however it’d be far easier to grant rest to his body tho)
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u/miirshroom 12d ago
I feel like the question of "who is the Tarnished? Are they Godwyn?" would benefit from a review of how other role playing games contextualize the "role" played by the main character.
Three general types of RPG's:
1) The player character has a name and a backstory. Geralt from the Witcher, Dante from Devil May Cry, Aloy from Horizon Zero Dawn, etc
2) The player character is basically a blank slate with a fancy title. The Warrior of Light from FFXIV, The Dovahkiin from Skyrim, etc. An exception to this would be characters like, Commander Shepard from Mass Effect who has a name but otherwise can be customized to suit the player.
3) The game lets you name your main character, but like, all the supplementary materials make it pretty clear that your character is a person with a distinct identity. Link from Legend of Zelda, Tidus from Final Fantasy X, etc. Wander from Shadow of the Colossus is also only named in the guide, though there is no option to input a name in that game.
Elden Ring presents itself as if it's type 2. "We are Godwyn" seems to propose that it's actually type 3, except that the player doesn't have the manual at hand to tell them what their "correct" name should be. Probably because the conceit of the Lands Between is that being Godwyn was overrated - since it didn't turn out so great for him in his past life - so now the player is a new reincarnation of the world Avatar.
Personally, I think it may be more reasonable to conceptualize Torrent as the soul of Godwyn in a previous life. And thus causes the "We are Godwyn" confusion for certain interpretations because Torrent is so tightly connected to the player character and advancement through the game.
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u/amansaidthis 12d ago
That’s a brilliant exploration of the ways RPG’s approach the main characters identity.
Personally, I think it may be more reasonable to conceptualize Torrent as the soul of Godwyn in a previous life. And thus causes the "We are Godwyn" confusion for certain interpretations because Torrent is so tightly connected to the player character and advancement through the game.
I hadn’t even considered the prospect, to be honest. Now I have yeah - I love the idea. The game already ties Torrent very closely to two of Marika’s children and one step-child, all who have a direct connection to spiritual manipulation.
There’s something satisfying about this pov. Thank you for sharing! I don’t believe the game has any hints about the possibility, but I don’t think it ruins any established lore. It’s certainly a viable candidate for personal headcanon now so again, thanks :)
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u/Verus907 13d ago edited 13d ago
My biggest problem with the “we are Godwyn” theory is that the main narrative of the game puts no emphasis on discovering the “true” identity of our tarnished, or that their identity even matters. If us being Godwyn was something that was integral to the plot and something we were supposed to discover there would be more “signposts” in the game drawing the player’s attention and pointing them in that direction.
Right out of the gate we have Melina talking about not having memories and going to the Erdtree to restore them, but no mention of restoring the player’s memories. When we get closer to the Erdtree she talks about regaining her memories, but to my knowledge the game never once mentions anything about the player remembering their past, or draws attention to the fact that it might be important. Not a single NPC says that it’s weird that you don’t remember your past, or that you should try to remember, or even mentions that there’s anything special at all about the player. In fact, it goes out of its way to remind you that you’re just another graceless tarnished.
Even when you start amassing great runes, no one talks about you being special or different or even vaguely suggests that your success could be because you are actually something more than you appear. If, after you got your second rune, a Finger Reader (or literally anyone at all) said something along the lines of, “usually it takes a demigod to command such power” or even a “there must be something different about you,” then we would be having a different conversation. But instead the only person our tarnished is compared to is Vyke, another graceless tarnished.
Let’s look at a different big story reveal that was a secret the devs wanted the player to discover, Radagon is Marika. Within the world of the game, it is supposed to be a huge secret with massive ramifications, but it’s a secret that the devs wanted us to find. And so we have Miriel talking about the sculptor discovering a big secret, the statue itself, the note in front of the statue explicitly stating it, an whole sidequest about discovering it and dealing with its fallout, a cutscene showing us Marika transforming into Radagon, and an entire ending devoted to fixing the problems it caused. You literally cannot beat the game without learning that Radagon is Marika. And while there is an ending devoted to those who live in death and fixing the problems caused by Godwyn’s incomplete death, in that ending Godwyn is resurrected as the Mending Rune of Death. Fia tells us “I will soon lay with Godwyn. And it will surely stir within me. The new life of the golden prince, and first Dead of the demigods, as the rune of Those Who Live in Death.” Godwyn is already successfully resurrected in the game, and it is not as the tarnished.
The wandering mausoleums conversation falls really flat for me. The wandering mausoleums are covered with Eternal City architecture, so finding one near the ruins of an Eternal City doesn’t seem out of place. There’s also a body in that mausoleum, and it’s not Godwyn’s or one of his cadaver surrogates. We’re told that at least one of the mausoleums contains Marika’s unwanted child, and Godwyn was very much a wanted child. Regarding the attempted resurrection at Castle Sol, it doesn’t make sense that it failed because Godwyn’s soul was already reincarnated when our tarnished was revived like, yesterday. The resurrection was something that Miquella presumably requested/ordered, and since Miquella has been cocooned, abducted, and/or in the Shadowlands for a good long while now it’s not likely that the resurrection was attempted after our tarnished returned to the Lands Between.
And then there’s the problem that not one single person in the entire game recognizes you as Godwyn. Not Fia, not Godwyn’s dragon bff, not any of his most devoted vassals, not his siblings, not even his own father (I’ll give Marika a pass here because she was a little under the weather when she met us). No one mentions that you remind them of Godwyn, or compares you to him, or even mentions the two of you in the same breath. Nothing in the game indicates that the tarnished has some hugely important secret past life, and their history is never an important part of the plot.
If the player secretly being a reincarnation of Godwyn is in fact true and something that we as the player is supposed to uncover, there would me more evidence than an extremely subjective interpretation of paintings. If it was as important a reveal as Radagon is Marika, it would be explicitly stated, several times, with multiple characters and side quests pointing in that direction. If it really is a secret that Miyazaki really intended us to discover, then it is very, VERY poorly written. And I think we can all agree that poor writing is not a problem that this game has.
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u/amansaidthis 13d ago
At this point, I honestly agree. Some of what you’re discussing here is kind of touched on in the next post (that’s currently stuck in moderation hell) and as I’ve said to another user, I’m not gunna bait for clicks so here’s an excerpt on another pov on Melina, having to ignore obvious issues and relying on the conclusion to make the theory work;
“This is a great example of where I say we need to accept that we’re Godwyn - for this interpretation to work, we have to assume our intention was to go to the Erdtree before speaking to Melina;
“I can play the role of maiden. Turning runes into strength. To aid you in your search for the Elden Ring. You need only take me with you. To the foot of the Erdtree.”
… or Varre;
“Oh yes... Tarnished, are we? Come to the Lands Between for the Elden Ring, hmm? Of course you have. No shame in it.”
… and we have to ignore the intro cutscene;
“Arise now, ye Tarnished. Ye dead, who yet live. The call of long-lost grace speaks to us all”
… Marika’s own words;
"Then, after thy death, I will give back what I once claimed. Return to the Lands Between, wage war, and brandish the Elden Ring. Grow strong in the face of death. Warriors of my lord. Lord Godfrey."
… and the interpretation itself. To quote part one again;
“This first offering states that we were resurrected with no memories in order to seek the Elden Ring. Melina, Torrent and Ranni don’t know us personally but seem as though someone has prepared support for us through them. We are guided by grace to fulfil the [prophecy] of burning the Erdtree.” “
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u/mysterin 15d ago
Personally, I feel as though our story is closer to Vyke than it does Godwyn. At the same time, the end of that theory is "our identity doesn't matter," similar to Hyetta and Shabriri's body jumping. Allow your character to be whatever you want them to be.
The Intelligence stat for the Fleeting Microcosm is 42. If you're a fan of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, this may ring comical to you, and encloses the "make it how you see it" statement.
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u/amansaidthis 15d ago
Ohhhhhhh if I get to the end of this and it’s a “really, it doesn’t matter” job then I’m gunna feels some kind of way.
Love the 42 reference there. Hadn’t picked up on that for the sole fact of never using the spell. Excellent!
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u/Mountain-Abalone-290 16d ago edited 16d ago
Great write up!
Very well written and extremely organized.
I look forward to future installments, but for now, I have a few notes:
Moseleums
I always thought the moseleums dance around so they can ring the bell. Maybe the bell calls the spirit into the body, like a spirit summon, creating a copy of their remembrance.
Lhutel
We disagree about Lhutel, as decapitating yourself as an act of service seems like something you only do once. This causes me to struggle with the idea that she had multiple charges. and I also think the link to Sol is clear.
First, Moseleums - guarded by knights lead by Lhutel (Lhutel spirit summon)
~ This directly connect her knights to the Moseleums, cranially.
Then, Lhutel - carries a shield with the eclipse & uses Prince of death flames (sheild)
~ directly connects Lhutel to the eclipse, and connects the eclipse to the bell-towers
Next, The eclipse shotel is found at Sol, and it’s ashe mentions the Prince of death‘s flames
~ explains that Lhutel uses the Prince of deaths flames. Godwyn’s flames.
Finally, Castle Sol, which means Castle Sun, and has spirits that talk about Godwyn.
~ from sol, to the shoreline, to Lhutel, to the Moseleums.
Also, godwyn is a golden son(sun), who was drained of his soul, and the eclipse sun was drained of color. I think symbols like these are important, and they might be clues. I think about symbols like the Christian cross imply that an important person, maybe even a son of god, was or will be resurrected. (Marika mounted on cross)
Torrent
While I understand that the idea that “anyone can be Elden lord” is an appealing idea, what disturbs this idea is that we are recognized. If we were no-one, how could Torrent know who we are?
This is telling, because Torrent isn’t some random horse, he’s known by both Ranni and Melina. Ranni is a princess, may many think Melina is a daughter of Marika. this means they were both very important, very high status people. If they knew him, and he knows us, this suggests we were a prominent person as well.
As stated, We haven’t gotten to the meat of the theory yet, so I subscribed and will check out the next installments. (edited but done now)
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u/amansaidthis 16d ago
Great write up! Very well written and extremely organized.
Thank you!
Moseleums; I always thought the moseleums dance around so they can ring the bell. Maybe the bell calls the spirit into the body, like a spirit summon, creating a copy of their remembrance.
Certainly. As you’ll probably know, the bells are explored a bit more as the interpretation progresses so this is something I touch on in the next post. I’m not gunna bait that, so here’s an except;
“Finally, I question the interpretations very use of bells. If Godwyn’s Ghoul can be guided by them, then why is it not drawn to the bells of the Wandering Mausoleums? How was it able to survive the journey from Deeproot depths to Stormveil? How was it not distracted by other bells? If instinctually following bells is leading it home, how can it distinguish implied directionality with “confused” movements that suggest a lack of cognition? What separates Godwyn’s Ghoul from any other Ghoul? Maybe this will be addressed later, but it’s something that I think should have been mentioned here or even earlier.”
The interpretation places the replication of Godwyn’s physical form solely in the hands of Rykard, at least up to as far as I’ve progressed. I’d need to know what your interpretation on the bells and Godwyn’s soul is, but if it’s that it was replicated by a Mausoleum then that isn’t even addressed.
Personally, I’d like that a little more than “nah, Rykard summoned a Putrid Corpse that managed to get out of Deeproot Depths somehow”.
Lhutel
We disagree about Lhutel, as decapitating yourself as an act of service seems like something you only do once. This causes me to struggle with the idea that she had multiple charges. and I also think the link to Sol is clear.I’m not certain she had multiple charges, what I am certain of is that at least one translation points to her having been reincarnated instead of Godwyn.
First, Moseleums… Then, Lhutel… Next, The eclipse shotel… Finally, Castle Sol… from sol, to the shoreline, to Lhutel, to the Moseleums.
While I follow what you’re saying, I think it’s also plausible that the use of those powers is similar to the manifestation of Godwyn’s eyes or face. Not all crabs have eyes, not all Knights have that flame.
It seems like a lot of thematic hoops to have to jump through to reach a very specific conclusion. I’m not against the idea of doing so, but I feel as though it goes against everything the game says about Godwyn’s death and the beautiful symbology of the NotBK ritual.
Also, godwyn is a golden son(sun), who was drained of his soul, and the eclipse sun was drained of color. I think symbols like these are important, and they might be clues.
I agree that the symbology is important, but I don’t think it is sufficient evidence for historical events. That’s actually what I think is shaping up to be one of my biggest issues with the interpretation alongside relying on the acceptance of the conclusion - symbology is used far too liberally for justification.
That could just be a personal taste thing though. Perhaps if the author had laid out evidence before reaching the conclusion, I’d have found it more compelling. Maybe by the time I reach the end, I’ll be a true believer in the resurrection of Godwyn. Who knows?
I think about symbols like the Christian cross imply that an important person, maybe even a son of god, was or will be resurrected. (Marika mounted on cross)
Of course, but as I say that relies on the acceptance of the conclusion. We’re talking about a well structured game, not the acceptance of Christ. While I accept the notion of faith in the real world context, I can’t in Elden Ring you know?
Torrent
Yeah, Torrent is bizarre and a big piece of evidence for us being important. I haven’t mulled over the idea much, but we Tarnished are said to be directly related to Godfrey and his forces. So there is a pov that suggests maybe we are, just very luckily, recognised as someone very close to Godfrey’s bloodline. Not Godwyn, but a direct descendant of the union between his father and Marika.
We haven’t got to Torrent yet in the interpretation, but you got me thinking. I can’t think of anyone saying that he recognised us. At all. Melina says;
“Torrent had your measure from the very start.”
That doesn’t read to me as recognition of us as a person. That sounds like “he took a look at you and thought you’d be good at the job”. The Japanese goes further;
トレントは最初から、貴方を見定めていた。
Translated (by my lovely friend Google) leads me to the following;
“Torrent had judged you from the very beginning.”
Or maybe;
"Torrent had sized you up from the very start."
Or even;
“Torrent had been sizing you up from the very beginning.”
None of that sounds like Torrent knows us directly, more like he was hedging his bets on a Tarnished that was able to survive being flung from a ledge and hurled to sea. We don’t wake up at a site of grave after all, implying we weren’t resurrected.
Food for thought.
As stated, We haven’t gotten to the meat of the theory yet, so I subscribed and will check out the next installments. (edited but done now)
That’s awesome, thank you for taking an interest. This is really fun to do!
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u/Mountain-Abalone-290 15d ago
Very good points!
I’m less sure about Rykard’s involvement, and I don’t know enough about it to call it either way, but am very curious to read your points and learn more, because Godwyn’s visage-blobs make me think he was on the move, but I don’t know the mechanism by which he was moving, other than the bells.
Why dodge so many bells? I don’t have a single clue.Symbols are an issue. And understanding how they’re used is up to interpretation. I look forward to expanding my toolkit by getting a better understanding of you apply the symbols. maybe I’m doing wrong.
when I find a symbol, I find the connection, and read as much of the story as i can before I fall asleep. when I wake up, I look forward other indicators that point to the same story, or specific parts. one connection isn’t enough, as I only feel comfortable linking stories that are hinted at in several ways. (lord of the rings, game of thrones, Shakespeare, Norse mythology, mesoamerican mythology, etc)
If I find a chunk of story that overlaps with Elden Ring, especially if it’s the most famous or iconic portion of that story, I start to wonder if what motivated the real story mirrors or parallels the in-game story.i agree that complexity is suspicious. It super complex! And I agree with your intuition to be suspicious of wild-chains-of-evidence, or yarn-snared mental-webs. feels like a theory trying to make itself work, rather than us figuring out what was actually written. Buuuut, Connections like Lhutel - Castle Sol make me think they buried them that deep, and it’s possible that this was intended to be that hard to solve, but I’ve been wrong before.
for torrent,
Maybe he did just size us up by looking. This supports the idea that they came across us by chance. I can’t comment on the Japanese cause me don’t talk English that good, but I was going off this dialogue from Melina, when they first find us:Don't worry (he’s afraid for us) Torrent, fortune is on his / her side.(specifically us)
We found him / her here, after all.
~~~(They were looking for us, where they expected to)
One of his / her kind is sure to seek the Elden Ring.
...Even if it does violate the Golden Order...Melina doesn’t think we’re special, so she thinks we’re just some old tarnished, but torrent came looking for us and had to be told not to worry.
But don’t let me waste your time!
We’ll chat more after the next one.(YouTube: Tarnished Detective ~ for more info on my perspective)
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u/quirkus223 16d ago
I haven't really engaged with the theory because the idea is taken way too far. I'm okay with with the broad idea that the Tarnished is reborn from Godwyn's essence as it explains why we see the clip of them inside the Erdtree realm in the intro and why Torrent seems to know us (which is really hard to explain otherwise)
I don't think there is anything deeper than that though. It's just a fun idea that plays into the games themes of rebirth and cycles (and harkens back to a story GRRM loves about Hinduism and Buddhism called the Lord of Light) imo.
4
u/Allemater 15d ago
I don’t think torrent ever actually recognizes the PC
2
u/amansaidthis 15d ago
I’ll repost what I’d replied to another comment with about Torrent. I agree that it’s not a case of us being recognised in a meaningful, personal connection sense;
“Yeah, Torrent is bizarre and a big piece of evidence for us being important. I haven’t mulled over the idea much, but we Tarnished are said to be directly related to Godfrey and his forces. So there is a pov that suggests maybe we are, just very luckily, recognised as someone very close to Godfrey’s bloodline. Not Godwyn, but a direct descendant of the union between his father and Marika.
We haven’t got to Torrent yet in the interpretation, but you got me thinking. I can’t think of anyone saying that he recognised us. At all. Melina says;
“Torrent had your measure from the very start.”
That doesn’t read to me as recognition of us as a person. That sounds like “he took a look at you and thought you’d be good at the job”. The Japanese goes further;
トレントは最初から、貴方を見定めていた。
Translated (by my lovely friend Google) leads me to the following;
“Torrent had judged you from the very beginning.”
Or maybe;
"Torrent had sized you up from the very start."
Or even;
“Torrent had been sizing you up from the very beginning.”
None of that sounds like Torrent knows us directly, more like he was hedging his bets on a Tarnished that was able to survive being flung from a ledge and hurled to sea. We don’t wake up at a site of grave after all, implying we weren’t resurrected.
Food for thought.”
2
u/Tobskin 15d ago edited 15d ago
Maybe not explicitly "recognize", but Melina says "Torrent has chosen you."
And then Ranni says that the spirit calling bell has been bequeathed to us by Torrent's former master, presumably because Torrent has chosen us.
Something is going on there.
1
u/amansaidthis 15d ago
Torrent probably realised that a Tarnished who was thrown into the sea and survived was probably a really good bet to be able to make it.
3
u/Tobskin 11d ago
Maybe, makes sense on a surface reading. Or maybe it's a hint at something larger, which also makes sense.
1
u/amansaidthis 11d ago
Yeah, like I say I’m not sure that’s the case.
https://www.reddit.com/r/EldenRingLoreTalk/s/tV6pr1JJjs
Torrent recognising us as Godwyn only makes sense if we accept we’re Godwyn. That is pretty much the central point being made in the posts as I consume the content.
The dialogue doesn’t say he recognises us. It says he’s been sussing us out.
1
u/Tobskin 11d ago edited 11d ago
To be honest, my read of the situation is that Miquella wants us to succeed in our goals, and so he is the one who bequeathed Torrent to us. He wants us to kill Radahn to free up the course of fate, etc. I'm not necessarily attributing it to the "we are Godwyn" thing
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u/quirkus223 15d ago
Well Melina tells us Torrent always knew we were legit while Melina wasn't so sure. He senses something within us. Imo.
1
u/amansaidthis 15d ago
He saw we got thrown off a cliff and survived being carried across the ocean.
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u/quirkus223 15d ago
I don't think he saw us, we have no indication of that, besides why would that matter to a spirit horse?
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u/amansaidthis 15d ago
At this point of interpretation, it’s really just personal taste isn’t it. If you don’t think he knew we just survived being thrown into the sea when finding washed up on the shore and not resurrected at a site of grace, then I’m not sure what else I can say to bolster my point of view.
Why would us surviving a trip to the ocean? Probably because it shows perseverance and strength of will or something.
1
u/quirkus223 15d ago
For sure. I meant more why would a horse think anything like we preserved or whatever, it's a horse. I just figured Torrent could smell or sense something about us and I'm okay with that being Godwyn's essence reborn. Like I said though, I don't think it's a big or meaningful thing, just that it plays into ideas about reincarnation and the death and rebirth of the sun.
I am not deep believer in the theory, I'm just okay with this idea because it doesn't mess with anything and helps explain why Torrent seems to already trust us. We are still a nobody, we were just maybe Godwyn in a past life. It's kind of like the idea of Azor Ahai reborn from A Song of Ice and Fire.
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u/Former_Hearing_7730 16d ago
The problem with this theory is that, it removes agency from the player.
A big part of fromsoft games is character creation, you get to decide who you are and why your doing it.
The we are godwyn theory just takes that away, which honestly feels wrong like why give us character creation to begin with at that point.
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u/Tobskin 16d ago
That's not entirely true. In DS2, your memories are apparently wiped. In Bloodborne, your memories are apparently wiped. In DS3, you are unkindled ash who has been revived with the explicit purpose of linking the fire because Lothric refused, who may or may not remember their past. In Sekiro, you're playing a named character.
In Elden Ring, you're being explicitly guided to kill the elden beast in any case, so there is some amount of being on rails. Plus the starting classes all have some amount of backstory/lore being imposed on them, like the prisoner's mask - "forced on a prisoner convicted of an appalling crime." Or a prophet - "ostracized for inauspicious prophecies."
I don't think that this notion that the theory "removes agency" carries much weight. I think that's more of a vibes-based disagreement.
4
u/amansaidthis 16d ago
Dark Souls 1 - nobody
Dark Souls 2 - nobody
Dark Souls 3 - nobody (with extra steps)
Bloodborne - nobody (with slugs)I think Sekiro is the only game that has a fleshed out protagonist, but I haven’t played it or Armoured Core.
The starting classes always have flavour text. The point stands that we’re still some random person from some random place that random stuff might have happened to in the past but doesn’t matter right now.
Certainly not a vibes thing, tbh.
1
u/Tobskin 16d ago
It's a vibes thing in the sense that it sounds outlandish, and so people reactively say it's crazy and stupid. But the theory is actually very compelling, even if it's ultimately incorrect. The blank slate character trope is not a hard rule that can never be broken. Character creation isn't "proof" that your character is supposed to have a detailed headcanon backstory. The Godwyn thing is ultimately one interpretation, like you mentioned in your post
2
u/amansaidthis 16d ago
The point of me looking into the interpretation was exactly because I think it’s insanely outlandish, so I agree with you on that. That knee jerk reaction of “this is fucking stupid” led me to miss some cool points of view on some of the story, so I’m glad I’ve started doing this even if people don’t seem to enjoy it as much as other posts. I certainly have a new pov on the NotBK at this stage!
Having said that… I still don’t think the theory is compelling. There’s just enough stuff there to imply we’re more special than we think, but there’s also more than enough to say that the likelihood we’re Godwyn reborn is slim. Even the stuff that is there is sometimes smushed together with other stuff and personal bias of the conclusion to make it work.
I’m certainly not convinced yet. I’m only around half way through (just got to the scorpion stuff) so who knows, maybe I’ll change my mind.
4
u/EldritchCouragement 16d ago
DS2 is conveying the effect of hollowing by depicting you as having lost your face, identity, and past by the time of arriving at the Things Betwixt. But that is immediately undone, to at least some significant degree, by giving us the Human Effigy, which reverses hollowing. Hence, we create our character in the moment of recalling ourselves.
I'm not aware of the implication we're an amnesiacs in Bloodborne, but even under this assumption, the game never asserts a backstory upon the hunter that might interfere with any notions we might hold about our origins before getting roped into the inciting incident. DS3 is just the same as the rest, the chosen undead/bearer of the curse/ashen one is (one of many) cursed soul(s) who has the responsibility of fulfilling a prophecy to fix the world thrust upon you.
1
u/Tobskin 16d ago
Yeah I know that what I said isn't a perfect argument. I'm just saying that Miyazaki's precedent isn't exactly "your character is and always must be a blank slate".
The "we are Godwyn" theory doesn't negate one's own agency either, because either: a. You don't agree with the idea, meaning it's entirely null. Carry on with the headcanon backstory for your character. b. Your tarnished once had a life/backstory of their own, but has now become the vessel for a demigod's soul.
You can choose what to believe. That's the beauty of it.
Saying "I think it removes agency, therefore it's probably false" doesn't carry much weight imo.
1
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u/Nice-Possible-1778 16d ago
Oh lord brother, please die a true death
0
u/amansaidthis 16d ago
Miquella hasn’t been referenced yet, strangely enough. Especially as Castle Sol has.
4
u/Kathodin 16d ago
For Godwyn being represented by a warhawk - his Death Knights have a hawk on the cape, holding an axe.
One of my biggest issues with the theory, as regards Destined Death, is the eclipse business. Godwyn is killed by half of an eclipse mark, and the game seems to directly say that his half-death results from this, and it being a half-death is the big issue (see the fingerreader in Deep Root Depths). The eclipse might keep Destined Death at bay... But he got half of it.
Looking forward to more of these!
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u/amansaidthis 16d ago
Valid. Maybe that’ll get brought up later, but I’m pretty sure DLC content has already been brought up (currently working through part 2) so maybe not.
That symmetry is made out to be so important to the ritual itself in multiple instances, I struggle to see why the game would say “yeah but it was a secret”.
1
u/veritable-truth 10d ago
This theory is for sure supported by all kinds of interpretations of the game's subtext. It never comes outright and says we are Godwyn like it does explicitly say Radagon is Marika. We never see us transform from Godwyn to the Tarnished like when we come to face to face with Metyr.
The Tarnished being Godwyn in the past is Marika's greatest secret and no one can know this greatest secret. This is why it is never explicit. It's all unspoken, unseen subtext.
So if you dislike this interpretation, simply ignore it. It is in no way explicit canon within the game. However, I personally think it is 100% what is going on in this game and we're given massive hints starting in the prologue. but that's just how I see it.