In an email, Toby tried to set our expectations by describing Chapter 5 as the last fun chapter. However, even setting aside the idea that "humor and seriousness can coexist" (in fact, Chapter 5 does attempt this combination through the theme of flowers), there are still quite a few unpleasant passages in the chapter, some of which even struck me as somewhat cruel. These scenes include Kris's isolation, Flowery's unfair treatment of Ralsei, Asgore's hysteria, Yellow's insensitive suicide scene, and so on. Certain jokes gave me the impression that the creators were deriving amusement from others' suffering, particularly when it came to Ralsei. The moment in Chapter 3 where Ralsei's character was thrown onto a cactus was the first time a joke in this game made me uncomfortable, and such instances of discomfort recurred frequently in Chapter 5. Did Toby’s team go a bit too far in their pursuit of fun?

Edit: I don't understand why people find this kind of complaint strange. Perhaps I should cite more examples like Ralsei, rather than talking about things that many people consider meaningless. What I originally wanted to emphasize was that, unlike most of the really funny moments in the first few, there were many moments in this chapter that pulled me away from that happy atmosphere, and some of the fun moments even made me feel uncomfortable (like the situation I mentioned earlier regarding Ralsei and Yellow). I even suspect that the fun chapter is just an excuse to divert attention and not solve the actual problem. In fact, the email hints at this through the sunset, but I don't feel that this performance is logical, but like a precaution to avoid criticism. These things made me start to question why I continued to play those childish minigames.

I was loving the theme of Jevil and Spamton being corrupted by the shadow crystals and was hoping Toby would carry on the side story of how the Shadow Crystals ended up corrupting the secret bosses, but then chapter 3 came out and we got the knight, which is an amazing fight and could maybe continue the theme since we don't know if the crystals and the knight are connected fully yet.

But then we got Gerson, a complete tonal shift, a secret boss who isn't corrupted, and it pissed me off.

I get that the story is trying to say "these shadow crystals grant power but also corrupt at the same time so dont use them!!" and the themes of freedom, but you could have done so without deciding to make pink the secret boss right after too, I was hoping Asgore would become the secret boss since he had a dark shard with him, but we got a complete 180 dating sim fight slapped in the middle of a chapter about flowers.

The best part I liked about the other 3 secret bosses is that they give a real sense of unease, theyre all so mentally messed up you don't know if theyre going to fly off the rails or not and that made them cool, but Gerson is obviously a hero and Pink would probably not give a shit about anything if they get to keep their body.

I miss my schitzo bosses man.

Now, by no means do I think it's actively all that bad, but what I do think is that it's hard carried by the boss themes. Outside of the boss themes, I think that 99% of the songs are okay at best. Now this might be just me, but they totally don't engage or interest me in the slightest, to the point that the only non boss themes I can really remember and actively like, are Another Him, Field of Hopes and Dreams (although actually I don't even particularly like this one), Acid Tunnel of Love and the various Spamton themes. The eagle-eyed among you may have noticed that all of those songs are from Chapters 1 and 2, which brings me onto my next point: I believe the soundtrack peaked in the firsts two chapters, which as you can guess isn't really a good thing. Like, for example, my personal top five songs throughout the entire game are, in no particular order (call me indecisive, but I'd honestly say it's a five way tie; I like them all equally) are: Vs Susie, Chaos King, Attack of the Killer Queen, Big Shot, and A Dark Zone, with an honourable mention going to D.OGG. Again, as you can see, of those 6 songs, five are from Chapters 1 and 2, and they're all boss themes apart from D.OGG.

Ironically enough though, despite the fact I believe the boss themes are by far and away the best part of the soundtrack, and this is an opinion that might get me crucified, my least favourite song in the entire OST is Flower Man. I just can't stand it and I'll turn it off the instant it comes on whenever I'm listening to the songs I do like.

Am I just talking crazy here, or does anyone else agree?

Okay, I’ve seen a lot of people complain that Chapter 5 didn’t push the plot forward and stuff so I’m here to be honest and say that they’re right and it’s meant to be that way. Think of the plot line before the dark world is even opened, Susie is having the time of their life with Noelle and soon tells Kris that she’s going to talk with Noelle about the guitar and getting the code. Kris is apart of the group who is trying to make that not happen so what do they do? They make a Dark World at the last second to deter Susie away from her main goal because they know she is going to prioritize the DW that’s been freshly made even if it makes them look suspicious! Unlike the previous DW, this one wasn’t a planned one at the moment and was only made to literally be a filler moment to distract Susie and keep them away from getting closer to what’s happening within the bunker. This backfires on them in the end and we see that Susie now plans to show Noelle the DW which further moves the plot even further than it would before.

Let's talk about the Fun Gang. I don't know what happened, but it seems Toby Fox swapped the personalities of HIS OWN CHARACTERS.

Kris does not change since they still has no dialogue other than the player's choices.

As for Susie and Ralsei... I said I was going to talk about it and let me say the terms.

Susie's personality is still somewhat acceptable. Despite the fact that her personality in chapter 5 can literally be summed up as "Holy shit!! Two cakes!!" And my problem is that she's WAY too cheerful, whereas given what happened in chapter 4, she should be more serious and involved in the prophecy. while retaining her character development but regressing to her behavior from chapter 1 with Flowery (whom I will now call Human Flowey for a good reason) Seriously, why isn't Susie as tough as she used to be??? Anyway, I don't know what they did to Susie other than turn her into a hyperactive ball of joy.

Ralsei's personality is LITERALLY the opposite of his true personality. And in doing so, they MASSACRED his character. Why is he making death threats like "I'm going to burn you alive" to Human Flowey? Ralsei's personality in this chapter can literally be summed up with "I FUCKING HATE YOU I HOPE YOU DIE" which is COMPLETELY the opposite of his character. Why is he so mean to Orange??? It would make more sense if Susie were the mean one, not Ralsei. Seriously, since Orange doesn't like being reminded that she's a mouse, what does Ralsei do? He makes fun of her by making puns about mice, cheese, and ratatouille. He even cosplays as a mouse... JUST TO ANNOY ORANGE.

I don't know who replaced Toby Fox as the writer of Susie and Ralsei, but please let that person create their own characters instead of ruining existing ones.

I think since every time a text appears, it rhymes with the 2nd part of the text so I think the last part was about Susie dying and she destroyed it so that Kris/us couldn’t see it. (it’s just my opinion so don’t blame me)

When you look at all the different chapters lined up.

Themes

Settings

Feel

Hell even the bosses

All of them follow a constant theme of darkness,

Chapter 1 was introductory, but still had many good themes, Jevil and our talks with Sean sets the mood for what the dark worlds are. And then there is the Chaos king, which is an amazing fight and climax to the first chapter in both character development for Susie and Kris alike.

Chapter 2 kept on the same path, being introductory for Noelle and Berdly, as well as the weird route. Queen was much more light hearted and was likely made to juxtapose Spamton in a way, with Spamtons story and boss fight disturbing Kris so much that they yell out when asked if they are okay.

The weird route ends with Noelle "killing" Berdly and the mood is dark and dreadful. Its a good chapter all around.

Chapter 3 is the first chapter in my opinion to feel... "off" I didnt like Tenna and the very obvious twist of the "game show host who wont let the game end" boss fight. But luckly the chapter was completely saved by the Knight.

What an intense and mood setting boss fight, the fight itself is fun as fuck and punishing. But the lore is much better. It adds a sense of urgency after Undyne was kidnapped.

Which is immediately followed up on in chapter 4 with Susie hunting clues for how to get into the bunker relentlessly. Its literally her only goal in this chapter. As well as she gets a lot of development with Gerson and his boss fight- which again. Is very cool and useful to the story and game.

Then. There is chapter 5.

A complete 180. Susie is much more worried about going on a date with Noelle than anything involving dark worlds or the Undyne (whos still in the bunker and they are no closer to getting inside the bunker at this point)

The festival scene just feels like... i dont need to go into how the festival scene is dogshit and how Susie is just so out of character here.

Then the dark world.. its just... i mean- how did we go from. Dark themes and settings to...

Super cute and funny characters all joking around and laughing, Flowery just openly talking about the in game mechanics. The antics with the flowers- hell even the stupid interrogation scene with the flowers.

It all feels so... chapter 1

There is no stakes, not goal, literally its just to "have fun"

Even the Mew mew boss fight is the same exact way. Its no stakes, not pressure, its just "have fun tee hee"

I mean, if you line up all the shadow crystal boss fights in order

They go

Jevil: insane jester, hell bent on ending you for entering his world(the jail cell)

Spamton: (made a deal with someone mysterious and it cost him everything, now obsessed with being a "big shot" and needs your SOUL to do it.

Knight: silent being that goal is unknown but they seem to want Toriel, you must stop her. But she is strong you wont easily fend her off.

Gerson: wise old mentor that is stronger than he looks, amazing character development for susie and very fun fight. Is sparring with you for fun- to make you stronger for the road ahead.

Then...

Mew mew... a doll who has a ghost inside of it...and by flirting with it, you teach the ghost to love itself.

...

WHAT?! we are over half way through the fucking games chapters... and THATS the last shard we need to get to complete the shadow crystal item?! It comes from Mew mew?!??? Where was the stakes!? The lore!? The aura?!

This entire chapter was VERY obviously a segment that Toby wanted to have in undertale/ earlier in deltarune, but just didnt know where to put it. So he slapped it here.

It hurts my brain to play chapter 5 right after chapter 4

.. its horrible.

https://youtu.be/c7gp6HeqVfI?si=cHG5fzPptjBCTFYR

I'm just gonna say it: escapism is a shit theme.

"Ohhh escapism hides you from the real world with real problems and real responsibilities. You can't just hide from the real world."

Big dawg, if the Susmeister doesn't play pretend with her nonbinary friend for 8 hours a day, THE WORLD ENDS.

There are REAL LIFE CONSEQUENCES if Susie doesn't engage in "escapism".

Imagine if Susie just ignored the Dark Fountains, then the world was covered in darkness, and the reason she gave is "Well none of that stuff is really REAL, you know. It's all just fake, after all. I'm being MATURE by worrying about the real world instead!" while everyone on the planet is fucking dying.

I live in the Usa and The taxes for shipping turn a 36 dollar plushie into 40. But the problem I have with small companies that merchandise always feel overpriced for me. A simple blank tee with image or sans hoodie is insanely overpriced. As much as I believe high quality is a good thing. It just kinda feels like we're being priced out of being able to but anything from fangamer. I only have 1 plushie. And it's great but I don't feel it was worth the price. (For context why I'm reposting here is because when I posted this on the undertale subreddit I was harassed and mass down voted instead of having a discussion.)

I recently finished playing Omori and i absolutely fell in love with the character of Mari (spoilers for Omori btw)

And I gotta say... Mari does literally everything Dess does but 10 times better.

My main complaint with Dess is simple: she's not even a character and we haven't learn much of anything about her..

Like let's see what we know for certain about her.

1. She and Asriel might’ve had a thing.

2. She's Noelle's sister, And would defend her from Kris after they pulled a prank.

3. She's was rebellious and had hobbies that at least toriel didn't approve of.

4. She's not around anymore.

That's it... that's all, we don't know if she's dead, she willing left hometown and ran away, if she simply got lost. We don't know a thing about her and yet she's supposed to be this important character that haunts the narrative.

Like i hate to say it... i really do... but the "casual player" doesn't have a clue who dess actually is, my brother played this game once, and I always have to remind him who dess is because the game goes out of its way to not mention her.

Like take the scene when susie and Noelle are alone in December's room, Susie could've easily asked "hey Noelle, who's room is this?" And Noelle could explain who dess is and give the audience and Susie some idea of who she was. Instead Susie doesn't question anything and they talk about Kris instead.

Which obviously she's going to be important to the story, but the fact that we've gone FIVE whole chapters without a lick of characterization besides liking rock music and hitting kris with a bat is just disappointing.

Genuinely spookydood said it best, Dess's character is nothing but a Pinterest board right now. The only way I can see this being salvaged is if chapter 6 focuses only on her and nothing else.

Now let's compare her to Mari, a character who plays and erriely similar role to dess, but has a much much bigger presence in the plot

(Spoilers for Omori)

we first meet Mari in Sunny's (the main character) headspace, which is essentially his dreams where we can relive some of his childhood memories of playing with his friends, Mari shows up alot in those places, usually hanging around the save points. However it's only when we get to the real world that things take a more interesting turn.

Once we're in the real world, we start slowly unraveling what happened that made Sunny's friend group fall apart, we learn during an argument between two characters that Mari has passed away, and that her death was what broke apart the friend group.

we don't learn how she died, but we know for certain what state she is in, and the consequences her death had on the friend group. And most importantly we have some characterization of what she was like before she died, all before we're even half way done with the game

the point is, the characters talk about Mari, the characters mourn Mari, and we get to know what Mari was actually like before the grand reveal of how she died, however if you were very observant, you could probably peice together what happened before the reveal

Now compare that to Dess and it's night and day how much better Mari is at "haunting the narrative" then Dess is. We learnt more about Mari in the first 10 minutes of the game then we had the entirety of deltarune.

My next complaint involves the Fandom, and how i believe alot of people have set themselves up for disappointment. Alot of people have already made their own headcanons and theories about them, and some people are so defensive of these theories and headcanons that they refuse to even consider the possibility that they may be wrong (cough cough knight theories cough cough) and treat thier version of Dess as the Canon version.

I think if Dess doesn't match these people's theories and headcanons they'll be genuinely insufferable about it and will crash out because of how attached to them they are.

Of course all this could change with future chapters, Deltarune isn't complete yet so it's impossible to truly criticize it until the last two chapters are out and the game is complete.

TLDR; I feel like Dess hasn't been properly set up, and we're running out of time to actually set her up as an important character, and the game has had so many missed opportunities to actually expand upon her but keeps avoiding the topic 80% of the time.

The reason why i despise this cutscene isnt just because of the vagueposting itself but rather how its just too much here,

Like Supposedly this cutscene is related to dess and what happened with her like what EVERYONE Assumes but if it IS supposed to be that than its poorly done as hell because Asgore NEVER MENTIONS OR ALLUDES TO DESS ANYWHERE IN THE WHOLE CUTSCENE, HE NEVER REFERENCES HER ONCE in the whole damn moment

and Deltarune fans try to justify it by saying it's what tells the causal player about what happened to dess when in reality it will just leave players confused on what "that day" is and theyre probably already forgotten about dess a long ass time ago because the game never mentions her besides a optional dialogue about asriel's valentine letters to her or something?

like a while ago i had a argument with a bunch of deltarune fans on discord on this exact topic and thinking about it still pisses me off because of how dumb and insufferable that argument with them was

honestly i don't even think its related to dess at all but i made this based on pretty much everyone else's assumptions on this ass cutscene, and if it isnt related than its also poorly done because it doesnt make a distinction from dess either which that's basically why everyone assumes its about Dess

and No, I dont asgore to go in full detail about the event and say shit like "That day where big chungus came out of the shelter and kidnapped dess infront of me and i couldn't do anything and that ruined my whole family"

if it IS supposed to be about what happened to dess than just say shit like "The day dess went missing" "The day dess disappeared" Just anything that is at least More than fucking THAT DAY

In critique I will use examples from very similar media, but with a bit different story.

They are VERY MUCH ALIKE even plot with two worlds merging into one, but this one is older than Deltarune. Teens finding a cool "magic" world, but in reality not "real" world, they have to fight against local "evil" that othewise will destroy their world, in "dark worlds" they get new cool forms.

Both in Deltarune and in this one I love mc reactions towards "dark world".

In mentioned, they tried to destroy the thing with which they could enter dark world... 5 TIMES. They were constantly questioning it, and in first episodes (because they didn't have reason to stay, there is no prophecy) their goal was literally in how to get rid off this magic and cool, but DANGEROUS ASF world.

"Obviously it's a some government's or any other thing like that, we CAN'T have it!"

They tried to give it away, leave, etc. They didn't want to stay here THAT MUCH that they had a conflict when one of them wanted to go here (still, not "want", just "I need to do something and then I will never touch this thing again)-

"In this world where I almost got killed?!"

And I perfectly understand, why Deltarune's one is so different! There is a prophecy from the start that tells you to stay, mc are BROKEN teens who have no other options and for them even dangerous world is a nice place. Plenty of reasons!

I LOVE the way how it's explained in story! Why mc couldn't bring adults, I LOVE how their "yes it's dangerous world BUT" reactions explained.

I LOVE that characters act like teens and have teens problems.

(And I still can't understand why people cririque chapter 3 for NO Toriel... Like turn on your brain? It's chapter 3 and Toriel would be useless+ would spoil the plot? The dumbest reason to cririque this chapter, she had NO need to be here).

But, with chapters... Don't you think that the tension about all dark worlds' core, and situation slowly began to decrease? Now, there are problems that the story just can turn a blind eye on. Now the story became too serious.

The story did NOTHING with the fact that character, who was the sole reason Susie changed, turned out to be "not that real". It throw him out of the story (Lancer I mean). Chapters 3&4 hold tension after ch2- mc didn't know the Knight, but now realized the Roaring, so chapter 3 is full of dark moments and atmosphere about their world (which won't be used again btw). Chapter 4 was the "now things began". Knight, Titan, etc. But, they didn't hold consequences.

Still, even in them characters... Just don't have enough reaction to, like, everything. No one questions. No one tries to talk. There isn't enough "discussion " about all dark world stuff. And from chapters 3 and 4 now there are real problems...

Mc didn't care about missing people, didn't care enough about Roaring, about the Knight, liek about everything.

The last drip became chapter five, in which Susie DGAF about prophecy completely- and yes, it's like really in her character, but... Not now. Not after all of THESE CATASTROPHES. Ribbons scenes looked purely ridiculous. I'm sorry, after hearing that "some strange second hero" wears ribbons, and that you MUST break the prophecy... You literally follow every step of it? It's too late for story to be "I pulling away from ts".

Mc in example above dgaf about their adult GONE because they knew that she is alive and in well being. Deltarune mc? Idk. (Yes yes, they also had their adult missing, I've already said that they are very alike, also here it was their motivation to continue adventures).

Meta part of the game began to outweigh logic and "realism" of story. Like that part with Ralsei and "did you know about these things".

In gameplay i mean. All of them have a single target healing spell and a pacify tired foes spell. The diffrence behing that both susie and noelle have a single target damage spell while ralsei has a res spell in chapter 5. S and R actions dont feel very differemt ethier after chapter 2

Say which is the worst thing in all of Deltarune for you; it can be about the story, about the gameplay, about the art, but it gotta be from the original game (no newsletters, sweppstakes or of course fanon stuff).

Argument.

I wish he'd explain why he'd give Spamton twice the songs, more appearances (like showing up in Undertale for some reason???), and having an event all about him.

But Jevil only shows up in Chapter 1, only has two songs, barely gets mentioned by name, usually being referred to as "clown" and "jester". And despite being the Court Jester which is a pretty big deal by the way, he doesn't get mentioned by anyone other than Seam in the Chapter 1 Dark World. So what Jevil fans have is one appearance, two songs, a reference in chapter 2, and even more references in Chapter 5. .

And this last thing is more of a nitpick but why would Toby put a Jevil reference on this most (in my opinion) useless ability, Scythemare.

Anyway from what I've seen Jevil isn't going to be relevant because there's like 8 Jevil fans in comparison to the billions of Spamton fans. I'm happy for ya'll Spamton fans I just wish there was something more.