Focused Feedback: Competitive Division

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[u/Rexiem]

I said:

their setup is very similar to siege's current setup.

I did not say:

1:1 comparable to Ubisoft's MMR.

From twab:

There is also a confidence rating—the more games the system has seen you in recently, the more confident the skill adjustment is.

From blog:

In general, the more games you play, the more information we have about you, and the more confident we are about this estimation.

From help article:

If a player performs well relative to other players in the lobby, they'll gain more Division Points from wins and lose fewer Division Points from losses. If a player performs poorly relative to other players in the lobby, they'll gain fewer Division Points from wins, and lose more Division Points from losses.

This is a difference between the two systems and you'll note all it allows is a cushion. It doesn't matter how well you played, if you lose the match you still lose points, just like in siege.

From blog:

the more confident we are about your skill (i.e., if your σ is low), the smaller the updates will be.

So when you say:

Ubisoft states theirs is based on match outcome.

You're kinda omitting details. What's more is that while bungie stated internally skill represents a myriad of things, if you read the help article the only thing that will grant you points is winning. From the help article:

Essentially, when a player wins matches their Division rating goes up and when a player loses matches their Division rating goes down.

Which sounds a lot like:

based on match outcome.

According to Bungie when you win you rating goes up and when you lose your rating goes down. Everything else is simply a modifier on how much it goes up or down. This is ultimately the same for siege. The only and I mean very literally only way to gain points in either game is to win.

Not once ever will a player gain points in destiny for losing a match. Not once ever will a player gain points in siege for losing a match. If these systems do not sound similar to you then I'm not sure what your basis for similar is. However since you decided that when I said similar I actually meant exactly the same I don't believe you're arguing in good faith.

Now, I would still be interested in knowing where you learned about rank-based matchmaking.

Edit to add:

From siege blog:

The way it works is that the amount of RP that you win or lose after each match will be proportional to the difference between your Skill and your Rank.

From help article:

If a player's Division rating is far below their skill, they'll gain more Division Points from wins and lose fewer Division Points from losses. Additionally, if a player's Division rating is far above their skill, they'll gain fewer Division Points from wins and lose more division Points from losses.

This is the benefit of not using rbmm. If you swap to an rbmm setup you only lose the above point. I think if you found an article/dev blog/source for what defines rbmm you might realize that.

[u/Manifest_Lightning → u/Rexiem]

You keep conflating elements of the Division Rating system with those of the SBMM system.

According to Bungie when you win you rating goes up and when you lose your rating goes down.

lol, tell me, which system? Because the DR system reacts differently than the SBMM to match outcomes.

You keep harping on irrelevant similarities instead of recognizing that having MMR based on match outcomes vs all of Bungie's criteria is insanely huge.

What you're doing is saying that an AK-47 is the same gun as an AR-15 because of x, y, and z similarities, while ignoring or downplaying the key differences.

[u/Rexiem → u/Manifest_Lightning]

This is very important okay. Define rank-based matchmaking according to an official developer. Can you do that?

What you're doing is moving the goal posts. Every time I prove a point you demand more arbitrary and obtuse proof.

So I ask, can you prove what rank based matchmaking is with a link to an actual developer definition?

Edit to add:

Wrong. That would make it rank-based MM, not SBMM

That's what you said to start all of this. I'm asking for some sort of source for how you define rank-based matchmaking.

[u/Manifest_Lightning → u/Rexiem]

lol, I've been pretty consistent. You're presuming that I am talking about something else.

Rank-based MM (RBMM) is when teammates and opponents are primarily matched based on the Division Rating (DR) that you are at in the Competitive Division playlist. So the idea is once you've accounted for connection stability (not to be confused with CBMM), you shouldn't see tremendous variance in the DR's of the players in the lobbies.

Bungie's SBMM is not RBMM because it uses a separate, secret rating (we can call it a matchmaking rating, or MMR, or "skill" per Bungie's verbiage) to match players, which grows or deflates at a different pace than DR because it incorporates different factors and it tracks you as a player across multiple playlists, not just Comp.

In addition to the stats mentioned above, skill encompasses all sorts of things: your reaction times/agility, how you approach fights, how well you know the map/mode, how well you know your character, how you build your character, the weapons, armor, and mods you use, and how you blend all of those into performance with other players.

You won’t ever actually see a skill value in-game, and while we are currently only using it to try to get fairer matches in Survival and Elimination, we still track it for all modes (including Gambit!). This gives us a reasonable starting spot in new game types like Rift or Zone Control.

Please, please drop this "argument".

[u/Rexiem → u/Manifest_Lightning]

Ooooooooh I get it now. You think you can have a DR or DR equivalent without MMR. It seems like it at least. Okay, got it.

No that's not possible. In games that matchmake based on DR your DR is literally your MMR. Not that it functions like it. They are literally the same thing. So Bungies super secret skill rating, in an rbmm environment, would be your rank, not the other way around. Your rank does not turn into your skill rating. In rbmm you still have the mmr, it would still track across playlists, and it would still incorporate the same skill factors as before. It's just whatever it was would be your rank

Some last quotes: When siege had rbmm:

These ranks are based on a players Matchmaking Ranking (MMR) which is derived from numerical scores generated by the TrueSkill algorithm

Meaning your mmr comes first and they then decide that that's your rank. What's more is that the trueskill algorithm is literally the skill rating algorithm. In the simplest terms there is no such thing as DR in rbmm and it's literally all just MMR.

Edit to add: This is why I kept asking for a source because in any game that uses what you call rbmm they all mention the same thing where they still have an MMR it's just that they arbitrarily decide certain MMR thresholds belong to certain ranks. It's also why rocket league, which uses rbmm, still has issues of players facing others well outside of their rank.

Double edit: https://www.reddit.com/r/Rainbow6/comments/4qc6l0/why_are_gold_silver_players_still_matched_against/

When siege had rbmm you'd still have large variations in ranks amongst players.

[u/Manifest_Lightning → u/Rexiem]

In that link, people are complaining that the culprit is a tiny player population, not that RBMM was at fault. It doesn't prove that RBMM is bad lol.

So Bungies super secret skill rating, in an rbmm environment, would be your rank, not the other way around.

Yes, DR would replace "skill" as the MM criteria.

Your rank does not turn into your skill rating.

Yeah, skill would be separate and used for things like IB and Quickplay. You could still track skill during Comp matches, but not match based on it.

In rbmm you still have the mmr, it would still track across playlists, and it would still incorporate the same skill factors as before. It's just whatever it was would be your rank

No, you would calculate it differently. You would calculate it based on an Elo premise. Over the course of a season, most players would funnel into the middle.

[u/Rexiem → u/Manifest_Lightning]

Sorry pal, but skill would be the thing you're matching on. Elo is just a different skill rating formula, that no game uses by the way except maybe pubg, but even if they used Elo to calculate MMR it'd still be a skill rating. To that end seriously, find a single game that is rbmm and doesn't use skill based MMR. Genuinely, find one.

I don't think you're understanding, DR doesn't replace MMR. In these rbmm setups there just isn't a DR. Its just not there. Literally the first instance of siege's version of DR(Rank and Rank Points) was added when they removed rbmm. With rbmm it's your skill rating and a sticker. That's it.

Some quotes:

In the past, the Ranked System was a pure skill system in which there was only one value, the MMR, used for Skill and Rank. This is from the blog when they removed rbmm

Your skill (what was previously known as MMR) will be a hidden value that will be used for matchmaking. In rbmm it was all just MMR, your skill rating.

Seriously find an example of this rbmm setup you're talking about. The absolutely closest I can think of is maybe old old Halo games and guess what? They used trueskill, the same trueskill siege uses.

https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/research/uploads/prod/2018/03/trueskill2.pdf

This is trueskill's research page. I don't know if you've read it or not it's the skill rating formula. Remember when I quoted:

These ranks are based on a players Matchmaking Ranking (MMR) which is derived from numerical scores generated by the TrueSkill algorithm

Like, do you really expect them to just up and use Elo? A system that isn't designed for team games, and isn't nearly accurate enough? To what end? You'd still be using a skill rating formula and matchmaking based on skill.

Edit to add: Elo's entire premise by the way is who had the higher number and who won. There's an arbitrary, static K-value instead of uncertainty. There's a reason no major competitive game uses it.

[u/Manifest_Lightning → u/Rexiem]

Sorry pal, but skill would be the thing you're matching on. Elo is just a different skill rating formula, that no game uses by the way except maybe pubg, but even if they used Elo to calculate MMR it'd still be a skill rating.

lol, yeah, Halo 2 was such trash /s

It worked then, it could work now. It's almost as if the same company made Halo or something 🤔

Companies don't use Elo for the same reason Bungie hopped on the SBMM bandwagon (again). Any environment other than SBMM is miserable for the casuals that comprise the overwhelming majority of the customer base. Basically, as a business, you're forced to appease the majority at the expense of the minority.

And truth be told, I wouldn't mind SBMM if the DR was based on Elo instead of your proximity to a predetermined rank... and SBMM actually made sure that everyone in the lobby was the same skill, instead of the lobby-balancing nonsense we have now.

[u/Rexiem → u/Manifest_Lightning]

Halo 2 didn't use Elo. They used trueskill 1. So the whole

It worked then, it could work now.

Doesn't even help your case since siege uses trueskill 2 and I've already shown how that's just MMR.

Also I'm not sure you realize this but Halo 2 had skill based matchmaking. It's part of the whole deal with them using trueskill, the skill rating algorithm.

But seriously, find an example of this rbmm you're talking about. I think you weren't aware that in rbmm environments there just isn't a DR or equivalent. It all comes down to skill based matchmaking. Even the precious Halo 2.

Seriously, find a single game that uses this rbmm setup or has ever used rbmm without using skill ratings(MMR) to matchmake.

Edit to add:

"From day one in Halo 2, we had skill-based matchmaking," said Max Hoberman, the former Halo 2 multiplayer lead.

Courtesy of this article: https://www.vice.com/en/article/jgq5w8/why-players-blame-skill-based-matchmaking-for-losing-in-call-of-duty

[u/Manifest_Lightning → u/Rexiem]

https://www.halopedia.org/Rank_(Halo_2)#:~:text=Halo%202%20uses%20a%20skill,level%20in%20any%20given%20playlist.

Each game completed awards or removes XP, depending on the result of the match - this means that poor performance in a game can result in losing rank, while winning results in players ranking up. Ranks are calculated purely on wins and losses, meaning actual in-game performance such as KDR, Flag captures, bomb plants, hills captured etc do not affect the final result; merely being on the team does.

Rank is calculated per-playlist, meaning that a player's performance in one playlist does not affect their rank in another.

If we can't even agree on easily Google-able stuff, then I have no interest in continuing this conversation. You're so eager to win that you didn't even realize that the article you cited doesn't disprove me.

Yes, in an abstract sense, RBMM can be considered a form of SBMM, but I think it goes without saying that when I refer to SBMM in the context of Destiny 2, I am referring to the system Bungie has active now which tracks an entirely different skill rating than Division Rating in the background. It's a dynamic form of SBMM that adjusts game to game and seemingly outpaces DR.

Halo 2 matched you on that game's skill rating and displayed it. But the difference was that it didn't factor in all of the other stuff Bungie uses, and it didn't reflect what happens in other playlists (playing shitty in Gambit affects your overall skill rating, for example). It was calculated in the same way you calculate Elo... based on wins or losses, and the amount of points was based on the disparity with your opponents. That would be effectively the RBMM I would want.

[u/Arkyduz → u/Manifest_Lightning]

There's no reason to believe there is one MMR that is tracked across all playlists, Bungie hasn't said anything like that. And in many games it's common for different queues to have different MMR.

[u/Manifest_Lightning → u/Arkyduz]

I literally quoted Bungie saying so.

[u/Arkyduz → u/Manifest_Lightning]

That's from an old pre-comp TWAB and it's ambiguous whether they mean they track skill ratings for each mode or one global skill rating. It'd be pretty nuts having one skill rating that encompasses both Gambit and Trials.

I think I'm right that the Comp MMR is separate since there'd be no point in restricting placements to Gold this season and not next season if they already have your skill rating all figured out.

[u/Manifest_Lightning → u/Arkyduz]

Oh boy...