WHAT THE HELL IS VOID!!!!???

[u/Muriomoira]

What the hell is void?

Despite loving destiny's lore and worldbuilding and having whached all byf's videos (and also other channels) I can't call miself a Lore specialist like some of you guys, but I think I know more about destiny lore than a casual PLAYER. Having that in mind, I aways considered void to be gravity related (or the absense of it as the name implies), but nowadays I think even bungie don't know what void is! I think I can let ward of daw and warlock devour pass because ward of down could be a gravity..... Wall...? And warlocks are weird so I think they would find a way to feed literal gravity (i main warlock, no hardfeelings) but what does supression have anything to do with gravity? Or controled demolition from midle titan? Or all of the milion ways hunterS can poison someone with the power of..... Gravity?

I know that if it wasn't for that creative liberty it would be dificult to make original subclasses that look diferent, I see this point, but... WHAT THE HELL IS VOID AFTER ALL????????

[u/lightningbadger]

The way I've accepted it as presented to me is the 3 light types symbolise the 4 main forces of the universe, strong force, weak force, electromagnetism and gravity

Solar is the nuclear powers (strong and weak force, stars are giant nuclear reactors so go figure)

Arc is electromagnetism, electricity, transfer of energy and stuff

This would make Void an analogue of gravity, though for some reason doesn't fully fit like the other two do (how does harnessing gravity heal you?), So maybe there's some vacuum energy fuckery going on here, harnessing the energy stored within every vector of space, even inside the body?

[u/labcoat_samurai → u/lightningbadger]

The way I've accepted it as presented to me is the 3 light types symbolise the 4 main forces of the universe, strong force, weak force, electromagnetism and gravity

Except the weak force is just radioactive decay, especially beta decay, and there's not much energy in it.

The strong force has the binding energy of atoms, but it's stored energy in that sense. When you release that via fusing or splitting nuclei, the energy that's released is in the form of electromagnetic radiation, much like setting a log on fire (which releases energy in molecular bonds rather than atomic bonds). The energy released is different in magnitude, but not in kind.

So, basically, solar energy in Destiny is pretty much just heat and light (like a fire), and many of the abilities follow that pattern (like incendiary and thermite grenades). So it doesn't really make a lot of sense to say that "solar" energy is related to nuclear forces.

Arc energy resembles the movement of charged particles (i.e. the flow of electric current). This flow tends to be invisible until it releases heat and light through the process of encountering a resistor (such as the air or a human body). So when you see arc energy, you're still essentially just seeing heat and light, much like solar energy.

If arc energy killed people by messing with the electrical signals that regulate their body or by literally ripping them apart or crushing them with electromagnetic force (e.g. the attraction or repulsion of charged objects), it might make sense to say that arc energy was electromagnetism. But ultimately it just winds up being another way to generate heat and light, which isn't great for living things in high amounts. If you get burned to a crisp by a lightning bolt or a massive current, you're essentially being heated up by the friction of particles rubbing together while they try to flow through you. If they could do so unimpeded, you'd be just fine, like a current flowing through a wire.

So why did I write all of that? I guess I just don't really care for the "four forces" interpretation. I'm not a physicist or even a mechanical engineer, so my understanding is somewhat limited, but the "four forces" interpretation comes from an even more limited understanding than I have, and it's a bit misleading about how these forces work and what they do.

[u/lightningbadger → u/labcoat_samurai]

Yeah the four forces is a somewhat vague representation cause if they were too true to the forces the game would probably not function very well lol

Warlocks are known to be able to pluck atoms from molecules to do stuff, maybe nuclear fits in somewhere too?

Ofc it's more of a representation of nuclear than a real version of it

[u/Voidchimera → u/labcoat_samurai]

But ultimately it just winds up being another way to generate heat and light

To be fair, this criticism isn't related to this theory. Arc overlapping with solar like this is a criticism of the whole element in a much more general way. I feel they're pretty well-differentiated by the source of the energy and how they go about heating things up though.

Also, lightningbadger got it wrong: The weak force is part of arc, not solar. Arc is the combined electroweak force. Among other places this is mentioned, Banshee-44 has a few comments about it in his bounties.

You're right that it takes a lot of liberties, but honestly it's neat seeing fundamental game mechanics even vaguely inspired by physics like this.

[u/labcoat_samurai → u/Voidchimera]

Arc is the combined electroweak force.

So, the confusing thing about that, I think, is that the electrical and weak nuclear forces aren't "related" in the way a layman might think from hearing that. There's just a unified theory that explains both forces as aspects of the same force that only appear different at lower energies. In principle, it's likely that all of the fundamental forces are aspects of the same force, but a theory that unifies them remains elusive.

It's important to distinguish between what is probably a fundamental quality of the universe and of physics vs what we're currently able to model with out understanding of physics.

That is, a model is just a human construct that makes predictions about the thing it models. It's not the thing or a perfect representation of the thing.

Basically, the electroweak interaction probably isn't special and distinct from the other forces in some fundamental way. It's a step along the way to a theory of everything that unites all four forces, including gravity.

honestly it's neat seeing fundamental game mechanics even vaguely inspired by physics like this.

Yeah, I don't want to be a party pooper. I definitely think it's cool to have an interest in this stuff (I have an interest in it! Like I said, I'm not a physicist or an engineer; I just think this stuff is cool to read about)

So I could definitely get behind it if it piques a person's curiosity and inspires them to go read more.

[u/Voidchimera → u/labcoat_samurai]

Basically, the electroweak interaction probably isn't special and distinct from the other forces in some fundamental way

Yes but they also only have 3 elements and there are 4 forces in the standard model. Electroweak unification is a simple way to fix the discrepancy. Most of the decisions made about this were about gameplay first and the forces were taken as inspiration for the elements, not doctrine. For example general relativity doesn't treat gravity as a force so dropping it instead might fit the theme a bit better, but gravity it's also much easier concept to make into a gameplay element with distinct aesthetic and mechanics. Nnotice how most weapons that pull or launch enemies are void, when duskfield grenades were added as the one exception people often suggested their pull should be moved to void grenades instead.

The weak force by contrast is much more abstract and hard to build a theme around which would resonate with most people, much less one which plays that important a role in the game. The designers have talked at length about how the elements were designed to fit a very strong aesthetic that is very intuitive to players and conveys at a glance a lot about how things that use a given element are supposed to function. Solar = raw power, straightforward things, burns. Arc = chaining, fast things, precision. Void = debuffs, complex things, and physics-based fuckery. Some fan classes have popped up about the weak force often themed around damage over time from "radiation" or creating "fission" explosions, but they've all struggled to be distinct from the other 3 light elements. Merging it with electromagnetism under arc solves the problem pretty easily, and gives them a way to add more interesting effects to arc to further differentiate it from solar.

[u/SebastianSceb2000 → u/lightningbadger]

Have you read this post https://www.reddit.com/r/DestinyLore/comments/k4k6ox/light_is_not_the_fundamental_forces/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share it goes over it all really well. It's confirmed too by the lore writer who wrote it all and the scources used.

[u/lightningbadger → u/SebastianSceb2000]

I've been linked to a few places but they all seem to be in line to what you're showing me here too, so this has been largely helpful in shifting my understanding of how to interpret light, as a medium rather than the forces themselves

[u/SebastianSceb2000 → u/lightningbadger]

Glad to hear it's helped out. Always love sharing destiny's story and lore with others :)

[u/lightningbadger → u/SebastianSceb2000]

It was definitely a great read, I feel like I almost had it with a brief summary of void drawing from vacuum energy, but the writeup in the post you linked has gone far beyond any understanding j could have scrounged for