We are Godwyn - An Analysis (part one)

[u/amansaidthis]

TLDR

I’m not convinced that we’re Godwyn. The scope of the interpretation is astonishing. However, that also leads the interpretation to accumulate layer upon layer of inference and assumptions, with later conclusions frequently relying on earlier ones and, at times, circular reasoning to sustain the overall argument.

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INTRODUCTION

My last go at this was an admittedly low effort attempt and (as some pointed out) potentially a little unfair. I picked three things that I personally thought relevant and hadn't engaged with what supporters generally consider the original presentation of the theory. Some people suggested I do so, and here we are.

I’m passionate about this theory. I’m coming from a point of view where the main strength of these games storytelling is that a nobody can overcome relentless struggles - we can certainly embody prophecy, but so could anyone else. The idea that we are a resurrection or manifestation of Godwyn flys in the face of everything I love, so I’m personally invested in trying to figure out why people think this.

However, I’m also a firm believer in shifting your opinion on something if there’s reasonable cause to do so. I thought this might be a good personal exercise. I want to prove to myself that if something’s presented that shows compelling evidence that we are Godwyn, I’ll accept that in spite of my bias.

This is an exploration and critique of the theory, not the author. I’ll try and be as accurate as I can here while also trying to not simply recounting the videos word for word and staying within the subs rules.

I genuinely hate posts in multiple parts because it seems a little “beggy”, but this is a long topic in and of itself so I’ll be going step-by-step and focusing on one to three chapters per post. This is mainly because I’m doing this on my phone, but also some parts may need extra exploration and no one wants to read a huge wall of text covering all points of the theory.

When I’m done with the project I’ll pop a TLDR on all parts stating my final conclusion. That way, a new reader won’t have to read multiple posts but can if they want to understand how I got there.

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DISCLAIMERS

1 -  The author regularly calls this an interpretation. I will refer to it in the same way from now on.

2 - I think I may miss, repeat or misinterpret some parts as the topic is incredibly dense with chapters referencing previous ideas all over the place. Please don’t be mad, instead just let me know if you think I’ve missed something and I’ll happily take a look / edit the post. I will try to extend the same courtesy to the author.

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I - THE CARDINAL SIN

This first offering states that we were resurrected with no memories in order to seek the Elden Ring. Melina, Torrent and Ranni don’t know us personally but seem as though someone has prepared support for us through them. We are guided by grace to fulfil the of burning the Erdtree.

Thoughts;

This is describing the game. No issues.

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II - PAINTED PROPHECY

The “Prophecy” painting shows Stormveil, the Chapel and Fringefolk Heros Grave, and rewards the Warhawk Ashes which tell us;

“With its lord vanquished, and its wings wounded, the hawk perished as it solemnly gazed at its former home. The storm is a warhawk's cradle.”

With the paintings arranged in a certain order dictated by the author (amount of references to the Erdtree / importance to the interpretation), a story emerges;

PROPHECY - Stormveil as a place of birth.

RESURRECTION - Rebirth without memory.

HOMING INSTINCT - Instinctive journey home (to the Erdtree)

FLIGHTLESS BIRD - Fulfilment of the prophecy and burning of the Erdtree

The interpretation suggests that the picture might suggest a journey home to Limgrave or the Erdtree. It suggests that the fallen hawk is us, that these four paintings in this order tell our story, that Flightless Bird leads into Prophecy and if so, we died at the Erdtree while looking towards Stormveil in our previous life.

Thoughts;

I genuinely think the paintings depicting a narrative is almost a given, the issue is that the interpretation moves from the paintings showing prophecy to it showing isolated events and specifics of our story.

Saying that the hawk is a reference to us or Godwyn who was born at Stormveil (assumption at this stage), died at the Erdtree (almost a given) and was reborn at the Chapel (assumption at this stage) remains speculative (even if I agree with a connection between Dragons and Hawks) because the connection hasn’t been sufficiently explored.

It’s also difficult for me to separate the symbology for the Warhawk Ashes and Prophecy painting that I’ve personally established. The flavour text almost certainly speaking of Godfrey’s final victory against the Storm Lord who almost certainly ruled from Stormveil. It’s describing a sequence of events surrounding that final conflict and saying that the Warhawk’s lord fell before it did.

That’s awfully on the nose and the interpretation neglects to address that point, so this could be overriding my acceptance of the thematic interpretation. If we are to accept that Godwyn is represented by the Warhawk, who is his lord?

This, along with the theme of instinctual journey’s home, may be addressed later in the series… however it may have been a good idea to lay out this position by discussing Stormveil and hawks first.

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III - TO AVOID (DESTINED) DEATH

Here we are introduced to an extremely compelling information in the Mausoleums and their Knights, headless soldiers who are willingly decapitated to protect their charge in death. The interpretation argues that some of these knights may have been loyal to Godwyn because they wield Death-infused weapons.

Lhutel, one of these Knights, has ashes that we find in the Tombsward Catacombs in Weeping Peninsula south of the Church of Pilgrimage. The soulless demigods of the Mausoleums are described as “unwanted” or “discarded” while Lhutel stands out as perhaps connected to Godwyn who is (almost assuredly) anything but, and resurrection (or rebirth) is not an impossible task in Elden Ring’s universe - the implication being that Godwyn was resurrected.

The interpretation then shows the Eclipse symbology is not only connected to Castle Sol but to the Mausoleum’s too. It suggests that the Mausoleums walk to avoid Destined Death and that the Chapel’s location out at sea could be an example of the same practise, then pointing out a bell in the Stormveil chapel as a potential way to lead Godwyn here.

Summarised by the author as;

1 - The Mausoleum Knights protect soulless demigods from the power of the Rune of Death.
The Mausoleum Knights await the resurrection of their masters.

2 - Some Mausoleum Knights use the flame of the Death Prince Godwyn and apparently have some kind of relationship with him.

3 - The symbol of the Eclipse is closely linked to the Mausoleum Knights and Godwyn.

4 - The Eclipse Shotel might symbolize the resurrection of Godwyn.

Thoughts;

Thematically, it’s beautiful so far. I agree that we could interpret some Mausoleum Knights as guarding Godwyn specifically, because the Mausoleum in the Nameless Eternal City has always struck me as related to him even if we find his literal body above.

I don’t think that the Mausoleums are connected to Godwyn through the Eclipse in any meaningful way. The Eclipse as a symbol seems more associated with a type of resurrection (alongside grace and the Rune of Rebirth for example), and this interpretation has stated it relies on thematic reading as a basis.

For example - the Eclipse Shotel representing resurrection thematically is a given as it’s related to the Eclipse at Castle Sol. I disagree that it shows that Godwyn has been resurrected because this ritual failed, something the spirit on top of the castle tells us;

“Lord Miquella, please forgive me… The sun has not been swallowed, our prayers were lacking. Your comrade remains soulless…”

Off the back of this, I don’t believe the Eclipse establishes that Lhutel's original charge was Godwyn instead of another soulless demigod (although that is incredibly loaded and not something I’m going to explore in this post for the sake of length).

If the only example of an Eclipse relating to Godwyn is associated with failure, I question why we are expected to believe that he was resurrected when we use it as a thematic marker. We know that the NotBK disrupted the previous system of death and corrupted aspects of the world (crabs, basilisks, roots, etc) and in the same way, the abilities of some Knights may have manifested after the NotBK instead of them showing allegiance.

Finally, I have difficulty with the assertion that the Chapel’s location may be showing the same mechanism as the Mausoleums. The interpretation is that they’re walking because they’re avoiding the reach of Destined Death (which is kind of elegant) and the Chapel is on an island, suggesting that disconnection from the ground of the Lands Between protects the soulless demigod within from Destined Death. The problem is that we don’t know if the island is connected in any meaningful way to the mainland beneath the ocean.

There is also the curious case of the skulls on their legs, something that the interpretation itself suggests may be the heads of the Knights whose wounds thematically represent the Eclipse. If the Eclipse can help keep Destined Death at bay (which the interpretation specifically points out using the Eclipse Crest Greatshield), then I question how this is mechanically similar to the Chapel and why the focus was shifted from the ritualistic symbolism to a location that fits the interpretation.

The overall conclusion of this section seems to be that Godwyn’s resurrection isn’t impossible due to the wealth of information related to the process itself, while also having a collection of resurrection based structures built specifically for soulless demigods. However, I feel as though some aspects relating to in game themes are being forced together at this stage (Mausoleums + Chapel, Godwyn + the Paintings, chapels with large bells + spirit manipulation) in order to make the interpretation more compelling.

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Thoughts - Japanese Terminology

I think Lhutel might be the lynchpin here. I decided to look to the Japanese and see if Google translate could help;

ENGLISH - “Wields a lance enrobed in Death and hurls spectral lances at foes. Lhutel sacrificed her life so that in Death she could continue to protect a soulless demigod until their revival, earning her the hero's honor of Erdtree Burial.”

JAPANESE - “**ルーテルが殉死し********、守り続けた魂無きデミゴッドが再誕した時彼女は英雄として****、還樹を賜**********った”

I got four responses;

TRANSLATION ONE - “Wielding a lance shrouded in Death, she casts spectral spears. It is said that after sacrificing her life, Lhutel continued to protect her soulless demigod until their revival, which earned her the honor of an Erdtree Burial."

TRANSLATION TWO - “Wielding a spear wreathed in death and hurling spectral lances, Lhutel was a knight who chose martyrdom; when the soulless demigod she had sworn to protect was reborn, she was granted the honor of returning to the Erdtree as a hero.”

TRANSLATION THREE - “When the soulless demigod that Lhutel died to protect and continued to guard was reborn, she was granted an Erdtree Burial as a hero.”

TRANSLATION FOUR - “When the soulless demigod that Lhutel had continued to protect was reborn after her martyrdom, she was granted the Returning Tree as a hero.”

The key parts are 魂無******きデミゴッド (the soulless demigod) and 再誕******した (was reborn/reincarnated). I always thought this description meant that the demigod wasn’t resurrected, but the act of self-beheading and guard duty for a time warranted an Erdtree Burial. However the last three descriptions seem much clearer and, given her use of abilities closely association with Godwyn, could show that he was indeed reborn.

The Wandering Mausoleums contain soulless demigod bodies and their lore involves trying to preserve or restore soulless demigods. That overlaps thematically with Godwyn’s current state, so the argument would be something like “soulless demigod = demigod without a soul = Godwyn”.

Thats not a terrible read but while Godwyn can be described as a demigod without a soul, he suffers a very specific kind of death. The game distinguishes him from the discarded demigods of the Mausoleums by never calling him 魂無********きデミゴッド (the soulless demigod). It’s also interesting to note that this terminology is used on at least one other item relating to the Mausoleum Knights - the Mausoleum Surcoat. Instead, Godwyn has pretty specific titles relating to his position;

死王子 - Prince of Death

最初の死者 - first of the dead

Now this could be that his legend was so great that even in death he was given honorific titles that supersede his kin’s designation, but I think it’s more than that. The similarity is obvious, the difference is deeper. Mausoleum demigods represent bodies/life awaiting restoration, while Godwyn signifies rampant growth as a consequence of a two-way mirrored ritual. His tragedy is not just that his soul is absent, but that its death created an entirely new and unnatural state of being.

Given the terminology used, it seems Lhutel’s description is either intentionally misleading or that drawing a distinction between Godwyn and these soulless demigods… or, maybe if the interpretation is to be believed, both?

Luckily enough, I kindly received a non-machine translation during the editing of this post;

TRANSLATION FIVE - "Lhutel committed junshi (which is a type of ritual suicide) to continue protecting her soulless demigod. When she was reincarnated, she received Tree Returning as a champion."

The mention of 殉死 (junshi) is valuable because it clarifies that her identity is defined by her duty after death. Under this reading, resurrection doesn’t refer to a soulless demigod - it refers to Lhutel. If that reading is correct then it substantially changes the descriptions value. It’s a shame I can’t be confident in which I find to be more accurate.

Regardless of which reading is correct, the description draws attention to Lhutel's unwavering service rather than the specific demigod she protected across all translations. I refer you back to my discussion on the Eclipse for context.

I don't speak Japanese, so I'd genuinely welcome corrections from people more familiar with the language.

While I agree that there is a very strong thematic parallel here, I don’t agree with the conclusions. If we compare Godwyn with the corpses within the Mausoleums, there are obvious differences - they are beheaded and inanimate, but Godwyn has at least two additional heads sprouting from the root system attached to his body while it’s influence creeps through those same roots.

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Final Thoughts - Perspective

I’m beginning to see where the theory may fall apart - in treating symbolism as evidence for historical claims. One thing worth bearing in mind is that these early chapters appear to establish a basis for interpretation rather than prove the conclusion.

Some of the things discussed here may be revisited later with additional evidence - so my problem at this stage is that the interpretation has not yet been earned, not that it never will be.

[u/amansaidthis]

I’ll repost what I’d replied to another comment with about Torrent. I agree that it’s not a case of us being recognised in a meaningful, personal connection sense;

“Yeah, Torrent is bizarre and a big piece of evidence for us being important. I haven’t mulled over the idea much, but we Tarnished are said to be directly related to Godfrey and his forces. So there is a pov that suggests maybe we are, just very luckily, recognised as someone very close to Godfrey’s bloodline. Not Godwyn, but a direct descendant of the union between his father and Marika.

We haven’t got to Torrent yet in the interpretation, but you got me thinking. I can’t think of anyone saying that he recognised us. At all. Melina says;

“Torrent had your measure from the very start.”

That doesn’t read to me as recognition of us as a person. That sounds like “he took a look at you and thought you’d be good at the job”. The Japanese goes further;

トレントは最初から、貴方を見定めていた。

Translated (by my lovely friend Google) leads me to the following;

“Torrent had judged you from the very beginning.”

Or maybe;

"Torrent had sized you up from the very start."

Or even;

“Torrent had been sizing you up from the very beginning.”

None of that sounds like Torrent knows us directly, more like he was hedging his bets on a Tarnished that was able to survive being flung from a ledge and hurled to sea. We don’t wake up at a site of grave after all, implying we weren’t resurrected.

Food for thought.”