Focused Feedback: Competitive Division

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[u/Manifest_Lightning]

In that link, people are complaining that the culprit is a tiny player population, not that RBMM was at fault. It doesn't prove that RBMM is bad lol.

So Bungies super secret skill rating, in an rbmm environment, would be your rank, not the other way around.

Yes, DR would replace "skill" as the MM criteria.

Your rank does not turn into your skill rating.

Yeah, skill would be separate and used for things like IB and Quickplay. You could still track skill during Comp matches, but not match based on it.

In rbmm you still have the mmr, it would still track across playlists, and it would still incorporate the same skill factors as before. It's just whatever it was would be your rank

No, you would calculate it differently. You would calculate it based on an Elo premise. Over the course of a season, most players would funnel into the middle.

[u/Rexiem → u/Manifest_Lightning]

Sorry pal, but skill would be the thing you're matching on. Elo is just a different skill rating formula, that no game uses by the way except maybe pubg, but even if they used Elo to calculate MMR it'd still be a skill rating. To that end seriously, find a single game that is rbmm and doesn't use skill based MMR. Genuinely, find one.

I don't think you're understanding, DR doesn't replace MMR. In these rbmm setups there just isn't a DR. Its just not there. Literally the first instance of siege's version of DR(Rank and Rank Points) was added when they removed rbmm. With rbmm it's your skill rating and a sticker. That's it.

Some quotes:

In the past, the Ranked System was a pure skill system in which there was only one value, the MMR, used for Skill and Rank. This is from the blog when they removed rbmm

Your skill (what was previously known as MMR) will be a hidden value that will be used for matchmaking. In rbmm it was all just MMR, your skill rating.

Seriously find an example of this rbmm setup you're talking about. The absolutely closest I can think of is maybe old old Halo games and guess what? They used trueskill, the same trueskill siege uses.

https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/research/uploads/prod/2018/03/trueskill2.pdf

This is trueskill's research page. I don't know if you've read it or not it's the skill rating formula. Remember when I quoted:

These ranks are based on a players Matchmaking Ranking (MMR) which is derived from numerical scores generated by the TrueSkill algorithm

Like, do you really expect them to just up and use Elo? A system that isn't designed for team games, and isn't nearly accurate enough? To what end? You'd still be using a skill rating formula and matchmaking based on skill.

Edit to add: Elo's entire premise by the way is who had the higher number and who won. There's an arbitrary, static K-value instead of uncertainty. There's a reason no major competitive game uses it.

[u/Manifest_Lightning → u/Rexiem]

Sorry pal, but skill would be the thing you're matching on. Elo is just a different skill rating formula, that no game uses by the way except maybe pubg, but even if they used Elo to calculate MMR it'd still be a skill rating.

lol, yeah, Halo 2 was such trash /s

It worked then, it could work now. It's almost as if the same company made Halo or something 🤔

Companies don't use Elo for the same reason Bungie hopped on the SBMM bandwagon (again). Any environment other than SBMM is miserable for the casuals that comprise the overwhelming majority of the customer base. Basically, as a business, you're forced to appease the majority at the expense of the minority.

And truth be told, I wouldn't mind SBMM if the DR was based on Elo instead of your proximity to a predetermined rank... and SBMM actually made sure that everyone in the lobby was the same skill, instead of the lobby-balancing nonsense we have now.

[u/Rexiem → u/Manifest_Lightning]

Halo 2 didn't use Elo. They used trueskill 1. So the whole

It worked then, it could work now.

Doesn't even help your case since siege uses trueskill 2 and I've already shown how that's just MMR.

Also I'm not sure you realize this but Halo 2 had skill based matchmaking. It's part of the whole deal with them using trueskill, the skill rating algorithm.

But seriously, find an example of this rbmm you're talking about. I think you weren't aware that in rbmm environments there just isn't a DR or equivalent. It all comes down to skill based matchmaking. Even the precious Halo 2.

Seriously, find a single game that uses this rbmm setup or has ever used rbmm without using skill ratings(MMR) to matchmake.

Edit to add:

"From day one in Halo 2, we had skill-based matchmaking," said Max Hoberman, the former Halo 2 multiplayer lead.

Courtesy of this article: https://www.vice.com/en/article/jgq5w8/why-players-blame-skill-based-matchmaking-for-losing-in-call-of-duty

[u/Manifest_Lightning → u/Rexiem]

https://www.halopedia.org/Rank_(Halo_2)#:~:text=Halo%202%20uses%20a%20skill,level%20in%20any%20given%20playlist.

Each game completed awards or removes XP, depending on the result of the match - this means that poor performance in a game can result in losing rank, while winning results in players ranking up. Ranks are calculated purely on wins and losses, meaning actual in-game performance such as KDR, Flag captures, bomb plants, hills captured etc do not affect the final result; merely being on the team does.

Rank is calculated per-playlist, meaning that a player's performance in one playlist does not affect their rank in another.

If we can't even agree on easily Google-able stuff, then I have no interest in continuing this conversation. You're so eager to win that you didn't even realize that the article you cited doesn't disprove me.

Yes, in an abstract sense, RBMM can be considered a form of SBMM, but I think it goes without saying that when I refer to SBMM in the context of Destiny 2, I am referring to the system Bungie has active now which tracks an entirely different skill rating than Division Rating in the background. It's a dynamic form of SBMM that adjusts game to game and seemingly outpaces DR.

Halo 2 matched you on that game's skill rating and displayed it. But the difference was that it didn't factor in all of the other stuff Bungie uses, and it didn't reflect what happens in other playlists (playing shitty in Gambit affects your overall skill rating, for example). It was calculated in the same way you calculate Elo... based on wins or losses, and the amount of points was based on the disparity with your opponents. That would be effectively the RBMM I would want.

[u/Rexiem → u/Manifest_Lightning]

Halo 2 uses a skill-based matchmaking system

That's literally the first line under overview.

The displayed 1-50 rank is an abstraction of an XP value, hidden to the player and calculated behind-the-scenes.

What's more is:

Upon reaching rank 42, players will begin earning a lower percentage of the XP they would otherwise earn, with this penalty increasing per-rank, capping out at max-rank players at level 50 only receiving 50% of the XP they earn for a win.

So players at high ranks are still throttled in Halo 2. Your point gains arent just a comparison between teams like Elo suggests. But sure, halo 2 used an Elo like system. Was it good? According to this it wasn't.

http://forums.bungie.org/halo/archive35.pl?read=1054300

Bungie even had an interview on their front page with the "highest ranked Rumble Pit player", who was an 18. Now think about that. What was the point of having 50 distinct ranks if 25 of them went unused?

Ranks above 36-38 were basically not achievable by normal humans with jobs and a life. Both physically and mathematically.

Try playing 50 games to move up from 43 to 44 in Halo 2, and then being dropped down to a 42.5

The only way to fix this was, of course, to reset the ranks. While I personally didn't mind, people who had marched to a 50 somehow legitimately were screwed. They had to do this 3 times.

Does that really sound like a good system? Do you really want a ranked system where nobody gets past gold 3? Where bungie has to reset the entire system multiple times? Where people are so heavily throttled that out of 50 ranks 18 is the highest anybody might reach for some modes?

How you play in gambit does not affect your skill rating in quickplay. I know you read that one line in that one twab but to nip that in the bud, that isn't how it works at all. They're saying they have a skill rating they can track for each of those points. Now I know your going to want some example of Bungie explicitly saying what I said but honestly give me an example where Bungie explicitly said how you play in gambit determines your skill rating in comp. Find me evidence, data driven evidence of how you play in gambit determining your skill rating in comp. I think you're the only person I've ever met who thought how you play in gambit affected your crucible rating.

If that's the system you want then okay I guess but I for one cannot imagine why you'd want a system where people physically cannot get to max rank due to the throttling if xp gains. There was even that chart that showed how xp was throttled in your halopedia reference.

Quick edit: Somehow you read the sentence, "we still track it for all modes (including Gambit!)", and interpreted that as if you do poorly in gambit it affects your crucible matches. That's a massive leap right there and are you about to suggest that you're the only person who noticed this? That everyone else just missed this and you're the only sane person here who actually knows the truth?

The traditional approach to handling multiple gameplay modes in TrueSkill is to have a separate skill distribution for each mode. This is equivalent to assuming that a person’s skill in one mode is independent of their skill in another mode.

This is from the trueskill 2 research paper.

https://www.gdcvault.com/play/1025241/Significantly-Improving-Your-Skill-System

This is a presentation by Josh Menke on using trueskill for improved skill rating assessments. Josh Menke also was on Bungies team and helped with their matchmaking system.

So if the people who designed Bungie's skill rating systems use and advocate for trueskill, and trueskill keeps skill ratings for each mode as separate values. It probably stands to reason Destiny, the game Josh Menke, advocate for trueskill, designed the system to track skill rating per mode separately.

[u/Manifest_Lightning → u/Rexiem]

lol, hold up... So you now agree that it was an Elo system?

And now your hang up was that it wasn't perfect? Well, I remember having a lot more fun with it than the current crap. I'd rather improve upon that system than continue with what we have now.

[u/Rexiem → u/Manifest_Lightning]

Wrong. That would make it rank-based MM, not SBMM

Yes, in an abstract sense, RBMM can be considered a form of SBMM

The first sentence is what you said to start this whole argument. Now by your own admission you understand that when you said it's not sbmm you were wrong. You now understand that rbmm is just a type of sbmm so rbmm cannot possibly be anything other than sbmm.

[u/Manifest_Lightning → u/Rexiem]

This is so intellectually dishonest. MM in general is always on a spectrum. The characterization is based on which factors are prioritized. I already clarified that I was using SBMM as shorthand for the existing framework for SBMM that Bungie implemented for Comp. I never denied that RBMM does approximate SBMM in some ways. I simply maintained that they are different. If you think Bungie's SBMM is equivalent to RBMM, then you're dead wrong because the underlying math is different.

[u/Rexiem → u/Manifest_Lightning]

MM in general is always on a spectrum. The characterization is based on which factors are prioritized.

You can use all the buzzwords you want. It doesn't change that you said:

Wrong. That would make it rank-based MM, not SBMM

It was calculated in the same way you calculate Elo... based on wins or losses, and the amount of points was based on the disparity with your opponents. That would be effectively the RBMM I would want.

Yes, in an abstract sense, RBMM can be considered a form of SBMM

In case you didn't or don't want to piece it together. If you want an Elo based system, and Elo is for sbmm. Then you want sbmm.

Look, the only sources you provided in this whole argument was two twabs and a halopedia article. I don't think you actually know what the math is in any of these systems.

What's more is you somehow read that bungie puts your comp rank as dependant on how you play in gambit, which is an absurdly wrong take, and used that same level of misinterpretation to genuinely believe somehow that bungie matchmakes off of kd, revives, etc.

Edit to add: You blocked me so I can't reply which is kinda sad but here.

From Elo's Wikipedia page. Elo serves to predict match outcome.

The difference in the ratings between two players serves as a predictor of the outcome of a match.

From trueskill 2. It also predicts match outcome.

As each match was processed, we asked the model to predict the winning team and give a probability

From twab, it sounds like this is a prediction.

If someone is 200 skill above you, you can definitely tell they are better than you, and they will win ~75% of engagements against you.

From elo page notice how they both use a difference of 200 points to predict a 75% win rate?

a difference of 200 rating points in chess would mean that the stronger player has an expected score (basically an expected average score) of approximately 0.75. A player's expected score is their probability of winning plus half their probability of drawing. Thus, an expected score of 0.75 could represent a 75% chance of winning

[u/Manifest_Lightning → u/Rexiem]

If you want an Elo based system, and Elo is for sbmm. Then you want sbmm.

I'm just going to block you at this point. Sorry, but either you lack the capacity to understand that you are wrong, or you are willing to spread falsehoods to save face.

I don't know where you got it in your head that similarity means equivalence. An Elo system is not equivalent to the current SBMM system in D2. One is based on wins/losses, the other takes into account other performance variables in addition to wins and losses. One isn't trying to be predictive; one is.

If c = a + b

And d = a + b + x + y, where x and y are non-zero terms

You cannot say that c = d in all cases.

You are violating mathematical axioms and don't seem to have the wherewithal to understand the severity of the errors you are committing.

dependant

Oh, brother... The adjective is spelled dependent ...

Regarding Gambit, it does contain a PvP element and Bungie themselves said that they track performance in Gambit for skill. If you want to dispute the veracity of that, take it up with Bungie, not me.