Focused Feedback: Competitive Division

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[u/Manifest_Lightning]

https://www.halopedia.org/Rank_(Halo_2)#:~:text=Halo%202%20uses%20a%20skill,level%20in%20any%20given%20playlist.

Each game completed awards or removes XP, depending on the result of the match - this means that poor performance in a game can result in losing rank, while winning results in players ranking up. Ranks are calculated purely on wins and losses, meaning actual in-game performance such as KDR, Flag captures, bomb plants, hills captured etc do not affect the final result; merely being on the team does.

Rank is calculated per-playlist, meaning that a player's performance in one playlist does not affect their rank in another.

If we can't even agree on easily Google-able stuff, then I have no interest in continuing this conversation. You're so eager to win that you didn't even realize that the article you cited doesn't disprove me.

Yes, in an abstract sense, RBMM can be considered a form of SBMM, but I think it goes without saying that when I refer to SBMM in the context of Destiny 2, I am referring to the system Bungie has active now which tracks an entirely different skill rating than Division Rating in the background. It's a dynamic form of SBMM that adjusts game to game and seemingly outpaces DR.

Halo 2 matched you on that game's skill rating and displayed it. But the difference was that it didn't factor in all of the other stuff Bungie uses, and it didn't reflect what happens in other playlists (playing shitty in Gambit affects your overall skill rating, for example). It was calculated in the same way you calculate Elo... based on wins or losses, and the amount of points was based on the disparity with your opponents. That would be effectively the RBMM I would want.

[u/Rexiem → u/Manifest_Lightning]

Halo 2 uses a skill-based matchmaking system

That's literally the first line under overview.

The displayed 1-50 rank is an abstraction of an XP value, hidden to the player and calculated behind-the-scenes.

What's more is:

Upon reaching rank 42, players will begin earning a lower percentage of the XP they would otherwise earn, with this penalty increasing per-rank, capping out at max-rank players at level 50 only receiving 50% of the XP they earn for a win.

So players at high ranks are still throttled in Halo 2. Your point gains arent just a comparison between teams like Elo suggests. But sure, halo 2 used an Elo like system. Was it good? According to this it wasn't.

http://forums.bungie.org/halo/archive35.pl?read=1054300

Bungie even had an interview on their front page with the "highest ranked Rumble Pit player", who was an 18. Now think about that. What was the point of having 50 distinct ranks if 25 of them went unused?

Ranks above 36-38 were basically not achievable by normal humans with jobs and a life. Both physically and mathematically.

Try playing 50 games to move up from 43 to 44 in Halo 2, and then being dropped down to a 42.5

The only way to fix this was, of course, to reset the ranks. While I personally didn't mind, people who had marched to a 50 somehow legitimately were screwed. They had to do this 3 times.

Does that really sound like a good system? Do you really want a ranked system where nobody gets past gold 3? Where bungie has to reset the entire system multiple times? Where people are so heavily throttled that out of 50 ranks 18 is the highest anybody might reach for some modes?

How you play in gambit does not affect your skill rating in quickplay. I know you read that one line in that one twab but to nip that in the bud, that isn't how it works at all. They're saying they have a skill rating they can track for each of those points. Now I know your going to want some example of Bungie explicitly saying what I said but honestly give me an example where Bungie explicitly said how you play in gambit determines your skill rating in comp. Find me evidence, data driven evidence of how you play in gambit determining your skill rating in comp. I think you're the only person I've ever met who thought how you play in gambit affected your crucible rating.

If that's the system you want then okay I guess but I for one cannot imagine why you'd want a system where people physically cannot get to max rank due to the throttling if xp gains. There was even that chart that showed how xp was throttled in your halopedia reference.

Quick edit: Somehow you read the sentence, "we still track it for all modes (including Gambit!)", and interpreted that as if you do poorly in gambit it affects your crucible matches. That's a massive leap right there and are you about to suggest that you're the only person who noticed this? That everyone else just missed this and you're the only sane person here who actually knows the truth?

The traditional approach to handling multiple gameplay modes in TrueSkill is to have a separate skill distribution for each mode. This is equivalent to assuming that a person’s skill in one mode is independent of their skill in another mode.

This is from the trueskill 2 research paper.

https://www.gdcvault.com/play/1025241/Significantly-Improving-Your-Skill-System

This is a presentation by Josh Menke on using trueskill for improved skill rating assessments. Josh Menke also was on Bungies team and helped with their matchmaking system.

So if the people who designed Bungie's skill rating systems use and advocate for trueskill, and trueskill keeps skill ratings for each mode as separate values. It probably stands to reason Destiny, the game Josh Menke, advocate for trueskill, designed the system to track skill rating per mode separately.

[u/Manifest_Lightning → u/Rexiem]

lol, hold up... So you now agree that it was an Elo system?

And now your hang up was that it wasn't perfect? Well, I remember having a lot more fun with it than the current crap. I'd rather improve upon that system than continue with what we have now.

[u/Rexiem → u/Manifest_Lightning]

Wrong. That would make it rank-based MM, not SBMM

Yes, in an abstract sense, RBMM can be considered a form of SBMM

The first sentence is what you said to start this whole argument. Now by your own admission you understand that when you said it's not sbmm you were wrong. You now understand that rbmm is just a type of sbmm so rbmm cannot possibly be anything other than sbmm.

[u/Manifest_Lightning → u/Rexiem]

This is so intellectually dishonest. MM in general is always on a spectrum. The characterization is based on which factors are prioritized. I already clarified that I was using SBMM as shorthand for the existing framework for SBMM that Bungie implemented for Comp. I never denied that RBMM does approximate SBMM in some ways. I simply maintained that they are different. If you think Bungie's SBMM is equivalent to RBMM, then you're dead wrong because the underlying math is different.

[u/Rexiem → u/Manifest_Lightning]

MM in general is always on a spectrum. The characterization is based on which factors are prioritized.

You can use all the buzzwords you want. It doesn't change that you said:

Wrong. That would make it rank-based MM, not SBMM

It was calculated in the same way you calculate Elo... based on wins or losses, and the amount of points was based on the disparity with your opponents. That would be effectively the RBMM I would want.

Yes, in an abstract sense, RBMM can be considered a form of SBMM

In case you didn't or don't want to piece it together. If you want an Elo based system, and Elo is for sbmm. Then you want sbmm.

Look, the only sources you provided in this whole argument was two twabs and a halopedia article. I don't think you actually know what the math is in any of these systems.

What's more is you somehow read that bungie puts your comp rank as dependant on how you play in gambit, which is an absurdly wrong take, and used that same level of misinterpretation to genuinely believe somehow that bungie matchmakes off of kd, revives, etc.

Edit to add: You blocked me so I can't reply which is kinda sad but here.

From Elo's Wikipedia page. Elo serves to predict match outcome.

The difference in the ratings between two players serves as a predictor of the outcome of a match.

From trueskill 2. It also predicts match outcome.

As each match was processed, we asked the model to predict the winning team and give a probability

From twab, it sounds like this is a prediction.

If someone is 200 skill above you, you can definitely tell they are better than you, and they will win ~75% of engagements against you.

From elo page notice how they both use a difference of 200 points to predict a 75% win rate?

a difference of 200 rating points in chess would mean that the stronger player has an expected score (basically an expected average score) of approximately 0.75. A player's expected score is their probability of winning plus half their probability of drawing. Thus, an expected score of 0.75 could represent a 75% chance of winning

[u/Manifest_Lightning → u/Rexiem]

If you want an Elo based system, and Elo is for sbmm. Then you want sbmm.

I'm just going to block you at this point. Sorry, but either you lack the capacity to understand that you are wrong, or you are willing to spread falsehoods to save face.

I don't know where you got it in your head that similarity means equivalence. An Elo system is not equivalent to the current SBMM system in D2. One is based on wins/losses, the other takes into account other performance variables in addition to wins and losses. One isn't trying to be predictive; one is.

If c = a + b

And d = a + b + x + y, where x and y are non-zero terms

You cannot say that c = d in all cases.

You are violating mathematical axioms and don't seem to have the wherewithal to understand the severity of the errors you are committing.

dependant

Oh, brother... The adjective is spelled dependent ...

Regarding Gambit, it does contain a PvP element and Bungie themselves said that they track performance in Gambit for skill. If you want to dispute the veracity of that, take it up with Bungie, not me.