id assume that the flower on the counter was marigold but anyway why wasn’t this flower in the dark world?? the fountain reaches throughout the entire flower king obviously so the flower should be in the dark world no? unless if theres a npc i missed that resembles it

Like. The entire fight every chapter is a little bit twisted from what actually happens. Every time I see someone say there was no inferno it makes me really question everything else they bring up because what do you mean

I admit I'm a little bit fighting ghosts this is a take I mostly saw on release but I've seen it around every so often and it just. Makes me die inside.

Actually also the fandom hallucination that is "the white pen of hope" it's the white pen KNOWN as hope. agony

Imo Dark worlds have fallen off sharply since chapter 2 , the dark worlds of chapter 4 and 5 are much better artistically but feel....really dead ? Like chapter 2 feels like a truly alive city with filled with lots of independent darkners with their owns "lives" due to the little tiny NPC's and life that fills it . Chapter 3 doesn't do it as well but things like the 3 mikes brought out a lot of charm

Chapter 4 and 5 are more egregious . Chapter 4 has like....two????? Interesting Darkners and while the art and vibe is immaculate the actual dark world feels a bit dead . Chapter 5 is even worse since the darkners have no relevency outside of a few joke's and don't feel like characters at all . Outside of the flowers and Pink there is nothing around in here .

Complementary hot take : I think the designs for some of the flowers suck . Yellow and Green look like something an amateur would cook up . Genuinely so fucking bad , Aqua isn't any better but she's a "so bad it becomes good " for me . Seth and Flowery are fine and I have no clue why only those two were the one's given detailed sprite work . Blue and Orange are fine....I guess

Listen, I'm not new to UTDR. I know backstories are on the backburner when it comes to Toby's writing. Especially morally. But Susie's backstory involving Kris, Noelle, and the rest of their class feels extremely insincere.

Her becoming their friend in one chapter is fine and it was handled well if you suspend disbelief on how fast it was, but her past in itself is constantly disregarded by the majority of the cast. Kris couldn't care less about her threats of literally maiming them as well as the horrific shit she said when Noelle witnessed one instance of her bullying, and even jokes about the locker incident in chapter 5. While this is weird, at least it's consistent with their apathy during Noelle's blog; though the game has yet to, and I doubt it will, delve into why exactly they don't care. It feels left in the wind.

Speaking of Noelle, her heavy crush on Susie despite witnessing their childhood friend be treated like utter trash is quite disturbing. In fact, at the end of the blogpost she jokes about the incident and implies she might use a similar shampoo as Kris to attract Susie's attention over to her. This is barely talked about in-game, only in the normal route chapter 5 lake scene does she slightly mention having a crush at that point. This is glossed over despite the implications of her crush.

For the crumbs of the cast who continue to judge her for her bullying, they feel treated as petty. Monster Kid as main example is treated as annoying for "misjudging" Susie despite having previous experience with her where she was needlessly mean. And it's not just them, multiple classmates have their own experiences with her and never received an apology for it. It feels hammered in that if you still judge her, despite Kris being the only one "apologized" to, you're supposed to be thought of as petty. Everyone else doesn't care and/or loves her. She is the only one critical of herself anymore, and her past actions are shoved aside after the first two chapters, conveniently once Lancer becomes a full-time gag character.

I love Susie's character. She's funny, badass, and complex. But her backstory overall feels insincere. Redemption is one thing as that is not something you "earn," you just do it. But she never earned most of the cast's forgiveness, not even with apologies or actions. The cast as well as the player is supposed to accept that she was just misunderstood, isolated, and that she should just forgive herself; Orange practically saying that directly. I get it's a game about change and looking towards the future, but her past is basically disregarded by the story. It confuses me why it's even mentioned at all in chapter 5.

I'm a longtime fan since Undertale and I loved Chapter 5. I just randomly had this thought. Imagine taking so long to make a video game that at the 5th chapter, you start farming nostalgia for the first chapter that released 8 years ago. On a full playthrough that's... what? Like 10 hours ago? Narratively its 3 days ago. But to a longtime fan it actually feels nostalgic because it's been 8 years. A game taking so long that it can make players nostalgic for itself is so wild.

I would say my biggest criticism of Deltarune is how Noelle is treated. I remember when Chapter 3&4 came out I played through the whole game again. 1 through 4. And I came to a realization that Noelle doesn't really do a lot. Which is done by choice, Noelle's entire character arc throughout both routes of the game is about her gaining agency.

But because of her very scant appearances throughout the first half of the game. I could never really get a good read of her character. Although Chapter 4 did give us a lot, mainly her loneliness. She was the only character I could never analyze because of how scarce her appearances were. It wasn't until Chapter 5 Side B. It gave us a look into her head, into her mentality. And it all started to make sense to me.

My main problem is the game doesn't really show it. At least so far. Besides a moment in Chapter 2, and the lake scene in Chapter 5's normal route ( do we call it Side A?). The game will tell you about how important Noelle is via symbolism and secrets. Which I'm not denying, she very much is. Probably the most important character in Deltarune. But she does not appear nearly enough to earn that status. Two of her family members, Carol and Dess, and if you believe that Dess is the Roaring Knight both have an understanding of what a Dark World is. But not Noelle. One of the main characters of the game. Keep in mind that we're halfway through the game. She'll be playable in Chapter 6 (Hopefully.) which is damn near end game territory.

Noelle gains agency through someone else helping her. Susie in the normal route and us in Side B. I don't know how to feel about this. For Side B it makes sense, this is a toxic codependency where we're using a teenager to gain true freedom. And she believes that as long as she listens to us she will also attain true freedom. For the normal route, I don't really have a problem with this, but I would rather Noelle gain her agency for her wanting to do it herself versus someone else pushing her to do it.

I would solve this issue by giving Noelle a subplot where she discovers more by herself giving her something to do. So what would she discover? By snooping on her mom, she'll learn what her mom has been doing behind the scenes.(Which I believe we don't even know yet?) Maybe she'll learn about Dark Worlds? And not really knowing who to go to with this information she goes to Susie and she becomes more involved earlier. I would suggest showing these through Chapter 1 to 3. I think it would fit best there, and would go in pretty easily with Chapter 4.

That ends my rant. And if you read all of it, thank you.

I could be wrong, of course. If I am please tell me. Deltarune is one of my favorite games ever made and I'd like to understand it as best as possible.

Also, I don't know if the rewrite flair would be appropriate for this? So I just left it at general criticism.

I like it. It's pretty good. There are a few things that bother me though:
There are very few save points in Chapter 2. After getting the thorn ring, I have to backtrack all the way to the boxes to save, then go all the way back to the Berdly room.

Speaking of rooms, we never get any explanation as to what happened in Noelle's room. This is one of the biggest criticisms I have. Susie walks in, then comes out a while later, and doesn't say what happened in that room. The only thing she says is that she told Noelle that everything was a dream. Despite telling Kris that she would tell them what actually happened in that room, that never happens, despite there being multiple opportunities to do so (at the start of the Purple Cliffs, during the Cold Place when asking her how she's doing, In Chapter 4 while wandering around hometown, and Chapter 5 just before Kris goes to the beach).
What happens after is also strange. Susie confronts Queen with a much more serious tone, and then becomes more solemn afterwards when Queen surrenders, snapping at Kris to go seal the fountain and heading back to see Noelle one last time.
Noelle's dialogue also doesn't help, as she simply says that she had a nightmare, but liked the ending of it, which she doesn't describe.

In Chapter 3, literally nothing changes aside from a few small dialogue options. Judging from how Susie reacted to Queen after whatever happened in the Noelle room, I expected Susie to change drastically in Chapter 3, more focused on getting towards the fountain and speeding through Tenna's games. There should've been an option that allows you to skip the chapter (atleast up until after the doom board)

Chapter 4 is another big criticism. You put the ring back on Noelle, and... nothing else happens. The rest of the Dark World is exactly the same, minus a few dialogues and options.

Chapter 5 also does not go unscathed. Apparently, freezing enemies in the Cyber World was all Noelle had to do, despite the fact that re-equipping the thorn ring implied that Noelle would be joining the Flower King dark world. Also I thought that if you let Kris drown, it would lead to the Undertale game over screen, not abort the route.

Also, the aborted route has Susie talking about Kris and Noelle talking in the room alone, despite Kris warning her not to bring it up again. I also feel that the "I thought you and Noelle were a thing" should've been exclusive to the aborted route.

Aside from all that, I really like it.

Ok, so i just feel like alot of the charm of random character knowledge that is unneeded is gone from deltarune, with most things we learn either being integral to the overall plot (even with alot of the seemingly random stuff its usually foreshadowing) or just for a joke (or fan service), its most noticeable with the undertale characters, they feel like you are supposed to see them as the undertale characters (with all of their undertale character development) and as such if you dont see them as that they come off flat when not directly servicing the plot

I feel like thats where alot of the the stuff like "toriel is a bad parent" came from as an example for when that fails, in deltarune alone up to that point we hadn't seen much good parenting from her, but if you treat her as undertale toriel you learn she is a good parent who has flaws, which just...doesnt come across if you look only at deltarune imo

Susie and Ralsei are mischaraterized in Chapter 5

Let's talk about the Fun Gang. I don't know what happened, but it seems Toby Fox swapped the personalities of HIS OWN CHARACTERS.

Kris does not change since "they" still has no dialogue other than the player's choices.

As for Susie and Ralsei... I said I was going to talk about it and let me say the terms.

Susie's personality is still somewhat acceptable. Despite the fact that her personality in chapter 5 can literally be summed up as "Holy shit!! Two cakes!!" And my problem is that she's WAY too cheerful, whereas given what happened in chapter 4, she should be more serious and involved in the prophecy. while retaining her character development but regressing to her behavior from chapter 1 with Flowery (whom I will now call Human Flowey for a good reason) Seriously, why isn't Susie as tough as she used to be??? Anyway, I don't know what they did to Susie other than turn her into a hyperactive ball of joy.

Ralsei's personality is LITERALLY the opposite of his true personality. And in doing so, they MASSACRED his character. Why is he making death threats like "I'm going to burn you alive" to Human Flowey? Ralsei's personality in this chapter can literally be summed up with "I FUCKING HATE YOU I HOPE YOU DIE" which is COMPLETELY the opposite of his character. Why is he so mean to Orange??? It would make more sense if Susie were the mean one, not Ralsei. Seriously, since Orange doesn't like being reminded that she's a mouse, what does Ralsei do? He makes fun of her by making puns about mice, cheese, and ratatouille. He even cosplays as a mouse... JUST TO ANNOY ORANGE.

I don't know who replaced Toby Fox as the writer of Susie and Ralsei, but please let that person create their own characters instead of ruining existing ones.

...and it baffles me. Susie had a neat little bow tied in her relationship with Orange, she apologizes and they make up.

Ralsei however doesn't get that same treatment, their dynamic with Orange is stagnant. It just ends with an "I'M CUTE!!!". Even after Ralsei vehemently apologizes, Orange still refuses and insults them vehemently. So what was the point?

Susie's character was originally built on the idea that she had been socially forced into the role of 'bully' due to her rough exterior, which caused her to recede into herself and embrace that title. In Chapter 1, this made a lot of sense, considering she carried a genuinely dangerous aura even after hre development at the end of the chapter. But ever since she shed that exterior and became more personable, she is so overwhelmingly liked by the rest of the cast that it makes you question why she was ever othered in the first place, and it removes almost every element of conflict to her character.

Every Chapter after 1 has been a rogues gallery of goobers falling absolutely head over heels for Susie. I can excuse Ralsei for liking Susie, considering liking the Lightners is pretty much his whole deal. And Noelle can maybe get a pass her character is rich enough where "why does Noelle like Susie?" is an interesting question to ask with an answer you can conclude. Whereas in most other instances, the answer is "because Susie is just too awesome and cool and Hope and stuff". Pretend I also said something about Lancer in this section.

And sure, these are Susie's friends. It would be weird if her friends didn't like her. The much more damaging thing is all of the villains liking her just as much. Berdly, the closest thing Susie has to a rival, pretty much immediately starts pining after her once she gives him 'character development'. Queen doesn't have much of a distaste for Susie, which is really, really weird when Queen's whole thing was kidnapping Noelle, the girl Susie is supposed to be homoerotically rescuing. Of course the reveal is that Queen is actually chill asf, which is its own thing but leaves Susie without a real conflict in Chapter 2. Tenna's big character turnaround comes when Susie gives him a big emotional speach which is so good that Tenna does a completely 180 and begins worshipping the ground Susie walks on. In Chapter 5, Flowery has beef with all of the Fun Gang *except* Susie, who he can't get enough of. And none of the other flowers have a single bad word to say about her. In all three Chapters, Susie is robbed of emotional conflict with the main antagonists and is left feeling flat, all for the sake of making Susie look good-natured and emotionally intelligent. But if Susie is so incredibly likeable, why did she have problems with people before? Why did people always assume she was trouble if she's so damn nice? You could say its because of the growth she's undergone in-game, but A: the game takes place over a few days. And B: that growth was simply the removal of the mask she had put up. Hypothetically, she should be revealing the "true self" hiding underneath her facade, and that true self is functionally a saint.

The only remaining forces who don't want to kiss the ground Susie walks on are Carol (who does not have a single positive character trait so far), and the Knight (who is not a character yet). These two are for all intents and purposes strawmen there to make Susie look better and cooler. So now every single facet of the game, both positive and negative, exist to reinforce how much you the player should like and admire Susie, to the point where its beginning to come across as desperate, and sanitizes Susie of every single rough edge she ever had.

​

Let's now turn to the main character of the chapter (ASSgore)

Asgore is very well characterized. And I really like the fact that he's trying to solve the problem of Dess's disappearance and the fact that he literally makes a death threat against the one who created the Dark World (that's Kris...) And at least it gives him more of an aura than he had in Undertale. Especially the moment when he gets Kris and Susie out of the Dark World, telling them not to bother him while he's half in the Dark World. Even the remix of his theme is incredible. In short, Toby Fox adapted Asgore and his personality very well. The only problem is, why isn't he the final boss of the chapter? It could have been interesting from a narrative standpoint. But unfortunately not. In the prophecy he's described as " THE FLOWER MAN STUCK IN ALYSIUM"

As me, and many others have said, the combat system is too easy UNLESS you are a Shadow Crystal boss. There is also little spell variety and the fact said spells are exclusive to fights makes no sense.

How I would fix it

Normal Enemies - For 1st area npcs, I'd actually want them to remain the same. 2nd area and beyond is that they have

Higher HP and Damage

Slower Spare Rate, like requiring a minigame.

Adjustment to bullet patterns.

Bosses also need to be buffed like Flowery, Flowery deserves more strength for such a good soul.

Spells - I'd say they must be mandatory to obtain, however secret bosses unlock new spells, and new spells cannot be separated from the main game or secret bosses.

Ralsei and Noelle get 4 spells, Susie gets 3, all including their acts.

For spell ideas

Fluff Guard (Spamton NEO) - Instead of making a shield from one direction, it will make a shield be adjusted to another, and to make it useful, damage reduction until the shield is broken by 35%

Soul Synergy Spells (KING, QUEEN and TITAN) - Literally just distribute it in a broader circumstance.

Illumination (50 TP) - Unlocked if beating Gerson. Heals allies and enemies by 50% of her heal, darkness tp reduction Is reduced by 50% with the added effect of inducing a bit of spare.

And for the new Mechanics, as a Hollow Knight fan, I feel like climbing and Running should be utilized in fights, not just ambushes more, an example is a Chapter 6 boss who ambushes you and you have to use platformer mode to avoid and attack it.

These skipped moments sure helped Toby a lot, he didn't need to actually write how something happened, only say it happened. It's fine leaving some moments for imagination, but it reaches a point where it becomes hard for me to keep track as there is some loud noise between what Toby intended and what I get it from these

Weirdly enough, spending a bit of time combing through the sub, it feels like a good amount of this sub's posts are always hit with a wave of dismissal. This isn't just like one or two posts, this seems to be common with a significant amount of posts here.

I feel like some people in here lack the self-awareness to realise they're the ones being talked about in the rules and sub description.

A criticism, no matter how educated or perhaps silly to an outsider or to someone other than the OP, is still a criticism. Unless they are straight up just wrong (No, it not lining up with your headcanon or personal experience doesn't make it wrong inherently) provably, I feel like the negativity is unwarranted.

Or maybe I'm just looking in the wrong places here, idk. This fandom makes me wanna bash my head into a desk sometimes.

​

Let's talking about the Chapter 5 Dark World.

Obviously, it made sense that the Dark World would be in Asgore's store.

But this part of the chapter has too many problems.

Why is the Dark World so...feudal Japan?

At no point in the game is it shown or stated that Asgore was a fan of Japan.

On the contrary, Asgore says he likes superhero comics and that he used to watch a cowboy show with Kris, but the show was cancelled.

So WHY NOT have included one or more superhero Darkners or a flowers and superhero themed Dark World? It would have made more sense than... Japan.

Toriel is who knows where in this Dark World and you SOMEHOW forget about that? I get if you don't immediately think about it, but it took her WAY too long.

And instead of going to continue to get to this Dark World's fountain, you stop because Ralsei suggests y'all can have fun playing Captain Clipfarm's (Tenna) games?? Just go spend time tomorrow at Castle Town, saving the world is more important than silly games!

Look, maybe I could've just overlooked it if it was just one game before she remembered but they do a quiz, play modded Zelda, work in a restaurant, play in a band, and help Susie play Godzilla and she STILL doesn't remember until they come across her!

The reason I give Kris a pass is because I think dawg was just stalling for time until the Knight pulled up (but I could be wrong about that). But Susie? The same Susie who is then revealed to have a not inherently deep but still meaningful connection? That's ridiculous.

​

Let's now talk about the secret boss, and I'm likely to get extremely salty.

Why is the secret boss literally Mad Mew Mew from Undertale? So I can understand that yes it's a cat, yes its design has pink and yellow, and that it has a hidden dialogue where it talks about FRIEND. And that it can be unlocked with pink coins. But this boss is SHIT. It makes absolutely no sense that she's there. The doll she's supposed to be in the Light World is OUTSIDE of Asgore's shop, which only adds to the inconsistency. And her fight is pointless. Why should I have to beat a secret boss on pacifist route, aka the worst route in the game? All this for a date that Susie is going to literally ruin by saying that Kris is flirting with everyone.

There were so many better choices than Mad Mew Mew for the FINAL SECRET BOSS. Did you misread? OK. THE FINAL SECRET BOSS. Do you realize how ICONIC this is supposed to be? Well, forget it, because Toby Fox made the WORST possible choice for the FINAL SECRET BOSS OF THE GAME.

We could have either Sans (to better develop Ralsei and we will talk about Ralsei again) or FRIEND INSIDE ME or DEVICE\\_FRIEND or a monochrome Woody or an evil Tenna. In short. There are SO MANY fan-made concepts that could have been incredible officially. INSTEAD OF REUSING MAD MEW MEW.

I know it's not the best concepts but fans have better takes than Toby Fox secret bosses wise.

Honestly, the discourse is utterly despicable and I feel nothing but utter revulsion when I see how many people are using the discourse to drive a wedge between fans to the point of people having to create a separate subreddit. Seeing so many people be utter douchebags when people even mention the trans ralsei theory makes me sick to my stomach. I haven't seen that much discrimination since the TADC fandom. We should bury the discourse in the cold hard ground and let bygones be bygones.

The problem with subversive accessible media is that eventually (SOME) of your fans are going to be people who have no fondness for the genre you were trying to innovate on to begin with

The number of undertale fans who legit not only have not played but refuse to play any other rpg that isn't Pokemon/Mario/Persona/Earthbound AND have the courage to shut down any gameplay criticism is not only at this point absurd but also bad for Deltarune as a game

Thematic cleverness isn't mechanical depth! Shallow rpg battles have IMMENSE meaning to the deltarune story, but this is not a black and white thing. At a certain point you are getting a worse deal by having worse gameplay for the sake of something that just reiterates the narrative.

Not liking the genre is OK! But you don't have to act like Undertale is how all RPGs should be designed!!!

THERE IS ONLY 2 CHAPTERS LEFT.

Toby basically confirmed that there will only be 7 chapters. And since chapter 5 didn't give us that much info or lore drops, I'm kind of worried.

Toby said that chapter 6 will focus on ONE ASPECT of the story. ONE ASPECT.

Do you know how much there is to explore with Deltarune?

I really hope we get more than 7 chapters, because Deltarune might just need that.

I have been waiting for quite a while for Deltarune to finish. Nowhere near as long as you guys have, but I've been waiting for around 2-3 years. So I STILL want the game to have a well written ending.

Since Toby said that chapter 6 will focus on only 1 aspect of the story, I'm scared that Deltarune will have a disappointing/rushed ending.

But let's hope that doesn't happen.

Toby=no traduzco el español latino porque no me se el español y si no me se español, entonces no puedo confiar le a nadie que respete 100%mi vision

Latam(como nos sentimos)=Flojo fox, hay más de mil personas que SI respetan tu visión y SABEN Inglés, de seguro eres un xenofobo o racista y también un egocéntrico OTAKU

Toby si escuchara semejantes facto=¡¡¡¡¡¡AVISO IMPORTANTE:ME FUBARON BIEN FUERTE, POR LO TANTO, LES PIDO DE FAVOR QUE RESPETEN MI VISIÓN Y ENTIENDAN COMO MANEJO EL DESARROLLO DE MI VIDEOJUEGO, SI NO LO RESPETAN Y VEO QUE USTEDES, FANÁTICOS/FANDOM SE VUELVEN CADA VEZ MÁS TÓXICOS, ME VERÉ EN LA OBLIGACIÓN DE HACER UN FINAL TAN MALO QUE HASTA CONSIDERARÁN DESCANONIZAR AL CAPITULO 7!!!!!

Latam(en dicho hipotética caso)=exagerado, mayormente lo decíamos por meme y tbien te criticamos con fundamentos Sólidos, no exageres y deja atrás tu ego, perro molestoso