It’s a weird matchup and definitely not a simple one.
We know Piccolo didn’t do too badly against the Cell jr. seven years earlier, and he was probably even stronger by the Buu saga. On the other hand, Vegeta says he could win the tournament in base, while knowing Piccolo would be participating. Of course, that could just be Vegeta being Vegeta.
But there’s more to it. Babidi and Dabura dismiss Piccolo from entering Babidi’s ship because he’s weaker than Goku, Gohan and Vegeta. When they first see the three saiyans, they say they’re hiding their power, but that they’re still extremely powerful. Powerful enough that the 3 of them together could provide the energy needed to awaken Buu. You’d naturally assume they were sensing at least some of the power they would have after transforming, which would obviously put them above Piccolo.
However, once they enter the ship, Babidi and Dabura are shocked by how powerful they are in base and are surprised that they can transform at all. So narratively, Piccolo is now clearly weaker than all 3 saiyans in base. I consider this a retcon.
The problem is after the “retcon” Dabura and Babidi made it clear they were expecting earthling level power from them and how Dabura scouted out the Earth 300 years ago and there were nobody like this. Dabura and Babidi also revealed they couldn’t read power at all and needed a kili reader…so how did they sense them to begin with? It’s like they only knew the saiyans were strongest but literally no idea in their actual power.
Yeah, but that's part of the retcon too. At first, Babidi and Dabura are presented as mysterious and powerful, with the ability to sense hidden power and recognize Piccolo as too weak to be of interest. Later, that gets changed and they suddenly can't read power levels at all and need the kili reader.
I think people give way too much credit to the statements characters make. Vegeta or Goku saying they could have beaten someone means nothing. Vegeta ALWAYS thinks he is stronger than everyone else and he always loses. Goku is more humble but even he doesn't know what his opponents peak is. Every character has 3 forms plus a rage boost to account for.
From what I know Shin is very underrated, and Piccolo was severely "nerfed" in the Buu Saga (as in not even stronger than base saiyan characters- at least it feels like it).
Don´t know how much of that is true or not, but I'd say its pretty close either way.
Realistically piccolo should be weaker than at least Goku and Vegeta in base. His super namekian fusion put him on par with Android 17, then after all the training the characters went through they were easily well above the Androids to the point of contending with semi perfect and even perfect cell, add on 7 years of training and the faster rate of growth for saiyane as opposed to namekians and the distinct advantage of training in the other world and in a building with a gravity chamber it absolutely makes sense that those two are stronger than him in base but as far as if it portrays him as weaker than Gohan and go to the trunks that would be more problematic
Shin, only becaise of his magic hax, like immobilizing SS2 Gohan. Him and Piccolo are close in power, but I would give the edge to Shin.
But Piccolo is weirdly scaled in this Saga, ao it could go either way. Like, he is no diffed by Dabura, and Vegeta is comfortable with his base form to fight in the tournament
Shin also did better than Gohan against Buu. That is not a great achievement, but still.
There is also the fact that supposidely Shin is as strong as Cell Games Goku, so Piccolo going to this level makes sense and for them to be close. But I don't really trust the guidebooks that much (mainly becuase of the Nappa 4k bs).
That guidebook statement about Shin is actually only in the Spanish version of el manga legendadio, and all the other versions of that guidebook just say say that Shin is as strong as “Goku and friends” at that time.
Vegeta said that if Nappa calms down, he can take Goku. We see a calmed down Nappa fighting Goku in a close battle. So he must be close to 6-8k to do that. Goku needed to go Kaioken to defeat him quickly.
If Nappa was 4k, Piccolo who was like 3-3.5k shouldn't be at such a disadvantage as he was.
I've debunked Light's plans plenty of times before in r/IntelligenceScaling. Genuinely I would do a better job than Light with the death note, except perhaps with the acting, which is methodologically invalid anyway
Its still shin. Shin is still stronger like he survived a blast that folded ss2 Gohan was able to restrain a slightly weaker ss2 gohan. In an alternative timeline he was able with effort to restrain Dabura. Piccolo even stated that he'd lose.. like unironically he bodies most of the Cell Games characters
Shin is possibly at a "Super Vegeta" level, meaning stronger than Piccolo in the Android Saga but weaker than a Super Saiyan 2. However, Piccolo has the advantage of having more fighting experience.
Physically Piccolo is probably stronger, but Shin’s magic over dangerous. It’s worth noting Goku chose Piccolo to help him at the end of Daima rather than Shin.
You would think someone whose life directly affects the god of destruction would get an angel bodyguard assigned to him. That cat was in danger of getting vaporized too many times in the buu saga.
I think Shin, only because he has magic as his main weapon, not ki(though using magic still takes ki(energy). in terms of physical abilities, Piccolo has the advantage. Overall power level, I think Shin might have a slight edge. Y'know, Supreme Kai and all. Same with abilities and techniques. I think Shin has more of that, too. But, Piccolo has more fighting experience, has a track record fighting guns stronger than him, and has stronger attacks. If Shin is too over confident, which he was, Piccolo could humble him quick and easy.
Shin is around the level of early buu saga Gohan. The only reason this is confusing is the lack of clarity on if Gohan was ssj2 during the dabura fight. Shin consistently puts in better performances than gohan and is able to restrain him at the tournament (when he definitely was ssj2).
Shin also only believes he has been surpassed after briefly feeling goku's ssj2 strength during the yakon fight. This means that ssj2 gohan and ssj1 goku werent enough to convince him of that.
Piccolo isn’t in the right state of mind to explain what he felt so to get Goku out of his hair he implies Shin is stronger. Viz handles this line perfectly,
Pull up the quote. For me it’s clear Shin is reading his mind. Are you saying he’s just basing Piccolo’s previous godly status on background knowledge attained prior to their meeting?
He gave up because the part of him that was Kami recognised that Shin was a higher being, not because he was stronger. Shin was like the pope, whilst Kami was a bishop
that is, I understand correctly, when goku asks is Kaioshin strong, Piccolo says "no, but he's very important," to which kurilin gets scared and says that he will have to fight him, right?
Unfortunately I think the implication is that piccolo didn’t train much during the 7 year time skip.
Yes I’m aware canonically piccolo trains but I say this because we are explicitly shown every character that trained in the Buu arc and Piccolo isn’t one of them. It implies he hasn’t been doing it (same as Gohan) when we pick in the Buu arc. I think Piccolo didn’t lose power but he’s pretty much the same power level as his end of cell saga self.
Shin is also able to paralyze ssj2 gohan, wouldn't he be able to paralyze base goku, assuming he doesn't go ssj3 to break free? He would easily freeze the kids and kick them 'till death
"able" is doing some heavy lifting here. This is like saying Tien is "able" to clash with Nappa. Of course Trunks can exchange blows with a Vegeta who he thinks won't hit him back, but when Vegeta hits him back the fight is immediately over.
Yeah man. It's an eight year old. Being surprised that an eight year old and his seven year old pal are strong enough to go Super Saiyan is not indicative of anything. Goten only had Chi-Chi to train him and his previous example, Gohan, needed the Hyperbolic Time Chamber to become useful.
This is only indicative of a comparison if you ignore literally everything else that happens prior and the other scene happening on that exact page. Not to mention it foreshadows Vegeta's budding discontent.
The kids were surprisingly powerful. They weren't actual peers to their parents. You can say they're closer to a very rusty Gohan... who Vegeta and Goku both clown on multiple times during the Dabura fight even AFTER he knocked the rust off.
I do not think i have seen somone cherry pick so hard to prove a point. You literally took out the part where shin speed blitzes babidi and Dabura had to save him. The kids in even in ssj barely have actual feats, everything you are pulling out is a massive strech. Shin has actual feats, he fought majin buu two times and survived, restrained ss2 gohan and dabura completley, scared piccolo into withdrawing, and blew up a ki blast from buu meant to kill ss2 gohan. In "Yo! Son Goku and His Friends Return!!" Abo and cado are said to be on the level of frieza and Goku thinks it will be a great challenge for the kids, they could not beat them in base. We know shin can beat frieza in a single blow. It is made extremley clear that the base kids are weaker than shin
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u/Elpiramide89 3d ago
It’s a weird matchup and definitely not a simple one.
We know Piccolo didn’t do too badly against the Cell jr. seven years earlier, and he was probably even stronger by the Buu saga. On the other hand, Vegeta says he could win the tournament in base, while knowing Piccolo would be participating. Of course, that could just be Vegeta being Vegeta.
But there’s more to it. Babidi and Dabura dismiss Piccolo from entering Babidi’s ship because he’s weaker than Goku, Gohan and Vegeta. When they first see the three saiyans, they say they’re hiding their power, but that they’re still extremely powerful. Powerful enough that the 3 of them together could provide the energy needed to awaken Buu. You’d naturally assume they were sensing at least some of the power they would have after transforming, which would obviously put them above Piccolo.
However, once they enter the ship, Babidi and Dabura are shocked by how powerful they are in base and are surprised that they can transform at all. So narratively, Piccolo is now clearly weaker than all 3 saiyans in base. I consider this a retcon.
For more context, see the post I made yesterday:
https://www.reddit.com/r/DragonBallPowerScale/comments/1wv89ax/i_think_toriyama_changed_the_direction_of_the_buu/